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Can The A321 Do West Coast To Hawaii  
User currently offlineGlobalDreams From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 43 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 16084 times:

I realize there would need to be ETOPS (180?) certification involved, but does the A321 have the range to handle a full load upstairs and down from the West Coast to Hawaii?

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 16062 times:

Airbus lists the range of the A321 at 3000nm, and LAX-HNL is about 2300nm. With an ETOPS certification the A321 could likely make the east bound leg, however with winds, the west bound flight could potentially run into payload restrictions. The 757 is much better equipped to handle such a flight.

In theory it could be done, but I am not sure how profitable it would be given the possibility of payload restrictions.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30867 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 16055 times:
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Depends on how you define "full-load".

With 185 passengers, range is around 3000nm with either the 89t or 94t TOW.

At maximum structural payload, range is around 2400nm for the 89t TOW and 2800nm at 94t.

Great Circle Mapper shows LAX/SFO/SEA to HNL in the 2100-2300nm range, so it's doable with pax+bags both ways and certainly with cargo eastbound.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7409 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 16001 times:

LAX-HNL = 2556 mi

SFO-HNL = 2399 mi.

Spanair & MyTravel are using their A321 on HEL-LPA (2920 mi) or BGO-TFS (2450 mi).
Spanair's 212 seats A321 are HGW versions that have a 93 ton Max take-off weight (and 2 additional fuel tanks) compared to the 89 tons version that most other carriers in Europe have.

So the answer to your question does the A321 have the range to handle a full load upstairs and down from the West Coast to Hawaii? is : YES they do.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15904 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
With 185 passengers, range is around 3000nm with either the 89t or 94t TOW.

At maximum structural payload, range is around 2400nm for the 89t TOW and 2800nm at 94t.

At equal payload, both the 89t and 93.5t version are supposed to have the same range, but I assume this is due to fuel volume limitations. Install one or two ACTs and the 93.5t version will perform much better
And the range at max.structural payload figures you provide seem to be a bit off.

The 89t version can take its max. structural payload about 1900nm, while the 93.5t version achieves ~2200nm, but carrying about two additional tonnes.

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/docu...rbus_Technical_Data/AC/AC_A321.pdf (pages 47 and 48)


A342



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineJHM01 From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15895 times:

Is the A321 ETOPS certified?

User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5381 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15860 times:



Quoting JHM01 (Reply 5):
Is the A321 ETOPS certified?

The type is, like all current mainline twins. Each operator and each individual frame need to be as well.


User currently offlineTFFIP From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15843 times:

IKA/LHR is 2381 nm and is operated by BD on a 321 - of course over land almost all the way but such a distance is being done on a 321. What's the longest other A321 nonstop in schedule service?

User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8998 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15713 times:



Quoting GlobalDreams (Thread starter):
I realize there would need to be ETOPS (180?) certification involved, but does the A321 have the range to handle a full load upstairs and down from the West Coast to Hawaii?

The answer is yes or no, it will depend on the actual airframe.

I doubt an early build A321 could do it, but a current build I would think could. IAE and CFM both came out with reduced fuel burns in their engines in the last 12 months or so as well.

Quoting JHM01 (Reply 5):
Is the A321 ETOPS certified?

No not certified, but "FAA Approved" to 180 minutes

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...releases_items/06_05_09_etops.html



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7409 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15692 times:



Quoting TFFIP (Reply 7):
What's the longest other A321 nonstop in schedule service?

KUO-LPA is 2691 nm (Spanair A321 - KUO = Kuopio, Finland - LPA = Gran Canaria, Spain)
Probably one of the longest if not THE longest.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15692 times:



Quoting TFFIP (Reply 7):
IKA/LHR is 2381 nm and is operated by BD on a 321 - of course over land almost all the way but such a distance is being done on a 321.

I believe their 321s used on those routes have supplementary fuel tanks.

Also have to keep in mind that there are many possible alterntates on those routes, unlike West Coast-Hawaii. And winds are often more severe on the Pacific. WestJet, which uses the 737NG between YVR and 3 points in Hawaii, has been known to make occasional westbound fuel stops at SFO.


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4938 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12992 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
WestJet, which uses the 737NG between YVR and 3 points in Hawaii, has been known to make occasional westbound fuel stops at SFO.

Assume they use the 737-800 on these routes. At max passenger load it barely makes 3000nm.
Just looking at a current wind chart for FL34 between the mainland and Hawaii, it shows winds virtually from due west and anywhere from 45 to 50K. This translates into about a ESAD of 2500nm from LAX.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 12815 times:

Why are aren't the U.S.air carriers using the Airbus to HNL from the mainland if the A321 can do the hop?


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineEdelag From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11913 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Why are aren't the U.S.air carriers using the Airbus to HNL from the mainland if the A321 can do the hop?

When you come to think of it, most aircraft flying from U.S. Mainland to Hawaii are Boeing.

Three years ago, I flew roundtrip LAX-HNL, times came close to 6 hours 30 minutes of flying time, if I recall correctly.



It's not just the destination, it's the journey.
User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3190 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11833 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Why are aren't the U.S.air carriers using the Airbus to HNL from the mainland if the A321 can do the hop?

Well, there is only one US carrier that operates the A321 and serves Hawaii, US Airways. They'd be doing it from PHX and LAS, both of which are a bit further than LAX and SFO. Plus, HNL has been a west destination since it started, and the west side of the airline just started getting A321s.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21502 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11747 times:

It may be because the west bound flight would need to be canceled under certain conditions or severely restricted as it would not have the minimum ETOPS180 fuel remaining should an engine fail just after "1/2 way" for many of the A321s already in service at US (not the newest, longest range versions).

Maximum over land range and ETOPS180 range are not the same thing. The A321 may be ETOPS180 certified, but does anyone in the world use it on ETOPS180 routes?

It's why I'm surprised that the 739ER can be used by CO from LAX to HNL without extra tanks (and why it probably can't be used from OGG, though I could be wrong).



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5495 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11295 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Why are aren't the U.S.air carriers using the Airbus to HNL from the mainland if the A321 can do the hop?

IINM, US is the only US carrier flying the A321, other than a few frames at Spirit. That being the case, we can really only discuss why they choose not to. For them, the A321's I believe have been used to displace 757's on some routes where the 757's capabilities are not being fully realized. These aircraft can then be moved to routes needing more range/payload than the A321 would be able to provide. This might include US-Europe and mainland-Hawaii. In the latter case, I believe US flies out of PHX and maybe LAS. These airports would further test the capabilities of the A321, making the use of the 757 almost mandatory.

That's how I see it, anyhow.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11216 times:

What about the A320 then since the only A321 operator is US? US has pondered the idea of using the A320 for HNL runs, but that never happened and went with the 752's instead, which were HP's birds.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5381 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11148 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
US has pondered the idea of using the A320 for HNL runs, but that never happened and went with the 752's instead, which were HP's birds.

Airbus has just announced a 1 t MTOW increase for new-production A320s (and, IIRC, fairly recent examples as well). That ought to help with both Hawaii and long winter transcons.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11120 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 18):

I was talking about the CURRENT A320's HP had during the merger.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5495 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10914 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I was talking about the CURRENT A320's HP had during the merger.

I think it is because the 757's are available to many of the US carriers, and that aircraft is simply more capable on the mainland-Hawaii runs than their smaller narrowbody counterparts. I know that the 737's have been used more - look at your friends at Alaska - but the carriers flying the A32X series seem to have plenty of 757's to handle the chore......for now. I.e. UA/NW/US.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10440 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
LAX-HNL = 2556 mi

SFO-HNL = 2399 mi.

How is it that SFO is less miles than LAX?



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21502 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10404 times:



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21):
How is it that SFO is less miles than LAX?

Because it is. SFO is also closer to SYD.

AKL is about the equal vector. Anything west of the line drawn from the midpoint of LAX and SFO to AKL is closer to SFO, anything east is closer to LAX.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10380 times:



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21):
How is it that SFO is less miles than LAX?

SFO is quite a bit more west of LAX - keep in mind that Reno, Nevada is further west than Los Angeles - Northern California goes quite a bit out into the Pacific compared to SoCal.


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9643 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 18):
Airbus has just announced a 1 t MTOW increase for new-production A320s

Will this apply for the whole A320 family? So the A321 will benefit from this as well?

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 21):
How is it that SFO is less miles than LAX?

If you look at a world map you will see that the North American continent is a bit V shaped. So even if SFO north of LAX it's more to the west as well. You will also see around Santa Barbara the coast line points almost directly south.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
25 LongHauler : I used to fly the A321 a lot from YYZ to SFO. (1963 nm.) With a full load of passengers, (at the time 166), an OAK alternate, one ACT and MTOW of 93,0
26 Ikramerica : The newer A321 has longer legs though. Since you said you "used to" fly it, that would mean you were flying a lower MTOW version than is available no
27 Zeke : 93t was one of the early WV (001) for the 321-200, current build is 93.5 (011), and they are also lighter with more efficient engine. The leg is more
28 AirGabon : Don't forget Air Ivoire A321 non-stop flight from Abidjan to Marseille and Bordeaux then continuing to ORY, and even in the past non-stop to Paris OR
29 Mercure1 : FWIW, the newest US A321s are the V2533-A5 powered A321-231, w/ 93.5t MTOW and fuel volume of 7791 gallons. The earlier models are the CFM powered bir
30 BMED : I always think its been a shame that airbus could never get the A321 to met the specs of the B757. Would have been great if airbus could have got the
31 LongHauler : That answers a question about which I have often wondered. How the heck some airlines get such range out of their A321s! 500 Kgs of fuel wont get you
32 SeaBosDca : Not that I know of -- although, as Zeke noted, there have already been significant MTOW increases for the A321. The A321 is wing limited at this poin
33 Zeke : 93t was one of the early WV for the 321-200 (WV001), current build is 93.5 (WV011), and they are also lighter with a more efficient engine. As I said
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