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Is It Legal Not To Show Safety Demo?  
User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1317 posts, RR: 3
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10224 times:

Hi folks,

I was recently traveling on American Airlines on AA172 from New York/JFK to Brussels, Belgium! This route is flown by an B-757-200. Before takeoff the LCD Video Sceens did not work so no Safety Video was shown.

Is this an Security Issue?

I was seated next to a nervous passengers who went almost insane after they tried to make the Video running several times but nothing but the sound was working. I calmed him down, told him that I work as Cabin Crew, and showed him all necessary info (Emergency Exit Locations, Flotation Devices and Oxygen Mask etc. on the Safety Card). He felt better after he knew me as a Cabin Crew Member (of a different airline though) was seated next to him.

What would the FAA say if they would know that AA is not briefing Pax about Safety on bord? They could have at least done a manual Safety Demo?

What are your thoughts about it?


Fly easyJet
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaptSkibi From United States of America, joined May 2004, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10216 times:

They certainly should have done a "manual" safety demo. It would just like not even having IFE on the airplane, then. It's still required.

I was on a NW A333 from MSP to HNL when the IFE would not work at the beginning of the flight. The FAs simply did the safety demo on their own, using the standard props.



Private Pilot, Airplane Single Engine Land / DL Gold Elite
User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1708 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10211 times:

Safty videos have never been, and never will be, compulsory for airlines to show  Smile

AFAIK, it is an obligation to show safety videos. If not, then a manual demo is required. I am very surprised that passengers were not briefed in any way. This is not acceptable. I recommend that you notify AA or the FAA of this. Better safe than sorry, IMO.


User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2297 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10140 times:

Safety demos *must* be performed prior to takeoff. There is no exception, and yes, it is the law.

If the video portion itself wasn't working, the crew could have done a manual demo using the audio from the video, if that's all that was working. Are you sure they didn't do a manual demo, using the audio from the video? Was there no demo done period, in any language? Usually on JFK-BRU three demos are performed: English, French and Dutch. It is legal, however, to only do English.

Perhaps, if the audio was working, the crew may have assumed the video was working properly, but it would really surprise me if a member of the crew didn't notice, and/or if a passenger didn't say something.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10092 times:

The only exception that I know of is that a safety demo prior departure may be cut short, leaving out the life jackets on condition the flight does not travel near water, or even if it crosses water it may still be left out prior to take-off, but then the JAR-OPS stipulate that it must be demonstrated in flight!

Needless to say I've never seen it being used, can you imagine the reaction of pax if suddenly the crew would start to demonstrate the use of the jackets in flight while overflying water???  Smile


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27327 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10065 times:

I have been on a flew flights over the last year namely BMI and Swiss where the screens were dropped a few times then when they didnt work the Senior instructed crew to do manual safety demo.

I was actually on a flight where they didnt do one and wondered about it . Cant remember what airline it was but it wasnt BD or LX.


User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9929 times:

I believe there are a FEW rare exceptions....(correct me if I am wrong)...

1. Following a diversion or unscheduled landing if no NEW passengers were boarded while the aircraft were on the ground.

2. Following a thru-stop where no NEW passengers were boarded.

In either case the all of the passengers onboard WERE already briefed on the exact same aircraft at the time the flight originated.

As for cutting the demo short, I am not sure what other airline policies are, but at our carrier, if we need to cut the demo short we omit the oxygen mask portion of the demo and are permitted to perform that after take-off but PRIOR to reaching 25,000 feet. This is a very rare thing and I've only had to do it twice.


User currently offlineBramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9910 times:



Quoting CaptSkibi (Reply 1):
They certainly should have done a "manual" safety demo. It would just like not even having IFE on the airplane, then. It's still required

This is the normal procedure.

Quoting N702ML (Reply 6):
I believe there are a FEW rare exceptions....(correct me if I am wrong)...

Sounds correct to the best of my knowledge.


User currently offlineUAORD2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 267 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9861 times:

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 3):
Safety demos *must* be performed prior to takeoff. There is no exception, and yes, it is the law.

FAR 121.571 states that a live or video safety presentation must be made before each takeoff, including through flights and diversions EVEN when no new passengers board.

[Edited 2009-05-25 08:44:06]

User currently offlineMats From Israel, joined Jul 2003, 637 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

I was once on a Pinnacle Airlines flight (Northwest Airlink) from Columbus to Detroit. The flight attendant just completely skipped it. She was too busy talking on her cell phone.

User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9548 times:

I'd report it to 1-866-TELL-FAA, this is a huge safety hazard... Cabin crew always say they want respect as safety professionals but these types of incidents don't exactly help...


My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineJBLUA320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3180 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9443 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

This happened on an Emirates flight I was on from DXB to COK. They skipped the safety demo completely and we just took off out of Dubai without a mention of it!

User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9339 times:



Quoting N702ML (Reply 6):
As for cutting the demo short, I am not sure what other airline policies are, but at our carrier, if we need to cut the demo short we omit the oxygen mask portion of the demo and are permitted to perform that after take-off but PRIOR to reaching 25,000 feet. This is a very rare thing and I've only had to do it twice.

You must work for WN? I jumpseated on them a few weeks ago and this same exact thing occured at MDW. Very short taxi, so the FA's told us they would finish their briefing once airborne. I have never seen that, and thought there was no way that could be legal. Once the 10,000' chime came, they finished their briefing, which was the use of the oxygen mask. After thinking about it, why not? You don't need to use oxygen for takeoff or at a low altitude. The only issue I might have is what if there are fumes shortly after takeoff? Some airlines procedures might have the cockpit crew manually deploy the masks.



FLYi
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9318 times:



Quoting PITrules (Reply 12):
Some airlines procedures might have the cockpit crew manually deploy the masks.

????? No airline I know of does that. The masks in the cabin are diluter masks and take ambient cabin air and mixes it with a small amount of O2 from the pax oxygen system. It is not used nor is it effective with smoke or fumes!


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9238 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 13):
The masks in the cabin are diluter masks and take ambient cabin air and mixes it with a small amount of O2 from the pax oxygen system.

From the A-320 FCOM, vol 1 section 1.35.30, page 1:

"The mask recieves pure oxygen under positive pressure for about 15 minutes, until the generator is exhausted."



FLYi
User currently offline777DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9218 times:



Quoting PITrules (Reply 14):
From the A-320 FCOM, vol 1 section 1.35.30, page 1:

"The mask receives pure oxygen under positive pressure for about 15 minutes, until the generator is exhausted."

true, but the mask itself admits a huge amount of cabin air to mix with the tiny amount of O2 coming down the low pressure plastic hose.

only the flight deck crew masks and regulators can deliver pure O2 ( non-diluted) in the "emergency" config.


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9210 times:



Quoting 777DEN (Reply 15):
true, but the mask itself admits a huge amount of cabin air to mix with the tiny amount of O2 coming down the low pressure plastic hose.

only the flight deck crew masks and regulators can deliver pure O2 ( non-diluted) in the "emergency" config.

 checkmark  for what it's worth.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9183 times:

Quoting 777DEN (Reply 15):
true, but the mask itself admits a huge amount of cabin air to mix with the tiny amount of O2 coming down the low pressure plastic hose.

Yes, it gets diluted at the mask itself, they are flimsy and don't provide a tight seal. But in the case of fumes, the passengers are breathing that air anyway without the mask. Why not consider giving them what little fresh air is available via the mask?

[Edited 2009-05-25 14:10:53]


FLYi
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9168 times:



Quoting PITrules (Reply 14):
"The mask recieves pure oxygen under positive pressure for about 15 minutes, until the generator is exhausted."

Absolutely true. However, if you look at the pax O2 mask you will see it has a mixer valve and takes ambient air from the cabin and mixes it with the O2. It does not provide pure O2 like the masks in the cockpit do.

I have looked through the 744 and 320 QRHs and neither has a step to deploy the cabin masks. Like I said, I know of no QRH that has the cabin masks deployed.

In fact, one of the briefing items the cabin crew makes is to point out the bags will not inflate because cabin air is mixed into the O2 supply.


User currently offlineIBERIA747 From Spain, joined Aug 2003, 1831 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9132 times:

A few years ago I was onboard a KLM 744 departing MEX on its way to AMS.

They played the safety video a bit late and it was still playing when the aircraft started its takeoff roll.

Just as the pilot applied takeoff power, the video was interrupted and it didn't continue.



¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
User currently offline777klm From China, joined Apr 2005, 532 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9098 times:



Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 19):

They played the safety video a bit late and it was still playing when the aircraft started its takeoff roll.

Had the same experience onboard an Air China flight from PEK to PVG. They continued showing the video however, even during takeoff.



Next flight: AMS-PEK
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9067 times:



Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 19):

They played the safety video a bit late and it was still playing when the aircraft started its takeoff roll.



Quoting 777klm (Reply 20):
Had the same experience onboard an Air China flight from PEK to PVG. They continued showing the video however, even during takeoff.

Had this happen on AA. It's not legal, either, at least for a US carrier.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJoseKMLB From United States of America, joined May 2008, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9030 times:

What ever happened to the days without the LCD screens when they had no problem of doing a demo for everyone. That shows how lazy people are today and why there should be no shortcuts. What if there was an emergency on your flight(thank god there was not) and no safety demo was done just think of the lawsuit AA would be in because people did not know where the exits where or someone in an exit row did not want to help. I don't know but just seems to me that there should always be a demo done other than the videos.

That is just my thoughts on that.

JH


User currently offlineSandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9029 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I was on an Air Malta flight about two months ago and on the departure from MAN there was no safety demonstration, video or announcement.

Not good.

Sandyb123



Member of the mile high club
User currently offlineAloha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2372 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9013 times:

At HA we had a few situations of 763s with INOP video systems or videos which hadn't been approved by the FAA yet. A Manual Demo was always done with the 1st F/A reading and the other 7 "demonstrating." On 763 overwater flights we had the pleasure of "donning" the life vests and walking thru the cabin....the yellow vests looked GREAT with our purple uniforms  Smile

Also, on the 717 if the pre-recorded announcement was INOP 1 F/A would read it while the other 2 "acted" it out.

I have never been on a flight where a demo was NOT done. We were trained it was an absolute must!

I was crew on a 717 flight that returned to the gate for a mechanical after the demo was done, 1 new passenger boarded before we left again and we had to re-do the demo as a result.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
25 TDubJFK : If you;re smelling fumes and oxygen masks drop in front of you, do you really need a briefing to tell you what to do with it?
26 PITrules : Do I need a briefing on how to use a seat belt? I'd like to think I don't, but the FAA thinks otherwise. I don't see why briefing how to use of an ox
27 JoseKMLB : I remember we pushed out an DL MD-88 and the FAs did there demo but the plane came back to the gate for a few secs for a short MTC then when we pushe
28 Longhornmaniac : Yeah, that is definitely no bueno. I was on an AA 777 from ORD-DFW, and the video wasn't working, so they did a "live show," as I heard it called. Che
29 SirSheldon : I flew WS from YOW to YEG a couple years back, and we had to make a stop in YQT due to a passenger requiring medical attention. Even though no one had
30 FuturePilot16 : I think there could be legal drawbacks if the videos did not work, if say some greedy person was in a plane crash and was almost killed. If there was
31 USAirALB : Wow, they do a pre-recorded one on the 717? Is the 3rd FA just too lazy to read?? At US, you'll only see the video on flights to HI, the ETOPS 757 PH
32 N702ML : Actually, my friend, yes I do....and according to our inflight manual...."Finish the briefing minus the oxygen demonstration, which must be done afte
33 PITrules : Thanks N702ML; no, I'm not a not a WN guy, I'm with UPS on 'the other side' of the field. BTW, I love your website, I hope you keep it going.
34 Falstaff : EWRcabincrew once told me that when CO used to fly between the two Houston airports they did not have to do the O2 mask info because the flight never
35 Aloha73g : When the recording is working all 3 F/As demo... #1 at Row 1 for First Class #2 at Row 16 for rear of Coach Cabin #3 at Row 4 for forward Coach Cabin
36 M11Stephen : Anyone who is ever on one of these "no demo" flights should report it to the FAA and the airline as soon as possible. The cabin crew might as well say
37 Cubsrule : This is a really interesting point, actually. The reason that FAs can do this is that 121.571, the general safety briefing FAR does not cover briefin
38 B777fan : As reported by many already, a briefing is mandatory. What is interesting is that goes for all aviation, not just commercial. When I fly a friend on a
39 N702ML : Regardless, PITrules, I appreciate the feedback on my site. Really...I do. I also LOVE your airport. It is a shame that when you leave our gates you
40 Mats : The Pinnacle flight was more than a year ago, so it would be too late to bother reporting the incident to the government. As I recall, Pinnacle didn't
41 Fbgdavidson : No, it isn't. I'm surprised by the number of people who claim to have been on flights where there was no safety demo. Maybe if it were on aircraft wh
42 Post contains links Cptspeaking : VX shows their safety video on the IFE, but the in-flight team members (their version of flight attendants) are also giving the demonstration. It's ne
43 Delta777Jet : Hi guys, I finally got an answer from AA and they are sorry that no Safety Video was shown as the LCD were inop! And they are looking forward for my f
44 AAMDanny : We showed our Safety on Board (SoB) Video before every departure without fail. Or Manual. Last week We had to do a Manual Demo for 6 passengers that w
45 Airbuster : I had it twice in 1 week on Egyptair...no mentioning of it no nothing...and a few months later they passed the IOSA audit...........
46 AAMDanny : Is that some sort of automated response message? That's terrible! Or has AA employed some dimwit to respond to Customer Comment's. If your letter got
47 ThirtyEcho : I am an old codger who has been flying on airliners for 57 years and I NEVER flew on one flight where a safety demo was not done. Back in the DC-3 da
48 Burkhard : Maybe the laws in the UAE are more relaxed? I prefer the manual demonstration anyways, and people do give attention to them - not to videos.
49 IAirAllie : I've worked for several air carriers on many aircraft types. Never have I heard of the cabin O2 mask been approved for use in a fumes situation. It w
50 JOEYCAPPS : With all due respect, yes. Not all people are seasoned travellers like we may be. Some might not know to pull down on the cord to begin oxygen flow.
51 Cubsrule : ...but not all aircraft have life vests, either, and 121.571 requires that their use be demonstrated if the aircraft is so equipped.
52 IAirAllie : If you continued reading that far you would have seen the following. (C) If the flight involves operations above 12,000 MSL, the normal and emergency
53 Cubsrule : As far as the vests are concerned, you are correct since it says "required" and not "installed." AFAIK, though, no airline changes its safety demonst
54 IAirAllie : You are wrong about that. AA did when I worked there, in the pilot briefing they would say overwater or non overwater operations and then we would do
55 Cubsrule : I don't believe that they have two videos, though-- and I don't believe they have any non-video-equipped overwater birds these days (FWIW, there aren
56 ItalianFlyer : Yea, there is no excuse for any of these 'no demo' horror stories. The FAA & JAA are pretty explicit and my airline gives us the leeway to hold off on
57 LJ : I wondered the same after my CUN-PTY flight on Copa last year.... On the return the only thing they did in English was how to buckle your seatbelt...
58 M11Stephen : No, they don't have two videos. Some airlines in their live demos tell about the seat cushion and then say, "A life vest is also located under your s
59 Post contains links N6168E : This reminds me of when I was a station agent in SLK. In Feb 1975, the Deaf Olympics were being held in Lake Placid http://www.deaflympics.com/games/i
60 Goldenshield : There's an exemption to that, just like many other things in part 121. The carrier just needs to apply and have it approved by the Certificate oversi
61 Jhooper : Here's another example of one of the many things that the Captain of the flight has nothing to do with personally (i.e. giving the safety briefing), b
62 Prebennorholm : Incidentally I was on a 752 with another carrier just yesterday. The two nearest screens in the roof didn't work, so in case I wanted to watch the sa
63 M11Stephen : So you think the pax should turn a blind eye to this huge safety hazard and do nothing about it? Sorry, but that's one of the responsibilities you ha
64 Prebennorholm : Easy, easy. Those safety demos are designed to relax people who are afraid of flying. To make them imagine that in case of disaster they can do somet
65 M11Stephen : 90% of accidents are survivable and in those accidents its been proven time and time again that paying attention to the safety demo and reading the s
66 Prebennorholm : Who are those ignorant people? But it is a fact that if you want to suvice for instance a ditching, then you better do it in a totally calm river in
67 SkyGirl : I remember a topic similar to this a few months back, something about a screen not working and whether this was a legal scenario. Out of curiousity I
68 IAirAllie : Most ditchings occur close to land as many airports are constructed by water and many are survivable. Perhaps the regulations are meant more for thes
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