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Confusing Terminal Signs At MSP  
User currently offlineContinental From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5516 posts, RR: 18
Posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 4655 times:

I just read this: http://kstp.com/news/stories/S952741.shtml?cat=1

Apparently many people get lost because they didn't know that MSP had two terminals or that they aren't next to each other. That's a fair claim, and I will agree it can be tough to get to the Humphrey terminal from 494.

It looks like they may rename the terminals Terminal 1 (Lindbergh) and Terminal 2 (Humphrey). In my opinion, not a bad idea, but I'm not sure how that would help.

Finally, they are going to change the road signs to make it easier for motorists to get to the Humphrey terminal. But what I don't understand is why this is going to cost $1 million! That's incredible. Do signs really cost that much? It's a great idea to restructure these signs, but for $1 million?

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 4657 times:

These people should never use Boston's subway system.


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User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 4643 times:
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I honestly don't think it is that confusing to get to the Humphrey Terminal. If you park in the garage it clearly says where to go. On the highway as well I still don't think it is that bad. But then again if you are watching the planes come in it might be a little easy to miss Big grin.
Blue



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User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12242 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 4602 times:
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If people can't keep Humphrey and Lindbergh separate, what makes you think they can keep 1 and 2 separate? And as far as getting to Humphrey from 494?? Make a turn onto 34th Ave and you'll run right into it... Some people just shouldn't be out in public unsupervised.


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User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 4597 times:

It's not that hard - the signs on I-494 are pretty clearly marked. Take 34th Ave for Humphrey (and just drive straight on it; it's impossible to miss the terminal); Take Highway 5 for Lindbergh.

Though I think that renaming the terminals Terminal 1/Terminal 2 would be a huge help.

The big issue is that now with Humphrey starting to see more passengers due to Southwest, many of the new WN passengers are former NW passengers who are used to one terminal (and only one terminal) - Lindbergh. For all they know, Humphrey doesn't exist (it's not that well-signed in the main terminal). Now that there's a huge increase in traffic at HHH, it makes sense that there's a bit more confusion.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 4599 times:

Also, it's not too hard to get from HHH to Lindbergh - take a left as you leave HHH and follow the signs to Lindbergh - it's pretty well signed. Same going the other way - there's a sign off Highway 5.

User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 4566 times:

Last time I was at MSP... which was admittedly probably somewhere around 12 years ago (and I would have been 13 at the absolute oldest) I remember thinking that it would be difficult to layout the wayfinding system in a way that made less sense. Actually, thinking of it, I think it's the most difficult airport I've navigated... IAH terminal C to E is a little funky, but...

Quoting Continental (Thread starter):
what I don't understand is why this is going to cost $1 million! That's incredible. Do signs really cost that much? It's a great idea to restructure these signs, but for $1 million?

There's the question of how many signs but honestly it doesn't seem too out of line:

- You have to pay for materials that can withstand all weather conditions for 10+ years... yet are also highly visible/reflective so they can be read at night.

- You have to pay for fabrication/assembly (fabricate the backing of the sign, the back reflective surface [i.e. background color], design, cut, and place the lettering and sign boder, laminate it all togehter)

- You have to remove existing signs which if they're the large overhead variety can involve crane(s), work crew(s) and traffic protection (to keep try to keep drivers who aren't paying attention from running into said crane(s) or work crew(s)

- You have to install the new signs which has the same costs/problems associated as removing the old ones.

- You have to do something (dispose of, recycle, etc) the old signs.

- You have to pay for insurance to cover the risks that are inherent with hanging a large metal item in mid air.

- If you have a private contractor do it you also have to cover their profit, overhead, etc.

Lincoln



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User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1540 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 4520 times:

I agree that it shouldn't be very hard to find the right terminal, especially with the signs that say which airlines are at which terminal, but I've seen a ton of lost people around the Humphrey and light rail who are confused. It definitely doesn't help that the light rail stop at the Humphrey is still far away from the terminal but I still don't know how people get lost.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 6):
IAH terminal C to E is a little funky, but...

How is it funky? Do you mean B to E?



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User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4479 times:



Quoting FL787 (Reply 7):
How is it funky? Do you mean B to E?

God, I had forgotten B-E (only done it twice...and don't 100% remember how I did it either)... C-E it just seems like every time I try getting from Cxx to Exx I wind up finding a different way to do it...And every time I ask someone I get pointed to the train...but I wind up finding the terminal before I find the train



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User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4446 times:

I was just up in the twin cities a few weeks ago, the problem isn't finding the terminals, it's knowing WHICH terminal your airline flies from. The couple in front of me at the car rental counter put the wrong terminal in the reservation, and so they couldn't pick up the car without correcting the res. Rental agent said it happens all the time now. But it slowed the line down for everyone.

There needs to be giant overhead signs on 494 with the names of the airlines and the corresponding terminals. Something similar to the signs on the roads into DTW.


User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2675 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4409 times:



Quoting Toltommy (Reply 9):

The only sign which lists the airlines serving the HHH Terminal is on 34th Avenue, but it would be good to put another sign listing the HHH Terminal and Lindbergh Terminal airlines on 494.

I know this probably won't happen but a tram running from the HHH Terminal to Lindbergh would be a good idea so if passengers are at the wrong terminal they can simply take the tram instead of taking the long walk across the parking ramp to the light rail station. Or they need to have a simple walk path from the light rail station to the HHH Terminal. I went on the light rail to the HHH Terminal in the middle of winter and it was a long and cold walk to the terminal.



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User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4396 times:



Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 10):

The only sign which lists the airlines serving the HHH Terminal is on 34th Avenue, but it would be good to put another sign listing the HHH Terminal and Lindbergh Terminal airlines on 494.

The signs on 494 only say "Humphrey Terminal Exit 2C" and "Lindbergh Terminal Exit 2B" (don't quote me on the actual exit numbers). Tram between terminals really doesn't make sense. Yes its a hike to the Light Rail, but it's there. I can't imagine what the cost would be for a tram. Yikes. And MSP really doesn't have much in the way of interline connections to justify the need, similar to DTW.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4328 times:



Quoting Toltommy (Reply 11):
And MSP really doesn't have much in the way of interline connections to justify the need, similar to DTW.

Especially with Midwest moving back to the Main Terminal next month - that would be the only real case of interlining out there (aside from maybe some FL and FI ones; I don't think SY does interlining and I know WN doesn't).


User currently offlineAviatortj From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4264 times:



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 3):
If people can't keep Humphrey and Lindbergh separate, what makes you think they can keep 1 and 2 separate? And as far as getting to Humphrey from 494?? Make a turn onto 34th Ave and you'll run right into it... Some people just shouldn't be out in public unsupervised.

This is the root of the issue right here. The fact that there are 12 complaints each month, just goes to show that there are at least 12 people who don't do their research or pay attention to where they are going. Based upon the hundreds of thousands of people that leave from the two terminals, the ratio of complaints is not that terrible.

However, in my opinion, the new billboards are worthless since the airline logos are so small. Airline signage along the interstate may be of assistance, but if people don't read any of the signs as they drive into the terminals, what makes you think they'll read the signs on the freeways?


User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1175 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4231 times:
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Having lived in Mpls St Paul since 1980 I have to say:

Yeah! it is high time that MSP joins the rest of the modern world and denotes terminals as Terminal 1 and Terminal 2 and further lists the airlines serving each terminal on all the signs on the various access roads.

The only thing we have to do now is rename the highway loop that serves Terminal 1 and Terminal 2 as something like 5494 or 4945 or perhaps MSP Airport Access Hwy or MSP Airport Loop

That way if you use a GPS you can see the line up of the 2 terminals on one road loop. Either that or a build a Terminal 1 to Terminal 2 connector road.

I greatly admire the names and history of the distinguished politician HHH and distinguished aviator Lindy, but both are complex and not very memorable names for our out of town guests.

MSP, you are finally joining the 21st century!



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21565 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4171 times:

From the article:

"The airport is the only one in the nation with two terminals that aren't on the same road."

This isn't true. LGA's Marine Air Terminal is on a different road from the other terminals. It is signposted along the Grand Central Parkway, though not very clearly. But I haven't heard of this problem happening there all that much.

They do have little letters for each terminal (A for the Marine Air Terminal, B for the Main Terminal, C for the USAirways Terminal and D for the Delta Terminal), but nobody I know refers to them that way - they use the names.

Quoting Aviatortj (Reply 13):
However, in my opinion, the new billboards are worthless since the airline logos are so small. Airline signage along the interstate may be of assistance, but if people don't read any of the signs as they drive into the terminals, what makes you think they'll read the signs on the freeways?

To be fair, the signs do look like advertisements. What they need to do is take a page from the book of all the other airports around the country that have different airlines in different terminals and create a set of big boring looking signs along the access roads that clearly say which airlines are in which terminals. Just renaming them isn't going to help those who don't know which terminal they're going to in the first place.

-Mir



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User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4100 times:

All I really needed to see was the author of the article. KSTP hates anything aviation, so as usual they're making a mountain out of a molehill. Must be a slow news day. I mean, only 12 complaints a month? Out of millions of passengers a year? Give me a break.

I wasn't even a teenager yet when I learned what the Humphrey terminal was. I really didn't even know the name of the "main" terminal yet, but I certainly knew there were two and they were different. Half the fun of going to the airport was taking the old bus service between the terminals and going under the runways. Numbering the terminals instead is more confusing and flat-out boring, IMO. I can see it now, "Terminal 1, 2? Do I go to 1 because it's bigger? Or is 2 bigger? Or is it 1 because it's newer? AHH!!!"


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12242 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3830 times:
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Quoting Coronado (Reply 14):
Yeah! it is high time that MSP joins the rest of the modern world and denotes terminals as Terminal 1 and Terminal 2 and further lists the airlines serving each terminal on all the signs on the various access roads.

So now you'll have people slamming on their brakes on 494 trying to read the long list of airlines at each terminal. People should check before they leave home, and if they don't....well, not my problem. There's a sign on the access road to Lindbergh, as well as one on 34th Ave leading to Humphrey. Plenty of time to go to the other one should you be in the wrong place.

Quoting Coronado (Reply 14):
Either that or a build a Terminal 1 to Terminal 2 connector road.

There is....it's called Post Rd. It even has signage..



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3825 times:



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 17):
So now you'll have people slamming on their brakes on 494 trying to read the long list of airlines at each terminal.

Exactly - that's a busy section of 494 as it is - last thing we need is another sign up there to add to the problem.

Though it will be easy if/when Delta takes over the Main Terminal - sign it as Main Terminal - Delta; HHH - Everyone but Delta.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12242 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3820 times:
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Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 18):
Though it will be easy if/when Delta takes over the Main Terminal - sign it as Main Terminal - Delta; HHH - Everyone but Delta.

I was thinking that too  Smile

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Everybody else



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User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3816 times:



Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 16):

I wasn't even a teenager yet when I learned what the Humphrey terminal was.

Lets say you are a business traveler who comes into town, grabs a rental car and heads to Best Buy for a meeting. You get in the car, head back across 494 and CR@P! Which terminal? Good sinage is less for the locals than it is the out of towners.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10393 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3804 times:

Still can't be as bad as the old ATH airport was. One terminal for OA on one side of the airport and another terminal for everyone else, clear over on the other side of the airport......and no shuttle in between. You either had to be a ticketed passenger, I believe to take a bus (not good for us non-revs) or you had to take a taxi and hope the driver didn't try to gouge you on the fare.


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User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3768 times:



Quoting Toltommy (Reply 20):

Lets say you are a business traveler who comes into town, grabs a rental car and heads to Best Buy for a meeting. You get in the car, head back across 494 and CR@P! Which terminal? Good sinage is less for the locals than it is the out of towners.

First off, good luck getting a parking spot in the visitor's lot after about 1000a...  Wink

Anyway, it's becoming more of a problem now with Southwest - I've heard a lot more chatter when I'm walking through what we call The Hub (basically the central area that connects our four buildings) of people who have been taking Southwest. Before WN, it wasn't as much of an issue for business travelers (you had Midwest with a handful of flights and AirTran as well, but not that much; and Sun Country isn't really going after the business traveler segment with only one, maybe two, daily flights to their cities - not enough frequency/flexibility for most people). But now with WN having 8 flights to MDW (plus now the 3 DEN) makes them a very viable option for business travelers.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22913 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3624 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
This isn't true. LGA's Marine Air Terminal is on a different road from the other terminals. It is signposted along the Grand Central Parkway, though not very clearly. But I haven't heard of this problem happening there all that much.

ORD Terminal 5 also comes to mind, though I'd say the signage at ORD is good, and I've never heard of anyone having a problem.



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User currently offlineAviationwiz From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 962 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3611 times:



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 17):
So now you'll have people slamming on their brakes on 494 trying to read the long list of airlines at each terminal.

I recall reading an article not too long ago about this issue, saying that due to laws restricting the amount and size of text on a freeway sign, that they can't do that, so we'll see what happens.

In addition to signage once on the access road to the terminals, almost every airline tells you what terminal you depart from in your itinerary, or, if they don't, you can find it on their website. The one exception I can see appears to be Delta out of JNB... where nothing on the DL website says to go to Terminal A (and yes, there actually is a Terminal B now).



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25 BlueFlyer : I was about to make that point. I fly into airports using numbers to identify their terminals all the time, be it in or out of the US, and somehow I
26 Cubsrule : That's interesting-- there are certainly signs on Interstate 190 heading in to ORD that list the airlines, and Terminal 5 at ORD has more airlines th
27 DeltAirlines : At least with Interstate 190, there is only one destination on that road - O'Hare (ok, so there's the 290 interchange and the 12/45 interchange, but
28 Cubsrule : Correct, though I doubt that whatever interstate highway design standards there are that affect this point differentiate based on the "density" of de
29 Jbernie : Sounds like DEN, we have one terminal (but 3 concourses) but it is split East & West, as you drive along Pena Blvd to the terminal there are multiple
30 KaiGywer : I do the same, except I go UNDER 494 on 34th Ave
31 Mir : Exactly. JFK has a similar setup, with signs along the side of both the JFK Expressway and the Van Wyck Expressay. Works just fine. And since MSP doe
32 Sunking737 : Do you think that people read signs??????????? I worked at MSP from Sept 1979 to Dec. 2006, And I can tell you they don't. MAC as spent millions of do
33 Justapassenger : I don’t think the problem is getting to the correct terminal, the problem is once you get to the terminal and are given a choice of only “ticketin
34 DeltAirlines : Ah...I tend to avoid the underpass unless it's late night and I'm returning home (I normally park at either Park 'n Go or Park and Fly unless I have
35 Mayor : Used to happen at SLC, too...before the DL/WA merger. Passenger walks into the terminal, straight up to the DL counter (3 positions, at the time) and
36 Steex : The Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) doesn't establish actual laws regarding signage or roadway applications as such, only guidance, so it gener
37 DLHFLYER : Star Tribune is saying that this might cost 1 million dollars. Seems like a lot of money.
38 DeltAirlines : A million seems pretty accurate, considering the following: - New signs to be placed on I-494 East and West and Hwy 5 South showing the airlines, and
39 Post contains links Continental : Sun Country doesn't want the Humphrey Terminal to change its name: http://kstp.com/news/stories/S961213.shtml?cat=1 They would suffer a major financia
40 DLHFLYER : I am not arguing about the accuracy of 1 million dollars. More about the waste of money going into this.
41 KE7JFF : Just for sport, I looked at the Manual on Uniform Traffic Devices (which is the Federal standard for all signs on US Roads & Highways regardless if th
42 DeltAirlines : I wouldn't mind paying even 3 cents extra for the change - I take approximately 100 revenue flights into or out of MSP each year, so that's an extra
43 MSPNWA : Considering that I was then and still am an out-of-towner, I would hope that the knowledgeable business traveler would have the sense to read his or
44 DeltAirlines : The signs would most likely be the cheap part - labor would be a pretty substantial cost. In addition to just having the people to change the signs,
45 Continental : I totally understand that, but do you think people would stop flying Sun Country because the Humphrey Terminal was renamed Terminal 2?
46 MSPNWA : I doubt it, but if the name was officially changed all that advertising money would, in a way, go down the drain. SY would look back at that time and
47 Steex : Keep in mind that the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices) sets standards, but does not set laws or policies. While most elements of the
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