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Why No Mainline Service Between LAX & SAN  
User currently offlineGlobalDreams From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 43 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7260 times:

I realize it is a very short distance, but why is there no mainline service between LAX and SAN. I was surprised to discover that WN doesn't even operate this route. Is it simply to short to efficiently operate mainline jets?

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7242 times:

Simply put people dont really fly LAX-SAN to get between the two cities, its majority all connection flow.

Frequent prop/RJ service tends to work good to provide this connectivity into the larger networks operated by the likes of AA and UA and international partners out of LAX.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19212 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7233 times:



Quoting GlobalDreams (Thread starter):


I realize it is a very short distance, but why is there no mainline service between LAX and SAN. I was surprised to discover that WN doesn't even operate this route. Is it simply to short to efficiently operate mainline jets?

Why on earth would you?! It's a quick trip by car (perhaps 3 hours with traffic), there's trains, and there's no O&D - it's based on connections.

Let's hope you don't become an airline network planner.  Wink



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7184 times:

And LAX - SAN is not special. There are other similar metro pairs in the US including CHI-MKE, NYC-PHL.

These cities are all simply too close to make it appealing for locals to hop on a plane when it can be done quicker and cheaper by other means.

No offense to San Diegoans, however in many ways they are a distant LA suburb as the lines continue to blur into one big megapolis.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3813 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7181 times:

Interestingly enough, PSA used to fly that route with mainline. Wasn't PSA 182 a SMF-LAX-SAN routing?

In these economic times though (and with increased airport check-in times now due to security and other isues) it really doesn't make sense.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6559 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7157 times:

I'd venture to say that Amtrak's Pacific Surfliner service is the easiest way to get between L.A and S.D. Sure beats the traffic on the highway, that's for sure.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7159 times:



Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 4):
Interestingly enough, PSA used to fly that route with mainline. Wasn't PSA 182 a SMF-LAX-SAN routing?

Such thru flights were common back in the day. Delta had L-1011s, UA even had a 747 as part of a Hawaii flight.

However none were run for the benefit of locals to get between the cities. Now with more efficient RJ/prop equipment being available its obviously resorted to such lower cost option.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGlobalDreams From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7145 times:

I should have phrased my question better. I noticed that both United Express and American Eagle each offer up to 15 flights a day between these city pairs. Would it be uneconomical to run 7 or 8 737 or Airbuses versus 15 regional jets. It's not a question about O&D between the two cities but rather the economics of flying 15 RJ's vs 8 mainline jets.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7106 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 5):
I'd venture to say that Amtrak's Pacific Surfliner service is the easiest way to get between L.A and S.D. Sure beats the traffic on the highway, that's for sure.

Actualy cant see it being that good. You still have to get to/from the stations on both ends, have 10 (yes 10) stops between downtown LA and SD, with a travel time of about 2:45.

All the times I drive down to SD, I can make it in the 2:20-2:30 region door to door in average traffic. Wost case ever I dont think its taken more then a bit over 3 hours for the trip.

Quoting GlobalDreams (Reply 7):
I should have phrased my question better. I noticed that both United Express and American Eagle each offer up to 15 flights a day between these city pairs. Would it be uneconomical to run 7 or 8 737 or Airbuses versus 15 regional jets. It's not a question about O&D between the two cities but rather the economics of flying 15 RJ's vs 8 mainline jets.

8 mainline jets would offer much reduced connection opportunities while having 3-4X the amount of seats to sell per flight.

The 30-50 seat frequent RJ/prop service works very good as they offer all day long complimentary connections and are not a large burdon of seats to try to fill.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7100 times:



Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 4):
Interestingly enough, PSA used to fly that route with mainline. Wasn't PSA 182 a SMF-LAX-SAN routing?

Yes it was. We just studied this incident in my CRM class last week, and apparently, some people deplaned in LAX while other enplaned in LAX, en route to SAN.


User currently offlineC767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7088 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
No offense to San Diegoans, however in many ways they are a distant LA suburb as the lines continue to blur into one big megapolis.

That is why Camp Pendleton is there…to keep the separation.  Wink SD is not LA.

Quoting GlobalDreams (Reply 7):
I should have phrased my question better. I noticed that both United Express and American Eagle each offer up to 15 flights a day between these city pairs. Would it be uneconomical to run 7 or 8 737 or Airbuses versus 15 regional jets. It's not a question about O&D between the two cities but rather the economics of flying 15 RJ's vs 8 mainline jets.

All about frequency and I guess how economical it is. I have read on here that when Eagle switched from the Saab to all ERJ’s they went backwards, since the Saab was more efficient on the route.

I think it is important for those who fly the route to have the flexibility of going almost every hour. Having 7 or 8 mainline aircraft on the route would mean longer connections in LAX, which would kind of defeat the purpose of the flight. I know there are days that many of the flights are completely full.


User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4942 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7059 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):

Such thru flights were common back in the day. Delta had L-1011s, UA even had a 747 as part of a Hawaii flight.

Ahhhh. The halcyon days of widebody service on LAX-SAN that I never got to experience... Also, let me just add- BCal when it started its first service to SAN flew an LGW-LAX-SAN routing with a 742.

I'm pretty sure there weren't local traffic rights, but its still significant.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7059 times:



Quoting C767P (Reply 10):
That is why Camp Pendleton is there...to keep the separation. SD is not LA.

Give it some time a huge SoCal megapolis will appear.

I still remember as late as the 1980s when OC was not considered part of the Los Angeles MSA, and now it. In 2006 Census bureau moved and reclassified Riverside, San Bernardino and Ventura counties into a greater Los Angeles Combined Statistical Area (CSA).
Now this CSA blob sits at the border of San Diego, so I'd say its only a matter of time until the whole area including San Diego gets merged into one yet even bigger single region.
(besides geography we are socio-economically very tied into each other anyhow)

Quoting San747 (Reply 11):
Ahhhh. The halcyon days of widebody service on LAX-SAN that I never got to experience...

Don't worry was not much to experience really. It could take longer to board on each end then the flight time.

Today hop on an RJ, and 5minutes later you are on the way for the 15-20 minute flight while you'd still be at the gate boarding that widebody in the olden days.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMfricke From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

I actually flew two different mainline flights from SAN to LAX in the 1980's. In 1985, I flew a TWA L-1011 from SAN to LAX. That flight continued on to London. A different time, I flew a Muse Air MD-80 on the same route. That flight continued on to a Muse Air Texas destination, but I do not remember which one.

Other airlines flew that route mainline, including Midwest Express, as part of an add-on lfight to the MKE-LAX service. In August 2001, I flew ME on an MD-80 from MKE to LAX, and the flight was continuing on to SAN.

In addition to LAX, there used to be mainline service between ONT and SAN in the mid-80's. Delta and Eastern both started service to ONT in spring 1985. Eastern's flights to their Atlanta hub were routed ATL-SAN-ONT and reverse. Delta also served their DFW and ATL hubs from ONT with tag on flights through SAN. I flew from ONT to SAN in 1985 on a Delta 727, that was to continue on to DFW.



ONT - Southern California's Ontario!
User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3192 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6721 times:

United Shuttle also flew the route with 737s in 1999 and 2000, and around that time (not sure of the exact years as I never flew it), Northwest had an A319 or A320 round trip designed to connect with their LAX transpacific flights.

User currently offlineKurt From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6718 times:

Back in 1991 I flew LAX-SAN on AS (It was a MD-80 variant, I believe). This was back in the days when AS was known for its top-notch service, and we were served sparkling wine and smoked almonds in Y. A quick, fun flight.

User currently offlineCX340 From Mexico, joined Sep 2000, 609 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6514 times:

I am positive that UA flew LAX-SAN mainline back in 1998. Took the flight a couple times connecting from MEX. it was an A320 both times.

User currently offlineYtib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6451 times:



Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 14):
United Shuttle also flew the route with 737s in 1999 and 2000, and around that time (not sure of the exact years as I never flew it)

I was on a Shuttle flight in late Sept 2001 between LAX-SAN which I seem to recall was just a continuation of another flight. Given the timeframe there was three of us on the plane but around then is a bad indicator of how many people took that flight normally. I seem to recall it turned to maybe SFO.


User currently offlineTxagkuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6448 times:

~70 local O&D passengers per day. That's 35 each way.

Of course it doesn't help that the average one way fare for that local traffic is about $290.

At 109 miles by air, that is a yield of roughly $2.65 per mile.

Muse carried a lot more local traffic on this route back in the mid 80s, of course they were doing it for $29 each way with an off peak fare of $19.

Even if an airline were to charge $65 (which is still a 60 cent yield) each way, the distances are such that you could not stimulate enough traffic to make it a paying proposition.


User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6274 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Such thru flights were common back in the day. Delta had L-1011s, UA even had a 747 as part of a Hawaii flight.

All the mainline airlines had service from SAN to LAX in the 70s and 80s.

My family regularly flew an AA 707 SAN-LAX-PHL.
UA had a 747-200 SAN-LAX-HNL for a year in the 1980s.
DL had an L1011 SAN-LAX-ATL
National had a SAN-LAX-MSY flight.
I remember in 1983 flying WA SAN-LAX in a 727 connecting to a DC-10 to PVR. I walked out to the ticket area and saw the huge construction for the LAX expansion.
PSA flew LAX-SAN several times a day. My father used it to connect to SAS to Copenhagen.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
No offense to San Diegoans, however in many ways they are a distant LA suburb as the lines continue to blur into one big megapolis.

If San Diego is a suburb of LA, then Philadelphia is a suburb of New York. Phil is actually 30 miles closer to NY than San is to LA.


User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6203 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 19):
My family regularly flew an AA 707 SAN-LAX-PHL.

AA did the same IAD-LAX-SAN

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 19):
UA had a 747-200 SAN-LAX-HNL for a year in the 1980s

My shortest flight in a 747.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 19):
PSA flew LAX-SAN several times a day.

Fare was something like $9, and you paid on-board. 727 service. It was like a shuttle - wonderful!



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5862 times:



Quoting Mfricke (Reply 13):
In addition to LAX, there used to be mainline service between ONT and SAN in the mid-80's. Delta and Eastern both started service to ONT in spring 1985. Eastern's flights to their Atlanta hub were routed ATL-SAN-ONT and reverse. Delta also served their DFW and ATL hubs from ONT with tag on flights through SAN. I flew from ONT to SAN in 1985 on a Delta 727, that was to continue on to DFW.

Delta even used a 767 that routed ATL-ONT-SAN at night and then SAN-ONT-ATL early the next morning. I remember taking my grandma to ONT many times to connect with the 762 as it came in from SAN.

FX1816


User currently offlineSANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 789 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5862 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Mfricke (Reply 13):
there used to be mainline service between ONT and SAN in the mid-80's. Delta and Eastern both started service to ONT in spring 1985. Eastern's flights to their Atlanta hub were routed ATL-SAN-ONT and reverse. Delta also served their DFW and ATL hubs from ONT with tag on flights through SAN.

Yes! I flew on both airlines on their SAN-ONT-ATL routes. Eastern Had their brand new 757's
flying the route.

Quoting Mfricke (Reply 13):
I flew from ONT to SAN in 1985 on a Delta 727, that was to continue on to DFW.

I'm not sure if that DL 727 was an upgrade or downgrade,because I flew on the SAN-ONT-ATL
on Delta during the summer of 1985 and it was a 767. I remember during the SAN-ONT leg,the
pilot would announce that everyone stay in their seats with their seat belts
fastened because it was only a 20 minute flight.

On a side note,I really loved Eastern's 757's with the huge 757 emblazoned on their tails!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



[Edited 2009-05-22 20:51:39]


PSA Gives you a lift!
User currently offline73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 128 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5818 times:

In the late 80's, Pan Am flew several daily mainline flights between LAX and SAN with 737-200's before relegating the route to Dash 7's on the Express side.

User currently offlineAnonymousInSAN From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5565 times:



Quoting FX1816 (Reply 21):
Delta even used a 767 that routed ATL-ONT-SAN at night and then SAN-ONT-ATL early the next morning. I remember taking my grandma to ONT many times to connect with the 762 as it came in from SAN.

Wow, my mom and I took that Delta 767 flight (SAN-ONT) r/t back in 1987. I couldn't remember what airline it was, so thank you so much for this post! It was such a neat flight because it was so short and there were only about 6 other people on board besides us.

Vicky


25 LAXintl : Well we all know that we are kings of urban sprawl here in California. I'll let the census demographers determine things in the coming decades, howev
26 Widgetmd11 : I remember flying on an AA DC10 LAX-SAN in the early 80s.
27 FX1816 : Hey no problem, that's what this place is for FX1816
28 Silver1SWA : And then the Padres can be called the Los Angeles Padres of San Diego...heh.
29 San747 : May I never live to see that happen while I live and breathe.
30 San747 : Let me rephrase that because it won't let it edit my post? May this never happen in my lifetime.
31 FX1816 : Yeah I can't even stand the LA part in the Angels, to me they will ALWAYS be the Anaheim Angels!!! or I guess California Angels too!! FX1816
32 DesertAir : In July of 2001 I flew on a UA 737 between LAX and SAN. I had come from Oakland and was on my way to Tijuana. I recall that the plane had only about 8
33 Goldenshield : I flew the 767 ATL-ONT (which continued to SAN) in 1990. I'm not sure when they discontinued it, but apparently ONT was picking up enough traffic to d
34 Eghansen : I suppose that is possible. Los Angeles CSA stretches to Arizona and Nevada because it includes the entire San Bernardino and Riverside counties. San
35 FX1816 : I don't remember TWA L-1011's but I can say that the latest I remember seeing AA DC-10's at ONT was in 1993. FX1816
36 Kparke777 : More of the same but I can't resist! Mid 70's-Early 80's (LAX-SAN-LAX); AA DC10, WA DC10/707/720/727; DL L1011/DC8-50/60; (LAX-SFO-LAX); UA/PA/TW 747
37 Lincoln : And that's assuming that you're actually trying to go airport to airport. If you're O&Ding and going anywhere but the airports the conveinence of jus
38 TUNisia : With Amtrak you DONT drive ... plus you can kick back, sleep, chat, makes new friends, or have some food and watch the scenery go by instead of deali
39 KGAIflyer : Actually, San Diego County has **both** a north county and a south county airport. The south county airport is Lindbergh Field (SAN) in San Diego cit
40 LAXintl : But why would I? I'd have to drive to/from the stations, and pay parking (or take cabs etc) Wait for the train Longer enroute time due to all the sto
41 Wedgetail737 : After the WA/DL merger, there were more DL flights between SAN and LAX. The one and only time I've flown between SAN-LAX was on a DL 733, connecting t
42 C767P : I am fully aware of CRQ/CLD and the commercial service it has out of the newly opened terminal building. My “joke” about Pendleton was that it is
43 KGAIflyer : Aaaah. From the perspective of someone who visits Orange County frequently, I've always thought that was the OC's job.
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