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Small European Carriers W/ Transatlantic Svc.  
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8443 times:

How do smaller carriers with transatlantic service (CSA, LOT offhand) make a go of this relatively expensive route (both I believe only offer JFK and maybe IAD?) remain separate when bigger ones such as OS get gobbled up? I realize the synergies of bringing OS into the LH fold along with LX, but I've always wondered how CSA and LOT for example make a go of offering the one or two transatlantic routes. I would think that they could easily use partner airlines to do the across the pond work since they obviously do not have much demand if they can only fill one transatlantic plane (or two) anyway. Even OS for example offers JFK, ORD, IAD, and YYZ(?), which is a much larger pool of transatlantic fliers, not to mention their Asia long-haul ops.

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHeathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8404 times:

LO and OK offer YYZ, as well as MA and OA.

Don't forget SK has a few routes, AY has their JFK route, and seasonal YYZ service. IB has JFK, MIA and i think a few others (IAD?)

[Edited 2009-05-31 11:26:04]

User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8367 times:

But isn't IB a rather larger airline that CSA and LOT? I'm not trying to split hairs, but I never considered IB a small airline along those lines.

User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8351 times:



Quoting LHCVG (Thread starter):
How do smaller carriers with transatlantic service (CSA, LOT offhand) make a go of this relatively expensive route (both I believe only offer JFK and maybe IAD?) remain separate when bigger ones such as OS get gobbled up? I

CSA and LOT are the only airlines that fly to NYC nonstop in the market. Plus they codeshare with their respective alliance partners. Transatlantic flights are not any more expensive to operate than short routes. Actually a bit cheaper on a per mile basis.

Quoting LHCVG (Thread starter):
I would think that they could easily use partner airlines to do the across the pond work since they obviously do not have much demand if they can only fill one transatlantic plane (or two) anyway.

CSA and LOT are partner airlines. They both belong to alliances and DL and UA codeshare with them respectively. It makes a lot more sense to have CSA and LOT fly transatlantic with their hubs in Prague and Warsaw. Both airlines can connect to Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine and Russia.

Long-haul routes quite frequently are operated only once per day. Sometimes less than daily. All the European airlines do so on routes to Asia, Middle East and South America.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8311 times:

I guess I forgot about the seat-mile costs which are obviously much lower for long-haul travel. I can see how once-daily can also make lots of money for long-haul flying, but I was just referring to the having to maintain that subfleet. Although being the only ones in the market I guess does keep other SkyTeam and Star partners from having to cover that route.

User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6339 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8290 times:

Although having quite a large low fare short-haul network from Ireland and it's newest bases at Belfast and Gatwick, Aer Lingus is still a relatively small airline with around 70 destinations, four bases and nearly 50 aircraft. Aer Lingus has 6 transatlantic destinations from Dublin and Shannon.

JFK
BOS
ORD
IAD
MCO
SFO

The current transatlantic routes are under review and it looks likely that IAD and SFO could be suspended and frequencies cut on other routes at least temporarily.


User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3956 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8192 times:

Icelandair is not a big airline...


and

SAS is actually the 5th biggest airline in Europe... They're just not so big on transatlantic / longhaul as they used to be.

Total scheduled passengers carried in 2005 - 2008 (millions):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_Europe


User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8098 times:



Quoting LHCVG (Reply 4):
I guess I forgot about the seat-mile costs which are obviously much lower for long-haul travel. I can see how once-daily can also make lots of money for long-haul flying, but I was just referring to the having to maintain that subfleet. Although being the only ones in the market I guess does keep other SkyTeam and Star partners from having to cover that route.

There seems to be a belief in this forum that gargantuan airlines with 2000 aircraft and 6 huge hubs somehow have an advantage over small airlines. That does not seem to be born out by the facts.

Alaska, Airtran, Spirit and Allegiant all seem to be doing better than the bigger US airlines during this recession. Yet all four I mentioned are relatively small compared to the majors in the US.

A small airline with optimal aircraft, financial structure and routes can make profit against the big ones.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5296 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8055 times:



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 1):
LO and OK offer YYZ, as well as MA and OA.

LO also serves ORD which, IIRC, is a busier route than NYC given the large Polish population in Chicago. Also, MA has dropped all longhaul service and is now strictly a shorthaul carrier.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7979 times:

Didn't BT look into starting some sort of TATL service, they recently took on 2 B757's.

RO and MA both used to offer TATL services, RO offered JFK with the A310.

Aerosvit which is a Ukranian carrier offers YYZ and JFK, they also have some flights to China.



seemyseems
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7975 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 7):
A small airline with optimal aircraft, financial structure and routes can make profit against the big ones.

I completely agree. I was just thinking of having 767s or A310s to fly only a couple routes would be a rather expensive subfleet on the premise of trying to minimize distinct subfleets (where in both cases neither would share type ratings with anything else in their respective fleets rather than just another A3xx or 73x model).


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25473 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7955 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 9):
RO and MA both used to offer TATL services, RO offered JFK with the A310.

JAT also flew transatlantic for many years.


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User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7909 times:



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 6):
Icelandair is not a big airline...

Yeah but technically evrery flight on Icelandair is a trans Atlantic flight.


User currently offlineMke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7820 times:

LO flies WAW/KRK-ORD, WAW-YYZ, WAW/KRK/RZE-EWR, and WAW/RZE-JFK.


Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 420 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7590 times:
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Transaero (Russia) to YUL and YYZ.

BA84


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5296 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7438 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
JAT also flew transatlantic for many years.

In fact they had a rather extensive TATL network serving JFK, ORD, CLE, DTW, LAX, YYZ, YVR, and YMX.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3435 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7123 times:



Quoting LHCVG (Reply 4):
but I was just referring to the having to maintain that subfleet.

It is defnitely a concern. I can speak of the small Caribbean based airlines such as BW and JM. BW specifically had a somewhat extensive European network. Over time it downsized for economic reasons. BW and JM eventually only flew long-haul to London. It simply wasn't economical because the route couldn't be run with 1 a/c even thought it was only daily, because in the event of a mechanical problem, serious problems arise. A second a/c for one route was obviously overkill. So both JM and BW ended up axing the routes and codesharing with VS and BA respectively.

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 5):
The current transatlantic routes are under review and it looks likely that IAD and SFO could be suspended and frequencies cut on other routes at least temporarily.

I believe they are also axing ORD.

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineBramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7084 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 16):
I believe they are also axing ORD

SNN-ORD is dropped for the winter schedule but DUB-ORD will remain. EI previously had 2 of SNN-DUB-ORD, SNN-ORD and/or DUB-ORD, mixing and matching depending on season and demand.


User currently offlinePtugarin From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6922 times:

1) Air Europa - JFK, CUN, SDQ, EZE, CCS , etc
2) Air Comet - EZE, LIM, CUN, etc
3) Air Berlin - some Caribbean destinations


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25473 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6903 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
JAT also flew transatlantic for many years.

In fact they had a rather extensive TATL network serving JFK, ORD, CLE, DTW, LAX, YYZ, YVR, and YMX.

Some of those destinations (YVR is one) were charters only.


User currently offlinePtugarin From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6393 times:

SATA Air Azores - OAK, YUL, BOS, YYZ
Icelandair - SEA, BOS, JFK, MSP, MCO, YHZ, YYZ
Corsair - French Caribbean destinations


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2180 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6316 times:

One can add OA to that list. And opposite to LO and OK, they do not belong to an alliance. Not that they necessarily do well in terms of profit, but they still operate a few t-atl routes, to both US and Canada.


When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6157 times:



Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10):
I was just thinking of having 767s or A310s to fly only a couple routes would be a rather expensive subfleet on the premise of trying to minimize distinct subfleets (where in both cases neither would share type ratings with anything else in their respective fleets rather than just another A3xx or 73x model).

What these airlines do is get someone like Lufthansa Technik to maintain the aircraft. Because CSA and LOT are European union airlines, they can hire 767 pilots from some other country to fly them. Sometimes they will even wet-lease the aircraft so that the whole thing is maintained and flown by employees of some other airline or a company like ILFC.

You can also use contract crews for the ticket counters and ramp. When I worked for Continental in IAH, we staffed the ticket counter for VIASA because they had only a couple of flights per week. VIASA's entire staff in Houston consisted of two people - a manager and his secretary. All the rest was CO staff.


User currently offlinePatrykg From Germany, joined Apr 2009, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5024 times:



Quoting Ptugarin (Reply 18):
1) Air Europa - JFK, CUN, SDQ, EZE, CCS , etc
2) Air Comet - EZE, LIM, CUN, etc
3) Air Berlin - some Caribbean destinations

Air Berlin is Germany's second largest airline, after Lufthansa... they also fly to JFK, MIA, RSW, LAX and YVR.


User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4687 times:



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 1):
IB has JFK, MIA and i think a few others (IAD?)

Plus
ORD
BOS
MEX
HAV
SDQ
GUA
SJU
PTY
SJO
CCS
BOG
UIO
GYE
LIM
SCL
EZE
MVD
GRU
GIG

Is that a small transatlantic carrier?


25 PlymSpotter : They only operate domestic flights, SATA Internacional operate the A310s and A320s on longer and international flights. Having said that though, the
26 AAMDanny : Thomas Cook (TCX) have regular services to YYZ YUL YOW YEG YHZ YVR YYC mostly from LGW/MAN but also with regional departures from BHX and GLA. These a
27 LX64A332 : I would have to say, that Edelweiss Air, although a part of LX, but still operating independently, is the smallest carrier to offer trans-atlantic ser
28 Eaa3 : Interestingly the airport is only perhaps 5 km from the boundary between the North-American and Eurasian plates.
29 LHCVG : That makes sense. That was my intention with the OP, that I can't see how doing it in-house works but if they wet lease it and just paint in their co
30 Fn1001 : LOT and CSA fly only to the capital cities of Bulgaria and Romania. When arriving in WAW or PRG from across the pond the connections are bad. Austria
31 Jetfox75 : Also there is GSM/Y2 ( flyglobespan ) who operate. GLA - YYC - YVR MAN - YYC - YVR LGW - YYC - YVR DUB - YYC - YVR GLA - YHZ - YHM EDI - DUB - YHM LGW
32 WAC : What about GJ Eurofly...they only serve JFK from Italy....
33 Zrs70 : I really miss BD's transatlantic flights. Probably one of the smaller carriers to offer such routes.
34 Humberside : Dont think MON serve YYZ. There are charters to Deer Lake/YYC/SFB/CUN/Carribean however
35 L410Turbolet : I agree about OS, but you should check BA's route network first. They are completely absent from Baltic countries, Slovakia, Belarus and only margina
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