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American's STL Hub  
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2285 posts, RR: 3
Posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10234 times:

Anything new going on with AA at STL? I am still somewhat surprised they are down to about 100 flights a day, with no service to the likes of TPA and RSW anymore. What does the future hold for the AA hub at STL? It seemed that before oil spiked it was running pretty good with around 160-200 daily flights. Would we ever see it grow again to that size? Could STL ever see a LHR flight once AA/BA/IB get ati? Never thought I would say that but it would be nice to see it get back to the size it was after the 2003 cutbacks. Personally I would like to see it banked a little more, I like bypassing ORD when travelling AA.

136 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10209 times:

Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2073 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10140 times:

You will never, and I mean never, see St. Louis get a sniff while the current AA management regime is still in place.

Much of this has to do with:
1. The state of the economy and air travel
2. The stance American has taken regarding capacity reductions
3. The relative strength of other alternatives (O'Hare & Dallas)
4. St. Louis high operating costs & terminal drawbacks

Perhaps when the economy rebounds we'll see another carrier make additions in St. Louis, but waiting for American to add anything to St. Louis is like waiting for the Cubs to do something meaningful in the playoffs.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Thread starter):
Could STL ever see a LHR flight once AA/BA/IB get ati?

Until the City grows a sack and puts together a Portland-esque incentives program, you don't need to worry about that, either.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3618 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10082 times:

STL isn't doing well as far as volume of AA operations go. I was shocked to see RSW get the pull - TW flew that route 4x/daily in season and AA was flying it 2x/daily in season as recently as last year. Allthough, RSW isn't a big AA station. As far as mainline goes, there aren't too many more routes to slash. LGA, LAX, SFO, BOS, MIA, ORD and DFW aren't going anywhere. SEA seems to be doing well as does DCA. I wouldn't rule out frequency cuts to DFW or ORD. I frequently fly the later evening STL-ORD flights and they typically go out half empty and almost completely empty in F.

As far as a LON flight goes - not a chance in hell unless the state of MO and the city of STL get their collective heads out of their asses and put together an attractive bid. That doesn't seem to be a priority of either at the moment.



PHX based
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7574 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10045 times:



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 2):
Until the City grows a sack and puts together a Portland-esque incentives program, you don't need to worry about that, either.

Agreed. If AA is willing to do a Revenue Guarentee on a flight from RDU to LHR, they would definately pay attention if STL or the State of Missouri ponied up some money.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 3):
As far as mainline goes, there aren't too many more routes to slash. LGA, LAX, SFO, BOS, MIA, ORD and DFW aren't going anywhere. SEA seems to be doing well as does DCA.

AA seems to be relatively pleased with those routes from STL. You definately wont see STL-LAX/DFW/MIA/ORD/LGA cut. SFO and SEA do well enough that AA will probably keep them around.

As far as growth is concerned, I wouldnt look for too much of it. AA doesnt like taking risks for one reason or another. AA will only fly routes that they know are gold mines on an international level. And if that route shows otherwise, it will be cut fast.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineGothamSpotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10001 times:



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 2):
4. St. Louis high operating costs...

Do you mean airport rent and landing fees or labor costs? I would think labor would be cheaper in STL simply because it is cheaper to live there than in the Chicago area.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9786 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
You definately wont see STL-LAX/DFW/MIA/ORD/LGA cut. SFO and SEA do well enough that AA will probably keep them around.

In my opinion the West Coast routes are ripe for the picking. If AirTran, JetBlue, Alaska or Virgin America wanted to they could take AA's lunch money on those flights.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 3):
As far as a LON flight goes - not a chance in hell unless the state of MO and the city of STL get their collective heads out of their asses and put together an attractive bid.

The lack of a flight to London is due to AA (and maybe BA) and not the lack of a market in my opinion. The St. Louis area is home to Scottrade, Wachovia Securities, and Edward Jones (financial companies) plus Monsanto, and the now European owned A-B. Boeing IDS also contributes some transatlantic traffic as well. Really, I think that STL could fill a 767 4-5 times a week.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRIPCORDD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1160 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9698 times:

Labor is not cheaper in STL most of the work groups are union and get the same wages system wide.

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7574 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9606 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
If AirTran, JetBlue, Alaska or Virgin America wanted to they could take AA's lunch money on those flights.

Southwest couldnt. If I remember correctly AA and WN had a small battle over STL-LAX, and AA came out on top with WN no longer flying it.

One of the few battles AA came out on top over WN.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9494 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
Southwest couldnt. If I remember correctly AA and WN had a small battle over STL-LAX, and AA came out on top with WN no longer flying it.

 checkmark  I think it's a bit of an aberration, though. LAX is easily AA's strongest west-coast station. I suspect SEA is pretty safe because of Boeing, but competition on SFO or SAN (where WN is probably stronger than AA) would be interesting.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Really, I think that STL could fill a 767 4-5 times a week.

Agreed. If the 752 had a bit more range, STL-LHR might be a good candidate for 75A service. I do think that STL has a shot at getting LHR service after BA-AA ATI is approved. One tool that AA can use is the flights to smaller citites. If AA is flying 30 PDEW OKC-LHR, for instance, they could easily retime a OKC-STL flight to give those people a convenient connection over STL.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3618 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9342 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
The lack of a flight to London is due to AA (and maybe BA) and not the lack of a market in my opinion. The St. Louis area is home to Scottrade, Wachovia Securities, and Edward Jones (financial companies) plus Monsanto, and the now European owned A-B. Boeing IDS also contributes some transatlantic traffic as well. Really, I think that STL could fill a 767 4-5 times a week.

While that may be true - I just don't see AA undertaking this route without some kind of revenue guarantee. The STL-LGW route underperformed in the post takeover-pre drawdown days in '01-'03, so I really wonder whether STL has the market for such a route. Especially when you take into consideration that ORD is 250 miles away with 5-6 daily LHR flights, and DFW is only 550 miles away with 2-3 daily flights as well - the proximity of AA's two biggest hubs hurts the case for STL.



PHX based
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9315 times:



Quoting 777STL (Reply 10):
The STL-LGW route underperformed in the post takeover-pre drawdown days in '01-'03, so I really wonder whether STL has the market for such a route.

I think that there is a market, and I would think that being able to have the flight at Heathrow instead of Gatwick would help.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 10):
Especially when you take into consideration that ORD is 250 miles away with 5-6 daily LHR flights, and DFW is only 550 miles away with 2-3 daily flights as well - the proximity of AA's two biggest hubs hurts the case for STL.

Perhaps, but Chicago-London is a highly competitive route. Also, businesspeople in particular have been shown to be willing to pay more for a nonstop flight.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
Southwest couldnt.

Service counts too. Boeing regularly sends its employees to both SoCal and Seattle. I know that Boeing's people don't particularly like sitting for 4 hours in the middle seat of a 757. I'd bet that anyone willing to provide good service on the route could take on AA and win in the current climate.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDanielb From Canada, joined May 2009, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9263 times:

.......I would of thought that a city the size of St Louis could easily fill a 767 most days!! YEG Can do that daily, so why couldn't St.Louis?? What is the metro population of St Louis anyways??.....anybody know??

Danielb.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9253 times:



Quoting Danielb (Reply 12):
What is the metro population of St Louis anyways??.....anybody know??

2.7 million



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9244 times:



Quoting Danielb (Reply 12):
.......I would of thought that a city the size of St Louis could easily fill a 767 most days!! YEG Can do that daily, so why couldn't St.Louis?? What is the metro population of St Louis anyways??.....anybody know??

Population is not the only factor.

Canadians, in percentage terms, fly much more often overseas. The majority of Americans do not have a passport and around 70% have never left the country.



a.
User currently offlineMrSTL From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 468 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9244 times:



Quoting Danielb (Reply 12):
.......I would of thought that a city the size of St Louis could easily fill a 767 most days!! YEG Can do that daily, so why couldn't St.Louis?? What is the metro population of St Louis anyways??.....anybody know??

St Louis Metro is a little over 2.8 million, STL serves a marketing area of 3.1 million and it is the closest airport to more than 4 million people.

STL is the second most populated market in the US without non-stop Tran-Atlantic service.

LHR is the largest intl market from STL followed by FRA.


User currently offlineDanielb From Canada, joined May 2009, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9202 times:



Quoting MrSTL (Reply 15):
STL is the second most populated market in the US without non-stop Tran-Atlantic service.

Hmmmm... interesting. Who is the most populated market in the U.S. without a non-stop transatlantic service??

I was surprised to see that CMH as well doesn't have a non-stop service to Europe....or do they and I missed it??

Danielb.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9171 times:



Quoting Danielb (Reply 16):
Who is the most populated market in the U.S. without a non-stop transatlantic service??

Here are the most populous markets without service (I've listed MSA populations):

Riverside, CA (ONT): 4.1 million
San Diego: 3.0 million
St. Louis: 2.8 million
Pittsburgh (for now): 2.3 million
Sacramento: 2.1 million



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9159 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
San Diego: 3.0 million

SAN used to get BA. I don't know when that ended or if it may come back though.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9159 times:



Quoting RIPCORDD (Reply 7):
Labor is not cheaper in STL most of the work groups are union and get the same wages system wide.

IIRC St Louis got caught up in the same vicious cycle as many other cities. It goes a bit like this, with local variations.

1. Community is concerned about the conditions of a terminal(most common) or a lack of capacity at a few peak times(STL and a few other places).

2. New runway(STL), Taj Mahal terminal and/or concourses(most other places), or even a whole new airport(DEN) is built. It is an easy sell because the community does not think it will have to pay for it - it thinks it can use fees collected from airlines and passengers to pay off construction bonds. Plus some fed grant money seals the deal. It looks like a good deal if you can get something to promote your city at someone else's expense.

3. The people who pay the bills wise up. Airlines cut back, raise fares or discontinue service because of higher fees. Traffic moves to competing airports, or people simply drive, to avoid rising costs. Most times - the airlines warned the city beforehand that this would happen but the politicians refused to listen.

4. Taxes and fees go even higher - they have to in order to service construction debt with a smaller revenue base.

5. Go back to step 3. Then 4. Then 3 again. Rinse, repeat.

Note - this does not happen where new capacity could actually be used - at places such as ORD. There, the traffic truly does cover the extra cost or, more commonly, NIMBY's prevent the project from happening in the first place. It is very hard to build airport improvements where they are actually needed - airside, rather than groundside - and at MAJOR hubs rather than secondary cities.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22924 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9141 times:



Quoting Cloudy (Reply 19):
Note - this does not happen where new capacity could actually be used - at places such as ORD.

...but at the time the new runway was conceived, STL was legitimately a mess. I'm not sure it's anyone's fault that TW went out of business.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9127 times:

The grumbling about the new runway at STL annoys me to no end. When it was being planned and built it was absolutely necessary in order to conduct parallel approaches in bad weather. If you really need to blame someone that badly, blame 9/11 or AA.  banghead 


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3618 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9101 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
The grumbling about the new runway at STL annoys me to no end. When it was being planned and built it was absolutely necessary in order to conduct parallel approaches in bad weather. If you really need to blame someone that badly, blame 9/11 or AA

Indeed. Most people don't realize the planning for the new runway began in 1990 or so, a good 10 years and three bankruptcies before TW was bought out and 13 years before the massive drawdown. The project was already 2/3rds of the way to completion. People don't realize it's not as easy as flipping a switch.

I don't think AA deserves fault as I don't think it ever intended to do what it did to TW. 9/11 necessitated the cuts that directly affected TW, not AA.



PHX based
User currently offlineThestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9087 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Canadians, in percentage terms, fly much more often overseas.

I'm sure that STL would in fact have at least one non-stop to Europe if Americans travelled as much overseas as their northern neighbours.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
The majority of Americans do not have a passport and around 70% have never left the country.

Very sad, yet very, very true !!!

Quoting Danielb (Reply 16):
Who is the most populated market in the U.S. without a non-stop transatlantic service??

I would like to know this as well, my guess would be SAN.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9077 times:



Quoting 777STL (Reply 22):
I don't think AA deserves fault as I don't think it ever intended to do what it did to TW.

AA didn't have a choice but to cut STL flights. If they had kept all of the flights there we would be talking about American in the past tense right now. They made the mistake in buying TW in the first place. The spent a lot and got a little.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 ThegreatRDU : Here we go again....talking about a midsized American city and whether or not it can support a transatlantic flight.... No chance......SAN barely even
26 Slcdeltarumd11 : I think the chances of STL-LHR are slim. Its sad but AA dosn't seem commited to service at STL so unless Missouri and the airport are willing to VERY
27 LambertMan : I quite frankly am shocked it lasted as long as it did. As I've stated before, American is none too eager to do St. Louis any favors. That is essenti
28 777STL : Yes, that's what I'm saying. But, AA couldn't have predicted the massive industry downturn resulting from 9/11 - something else they couldn't have pr
29 Cubsrule : I don't really think it's a question of commitment or favors. If AA felt that they could make money on STL-LHR, they'd do it. Obviously, some sort of
30 Jfk777 : With all those flights to LHR from DFW & ORD more flights to London are needed from teh midwest. The feed through the two big hubs could be feed to S
31 TVNWZ : Not sure about that. They bought certain assets of TW out of bankruptcy. Didn't buy others. I think they got a good deal at the time. Watch what you
32 Timaay419 : Do I have Deja Vu or are all of these comments made about STL every 6 months or so? And it's usually the same chatter from the same users. Anyone who,
33 BMI727 : They paid $2 billion for what is now an all but irrelevant RJ hub, some MD-80s (which were pretty new), and a MX base in KC. Southwest. Interesting,
34 DocLightning : Here's what I don't get: STL is geographically located in an ideal position for a domestic hub. It's smack in the middle of the country. It's not a ve
35 Lexy : In all honesty, what are you laughing at? Without all that "prop-up" money, RDU would wihtout a doubt be without it's LHR flight too. That little cit
36 Timaay419 : Here we go... I don't really think a seamful or seamless connection for you is an airlines priority anymore. Do you? Sure they'll pay a premium, but y
37 BMI727 : Perhaps less than other places, but north of the airport there is all of Boeing's (and some others like GoJet and GKN) assorted buildings. West is al
38 Moman : Yes, this topic comes up about every 6 months and it's always the same, so let me add the same stuff I wrote 6 months ago again Actually, AA pretty mu
39 LambertMan : I wasn't necessarily talking about LHR, but when was the last time American showed any hint of interest in the operation? I would say....well...never
40 LambertMan : I disagree. The reception to the American cutbacks was in general fairly warm and to American's credit, part of it was due to an excellent schedule f
41 CIDFlyer : I've always thought US would have made a good hub for STL. At some point in time didn't they consider buying TWA to gain that hub? Could have sworn a
42 OzarkD9S : US did at one point flirt with TWA, but they were scared to death of WN's ops at STL. US never could (pre-HP) deal with WN.
43 ThePinnacleKid : Personally, I think STL would work better if American had a right sized fleet to utilize on the routes.... Most routes don't need RJ dominance with 7
44 BMI727 : Not really. But a connection in STL adds probably at least 3 hours to an already lengthy journey. It could be good, given the number of business trav
45 CIDFlyer : I totally agree with you on this one. It'd be nice if AA could have some CR9's, E70's or E90's, I definitely think that would have helped STL's situa
46 BMI727 : The lack of rightsizing ability has really hamstrung AA as a whole, but STL seems to have suffered the most.
47 Brilondon : They did not make a mistake buying TW. They removed a competitor, gained access to European markets of TW, and generally were the beneficiary of some
48 Cubsrule : Actually, when 11-29 was in the (early) planning stages, there was talk of expansion south of 70 (both runway and terminal potentially, IIRC). While
49 STT757 : Geographically MCI is even better than STL. TWA, Braniff, Eastern, US Air, Vanguard, YX have all tried hubbing at MCI but could never make it work. I
50 BMI727 : No it isn't, but it is a good base to start with. Having a solid business link that is unlikely to go away is valuable on any route. Competing with W
51 Cubsrule : Is that because of the airport design? Certainly, the airport design was the reason that TW publicly gave for abandoning the hub.
52 WESTERN737800 : I agree. I think AA needs to find a way to fly a 757 STL-JFK-London, easier said then done I'm sure.
53 Cubsrule : How are VX or AS different from WN? Agreed, and I think AS might be able to support STL-SEA if AA dropped it. But with AA flying all of the important
54 BMI727 : They provide better comfort and service. Really, after flying STL-SLC last summer, I wouldn't want to ever spend more than 2 hours at a time on WN. B
55 Cubsrule : As does, arguably, WN. I realize you aren't a fan, but the Y experience on WN is objectively no worse than AA and may be better. AFAIK, that's correc
56 BMI727 : I've known Boeing's people to use WN to get to Chicago. I can't imagine anyone taking UA Express without a really good reason though. But while AA an
57 STT757 : I have an Eastern employees newspaper (Falcon) from 1984 which has an article about the Eastern build up of Kansas City, they really did their homewo
58 Cairo : I've read most of the replies and I think you have the best feel for the alleged problem with AA and STL: which is, basically: EVEN IF STL has some p
59 Rwylie77 : Spot on - I have been flying London to St Louis 4-5 times a year since 2001, and even though AA do not offer a direct flight, they are still the best
60 BHMNONREV : If it had the legs the 752 would be the perfect aircraft for STL-London, the lack of a right-sized aircraft is essentially what killed the route in t
61 Cubsrule : Post-ATI, they won't need all the slots they are using for JFK and ORD for those cities, and BA clearly has slots that aren't currently used for TATL
62 BMI727 : I just wish UA would stop it with those damn CR7s and let S5 bring their E-jets to STL. But on a positive note, I got RW 175s on the entirety of PWM-
63 STT757 : If AA/BA's ATI gets approved they could really shake things up, they don't need to have so many redundant flights from JFK, ORD, MIA etc.. They could
64 Cubsrule : I don't think there's any way that STL will get LHR service prior to ATI, but I don't know about after. I do expect that once ATI happens, that will
65 USPIT10L : That sounds just like what we say in Pittsburgh regarding US Airways. Unfortunately for us, no one has been able to "step-up" and fill enough of the
66 FlyBoy84 : Hallelujiah and AMEN brudda'! I've been stuck FLYING on those contraptions...and it's NOTHING nice!
67 TVNWZ : A bunch of new 757's, a big FF group, overseas authorities. Overseas routes kept them going for as long as they did. Landscape has changed, though, f
68 BMI727 : Which are all wearing Widgets now.
69 Moman : The city of St. Louis for years was afforded way more air traffic (due to the hub) than it would have attracted on its own, as is seen today in the cu
70 777STL : I don't think any of those were actually owned by TW - I believe they were all leased at very unattractive rates. AA couldn't wait to get rid of thos
71 ThegreatRDU : awwwww we have a whiner
72 Cubsrule : Interestingly in the context of a potential London flight, though, a couple of those acquisitions may actually have INCREASED demand to Europe. A-B a
73 Jfk777 : If KLM has a 737 with 40 Business Class seats from Amsterdam to Houston, plus a daily 747, why can't a similar 737 flight to say LGW be done. Surely
74 Danielb : awwwww we have a whiner[/quote] Hello? This is an aviation forum. Please try not to display your ignorance "Great" RDU! Try and say something intellig
75 SurfandSnow : Now I hate to say it, but I do believe St. Louis now has just about the amount of air service that it really should. I remember the likes of STL-OGG,
76 LambertMan : That is correct. A-B Inbev makes extensive use of commercial air travel, but they don't use F class. All economy, which is a reflection of their cost
77 STT757 : IAH-AMS is a huge business route, which is why even after CO leaves Skyteam they are flying IAH-AMS with a 777-200ER. Royal Dutch Shell is based in H
78 777STL : ABI is also selling the entire corporate "airline" that AB ran prior to the merger.
79 Steex : Exactly right. IAH-AMS is the kind of route with such well developed premium demand (through both O&D and onward connections) that the widebodies on
80 Moman : As stated by LambertMan, that's an excellent point. I'm a big Cardinals fan myself, but continue to be amazed at the general apathy the region shows
81 LH423 : Simple. "It's the economy...[insert word of choice here]". Edmonton's economy, much like Alberta as a whole, is rooted in the energy sector which has
82 Cubsrule : This is an accurate assessment. We live in Richmond Heights, and my wife teaches in Wildwood. She has students who honestly believe that Kirkwood-- n
83 Steex : Those kids need a field trip in which they just ride a bus up the length of Goodfellow Blvd. That would be a wake up call! But overall, I can't think
84 Lexy : Very intelligent my friend. I too have often wondered how a city like YEG could support the service it has. Everyone says energy and all but there ha
85 BMI727 : The white flight in St. Louis is astounding. Certainly. All of those trendy condos that a lot of cities have downtown really don't exist in St. Louis
86 Timaay419 : I'm pretty sure everyone, by now, is fully aware of this. The city of St. Louis isn't beaten down. The most interesting and beautiful parts of St. Lo
87 BMI727 : Edward Jones is like 100 feet inside of 270. Chesterfield is nice. People have short memories though. Let's build stuff on land that was underwater 1
88 San747 : BA service ended October 26, 2003. The facilities can handle ANY widebody except an A380. The problem was that BA's service, and inevitably, any Euro
89 777STL : I mostly agree, but the bad parts greatly outweigh the good parts. The CWE is nice, but I wouldn't want to be down there at night - same for Forest P
90 Fxramper : I don't see STL getting international Europe, much less LHR for a long time. Back in 2002 I missed a AUS-ORD-LHR because I overslept. I was rebooked
91 Cubsrule : It's important to remember that-- for reasons more historical than anything else-- the City is quite a bit smaller as compared to the metro area than
92 Steex : I should clarify my statement a little. In using the term "core city," I was referring to the area strictly within the city limits. I was trying to i
93 MAH4546 : Canadians travel abroad often. Americans do not.
94 TVNWZ : Interesting trip down memory lane for someone who went to school at Kingshighway and Oakland. Surprising that all you St. Louis people have not trotte
95 Flyb : YEG and YYC support populations of around 1 million each and have three factors that help them. Canadians travel abroad a lot more than Americans, Oi
96 ThegreatRDU : hahaha he said I shouldn't be laughing at cities with larger populations without service to Europe.....So let me get this straight simply because it
97 Cubsrule : In terms of this thread, the range of the 752 is probably also relevant. If Raleigh had St. Louis' location, the 752 service would not have worked, a
98 BMI727 : That is a big part of the argument for European flights at STL. St. Louis is home to several large companies, some of which are financial companies w
99 ERJ170 : My turn to chime in.. STL location is detrimental to it's Atlantic, Pacific, and Southern Hemisphere capabilities. The only way STL can get service t
100 Cubsrule : But, as you point out, that's not true of the CDG flight. There's nothing stopping business interests in St. Louis from creating a travel bank or pri
101 ERJ170 : Ahhh.. but if you read, there is one airline that cares.. and that's AA. And AA doesn't one to do it.. and they will be d@mned if they will allow any
102 LambertMan : Not true. St. Louis has jumped through hoops for American. Airlines don't care who's the favorite at what airport as long as they are making their bu
103 ERJ170 : Well, just remember the guarantee for the LHR (and other flights) does not come from RDU. The guarantee comes from RTRP, which is a consortium of busi
104 Cubsrule : What evidence is there that AA cares about the source of a subsidy? I certainly haven't seen any. What's bad about it? I haven't had the pleasure of
105 BMI727 : Hardly anyone has in the past few years. There are a few Jazz and USA 3000 flights and that is about it. I find it hard to believe all of the whining
106 Galapagapop : Well I personally don't find the city itself to be a problem at night until the summer when you just have lots of people who just wander around the st
107 ThegreatRDU :
108 LambertMan : Jazz doesn't arrive into the E-gate customs facilities. USA3000, charters, Frontier (for a while)etc. all use the E customs. Once you walk down the s
109 Cubsrule : I suspect if the price were right, the 1972 purple motif (which I kind of like, in the same way that I like MEM) would be just fine.
110 Post contains links MrSTL : STL terminal and concourse upgrades will continue, even with the cutbacks and poor economy. Where are the six new jetbridges going? http://www.aviatio
111 Stl1326 : I'm glad they are continuing to look for way to improve and modernize the airport facilities. The dome in the main terminal looks great. It's amazaing
112 Timaay419 : I must say I'm impressed with your analyzation...very well written. The perception of crime in the city is grossly exaggerated. Granted, I know peopl
113 FURUREFA : As a BOS-based flyer, I can sympathize with the AA cutbacks; we've had our fair share... In addition, as much as I dislike the airport terminal itself
114 BMI727 : I think that part of a movie was filmed there. Now it may or may not be in the process of being refurbished.
115 Tommy767 : STL for AA is barely a hub anymore. It's more of a mini hub or large focus city. And yes, it's very sad.
116 LambertMan : Thank you. I'm glad you could fill me in that living in the area doesn't automatically get me in touch with city demographics. I was implying that I
117 Timaay419 : Let's revisit what it is I said, shall we? Let me rewrite basically the same thing: While the 64/40 corridor (meaning from downtown to Chesterfield o
118 LambertMan : I did misread your post regarding city/metro area, my apologies. We are discussing different items. You are talking about a major airline hub, which
119 Galapagapop : Well thank you, I was worried about stepping on someones toes, because from my experience, just like people are polarized to segregation, everyone fr
120 Post contains links Stl1326 : I disagree with this statement. The STL median household income, $52,465, is above the national average of $50,740 and the cost of living in the metr
121 LambertMan : I'm an admitted St. Louis homer, but I'm not off in left field about its problems. There are more than I can name, most notably a tax-unfriendly busi
122 ERJ170 : Very elegantly put...
123 BMI727 : I don't think so, many of the old money people do live in the city. The difference is that almost the entire middle class and new money population ha
124 Galapagapop : My apologies if you felt this was aimed at you specifically, from what I've read from you, you don't need to worry about being in any of those polari
125 Cubsrule : What part of 40 is closing in September? The (general) traffic pattern (this is for emergencies) is that North City is more likely to go to Barnes, a
126 BMI727 : Makes my life a bit easier though. Actually the whole traffic thing was overblown. St. Louis certainly didn't become the mess a lot of people expecte
127 Steex : Certainly not. I've got piles and piles of data regarding traffic volumes and travel times to prove it. Depending on the route and direction, many tr
128 BMI727 : I travel along Forest Park Parkway almost every day (during the school year) and around Christmas everyone was talking about how it would become such
129 Timaay419 : It's 1:15am, and I just started reading these replies...woah. No, we're talking about the same thing, and that's the demographics of the St. Louis met
130 Steex : Can be, but in the case of the Highway 40 closure results, it is not really wrong. However, there are two ways to look at it...looking at any given s
131 Galapagapop : Well I don't know how you can make that statement. Have you ever tried using forest park pkwy between 4-6 on weekdays? It takes about 30-45 min most
132 BMI727 : Yep. It does slow down, but it is bearable. Maybe somewhere way, way down the line. There are tons of Chinese students around though.
133 Steex : I haven't heard that, I'll have to see what I can find out. If that were to happen, though, it would be a separate project as Kingshighway is actuall
134 Post contains images Galapagapop : Even though it says DON'T STOP IN THE INTERSECTION, every light change from the off ramps, some moron always stops for the red for Grand, even if the
135 BMI727 : And you just got to one of my pet peeves. Seriously, people need to think more.
136 Cubsrule : Forest Park is the only road which has serious issues (some of that is volume; there's often a big eastbound backup at Big Bend, and that's not a coo
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