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Lion Air Indonesia Is Getting 747-400s?  
User currently offlineTDubJFK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13106 times:

Frightening prospect.


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40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13053 times:

Is Hajj coming up?

Indonesia is quite a muslim country and all that jazz.



AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 12999 times:

Actually Lion Air has quite a good fleet, they operate 23 B737-900ER, they were also the launch customer.

Its good to see Lion Air and GA receiving new B737NG. Is the B744 only going to be used for Hajj? Or maybe new routes?



seemyseems
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 12962 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 2):
Is the B744 only going to be used for Hajj? Or maybe new routes?

The initial plan is CGK-JED daily.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4742 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 12735 times:

Although it states that the 747-400 is ex-Oasis, the code 747-412 means it was initially delivered to SQ. This will be the 2nd time Lion Air (JT) has gotten an aircraft from SQ - the previous one was an A310 which strangely never got off the ground and remained parked in Changi in Lion's old colours for a long time. I am not sure if this was because they eventually went for a Yak-42 (go figure!).

While JT has a lot of lofty plans, having an aircraft painted doesn't necessarily means these plans will come to fruition (as in the case of the A310). Therefore, I am of the opinion to wait and see of CGK-JED actually takes off. Fellow Indonesian based a.netters would sing the same tune too especially when this airline is concerned.



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineAfterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12636 times:

CGK-JED is a quite busy route, carrying Umrah pilgrims and migrant workers. According to a reliable source, another Indonesian airline, Batavia Air, is also going to fly the route with A330s.

User currently offlineLeftwing From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12518 times:

the Lion story continues...they add airplanes and remain a highly un-safe operation...

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 5):
CGK-JED is a quite busy route,

...agree Lion will make a killing on it ...


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12499 times:



Quoting TDubJFK (Thread starter):
Frightening prospect.

Not sure where this thing is going to fly with 2 engines missing...



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineGFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12400 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 2):
Actually Lion Air has quite a good fleet, they operate 23 B737-900ER

Yeah, and how many have they tailscraped already?!


User currently offlineScanorama From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 11604 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 2):
Actually Lion Air has quite a good fleet, they operate 23 B737-900ER, they were also the launch customer.

It's not just about hardware but software matters too! I'd say software (attitude of the staff, maintenance etc) is way more important than the actual aircrafts themselves.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11607 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11228 times:

I hope the interiors have been updated a bit; I flew both of the 744s they're getting whilst still with Oasis and they really needed attention back then.


...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10378 times:



Quoting Leftwing (Reply 6):
the Lion story continues...they add airplanes and remain a highly un-safe operation...

Just how bad is their safety record?

Quoting Scanorama (Reply 9):
It's not just about hardware but software matters too! I'd say software (attitude of the staff, maintenance etc) is way more important than the actual aircrafts themselves.

 checkmark  Example...DL/NW DC-9s are still flying 40 some-odd years



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6791 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10310 times:



Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
Not sure where this thing is going to fly with 2 engines missing...

Maybe they think that since the A330 is a 2-engined A340, if you take 2 engines off a 747 you get a 767....  duck 



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6751 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9901 times:

This has been well covered in other topics...

Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 2):
Actually Lion Air has quite a good fleet, they operate 23 B737-900ER, they were also the launch customer.

Its good to see Lion Air and GA receiving new B737NG. Is the B744 only going to be used for Hajj? Or maybe new routes?

Plus several MD80s with several thousand hours missing in the logbooks since their delivery/handover to Lion... (go figure)...

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 4):
Although it states that the 747-400 is ex-Oasis, the code 747-412 means it was initially delivered to SQ. This will be the 2nd time Lion Air (JT) has gotten an aircraft from SQ - the previous one was an A310 which strangely never got off the ground and remained parked in Changi in Lion's old colours for a long time. I am not sure if this was because they eventually went for a Yak-42 (go figure!).

While JT has a lot of lofty plans, having an aircraft painted doesn't necessarily means these plans will come to fruition (as in the case of the A310). Therefore, I am of the opinion to wait and see of CGK-JED actually takes off. Fellow Indonesian based a.netters would sing the same tune too especially when this airline is concerned.

Well, the A310 project was actually AFTER the Yak42 ops...
They started with the Yak42s and 1 732...
The Indonesian DGAC refused to accept the Yak42 onto the Indonesian register (go figure...)

Lofty plans? What happened to "Lion Air Australia", "Lion Air Vietnam", "Lion Air Myanmar", "Lion Air Thailand", and "Lion Air Malaysia" all gone to????

The Lion Air Australia I'll answer below... Lion Air Vietnam is history after their client Pacific Airlines decided to tie up with Jetstar instead of Lion Air... Lion Air Thailand isn't going to take off because there are quite a few Indonesian and non-Indonesian pilots who are ex-Lion flying in Thailand... mind you, according to insiders at 12Go, Lion did express interest in 12Go, but since the Phuket crash, Udom has been trying to get rid off the unsafe image and practices... guess what, there's quite a few ex Lion crew in 12Go (who left because of safety concerns)... I guessed those guys just went to Udom and said, "Sir, don't bother considering the Lion offer unless you want to go back to pre-Phuket days"... Lion Air Myanmar is err... hang on... WHAT??? MYANMAR???? OK, that leaves... Malaysia... now this is interesting, Lion Air Malaysia has disappeared off the media headlines... perhaps it's because BOTH Tony Fernandez and Idris Jala are just "too eager to compete"... Hehehehe

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 5):
CGK-JED is a quite busy route, carrying Umrah pilgrims and migrant workers. According to a reliable source, another Indonesian airline, Batavia Air, is also going to fly the route with A330s.

Yes... CGK-JED and "several domestic routes"... CGK-MES, CGK-SUB, and CGK-DPS are suspected... This was one of the reasons that prompted Batavia Air to get the A332s early... to defend their CGK-MES route and give Lion a run for its money on the CGK-JED route.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 11):
Just how bad is their safety record?

That 732 was on the top 3 oldest 732s to make it into the Indonesian register in the last decade (again... go figure)... that was PK-LIA
That 732 was then joined by another, PK-LID, again, it's on the top5 oldest I am sure (go and figure yet again), which crashed in Pekanbaru because of "lack of flap deployment and non-pertinent conversations leading to omissions of checklists"... again... go figure....
So they dumped the Yak42 after giving up trying to put it on the Indonesian register, and sent them back... they then started with the A310s...
These A310s were ex AWAir, which, according to industrial sources, "were leased at a very attractive rates, in which the lessor would then charge a hideous amount in a price revision where your choices are limited to 3. Send it back, pay the new price, or sell them part of your share to keep the lease rates low"... Again, why did Lion deal with these guys???? Go and figure...
So, in comes the MD80s...
The MD80s were marketed as "newer than the 732s in operation in Indonesia"... well, guess what, >50% of Lion's MD80s are older than >50% of the 732s in Indonesia then... why? Go figure...

The MD80s were regular events on the news headlines here with runway overruns... (I mean REGULAR... heck, we can hear about it once a month at one stage!)... and the worst was the crash in Solo City... again... go and figure...

Then they got the 734s and MD90s... they claimed the 734 lessor, GECAS, was a Boeing subsidiary and the MD90 lessor, CIT, was an MD subsidiary... again... go and figure...

After someone publicly posted an email where it states CIT officially denying any dealings with Lion Air or on MD90s, Lion quickly recanted a series of Press releases, and said it was "the journalist misquoting"... again... go and figure...

The MD90s have had its run in the media headlines too! "Slewing off taxiways and runways" were a common occurence... go and figure why...

When on one (or was it at least once) occasion an MD90's nosewheel left the paved surface while doing a 180 degree turn at the end of a runway, the company said "it only went off by a meter!" Again... go and figure...

When MD90 nosewheels kept leaving the paved surface during 180 turns... you'd wonder... "SO WHO DID THEIR HOMEWORK????" And this happened several times at a few airports!

When a passenger sued Lion for forcing him to fly without a seatbelt... go and figure! (Lion was found guilty and was fined.... wait for it... 1/4 US Cents!!!!!!!!)

Quoting GFFgold (Reply 8):
Yeah, and how many have they tailscraped already?!

Oh yeah, officially? ONE... but, we know there has been a few... of course, several eyewitnesses on several other cases... the last of which was a tailscrape on departure... and they continued to the destination (3.5hrs away!)!!! Nice safe decision...
OK, on the sole officially acknowledged tailscrape... they said the airplane "rotated itself at 60 knots and ended up on its tail prompting the crew to abort the take off"... GO AND FIGURE!!!!!

Why did they fail the safety audit by the CASA Australia 3x prompting the end of the "Lion Air Australia" venture and plans for Lion Air (Indonesia) to fly Indonesia-Australia... GO AND FIGURE...

Of course, the list goes on and on...
There are several lawsuits against several pilots who quit after citing safety concerns... (Doesn't this remind you of.... ADAM AIR????? Go and figure!)

OK, back to the 744...
Now apart from the ex Garuda 747 crews they (somehow) managed to get, why is it that none of the Lion crew with previous widebody experience were all rejected from going on the 744 pool, and those with NO widebody experience made it into the 744 pool? Again and again... GO AND FIGURE!

This is an airline that at one stage, offered pilots 75k USD to move to Lion and saw no takers... GO AND FIGURE WHY!!!

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9736 times:



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 13):

Dear Lord!!!  Wow! That's awful that an airline would take such risk.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineTDubJFK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 9676 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 14):
Dear Lord!!! That's awful that an airline would take such risk.

Well, you are talking about Indonesia here ... not the most aviation-safety oriented place.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
Not sure where this thing is going to fly with 2 engines missing...

I wonder if they've even noticed.


User currently offlineLeftWing From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9561 times:



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 13):
CASA Australia 3x prompting

...Boeing offered to help...Rusdi ..told Boeing you are too expensive....this has been the constant thought process for all Indonesian airline management...spend money on "crazy" things like safety & training...
 Sad


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4742 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9447 times:



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 13):
The Indonesian DGAC refused to accept the Yak42 onto the Indonesian register (go figure...)

Wait a minute... DGAC refused to accept registration and yet they operated a fleet of them?!  faint 



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineLeftWing From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9425 times:



Quoting GFFgold (Reply 8):
Yeah, and how many have they tailscraped already?!

..has Boeing or someone published these incidents.... and who has been repairing these tail strikes...if structural damage is missed by a shabby repair job...it could result in a decompression...


User currently offlineGFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9384 times:

I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing don't keep an ear to the ground regards Lion's tailscrapes and other minor transgressions but only 1 has been officially admitted. It would be very embarrasing indeed if your launch customer went on to total one of the first run of frames...

Do they have rostering back yet, Mandala499, or are flight crews still on call via SMS?


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6751 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9270 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 14):
That's awful that an airline would take such risk.

I said the same thing about Adam Air, no one listened... until one took a plunge into the sea...
Lion Air is a constant struggle between the risk takers and the safety vanguards nowadays... glad to know the latter is winning, albeit the pace is slowwwwwww.... can't change things overnight.

The most successful safety turnaround to date here is Mandala, even then, that took a total change in management and about a year to turn things around...

The safety advocates within Lion need all the support they can get, and external support is something they're short of , so it seems...

Quoting LeftWing (Reply 16):
...Boeing offered to help...Rusdi ..told Boeing you are too expensive....this has been the constant thought process for all Indonesian airline management...spend money on "crazy" things like safety & training...

Lion has spent a lot on "safety & training"... but it turned quickly into safety vs "indoctrination".

Certain aspects of safety has improved, but those that are less apparent still got some way to go, that's the info I got from within.

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 17):
Wait a minute... DGAC refused to accept registration and yet they operated a fleet of them?!

It was operated under RA-42* registration, and was barred from domestic operations.

In the meantime... I don't plan to get on one of their planes anytime soon.



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineN757KW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9044 times:

Gee Mandala499, you made me feel like I took my life into my own hands last week! OK actually I was being cheap and I was taking my life into to my own hands. I took Lion both ways on my last trip to PLM in May. They are just so damn cheap compared to Garuda. I know, you get what you pay for.  tongue 

N757KW



"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6751 posts, RR: 76
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8932 times:

N757KW,
U derserved it for not giving me a call!  Smile

Just kidding...

The nightmare list is so long but delving into them and writing it here would only jeopardize the safety of the information sources... unfortunately...

*sigh*

Quoting GFFgold (Reply 19):
Do they have rostering back yet, Mandala499, or are flight crews still on call via SMS?

Affirm... their implementation of the geneva system isn't working... 80% of the time the schedule gets revised... and the schedule by SMS still rule in Lion...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8886 times:



Quoting LeftWing (Reply 16):
spend money on "crazy" things like safety & training...

because unfortunately there probably isn't much money left after politicians and executives take their "share"


User currently offlineN757KW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 8778 times:



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 22):
U derserved it for not giving me a call!

You may very well hear from me come September. I will be back for my kids birthday and Id.

I have never been fond of Lion Air. But, I have never had any real problems with them either. Just wonder if they will run the B737-900ER off the runway in PLM when they do the 180. However, it seems that PLM finally reopened the taxiway to 11. No scraping yet either, but I bet it will happen eventually.

N757KW



"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
25 LeftWing : heard a story...they now have a highly updated safety FOQA system running at Lion but no one is qualified to use it...its the same with the aircraft d
26 Malaysia : Waste of money to update it, the Umrah pilgrims will take souvernirs, so try to let them get some former Oasis cabin pieces and sell them on ebay
27 Afterburner : Are you trying to joke? Your comment is not funny and moreover it is insulting.
28 QFMel : This is indeed a most disturbing universe. My experience of JT has been brief but I didn't have any issues, there was only one time I've had to fly t
29 SQ772 : I've a question that I've been wanting to ask this forum for a long time...Who is the owner of Lion Air? What is his/her background?
30 LeftWing : .... the culture will never change since its Pak Rusdi who dictates these "cost cutting" measures at JT...even if the younger pilots / engineers want
31 Mandala499 : Actually... an MD82 with a solid crew won't help much if you hear what they have to say! A quote from one of them... "One Captain wants the Pilot Mon
32 QFMel : Right. Stating the obvious here, but it's more than a little silly to be buying 739s en masse though while remaining unwilling to invest in an effect
33 GFFgold : As regards income, I'm not convinced that many domestic pax worry too much about safety record when choosing who to fly with - or they may worry abou
34 LeftWing : ..this has to come top down...only if the management realizes its cost effective to instill a safety culture...
35 QFMel : Hopefully those market conditions don't prevail indefinitely- someone needs to take leadership on this. This is one of the few areas of commerce wher
36 Paparadzi : As of today June 12th 2009 the aircraft is still at the same spot with the same condition I wonder why..
37 Mandala499 : We are hearing the first revenue flight planned for end of June might be postponed... but no official word yet.
38 Seemyseems : Oh, sorry for not knowing that! Does LionAir have plans for l/h routes, maybe more B744's?
39 Ryanair!!! : This is hardly surprising, isn't it?
40 QFMel : Never fear. If the use of the 744 on that route never eventuates, you could lay all of JT's 739s that are on order from end to end and walk from CGK
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