Moderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 72518 times:
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RFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 4866 posts, RR: 21 Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 72587 times:
Carried over from thread #4
Quote: Quoting STT757 (Reply 313):
The US has highly sensitive underwater listening stations known as "SOSUS" that were used to track Soviet Subs across the Atlantic and the Pacific, some stations were closed after the cold war but a few are still in operation although their locations are a secret.
Sosus has been declassified for about 18 years, and the locations of the arrays is well known. Even back in 1979-82 when I was stationed at NAVFAC Antigua.
Some of the arrays were pulled up in the early 80's when we closed Eleuthera, Grand Turk and Barbados. The main consolidation though was due to increased communciation bandwidth and computerization. That eliminated the need for the monitoring of the array to be done locally. more and more positions were transferred to Dam Neck in the Atlantic and Whidbey in the Pacific.
Antigua's array is still in operation, I'm not sure if the Barbados array is still operating. It had not been pulled up last I heard. The Sosus system is today quite often used for scientific research.
Several times during the 1979-82 time frame, we on Antigua were able to give NASA and the USAF very close locations of rocket impacts in the region. We could also sometime track whales.
However the crash area is far away from any arrays - very doubtful that anything could be picked up near Brazil. Also there are current layer issues with trying to pick up sound across the equator and in the equatorial regions.
There was never any defense need to monitor that region on a regular basis. There was a consideration when Antigua tracked a couple Soviet boats on approximate tracks to either Angola, or a transfer to the Pacific.
In the late 80's and early 90's the US Navy put most of their technology into model arrays - which could be towed behind ships. SURTASS is the current deployable system - with 5 ships in the US Navy's Military Sealift Command.
If one of those ships was in the region and had the array streamed out, it possibly could have picked up something.
WindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1306 posts, RR: 62 Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 72240 times:
Hello All,
Can someone please summarise the facts for those who are just viewing these threads. It would be difficult to go through over 900 posts. Please someone bring us up to date with what's been conspiring so far. Thank you!
Best regards,
WindowSeat
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
Khobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 72258 times:
A TAM flight spotted orange points of light purportedly on the ocean surface - in an area covered by thunderstorms? Was he flying under the clouds?
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 71756 times:
Quoting Khobar (Reply 3): A TAM flight spotted orange points of light purportedly on the ocean surface - in an area covered by thunderstorms? Was he flying under the clouds?
Could it be that the TAM aircraft spotted this after clearing the storm? Otherwise, that wouldn't make a whole lotta sense.
B747forever From Sweden, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 16085 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 71646 times:
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4): Could it be that the TAM aircraft spotted this after clearing the storm? Otherwise, that wouldn't make a whole lotta sense.
Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8522 posts, RR: 22 Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 71596 times:
Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 2): Can someone please summarise the facts for those who are just viewing these threads. It would be difficult to go through over 900 posts. Please someone bring us up to date with what's been conspiring so far. Thank you!
AF 447 was to go from Rio to CDG, but encountered turbulance while in a cluster of Storms out in the Atlantic. Both CDG and Rio lost contact with the plane just after 2:30 am local time. 18 minutes later, AF 447 goes blank from the radar, and it's assumed that the plane crashed in the ocean. It's hopeful that it had a miraculous ditching like the US flight in the Hudson...
Right now, search and rescue teams have been assembled... I hope that's brief yet descriptive enough.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
B747forever From Sweden, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 16085 posts, RR: 12 Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 71357 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 6): It's hopeful that it had a miraculous ditching like the US flight in the Hudson...
Well such a ditching, if it happened, wouldnt help them anyway because it has been now more than 24hours since the a/c was lost.
SKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 789 posts, RR: 5 Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 71364 times:
¡What a terrible lose!
A QF A330 suffered no long time ago a problem with the autopilot and did lose altitude. Maybe this accident have nothing to do with the Qantas' A-330 incident, but wreckage must be analyzed in order to reach any hypothesis, including (i hope not) a terrorist attack. It's going to take a lot of time to do it, but at the end it will be key, just like happened with the EgyptAir 990 in 1999.
My (and I think the entire a.net comunity) deepest sympathies for the families. Finding out the truth is a right, specially for the people who has lost a broter, a father, a spouse or a friend in a air accident ...because the uncertainty, the doubt is always the worst when your loved ones disappear.
Tomascubero From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2005, 519 posts, RR: 12 Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 71378 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 6): Right now, search and rescue teams have been assembled... I hope that's brief yet descriptive enough.
And by now it has been reported by multiple news agencies that it is possible that a TAM aicraft flying over the area has seen a fuzzy string of debris/orange lights on the ocean surface near the supposed crash site and the FAB is looking into this report.
Here is one article where the Brazlian Folha Online has reported the TAM sighting:
FuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1995 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 71260 times:
Quoting B747forever (Reply 7): Well such a ditching, if it happened, wouldnt help them anyway because it has been now more than 24hours since the a/c was lost.
Unfortunately, we cannot keep hoping for something like this because once a plane has been missing for several hours, then after a long search, nothing is found, then there is no hope at all. The only closure for the families will be to find out how their loved ones died and of course the payment they will recieve.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 756 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 71170 times:
Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 246):
The cockpit can become a SERIOUSLY confusing setting when things hit all at once...If the cabin pressure dropped at the same time or BECAUSE of a non normal electrical failure, then getting the masks on in the dark and flying the plane down manually...it could all cause chaos and confusion...also, if autopilot is not working, then overstressing the airframe could be an issue too...
Great post. Also, good to see you back on a.net.
When I went through Airbus school several years back, I went through at ANACS MIA and had management types there doing the training. I was skepticle of the airplane and the fbw so I asked a lot, I mean a lot, of questions. Regarding a total loss of AC power and total loss of hydraulics, I was told that the chances were 10 to the power of 9 to 1 of it happening so it really wasn't a consideration. I had a hard time containing my expression of emotion to that one. I couldn't agree more with most of your post. If they were down to DC power wow were they screwed. I do think that it is possible for them to get into weather so rough that it can take systems off line, including the AC electrical. I've had a lot of goofy electrical issues in airplanes so I wouldn't rule anything out. I have also been through extreme turbulence once. We cracked the spar and the hail did a lot of exterior damage, all due to a radar failure. Whatever it was, I agree that it had to be a series of multiple failures caused by something and I'm sure the crew went down fighting.
B747forever From Sweden, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 16085 posts, RR: 12 Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 71020 times:
Quoting SKY1 (Reply 8): QF A330 suffered no long time ago a problem with the autopilot and did lose altitude.
It has already been mentioned by several members. But I dont really want to buy that as a reason for this because the a/c was up in cruise, 35,000feet, and I doubt it just went down because of the autopilot from 35,000 feet into the ocean.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11009 posts, RR: 64 Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 70826 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 10): Unfortunately, we cannot keep hoping for something like this because once a plane has been missing for several hours, then after a long search, nothing is found, then there is no hope at all. The only closure for the families will be to find out how their loved ones died and of course the payment they will recieve
That's true, it's too much time since the plane should be landing at CDG. At this time we can only pray for the ones that lost someone on AF447 and hope that authorities can elucidate what happen with the plane, just to avoid another episode and that what happen to families at CDG or GIG could happen to others.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
Rj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1301 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 70818 times:
Quoting B747forever (Reply 7): Well such a ditching, if it happened, wouldnt help them anyway because it has been now more than 24hours since the a/c was lost.
Yeah, unfortunately, you're right. But I just hope the plane (or what's left of it) is found soon so the families can truly begin the grieving process.....
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3175 posts, RR: 29 Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 70684 times:
Quoting B747forever (Reply 12): It has already been mentioned by several members. But I dont really want to buy that as a reason for this because the a/c was up in cruise, 35,000feet, and I doubt it just went down because of the autopilot from 35,000 feet into the ocean.
All that would have had to have happened would be for the AP to overstress the AC to the point of failure. After that altitude is irrelevant. Please note, I *am not* saying that happened, just wanted to point out that you needn't fly the plane down 35,000ft.
[Edited 2009-06-01 21:47:37]
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
Pellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1625 posts, RR: 9 Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 70680 times:
I think looking for traces of wreckage in this case would be a perfect mission for the now retired SR-71. It just popped in my head. Hope the Advanced Keyhole/Misty/Lacrosse/Onyx/whatever they're using satellites see something.
Traveladdict From Malaysia, joined Feb 2009, 42 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 68867 times:
Wow I was so shocked to read about this... Condolences to everyone on board and their families. Right now it seems like an impossible task, to solve this mystery. But I'm sure in due time everything will be known and we might see this case on Aircrash Investigation.
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4437 posts, RR: 34 Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 68727 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 6): but encountered turbulance while in a cluster of Storms out in the Atlantic.
I just have to ask. How do we know they encountered turbulence? Did the pilots report this, and did they mention how severe it was? Was there any crew radio calls made?
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 15101 posts, RR: 69 Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 67935 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 18): I just have to ask. How do we know they encountered turbulence? Did the pilots report this, and did they mention how severe it was? Was there any crew radio calls made?
AFAIK They called in about turbulence.
N314as said:
"I have the feeling that the tail separated in heavy turbulence in a violent yaw. Remember the American A300 over NYC in October 2001. The plane yawed severely following wake turbulence and the entire tail section was severed. !
Not at all the same thing. That crash was caused by the pilot overstressing the rudder while trying to counteract the effects of wake turbulence. A330 has envelope protection which (if working) would not allow such inputs to reach the rudder.
Peergynt said
"But unfortunately flying is definitely not safe. At least that is my opinion."
Oh please. It's far safer than traveling by car. "Safe" is a subjective concept but I would say that it's a stretch to define flying as unsafe.
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
PlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 554 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 67822 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 18): I just have to ask. How do we know they encountered turbulence? Did the pilots report this, and did they mention how severe it was? Was there any crew radio calls made?
From time.com:
"[...] Air France chief executive Pierre-Henri Gourgeon said that at 11:00 p.m. the plane encountered stormy weather and strong turbulence, and shortly thereafter, it sent out an automatic message reporting 'a loss of pressure and a failure of the electrical system.' "
American 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3065 posts, RR: 16 Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 67517 times:
Quoting Rj777 (Reply 14): But I just hope the plane (or what's left of it) is found soon
I also hope that much of the aircraft will be found soon and carried back to land, but the most important thing is the two black boxes are found. That will give more clue to the investigators: what was being said in the cockpit during the last 30 minutes and the flight parameters, that determines whether or not the aircraft was overstressed or not in the last moments of the flight.
My deepest sympathy to the families and loved ones of all those who perished in the ill fated flight AF447.
Ben Soriano
"Aimer jusqu'a l'impossible, c'est possible". Tina Arena.
Brons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2924 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 67528 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 18): I just have to ask. How do we know they encountered turbulence? Did the pilots report this, and did they mention how severe it was? Was there any crew radio calls made?
Well for one thing they have to traverse the Intertropical Convergence Zone on this route...
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
Flywithken From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 222 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 67399 times:
Maybe im a bit of a conspiracy theorist, but why was the media so quick to blame lightning, storms, etc. Maybe the planes demise had NOTHING to do with it. I hate the media for citing the reason although they have not the slightest clue. The media seems to set a tone for the general public to be satisfied with. I am not satisfied and I am mourning the loss although i have not affiliation with anyone involved.
I pray for comfort and healthy coping for all affected by this loss.
Mascmo From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 93 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 67441 times:
"There is information that the pilot of a TAM aircraft saw several orange points on the ocean while flying over the region ... where the Air France plane disappeared,"
25 Starlionblue: That's the way the media works. The worst thing for the media is dead air. They "have to" say something.
26 Bramble: From BBC World News Webpage: 2200Z- Sunday, take off from Rio. 0133Z- Last radar contact. 0200Z- According to AF aircraft entered a "thunderous zone
27 FuturePilot16: Well it's not just the media, everyone else is speculating, it's not that they or anyone else is jumping to conclusions, really and truly they have t
28 Klwright69: I agree with Flywithken 100 percent.. When was the last time weather, and only weather conditions caused a commercial air catastrophe... DL 191 at DFW
29 Spr773: I shudder to think about those poor souls who were in the aircraft. For a moment put yourselves in their shoes....its scary even to imagine what they
30 Caliatenza: and cue the conspiracy theories: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread468622/pg1
31 Virgin744: Not sure I'll get an answer as its more in the realm of NTSB crash investigations but IF the report of TAM pilots are true that they saw debris in the
32 Spr773: Rather than UFO could it be some electromagnetic surge which caused the electronics to fail , perhaps yes , but I am sure that a plane as advanced as
33 Bekol: Sorry if this issue has been raised. IIRC, modern jetliners should have equipped with ELTs in the black boxes and would send out signals to the emerge
34 DocLightning: " target=_blank>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/...2/pg1 He wrote "extreemly." Apparently, he thinks spell checkers are UFO technology? The last
35 PanHAM: The question is, why did Air France take 7 hours to make the loss of the aircraft public? They lost contact to their aircraft, they could not reach th
36 ManuCH: Airliners have ELTs and they transmit on 121.50 MHz and 406 MHz. These signals are designed to be picked up by satellites, but it won't work if the E
37 AA777: Remember TWA 800? Burning wreckage all over the atlantic ocean, and IIRC, that fell from around 18,000 feet. We dont know what happened, so for all w
38 Smcmac32msn: I'm not sure it would take the entire plane (intact) underwater. At the relative speed the plane (or parts of it) would hit the water would break it
39 SASD209: The satellites ceased monitoring 121.5 in Feb of this year. 406 is still covered with ELT's and EPIRB's with 121.5 used as a very short-ranged and lo
40 VirginFlyer: I've been watching CNN International, and I have to say the coverage isn't too bad, all things considered. Yes, you have to take it with a grain of sa
41 Goldorak: sorry to say this but your statement is just ridiculous and out of purpose. Suspicious of what ? Nobody has information, including AF. Almost everyth
42 Caliatenza: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...s-Air-France-plane-228-aboard.html This is really creepy...apparently one of the passenger's cell phone is stil
43 Virgin744: But the NTSB believed that was a bomb or a missile. We are going on the assumtion this wasnt terrorism related (given the current indications and Fre
44 JetA380: Maybe the authorities should try to triangulate the phone and find it's location? The phone may not be with the plane. It may have been left in a hot
45 Vikkyvik: Don't know about other countries' regulatory authorities, but at least for the FAA, that's a requirement, I believe. Any failure (or combination of f
46 Smcmac32msn: You don't think this aircraft was carrying any "forward" (horizontal) momentum (assuming an inflight breakup)??? More than likely this a/c was still
47 Tietkej: Sounds creepy, yes, but the article says this: She added: 'I keep leaving messages for him, if his mobile was under the water it wouldn't keep taking
48 OA412: Actually there was the CI 742 in 2002 that experienced a structural failure while flying over the Taiwan Straits.
49 NZ107: And the chances of the crash happening being within reach of a cellphone tower? It seems rather unlikely for this story to be true (as in the phone i
50 Caliatenza: the part about the messages can be debunked, but the phone keeps ringing...so either the passenger left the phone behind in rio or something else....
51 SPR773: A cell phone rarely works on the high seas unless (its a sat-phone)....perhaps that person's cell phone was stolen in Brazil itself or he had misplac
52 ManuCH: Either the phone is not with the plane, or the phone has a call diversion in place "if not reachable". Many people divert their cell phones to a land
53 Starlionblue: There are procedures in place before declaring a plane missing. And they take time to implement. In fact, they take hours. It was night time which fu
54 BMI727: There actually was/is evidence and eyewitness reports to support that theory. In reality most of it can be explained and the case for the explosion i
55 Airvan00: Just because you hear a "ring tone" it doesn’t mean the phone at the other end is ringing, especially when you are talking about international call
56 JetA380: [quote=Tietkej,reply=47]She added: 'I keep leaving messages for him, if his mobile was under the water it wouldn't keep taking the messages.' This rea
57 Caliatenza: true...but i think they should still locate the phone in any case.
58 Vikkyvik: Firstly, at the speeds we're talking about, water can be quite solid, especially if a large surface area hits it (i.e. if the airplane didn't hit nos
59 SstSomeday: Two Points: 1) We seem to have the technology to know the whereabouts and condition of an A/C no matter how remote it's position, yet technology has n
60 Vfw614: How could that be possible in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, underwater or not? Highly unlikely. Ringing means the cell phone is picking up a sign
61 Ikramerica: Yes, I dislocated my shoulder on impact when my tube flipped a few years back. And that was only at about 30 mph. One would hope the people in the pl
62 BMI727: It is in the works. We have the technology, but these things take time. GPS is considered state of the art, but it originated in the 80s. http://en.w
63 PanHAM: we live in a world where communication is possible from every remote place on earth. An AF 330 landing on an airstrip on a remote island would be mad
64 Bramble: The flight missed its position check,this is quite routine. It takes time to establish whether there are communication problems or something more sin
65 Vfw614: Any idea why the arrival of flight AF459 from Sao Paulo was transferred to terminal 2C at CDG? It is scheduled to arrive shortly after AF447 and was t
66 Smcmac32msn: As also noted, the phone maybe ringing in said passengers office. Certain cell carriers allow you to forward calls to a land-line. During a LONG flig
67 Springbok747: No way a standard cellphone can pick up a signal in the middle of the Atlantic (if its there). More likely it has been left somewhere on land. More m
68 Bushman: As far as I know, A330 has Fly-by-wire control system. In case ALL electric power is lost the plane becomes uncontrollable as there is no direct cable
69 Smcmac32msn: " target=_blank>http://www.vz.ru/society/2009/6/2/29....html Here is Bushman's link in English: http://translate.google.com/translat...9.html&sl=ru&t
70 Pinhammond: There are many aspects of this event that puzzle me. First, according to AFs Chief Executive the aircraft did transmit a message. I am puzzled that th
71 AAden: I'm not a pilot so forgive me If these are nieve questions Do any pilots out there have any senerio why a passenger jet could fly through a super cell
72 Comeandgo: We're currently experiencing a new period of solar storms which results in all kinds of bizarre electronic malfunction mostly on satellites but also
73 NZ107: It would still have to be fairly close as well. Those towers probably have a maximum range of around 100km. Also the chances of the phone being turne
74 SASD209: That's not really fair, is it? Could be that the fires are well out and the debris has been moved by the winds and ocean currents.... [Edited 2009-06
75 PanHAM: we talk about seven hours, not three hours. That is my point, I mentioned "controlled airspace" and I would not have asked the question if we had tal
76 Bramble: Doesn't seem to be any decomp message. From BBC World News Webpage at 0715Z: AF now say that "A succession of a dozen technical messages" showed that
77 Rampart: "The Convergence", or ITCZ, is a daily and fairly continuous situation. The ITCZ drifts north or south depending on the season. While occasionally cl
78 BMI727: This was one of my first thoughts as well when my dad mentioned the missing plane to me while I was still half asleep. Of course, we have no evidence
79 Stil: Exactly my thoughts about 500 posts away. Maintenance messages don't say "there's an electrical problem", but tells what is the specific system broke
80 Spkyflyer: Would the authorities have truly ruled out terrorism at this point? Am not saying it was terrorism, am just asking whether the investigators will be c
81 Ikramerica: That is not entirely true. It depends on how deep the debris was pushed under the water and what it was made of. Buoyancy of objects containing air c
82 Airvan00: ATC radars have a range of about 250Km. Cell phone towers have a range of 35Km (GSM) (there are some exceptions, but beyond the detail need here). Th
83 Don81603: I'll admit, I haven't gone through all the 900+ posts, but I do recall the USN once had a base on Ascension Island, and if memory serves it's not too
84 Ukkiwibird: I have just read online the paper where the lady makes reference to her husbands ringing phone. As i think we all agree that the phone isn't actually
85 Caliatenza: this is a truly tragic incident, and a very sad day for the aviation community at large. Seriously we are all at god's mercy every time we step on an
86 FlyinTLow: Why is everyone now saying it feel "straight" out of the sky? AF received an automated message from the AC (which no pilot has any kind of influence o
87 Hardiwv: Confirmed list of nationalities onboard AF team and pax, as released by AF and checked by Brazilian Federal Police: 1 Pilot: French, 58 Joined AF in 1
88 Madameconcorde: If a TAM crew happened to have seen debris (?) parts of the wreckage (?) on fire on the ocean surface which they thought came from the AF 332 they mu
89 BMI727: I think it was/is an RAF base. I know that they flew Vulcans from there during the Falklands War and it was a stop for their VC-10 and L-1011 flights
90 A480: I don't know about lightning and severe turbulence... Doesn't seem likely to cause a crash. But what do I know? I guess if the plane went through a sp
91 BMI727: We certainly cannot rule anything out at this point, but I would think that a fire is a rather slow disaster. Even over the middle of an ocean I shou
92 Bramble: It is still manned (not sur who by though) but it is further south and on the eastern side of the ocean. The debris, while visible may have drifted a
93 LVZXV: Just out of curiosity, what are the normal vertical g limits that an A330 can withstand prior to structural overstressing? I've always wondered these
94 Sunstar: Is it possible that durring the turbulance that the door to the avionics compartment opened and many of the computer hardware may have been damaged or
95 MadameConcorde: I would be surprised that those in charge of looking for the wreckage don't send any reconnaissance aircrafts to check on these fires even during nig
96 FlyinTLow: This door, like actually all doors and windows (at least cockpit windows) of a pressurized cabin, open inwards. When the cabin is pressurized, they a
97 ADent: Yes. Yes. Yes - generally. Apparently some messages at some airlines generate alerts. There was talk about AF getting reports of turbulence - if so s
98 Sovietjet: I doubt any fires would be still burning after the immediate time of the incident. If it was stormy, the waves would have put these fires out long ago
99 Hardiwv: TAM pilot said he saw "orange" points in the ocean and this is currently under investigation by the Brazilian Air Force. The statement of the TAM pil
100 ZK-NBT: Very sad. I pray for the families and freinds of the 228 Souls.
101 Babybus: When a pilot passes through turbulence doesn't he comment on this to ATC? Maybe this is a failing in procedures. Also why would a passenger jet aim th
102 L410Turbolet: Is it 3 Slovaks or 3 Slovenians? There IS a slight difference... (as there is between Austrian and Australian) Air France's press release # 5 issued
103 NZ107: I've had personal experience of 80km with a GSM cellphone. But yeah no ATC coverage = no cellphone coverage. There isn't much choice if you're confro
104 Ogre727: wow... terrible news... I can't get over the shock... how can a plane fall from the sky and not be found for this long (over a day). Please don't flam
105 NorthstarBoy: Pardon me for not reading all 900 plus posts, a couple of thoughts: First, If AF dispatch knew there were thunderstorms along the route of flight, why
106 Hardiwv: " target=_blank>http://alphasite.airfrance.com/fligh...e2531 3 Slovaks and not 3 Slovenians as reported above. Rgs,
107 Airbuseric: I really think AF dispatch/operations control is watching ALL their flights 24/7. So if this flight was 'lost' contact, bells start ringing immediate
108 Oly720man: It's a very big ocean and the area being searched could well be the size of France or Germany. If the plane did break up and go on fire as reports ma
109 Tangowhisky: I am not a pilot so perhaps some pilots may better explain about such storms and the likely altitude of the aircraft 3 hours and 30 minutes into a lo
110 Airbuseric: Indeed, dispatch AF is open also 24/7, it must be, since AF have worldwide operations and departures all day long. There is official protocol in avia
111 LH526: Around that area heavy ITCZ occur and I myself often experienced HEAVY turbulences around a 1 hour radius around Refice ... heavy enough to open bins
112 NZ107: You'd be surprised at how tall these things can get. Some great examples in pics in the A.Net database with clouds climbing higher than the plane's c
113 Airbuseric: There was actually a forecast for CB's and significant weather arbound 35° and 20° West, reaching up to FL420 (42,000ft). Also one off the coast of
114 Severnaya: After all they are persons, with loved ones around them, so does nationality really matter?
115 DRAIGONAIR: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...y/0,21985,25576862-5005961,00.html "DEBRIS floating on the Atlantic Ocean in the area where a missing Air Franc
116 Bralo20: Belgian mediasources are reporting that wreckage have been found by a French cargoship near the location where TAM pilots have seen flames on the surf
117 Hardiwv: It is already reported in Brazilian media that nothing has been found in the area. Rgs,
118 NNomad: I think its time for some concentrated information to put us all on track and maybe a few details not stated here so far, so there goes what we do kno
119 MadameConcorde: PPRuNe post: Globo reported on a SPECULATIVE & UNTRUE story in Jornal de Noticias, which was of course twisted & propagated by other news agencies ar
120 FlyABR: all of this talk about lightning and current metal airliners does make me wonder how the 787 will negate the affects of a direct lightning hit...
121 Hardiwv: It is also very clear that the area where the plane disappeared is delimited by the Brazilian Air Force where rescue operations are currently being un
122 MadameConcorde: PPRune Post: DEBRIS floating on the Atlantic Ocean in the area where a missing Air France passenger jet is suspected of crashing has been sighted by c
123 Airbuseric: But the plane was said to be lost about 4.30 hours prior to landing at CDG? That would mean that it can't be around Fernando de Noronha..., and they
124 LHRjc: Not currently, the only breaking news is talking about one of the passengers who went to school here.
125 LH526: Well, we all talk about lightning strikes on the fuselage, etc ... but what if in a percentage spli posibility lightning did not hit the fuselage itse
126 Hardiwv: This is not correct. According to official information the AF flight did not make the contact before entering TASIL (23h20 BSB time). The plane was m
127 MadameConcorde: I edited my post. Apparently there is a French freighter ship in the area where the TAM aircraft saw what they thought were parts of the AF332. I kne
128 NZ107: Can large amounts of lightning/static within the CBs create some sort of interference to prevent radio signals from being transmitted/received to/from
129 Hardiwv: This is the official chronology as official information provided by Brazilian Air Force (all BSB time): - AF477 Departed GIG at 19h30 - 22h33 last co
130 Bralo20: Details from the ship: "MARFRET DOUCE FRANCE" details LAST SEEN (UTC) 06-May 19:17 DESTINATION PHILIPSBURG ETA 14-05 10:00 FLAG KERGUELEN ISLANDS IMO
131 Comeandgo: could be, yes, could also be that the fire went out and the pieces sank to bottom of the ocean. Anyway, I just saw the same report on MSNBC (a televi
132 UALWN: As I mentioned yesterday, a bunch of us at my university returned from Rio to Barcelona on that night. Two flew on AF443 which left GIG for CDG three
133 SEPilot: Why? The main advantage of the SR-71 over any other platform was its ability to outrun missiles. Do you expect anybody to try and shoot down the sear
134 BN727flyr: Here's my 2 cents. Flame away when I'm finished. First, my condolences to all who have been affected by this event. I've read the complete thread (thr
135 Max777geek: What do you base your assumption that "NTSB believes" ? I think that indeed it might have been say that a bomb may be the cause, which is far differe
136 Max550: I just have a quick question that I hope hasn't been mentioned yet. What other incidents are at all similar to this? The only other one I can think of
137 Cws818: With the disclaimer that I have no special training in aeronautic operations, would the following scenario be plausible?: - Is there any information
138 MadameConcorde: This is a message from my ship tracker http://www.vesseltracker.com/en/Ship.../Marfret-Douce-France-9292448.html delayed position of the Marfret Douc
139 AAden: Thankfully you and your friends had a safe flight. I would assume that severe turbluence is not at all likely to be the cause of the accident. Can an
140 Jetfuel: There are fail safe sytems to alert crews to thios sceanrio. Additionally oxygen masks will drop automatically before the point of it being critical.
141 Tom355uk: I think if these alleged 'oscillations' were severe enough that the A330's autopilot could not cope with them, i think it is extremely unlikely that
142 JetA380: Swiss Air 111 caught fire above the cockpit due the internal entertainment system wiring arcing out. This issue was dealt with over a five year perio
143 Md80forum: I immediately thought of the Pulkovo 612 incident in 2006: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20060822-0 A Pulkovo Tupolev-154 over Uk
144 LMML 14/32: This must be one of the most perplexing air accidents ever. I do have one quetion though. What is this automated message sent by the aircraft?
145 Comeandgo: Apparently if there's an electrical failure on an A330 the pressurization system goes from automatic to manual (see previous threads for details.) Th
146 EDICHC: English or British? Not Scots Welsh or Irish? Reason I ask is many Scots would transfer through CDG rather than LHR/LGW.
147 Jetfuel: I am aware that some do not wish to associate past events but I am not ruling out issues with the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit yet either. Not as
148 FlyinTLow: Definition of Turbulence: LIGHT conditions less than moderate, changes in accelerometer less than 0.5 g (at the ACs center of gravity) MODERATE Change
149 Jetfuel: but auto deployment of masks still functions
150 F9Animal: I would assume they had hopes that the aircraft would show up, or diverted somewhere. Millions of possibilities. If they had done so one hour after s
151 SEPilot: I am quite sure that there is more than one system that would alert the crew of loss of cabin pressure long before it became critical. In the Helios
152 Max550: Sorry, I should have been more clear. I wasn't suggesting the AF incident is like the SR one, just that it was a plane falling from cruise for none o
153 Wolbo: Bit confused by the location where they apparently found wreckage. It mentions 'of the Senegalese coast' but on a Belgian news site the location is de
154 Aerdingus: Very much so, thanks for doing that.
155 PanHAM: I did not say 1 hour, but after three hours, which would have been in the morning hours between 7 and8 in Europe, would have been acceptable. There i
156 MillwallSean: There is a ready system for this. Its been around for the last 15 years. Invented by the same bloke that invented the graphic processor for colour co
157 AFGMEL: As I understand it, a Tu134 has a T-tail, so a deep stall is a huge problem. An A330 (or any other non T-Tail aircraft) can recover much more easily
158 Comeandgo: The flight was flying in an area where there's no voice communication but only data communication with ATC. See above, no voice only data at this poi
159 SEPilot: SR 111 didn't fall out of cruise; the crew were in the process of an emergency descent (but they were too "by the book" about it; if they had put the
160 Pilotaydin: Ok, i think it's time to bring some cattle into the herd... some of you are really really stretching some things here and clearly you need a better po
161 AustrianZRH: IIRC, there is information around that even on the most direct way to YHZ, SR 111 would have crashed a couple of minutes before landing.
162 Pilotaydin: Actually, no such thing.... Some stalls are not recoverable, it all depends on how much altitude they have left, the CG position and most importantly
163 Md80forum: I am not so sure professionals would describe it as "easy" to recover any plane from a severe attitude upset if systems/structures/powerplants are al
164 Bralo20: I think they mean that the wreckage is found in Sengalese controlled airspace which is wrongly translated as "of the Sengalese coast"
165 CityhopperNL: Could the crossing of TASIL have gone unnoticed? Is there any radar over there, that the Senegalese use to watch their airspace? To be honest, I thin
166 Zeke: Not likely, the aircraft can fly on its batteries alone, or on the emergency generator, APU, engines etc. Highly unlikely, the timing of events pusts
167 Comeandgo: The Payne Steward LearJet was flying at a higher altitude than the A330 in this case. The depressurization on the Payne Steward aircraft was instant.
168 FlyingBird: " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A5..._Lans You have an example of how ADS-B works LIVE on http://www.flygradar.nu/flygradar.php[Edit
169 Tom355uk: As long as the A330 is in normal law, abnormal flight attitudes (excessive bank angle, excessive pitch angles) cannot be obtained unless the sidestic
170 MadameConcorde: From PPRuNe: Possible debris spotted by Brazilian Air Force. Brazilian tv reporting that R99 (Remote sensing) aircraft have detected debris around 100
171 RobK: No, actually it hasn't and you are completely wrong with your first comment as well. There is voice comms ability everywhere - if you're out of VHF r
172 Jano: Do we know the TAM flight number that reported sighting the orange spots?
173 Hardiwv: The RR99 is the EMB145 converted for military purposes and operates in the Brazilian Air Force with potent radar and infrared equipment. It is also u
174 B707forever: This is the post I've been waiting for. I tracked IB6024 and noticed it was just behind AF447. Thanks for the post. I'm not exactly sure what it tell
175 Hardiwv: I will repeat my post above: - AF477 Departed GIG at 19h30 - 22h33 last contact via radio with Brazil's CINDACTA III in position INTOL (565km off the
176 Hardiwv: Breaking news: Brazilian Air Force spots oil leak and debris 720km off Fernando de Noronha. It is now confirmed by Brazilian media and headlines in Br
177 BlueElephant: To answer your question briefly, most airplanes have a system called ACARS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Communication_Addressing_and_Report
178 Phen: Its extremely unlikely but here's hoping some of those on board have survived.[Edited 2009-06-02 05:12:47]
179 CityhopperNL: This is much better indeed; I hope this is what we are all hoping for
180 PHBUF: little hasty in dismissing the pilot's observations?
181 Hardiwv: Reported again by several Brazilian media agencies: Brazilian Air Force detects floating objects and oil leakage about 770km and 870km off Fernando de
182 NoWorries: The "positive lightning" angle is interesting. There's a fair amount of info about it to google -- like so much on the Internet it's difficult to know
183 CityhopperNL: It has been confirmed by the Brazilian Air Force: "FAB encontra restos que podem ser do Airbus JB Online RIO - Oficiais da Força Aérea Brasileira av
184 KingFriday013: I just woke up and I'm devastated that there's nothing new update-wise. I can't totally catch up on the threads, so I'm not sure if this was establish
185 MadameConcorde: What is your source, please? can you give us a link even in Portuguese?
186 Hardiwv: Further news report as developed on the Brazilian news saying that Brazilian Air Force detected a floating object which apparently is an airplane seat
187 Avek00: The less AF says about the crash beyond finding the aircraft and expressing sympathy for the victims, the better off it is from a legal perspective.
189 MadameConcorde: An oecumenic religious service will be held at Notre Dame Cathedral this afternoon at 4.00 PM local time in memory of the victims. This is an announce
190 Hardiwv: See above, many media sources now state that Brazilian Air Force detected floating objects and oil leakage and among the floating objects apparently
191 EMA747: If they have found the wreckage and can get the CVR and FDRs how much pressure and submersion in very deep water can they stand? If they are in 3-4km
192 Borism: Why then have they said yesterday that all are probably dead even before any wreckage was located?
193 Hardiwv: Brazilian Air Force has not confirmed the floating objects inlcuding the airplane seat belong to AF flight. Brazilian Air Force, however, has confirme
194 Jetfuel: BBC VIDEO A day after an Air France plane was lost over the Atlantic with 228 people on board, pictures showing the search operation have been broadca
195 Brendan03: Found this, Was advised to put it on here... http://www.vosizneias.com/32649/2009...-found-might-be-air-france-flight/ Cheers, Brendan
196 BAW076: BREAKING NEWS ON STV: Wreckage found (Unconfirmed) in the Ocean.....
197 Ogre727: Probably because by the time the said that it was unlikely that the plane had landed elsewhere (fuel would have run out). That, together with the lac
198 Hardiwv: Link with the breaking news captured first by Brazilian news (including TV report) by Brazilian TV Globo: http://g1.globo.com/bomdiabrasil/0,,...ENCO
199 OA260: Yes BBC reports Brazillian Air Force as saying they have found pieces of metal in the Ocean.
200 MadameConcorde: Globo has real time coverage on the Flight 447 disaster (in Portuguese) http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Mundo/0...+COBERTURA+COMPLETA+DO+VOO+AF.html
201 BAW076: Wreckage found 400 miles NE of the Brazillian Coast.
202 Gogojet: from www.avherald.com Hopefully factually correct: "New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that the ACARS messages of system
203 Wexfordflyer: I couldnt fully answer your question. Though the answer is unfortunately no, the aircraft could not be still floating around more than 24 hours later
204 KingFriday013: " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/807...3.stm I know a bit off-topic, but what type of aircraft is that in the video? -J.
205 N: etc How would anyone know if passengers were English. I suspect this is the point EDICHC was alluding to. There is no such thing as an English passpo
206 Hardiwv: " target=_blank>http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Mundo/0....html Full report of the new development available on TV Globo: http://g1.globo.com/bomdiabras
207 Hardiwv: R99 which is a converted EMB145 used for military surveillance purpose. In the Brazilian Air Force they have powerful radar system and infra-red equi
208 Famfflores: It´s now confirmed by Brazilian Air Force (live in television a official from the Brazilian Airforce). First was a R99 that during night received thr
209 ManuCH: I hope we're not starting an "England is not a country" war in this thread... Anyway, I suppose that's merely a translation error. In non-English lan
210 RFields5421: The ocean is close to 12,000 feet deep at that point. The signals from the black boxes are severely degraded by water if they sink that deep. Much of
211 Borism: In many countries United Kingdom is ofter referred to simply as England, thus the confusion
212 NAV20: Thanks, Hardiwv - a bit of 'hardiwv news' at last! That seems fairly conclusive - in two senses. First, there's quite a good chance of them finidng t
213 Wexfordflyer: Perhaps they are not giving out as much information as they know, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. We dont know the difficulties of this searc
214 Aero145: Looks like a Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic to me. Still odd, considering the distance to France from the supposed crash site.
215 Kiwiandrew: In fairness I think that it has to be remembered that for a lot of the world English=British=English , I know that is incorrect , but that is just ho
216 Hardiwv: Thanks. Fyi, The Brazilian Air Force is using the following Brazilian aircraft in the rescue mission: - 1 Bandeirante (P-95 7100); - 1 helicopter Bla
217 SkyHigh777: CNN is now reporting this as well: Wreckage has been found in the Atlantic Ocean that could have come from a missing Air France jet that disappeared M
218 LipeGIG: Smart use of resources ! Lets wait for some news from Navy and FAB (Brazilian Air Force)
219 Vasu: Very true By the way, is it pretty much confirmed that the debris is from the A330 now? Finding airline seats surely points that way...?
220 Pilotaydin: Just as i've been suspecting, alternate law = possible to stall the aircraft.... prim 1 and sec faults...well for sec computers to fail, all 3 prim h
221 Hardiwv: Globo TV, Brazil's major TV chanel, reports the floating objects were detected in two location off the Fernando de Noronha coast. They are distant 60k
222 RoyalAirMaroc: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8079122.stm BBC now reporting brazilian airforce has spotted debris.
223 KingFriday013: Here's the full article: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americ...il.france.plane.missing/index.html -J.
224 DiscoverCSG: Wouldn't AF have had the addresses of the passengers because of credit card processing, etc.? What a terrible loss.
225 Breiz: The Breguet operates from Dakar which is a lot closer than France.
226 MadameConcorde: PPRuNe A Brazilian Air Force personnel just came out live on Brazilian television saying that search planes have found wreckage 650Km north-east from
227 AirGabon: There are 2 French Air Force Breguet Atlantic aircraft based in Dakar (DKR), Senegal, part of the permanent French Army contingent in Senegal.
228 Dougbr2006: Not exactly convinsing evidence, if it were a seat then probably a cushion not a seat, airliners seats are not light and would probably sink, white d
229 Widebody: Aircraft don't generally carry an orange life ring or oil drums?
230 MadameConcorde: From Globo A Aeronáutica informou nesta terça-feira (2) que encontrou objetos metálicos e não-metálicos no Oceano Atlântico. Ainda não há conf
231 MCOflyer: Just found this article: Seems to be somewhat accurate. http://news.aol.com/article/air-fran...Fair-france-plane-missing%2F505817 May they all RIP if
233 LipeGIG: AF team has arrived at GIG this morning to help and support families in Rio. Also, the parts found by FAB were located in two points, 60km from each o
234 Hardiwv: Brazilian Air Force states that is "too little" material for an aircraft the size of the A330 pointing that perhaps the floating objects could indeed
235 Aogdesk: CNN reporting possible wreckage sighting...
236 Wexfordflyer: Well I think it is the most convincing so far and not to be sniffed at. given the circumstances finding anything like this would likely point to the
237 Hardiwv: Thats already old now...see below...the news are developing... Rgs,
238 Starlionblue: How about, you know, an oil drum or some other kind of fluid container.
239 MadameConcorde: PPRuNe from The Aviation Herald "New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that the ACARS messages of system failures started to
240 BN727flyr: WIth all due respect, sir, please read the NTSB report on the crash, which states in part that:
241 FlyDeltaJets: Sometimes drums of liquid are carried as freight.
242 Wexfordflyer: Yup, another likely possibility........all only suggestions
243 Dougbr2006: The media are great in these situations. The Brazillian Air Force statement is quote "a seat" the BBC have now made that into seats. This ssems more l
244 NNomad: Fresh news *13:28 02Jun2009 -BRAZIL AIR FORCE SAYS FINDS METAL DEBRIS IN ATLANTIC OCEAN, STILL CONFIRMING IF IT LOST AIR FRANCE JET 13:32 02Jun2009 -D
245 RFields5421: Then way was the story all over the US news networks two hours before the scheduled ETA, and all over the international news networks. The first post
246 Famfflores: The word in portuguese is "tambor". My translation to it is drum, that could mean some sort of oil drum or similar. I don´t think he referred to a mu
247 LipeGIG: Correct. At this stage is difficult to say if they belong to the Airbus or not.
248 Spacecadet: Why do you think it's so unlikely that they have found plane wreckage? There is not just wreckage of various things floating randomly all over the At
249 LipeGIG: Brazilian Air Force says that the closer vessel to the items found is a french merchant vessel No information if it's heading to the area. http://oglo
250 JBirdAV8r: Depending on how they hit the water (and I'm guessing uncontrolled) there won't be much left resembling an aircraft.
251 RFields5421: There were 10 computer to computer messages over a four minute period. No human sees them when the come in. I would assume that certain messages such
252 Dougbr2006: From official report: Segundo o coronel, foram avistados por volta das 5h25m uma poltrona de avião, pequenos pedaços de materiais brancos, um tambo
253 NAV20: Tend to feel the same way, RFields. As far as the 'wreckage' is concerned, it'll probably be 24 hours before we know for certain whether it came from
254 Gulfstream650: Why don't airliners have GPS trackers?
255 JakeOrion: On that, I wonder after this incident authorities will begin flying aircraft in "visual range pairs" in these isolated areas of the world. Might be a
256 Osiris30: It's likely seat cushions which are flotation devices. Most flotation devices I know aren't prone to sinking If verified, that's rather alarming. Som
257 RFields5421: Out in the mid-ocean - aircraft can only use VHF to contact other aircraft nearby. They are supposed to monitor the emergency frequency - but all ATC
258 Manfredj: Yes, I feel your frustration. So many theories, so little evidence if any at all. As a matter of fact, in the age of computers, we have lost some of
259 LipeGIG: The messages for sure put a big quotation mark about what happen. In South Atlantic there's rush hours during late night when planes to Europe meet t
260 RFields5421: The 'fires' were not reported to the authorities until well after daylight in the area. Remember the TAM pilot never said they saw flames. They saw v
261 Pilotaydin: If there was an ADIRU fault....this makes things very very difficult...and depending on how many went off line...damn...maybe they did have something
262 RFields5421: The plane was cruising at 35,000 ft That should be above most of the weather, but not all if it is extremely severe. We see storms topping 55,000 ft
263 EDDB: If true (and this seems far too specific to be made up) this puts a whole new perspective on the possible causes of this terrible desaster! AP diseng
264 TheCommodore: Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 242): "New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that the ACARS messages of system failures starte
266 RFields5421: Yes - that area is in Mid-Ocean - but it is in the Dakar ATC zone, why the news media would get confused since Senegal would be the agency responsibl
267 Moderators: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4431652/ Part 6
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