Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3139 posts, RR: 14 Posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9315 times:
Hey all,
I came across a really bizarre summer rotation schedule for HNL regarding NW/DL. Unless I'm missing something, they've constructed what I think is an impossible aircraft rotation schedule unless they intend to have an insane amount of aircraft ferrying. For the purposes of this thread, I'm only focuses on the widebodies to & through HNL, none of the 757's or west coast flights.
(Just for example dates, I'm using 07JUL and 08JUL)
Now.... is it just me or are there more daily A333 departures from HNL than there are arrivals?? Further, are there more 744 flights into HNL than there are flights out?? Unless I'm missing something big, this schedule that DL has constructed is completely impossible to operate, for obvious reasons. I'm guessing they don't intend to ferry planes around given how astronomically expensive that would be. So... does anyone know if the final schedule is not yet completed or what??
DLHFLYER From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 184 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9203 times:
Well for one, on August 17, MSP-HNL goes 5 weekly, with no service on Tuesday's and Wednesday's. So, I would guess that they could rotate these if not all the flights operated everyday, but I don't no anything about their situation in HNL.
Duluth is a nice city, we even get 3 months without snow per year
DeltaCTO From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 278 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9150 times:
This is one of DL's schedule changes - where not everything gets updated at the same time.
In July - NW22 will operate as a A-333 Dept 8:55pm/Arrive 9:25am Same Day
Isitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 26 Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9064 times:
Wheres the west coast-Hawaii trips?
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3139 posts, RR: 14 Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9016 times:
Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 1): Well for one, on August 17, MSP-HNL goes 5 weekly,
That's getting into the off-season for Hawaii though, but thanks for the info I didn't know about the reduction.
Quoting DeltaCTO (Reply 2): This is one of DL's schedule changes - where not everything gets updated at the same time.
In July - NW22 will operate as a A-333 Dept 8:55pm/Arrive 9:25am Same Day
Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter): For the purposes of this thread, I'm only focusing on the widebodies to & through HNL, none of the 757's or west coast flights.
Isitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 26 Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8917 times:
Luv767s From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 265 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8800 times:
They have made several strange changes recently with HNL. A few days ago they canceled the second HNL-NRT flight #21 for a few days next week. I was on #21 next Thursday and they moved me to flight 29 which leaves 4+ hours earlier. They have made so many changes to my itinerary over the past 6 months, I almost feel like I need to check it daily to make sure things don't mess up.
-"...never have I been a blue calm sea, I have always been a storm"
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21240 posts, RR: 19 Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8267 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 4): Quoting DeltaCTO (Reply 2):
This is one of DL's schedule changes - where not everything gets updated at the same time.
In July - NW22 will operate as a A-333 Dept 8:55pm/Arrive 9:25am Same Day
Great, that answers it, thanks!!
FWIW, for the past 6 months or so, DL hasn't been very careful about loading complete schedule changes, so there has been a lot of this going on. I anticipate (more like I hope) that as we move toward a SOC and beyond, these problems will abate.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Pohakuloa From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 370 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8073 times:
I dont know if this pertains to this though it may be relevant, this morning at HNL there was an A333 parked on a hardstand on the north ramp. This is a rare occasion to see one of them parked there.
If this does become a regular event (prolonged parking on a turn) then it could explain where that "extra" A333 comes from.
BTW, I remember reading that DL/NW were to start A332 service to/from/through HNL. Any news on when that rotation might begin?
EXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8000 times:
First problem I see is that you need to use the same day both directions.
Flights leaving Japan on the 7th of July arrive in HNL on the 7th, not the 8th. So the turns back to NRT are on the 7th. If some flights operate on the 7th but not the 8th as a 744 or 330, then that explains your problem
The only thing I see that is odd is a 55 min turn on a 744 from ATL-HNL back to ATL
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3139 posts, RR: 14 Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7475 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7): I anticipate (more like I hope) that as we move toward a SOC and beyond, these problems will abate.
I know, right. Hopefully they'll be done soon enough.
Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 8): I dont know if this pertains to this though it may be relevant, this morning at HNL there was an A333 parked on a hardstand on the north ramp. This is a rare occasion to see one of them parked there.
As far as I know, for A330 rotations to and through HNL, there is a RON bird in HNL each night, so I think that's a nightly occurrence now to see one in remote parking.
Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 8): BTW, I remember reading that DL/NW were to start A332 service to/from/through HNL. Any news on when that rotation might begin?
I was hoping they would do this.
Given the old schedule NW had with A332's on SEA-NRT, SEA-AMS, PDX-NRT, and PDX-AMS, the A332's rotated through the system rather easily.
Now SEA-NRT and SEA-AMS are both A333. PDX-NRT and PDX-AMS are now DL 763's. With those routes gone to other types, those A332's in the Pacific are essentially stranded there, with no rotations through the system. Since SFO-NRT and SLC-NRT remained as their only TransPac routes, I actually half expected to see SLC-CDG upgraded to A332 from 763.
However, if the A332's are routed NRT-HNL-MSP, they can accomplish the same rotation that way. So, hopefully this does come into play in a future schedule change.
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 9): First problem I see is that you need to use the same day both directions
Not really, as the Pacific schedules don't vary by day. Well... the TransPac flights do, to some extent, but the HNL and 'south' flights do not. So, no matter which days I chose, the schedule is the same anyway.
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 9): If some flights operate on the 7th but not the 8th as a 744 or 330, then that explains your problem
No, no problem, it showed it as that through the entire schedule. Reply 2 answered this for us.
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 9): The only thing I see that is odd is a 55 min turn on a 744 from ATL-HNL back to ATL
Impossible to do a scheduled turn on a 744 in 55 minutes.
HNL, in addition to rotating A330's, will also be used to rotate the 744's. The NRT-HNL 744 will take the outbound HNL-ATL. The ATL-HNL bird will RON in HNL. The RON bird will do the morning HNL-NRT. So, essentially, HNL will see three different NW/DL 744's each day, despite only having two dep/arr's.
Eghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6210 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter): Now.... is it just me or are there more daily A333 departures from HNL than there are arrivals?? Further, are there more 744 flights into HNL than there are flights out?? Unless I'm missing something big, this schedule that DL has constructed is completely impossible to operate, for obvious reasons. I'm guessing they don't intend to ferry planes around given how astronomically expensive that would be. So... does anyone know if the final schedule is not yet completed or what??
As someone who has constructed many flight plans for MSFS, this scenario is quite common. Very frequently, a flight will go in as one type and out as another. Because that scenario can't be implemented in MSFS, one aircraft has to be changed.
You have to understand that the airlines are under no obligation whatsoever to correctly specify the type of aircraft flying a route. They do it as a courtesy, but do not have to. That is one of the reasons that many airlines will specify aircraft as "equipment varies". They also use codes such as 32S which means 318/319/320/321.
They have programs that can automatically switch seat assignments on aircraft so that if a flight changes from a 333 to a 744, all the aisle passengers will remain on the aisle and couples will be seated together etc. If it is done far enough in advance, they programs will place about 85% of the pax in the same seat number (say 32F) on the new aircraft type if they are both about the same size.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21240 posts, RR: 19 Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3708 times:
Quoting Eghansen (Reply 11): As someone who has constructed many flight plans for MSFS, this scenario is quite common. Very frequently, a flight will go in as one type and out as another. Because that scenario can't be implemented in MSFS, one aircraft has to be changed.
I'm confused (perhaps because I don't know what MSFS is and am not sure what you mean by "going in as one type and out as another"). UA and (legacy) NW show equipment changes on the same flight number in the schedule all the time.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Eghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3473 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12): I'm confused (perhaps because I don't know what MSFS is and am not sure what you mean by "going in as one type and out as another"). UA and (legacy) NW show equipment changes on the same flight number in the schedule all the time.
Sorry about that.
MSFS is Microsoft Flight Simulator. It is a simulation program used to fly airplanes. As part of its functions, it can be loaded with real schedules of real airlines so that their flights operate in the simulation.
In order to do this, you download all the flights of a certain airline either from their website or from a third source such as the OAG. It is very common when preparing these schedules for them to show a 767 flying to a certain city on a certain day and and a 777 on the only possible return flight which makes no sense. Thus you have to adjust by changing one of the aircraft shown in the schedule.
As I said before, the aircraft designated in flight schedules are not official and often not accurate. I myself remember flying a flight JFK-MXP on AZ which showed an MD11 when I booked it, but was a 767 when I got to JFK.
The aircraft types shown in flight schedules are not used by the airline for anything. They have their own aircraft scheduling software and rarely schedule aircraft more than a month into the future anyway. There is no obligation for an airline to inform passengers of the aircraft type at all and many use the generic moniker "equipment varies" when they don't know what aircraft they will be using on a flight.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4721 posts, RR: 15 Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2387 times:
Quoting Eghansen (Reply 13): MSFS is Microsoft Flight Simulator. It is a simulation program used to fly airplanes. As part of its functions, it can be loaded with real schedules of real airlines so that their flights operate in the simulation.
In order to do this, you download all the flights of a certain airline either from their website or from a third source such as the OAG.
Pardon me for continuing to be very confused by what you are saying, E. G. I assume you are talking about a game (Flight Simulator.)
Quoting Eghansen (Reply 13): It is very common when preparing these schedules for them to show a 767 flying to a certain city on a certain day and and a 777 on the only possible return flight which makes no sense. Thus you have to adjust by changing one of the aircraft shown in the schedule.
As I said before, the aircraft designated in flight schedules are not official and often not accurate. I myself remember flying a flight JFK-MXP on AZ which showed an MD11 when I booked it, but was a 767 when I got to JFK.
The aircraft types shown in flight schedules are not used by the airline for anything. They have their own aircraft scheduling software and rarely schedule aircraft more than a month into the future anyway. There is no obligation for an airline to inform passengers of the aircraft type at all and many use the generic moniker "equipment varies" when they don't know what aircraft they will be using on a flight
Let me say that as someone who has studied airline schedules practically my whole life, created my own turn schedules, and learned a LOT about the subject, airline schedules in fact DO reflect accurate equipment assignments to the maximum extent possible. They have in the past, and they continue to now.
There are certainly mistakes made and corrected a.s.a.p. but believe me, airlines do NOT randomly pick an a/c type to show for a particular flight!
There are MANY premium-level frequent flyers out there (and we hear from many of them often here on A.net) who create their itineraries based on a/c type found in flight schedules published by the airlines. (When I worked in corporate travel, I knew which upper management people wanted what type of plane and I filled their requests whenever possible. Either the seating configuration or upgrading where obviously the primary reasons for their preferences.)
The airlines need to get equipment as accurate as possible, and as far ahead as possible, or they would have major revolts by their platinum-level ffs!
Just read many of the threads right here on A.net and follow the discussions of the experts who create airline turn schedules for a living and can account for every a/c in the fleet and know their exact rotations.
Substitutions are, unfortunately, a fact of life and reaccomodating a full flight on a different a/c type is generally NOT easy and usually leaves many angry passengers for the airline to deal with. This is not a labor-intensive process that the airlines want to deal with unless it is really necessary.
Eghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2308 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 14): There are certainly mistakes made and corrected a.s.a.p. but believe me, airlines do NOT randomly pick an a/c type to show for a particular flight!
I did not say that they picked the aircraft randomly. There is usually one or two different equipment types operated on a route and change is between the two. In this case, it is an A333 and B744.
Quoting SANFan (Reply 14): There are MANY premium-level frequent flyers out there (and we hear from many of them often here on A.net) who create their itineraries based on a/c type found in flight schedules published by the airlines.
Those premium-level FFs are not usually found on flights to HNL. Flights to resorts are more subject to equipment changes than others because of bulk sales. I remember at Continental airlines that our flights IAH-CUN were subject to frequent equipment changes sometimes upgrading from an MD80 to an A300.
Airlines in general can be more accurate with their domestic US routes where they have huge fleets. For example, if AA says that they are flying an MD80 on a certain route, they probably will because they have 275 of them.
But on international routes, there may have only 5 examples of an aircraft type at a hub, they have to change type if their is a scheduling or maintenance problem because they do not have much flexibility.
Quoting SANFan (Reply 14): The airlines need to get equipment as accurate as possible, and as far ahead as possible, or they would have major revolts by their platinum-level ffs!
Airlines are not worried about "revolts" by their FFs because they change from a B744 to an A333. That is for the travel agent to worry about.
Quoting SANFan (Reply 14): Just read many of the threads right here on A.net and follow the discussions of the experts who create airline turn schedules for a living and can account for every a/c in the fleet and know their exact rotations.
Airline experts do create comprehensive turn schedules and spend great effort to make them as efficient as possible. Among other things, such schedules are needed for crew scheduling. But they prepare their turn schedules on computer systems that are not open to the public nor are they directly connected to the schedules published on their booking websites.
**********
The original question in this thread was why did the schedules show an operation that was impossible. This (as I said) is something that I have often encountered when trying to prepare flightplans for use with MSFS. If you don't like my answer, then you should come up with a better explanation.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21240 posts, RR: 19 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2242 times:
Quoting Eghansen (Reply 15): But on international routes, there may have only 5 examples of an aircraft type at a hub, they have to change type if their is a scheduling or maintenance problem because they do not have much flexibility.
But I think you're missing a key point: the published schedules represent an airline's best guess at what fleet type will operate the route. Once properly-loaded, they generally do not show such things as the imbalance that we're discussing here. Clearly, though, the schedule at issue here is not yet properly-loaded.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
MSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1569 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2209 times:
Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 1): Well for one, on August 17, MSP-HNL goes 5 weekly, with no service on Tuesday's and Wednesday's.
Woah, color me stunned on this one. Two days straight without service seems to me to be trouble. How about a downgauge instead.
Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 8): I dont know if this pertains to this though it may be relevant, this morning at HNL there was an A333 parked on a hardstand on the north ramp. This is a rare occasion to see one of them parked there.
If this does become a regular event (prolonged parking on a turn) then it could explain where that "extra" A333 comes from.
I was curious as well to why it was there. I think I saw it for at least a whole day's time. N803NW I believe. I took pictures as it was being pulled to gate 11 for service just before I took off for Atlanta.
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 10): As far as I know, for A330 rotations to and through HNL, there is a RON bird in HNL each night, so I think that's a nightly occurrence now to see one in remote parking.
If this is starting June 1st, it maybe can be figured out. N803NW was sitting for a day and was pulled to gate 11 about the same time flight 625 from MSP arrived at gate 13. I was out of there before flight 624 left, but flight status says it left from gate 11, so the usual MSP/HNL/MSP rotation wasn't in play. Maybe a RON is part of the new rotation. But it looks that flight 625 didn't run today, So this is getting confusing.
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 10): HNL, in addition to rotating A330's, will also be used to rotate the 744's. The NRT-HNL 744 will take the outbound HNL-ATL. The ATL-HNL bird will RON in HNL. The RON bird will do the morning HNL-NRT. So, essentially, HNL will see three different NW/DL 744's each day, despite only having two dep/arr's.
Yep, I figured that one out after a week down there watching them fly by. I was at the airport twice, and flew on two of the 747s, and I don't think I saw the same registration twice. They're getting rotated well.
DeltaCTO From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 278 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2180 times:
If you download and install the DELTA FLIGHT SCHEDULES application,
it shows 2 flights NRT/HNL during the month of July - one 744 and one A-333.
Delta's TRAVELNET employee website says exactly the same.
delta.com still shows 2 744's
Hopefully the schedule change will reflect on delta.com very soon.
Now we were always told: ANYTHING ON delta.com IS AUTOMATICALLY CORRECT.
It's hard to sell that to a customer when you know something isnt right
Slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2454 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2133 times:
Quoting DLHFLYER (Reply 1): Well for one, on August 17, MSP-HNL goes 5 weekly, with no service on Tuesday's and Wednesday's
I see DL downgrading this to 767 service eventually once a rotation can be created.
I don't even see why MSP-HNL is needed in the future. Are there many/any cities with significant O&D to HNL that cannot be connected to HNL thru ATL, SLC, LAX, or SEA with the same one-stop service? Seems like this A330 could be put on a much more profitable route then MSP-HNL. I don't see DL being that concerned with keeping it when the A330 could be used on a more profitable route. NWA started the route and i think DL will slowly end it starting with downgrades
Eghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2090 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16): But I think you're missing a key point: the published schedules represent an airline's best guess at what fleet type will operate the route. Once properly-loaded, they generally do not show such things as the imbalance that we're discussing here. Clearly, though, the schedule at issue here is not yet properly-loaded.
I absolutely agree that published schedules represent an airline's best guess. I don't think that airlines are trying to be deceptive. But they are under no obligation to be completely accurate. There is no legal requirement, for example, that the aircraft shown are the true ones. The same is true with meals shown in airline schedules.
Generally, airline schedules and information become more accurate the closer you get to departure date. Generally, the airline has to be finalize their schedules by the 15th-20th of the month because that is when the pilots bid for the next month's assignments. At that point, it becomes difficult to change aircraft because an A330 pilot can't fly a B744 and vice versa.
I don't mean to imply that the aircraft shown in schedules are widely inaccurate. From what I have seen combing through them when preparing flightplans, they are probably 97% accurate in aircraft designation. But if an airline has 2000 flights per day, that still leaves 60 flights per day that are incorrectly loaded.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2054 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 10): I actually half expected to see SLC-CDG upgraded to A332 from 763.
same here.
Quoting Slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 19): I don't even see why MSP-HNL is needed in the future. Are there many/any cities with significant O&D to HNL that cannot be connected to HNL thru ATL, SLC, LAX, or SEA with the same one-stop service? Seems like this A330 could be put on a much more profitable route then MSP-HNL. I don't see DL being that concerned with keeping it when the A330 could be used on a more profitable route. NWA started the route and i think DL will slowly end it starting with downgrades
Because it makes money? Because its a good way to get 333s into NRT? little bit of both?
NW alone has SEA,LAX,SFO,PDX,MSP-HNL. Delta adds LAX,SLC,ATL flights. If it works pre-merger it will work post. (BTW why would i backtrack to go via Atlanta?)
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6518 posts, RR: 11 Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1949 times:
Zero sense. MSP can serve as a funnel in and of itself as it is a hub. Why would you have people double connect. I can only imagine the location alone of MSP will sell seats. I mean, who wants to be in that weather during the winter months .
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1871 times:
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 22): Zero sense. MSP can serve as a funnel in and of itself as it is a hub. Why would you have people double connect. I can only imagine the location alone of MSP will sell seats. I mean, who wants to be in that weather during the winter months .
I agree. IMO MSP will be get feed from the NYC hubs,DET hub and CVG hub.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
Pohakuloa From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 370 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1779 times:
Quoting Slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 19): I see DL downgrading this to 767 service eventually once a rotation can be created.
I don't even see why MSP-HNL is needed in the future. Are there many/any cities with significant O&D to HNL that cannot be connected to HNL thru ATL, SLC, LAX, or SEA with the same one-stop service? Seems like this A330 could be put on a much more profitable route then MSP-HNL. I don't see DL being that concerned with keeping it when the A330 could be used on a more profitable route. NWA started the route and i think DL will slowly end it starting with downgrades
Every time I have flown on the HNL-MSP-HNL flights they have always been practically if not totally full. Most people I have seen on the HNL-MSP flight transfer on to the eastern seaboard on connecting flights. It is much similar on the return.
In general I never quite understood the "myth" that Hawaii flights are not profitable or difficult to fill.
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From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3139 posts, 
Zero sense. MSP can serve as a funnel in and of itself as it is a hub. Why would you have people double connect. I can only imagine the location alone of MSP will sell seats. I mean, who wants to be in that weather during the winter months 
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