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AF A332 Missing (F-GZCP) - Part 6  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 513 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 71444 times:
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Continuing the discussion from part 5 here:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4431071/


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273 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGulfstream650 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 71331 times:

Why don't airliners have GPS tracking systems so they can always be located by their airlines whilst in flight and also when in times like this, things go wrong?!

[Edited 2009-06-02 06:50:03]


I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
User currently offlineLHRjc From Netherlands, joined Apr 2006, 1964 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 71335 times:

In reference to the last post on Part 5...

ADIRU - Air Data and Inertial Reference Unit
ISIS - Integrated Standby Instruments System



"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 71119 times:



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 260):
I'm thinking the flight may have broken up mid-flight. I would think a bomb, but a bomb doesn't take 4 minutes to bring an airliner into a dive.

Depends upon the size and placement of the bomb.

Remember the UAL B747 which lost a cargo door out of Hawaii? They were very lucky the aircraft did not breakup in the flight back to Honolulu.

A smallish explosing which might have damaged the aircraft skin could easily lead to an inflight breakup taking several minutes.


User currently offlineEMA747 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 1171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70927 times:

Posted in thread 5 just before 6 was open:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 260):
I would think a bomb, but a bomb doesn't take 4 minutes to bring an airliner into a dive.

What about a smaller explosion that didn't rip the plane apart at first but took out some systems etc and maybe made a hole in the skin and made it depressurize? With a depressurized cabin and systems failing things would go real bad really quick right?



Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70960 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 3):

Remember the UAL B747 which lost a cargo door out of Hawaii? They were very lucky the aircraft did not breakup in the flight back to Honolulu.

A smallish explosing which might have damaged the aircraft skin could easily lead to an inflight breakup taking several minutes.

Yes, but not without radio contact (the ACARS was still running via radio). That's the part I'm struggling with.

Does anyone know the physical location of the PRIM systems on the 330?



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70967 times:



Quote:
Quoting Aero145 (Reply 217):
Looks like a Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic to me. Still odd, considering the distance to France from the supposed crash site.


Could be Senegal based?

The French military launched some planes from "locations in western Africa" early Monday morning, and they were sending an Atlantic from France also.

Quote:
Quoting Wolbo (Reply 154):
Bit confused by the location where they apparently found wreckage. It mentions 'of the Senegalese coast' but on a Belgian news site the location is described as 1300km from Fernando de Noronha. That would put it around midway between Brazil and Senegal and a lot further along the route than they were originally looking for but not as far as 'of the Senegalese coast'.

Yes - that area is in Mid-Ocean - but it is in the Dakar ATC zone, why the news media would get confused since Senegal would be the agency responsible for that area.


User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 420 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70704 times:
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Re-posted late post from part 5:

This crash and disappearance makes a point.
Nine out of ten passengers flying trans-oceanic flights have no idea their plane is out of contact. No radar coverage more than 100 nautical miles from the coast, and no VHF radio. They have HF radio to communicate with Oceanic ATC, but this is very hard to listen to, because of the noise and static. Only monitored by ATC, not by other aircraft.
Two planes from the same airline could communicate on their company VHF channel, if they were nearby. The extreme case is flights between Auckland and Buenos Aires, when there is no contact for hours.

BA84


User currently offlineAi2316 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70405 times:

What i don't get is that the TAM pilot didn't report what he saw until the next day which on it's own is understandable, however when ATC lost contact with the AF A332 they would have done all possible to make contact with them including contacting other aircraft in vicinity and asking them to try to contact using VHF. Well wouldn't the TAM flight have been contacted seeing that they passed over the area not long after the loss of contact?

User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1389 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70397 times:



Quoting EMA747 (Reply 4):
What about a smaller explosion that didn't rip the plane apart at first but took out some systems etc and maybe made a hole in the skin and made it depressurize? With a depressurized cabin and systems failing things would go real bad really quick right?

However, some terrorist would have taken responsibility by now if it had been a bomb. Makes no sense to blow up a plane and tell nobody you have done it... Maybe some unmarked HAZMAT freight which blew up midflight, smiliar to the SAA flight over the Indian Ocean?

Also, could someone with more knowledge maybe enlighten me what ADIRU, ISIS, PRIM and SEC actually "do" on the plane?



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineAkhristov From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70412 times:



Quoting LHRjc (Reply 2):
In reference to the last post on Part 5...

ADIRU - Air Data and Inertial Reference Unit
ISIS - Integrated Standby Instruments System

Sounds like something went terribly, terribly wrong...


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70165 times:



Quoting Ai2316 (Reply 8):
Well wouldn't the TAM flight have been contacted seeing that they passed over the area not long after the loss of contact?

No. Over the ocean it's not uncommon to lose an aircraft for an hour or two. The TAM was likely past that point when it was suspected the AC was down. If they hadn't yet landed, why bother the pilots of the TAM flight with that information if they are then past that point.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineCosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70156 times:



Quoting BA84 (Reply 7):
Nine out of ten passengers flying trans-oceanic flights have no idea their plane is out of contact. No radar coverage more than 100 nautical miles from the coast, and no VHF radio. They have HF radio to communicate with Oceanic ATC, but this is very hard to listen to, because of the noise and static. Only monitored by ATC, not by other aircraft.
Two planes from the same airline could communicate on their company VHF channel, if they were nearby. The extreme case is flights between Auckland and Buenos Aires, when there is no contact for hours.

Why can't they use Satcom?


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 70170 times:



Quoting Gulfstream650 (Reply 1):
Why don't airliners have GPS tracking systems so they can always be located by their airlines whilst in flight and also when in times like this, things go wrong?!

GPS is one way from the satellites to the GPS device. Nothing goes from the device back to the GPS satellite.

What we see on TV as GPS tracking is from the device to the cell phone network. It is the cell phone network tracking the device, but using the GPS determined position of the device for accuracy.

This aicraft was far out of cellphone range.

Yes, there is uplink radio capability. It is expensive and the only reason it is not used today is cost and the time it takes to test, verify and certify systems for aircraft usage. Renting satellite time will be expensive, but it's only money.

I would be surprised if some of the ACARS messages received from the aircraft did not have a pretty precise location.

HOWEVER, it was at least six to seven hours before search aircraft could have been on scene. If the weather was clear enough to see the surface of the ocean - doubtful yesterday - the wreckage could have moved 30-40 miles with normal surface currents.

That's not counting that after falling from 35,000 ft - the wreckage impact with the ocean could be 10 or more miles from the last reported position.

So you are looking at a circle at least 50 miles in diameter if you have a perfect position report.


User currently offlineTom355uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69971 times:

Ok...

from the last thread ACARS messages....

0210 - A/P disengage

followed shortly by ALTN LAW...

Like i stated previously, The A330 will revert to ALTN LAW if the aircraft enters an unusual flight attitude.

The main question here is:

"What caused the A/P Disengage??"

That will yield some major answers I feel.



on Twitter @tombeckett2285
User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69951 times:

Couldn't see if it was mentioned before - but wreckage from the plane has been found:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/02/2587591.htm

Brazilian Air Force has found the debris, about 650km from NOR. That's it.  Sad

Quoting Tom355uk (Reply 14):
from the last thread ACARS messages....

Those sound suspiciously similar to the Qantas A333 ADIRU issues.

[Edited 2009-06-02 07:03:57]

User currently offlineEMA747 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 1171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69654 times:



Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 9):
However, some terrorist would have taken responsibility by now if it had been a bomb. Makes no sense to blow up a plane and tell nobody you have done it... Maybe some unmarked HAZMAT freight which blew up midflight, smiliar to the SAA flight over the Indian Ocean?

I didn't really mean a bomb. More some explosion caused in another way however that might be. Maybe to do with a spark and/or lightning strike?



Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
User currently offlineCosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69657 times:



Quoting Tom355uk (Reply 14):
"What caused the A/P Disengage??"

The APU could have been ripped off and was gone.


User currently offlineFlyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 591 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69426 times:

Ok, I am only on speculation with limited info as most:

I bet: forget lightning. My bet is on a severe damage caused by the storm. It was reported in German news that the whether wasn't extreme severe, and still typical, but the height of clouds and stormy condition was up to 16 km high, rather unusual high. So my this minutes theory is on a structural damage (maybe only a rather 'light one') like s crack in the wing which over the next 3-4 minutes caused the plane to finally break apart. This referring to the recorded auto messages. My 'only' open is that it wonders me why in this 3-4 minutes, no regular mayday message was sent. or did the crew didn't notice that it could have been a crack (an unthinkable?).

Anyhow, I am just among the guessers as well.

regards

Flyglobal


User currently offlineThrottleHold From South Africa, joined Jul 2006, 659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69156 times:



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 5):
Yes, but not without radio contact (the ACARS was still running via radio). That's the part I'm struggling with.

Too much is being read into the lack of radio contact. Voice comms would have been through HF, ACARS will have been communicating via SATCOM.
In a dynamic emergency situation, the proirity is to fly the aircraft and manage the problems. As the old saying goes....aviate, navigate, communicate. Getting a MAYDAY broadcast on HF is a not as reliable as on VHF. It may even require 2, 3 or 4 attempts to get the message passed due to atmospheric conditions, frequency congestion or poor reception.

What really intrigues me is failure messages of the ISIS. To lose the ADIRU's and the standby systems is very unusual.

I'm an A330 pilot and I can't think of a scenario yet that would cause this.


User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69170 times:

As little as we know, there are two things that seem to be clear:

- The aircraft was at altitude

- There was no distress call from the crew

From there the theory would indicate either:

- Catastrophic failure - no time for the crew to send a message

or

- Complete loss of communication - there might have been time to send a message but not the means to do it (no radios or crew incapacitated)

From there we can speculate on the causes, but there is very little data to go on:

- electrical failure - was this a cause or a consequence?
- decompression - again: cause or consequence?

Regarding the timing, was the message sent by the systems before or after the last communication with the crew (which supposedly got cut off)? I get the idea that the second case is correct, but honestly I haven't had enough time to read all posts. If anybody can clarify that point it would be great.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineTom355uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69149 times:



Quoting Cosmofly (Reply 17):
The APU could have been ripped off and was gone

I beg your pardon?? What does the APU have to do with anything???

I think you may be getting confused. The Auxillary Power Unit would have absolutely no bearing on the Auto Pilot (A/P), or AFCS (Auto Flight Control System) being connected, disconnected or operating in any manner or form.



on Twitter @tombeckett2285
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69126 times:



Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 9):
However, some terrorist would have taken responsibility by now if it had been a bomb.

Don't forget pure old fashioned greed and anger as possible motives for a bomb.

The first known bomb explosion bringing down a civilian jet airliner was insurance fraud.

Other aircraft have been brought down by angry business partners/ rivals and spouses.

Doubtful, but possible.


User currently offline777222 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69157 times:

From an article posted on Yahoo: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane

"The locations where the objects were found are towards the right of the point where the last signal of the plane was emitted," Amaral said. "That suggests that it might have tried to make a turn, maybe to return to Fernando de Noronha, but that is just a hypothesis."

This quote is from a Brazilian Air Force spokesperson.

I believe it is standard procedure when an aircraft is out of ATC contact and the pilot needs to deviate from the assigned altitude, they turn ten degrees off track? That may explain the departure from the assigned course. Of course, wind and sea currents will also play a significant role in the location of any debris.



To fly is to live.
User currently offlineGlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 69140 times:



Quoting Tom355uk (Reply 14):
"What caused the A/P Disengage??"

One question could be: "Could that mean it was manually disengaged?"... but I would guess that wouldn't be transmitted via ACARS, or would it?

GlobeEx



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
25 Gulfstream650 : Assuming this is the plane, I have to congratulate the Brazilian Air Force for doing such a superb job at locating the plane. They didn't waste a min
26 Klemmi85 : The A/P has nothing to do with the APU, two totally different things.
27 Pilotaydin : This is not correct at all, ALTN law is a degraded flight mode, it happens when certain systems are lost or degraded, trying to pitch the a/c or gett
28 Post contains links Airbuske : Plane searchers spot ocean debris http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8079122.stm
29 ThrottleHold : No, it will revert to Abnormal Law.
30 Lowrider : Not entirely true. If you have HF, CPDLC, SATCOM, or SAT phone coverage, then you are not out of contact. Thanks to SELCAL, continuous watch on HF is
31 YWG747 : Sounds like they may have found debris from this plane. I just read on CNN they found seats and such. My condolences to all those effected by this tra
32 GlobeEx : That's right! It might in fact take a couple of minutes to gain contact. Well, loosing one won't be a problem since you will still have the data of t
33 Burkhard : Don't beat me for this pure speculation, please. The A332 tail has a lot of composites, more than any other flying long range airliner. Does this impo
34 Cosmofly : The APU will be gone if the tail cone breaks off. What if the vertical and horizontal stabilizers are gone too? Can it explain why pilots did not sen
35 Post contains links BOACVC10 : What, if at all true, is the meaning of the this paragraph ? "... 10 automated distress messages" Ref: Brazilian Air Force Searching for Missing Plane
36 Akhristov : What does the APU have to do with the autopilot disengaging?
37 LipeGIG : TAM pilot was flying CDG-GIG the same day of the AF missing plane, he arived later in São Paulo and tell about what he saw, but be in mind, he talk
38 JBirdAV8r : I don't fly an Airbus but I thought Abnormal Law was synonymous with Alternate Law.
39 Akhristov : It's been mentioned before, they were the ACARS messages. Autopilot disengaging, ISUS and ADIRU failing...
40 Klemmi85 : again: A/P is NOT the APU, it's the autopilot!
41 OffshoreAir : I'm sorry, quick deviation, what does LAW stand for in this situation?
42 Cosmofly : My bad, I was too imprinted with APU.
43 Tom355uk : My understanding was that the aircraft will revert to ABNORMAL ALTN LAW if the aircraft enters an unusual attitude, allowing for recovery. The flight
44 Post contains links Raffik : According to BBC News, a lifejacket has been spotted amongst the debris and large patches of oil http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8079122.stm
45 GlobeEx : Well most of the A330 still consist of AlLi but indeed the stabilizers are mainly composite (CFK & GFK)... no AFK or do I mix something up here? Howe
46 Post contains links Meta : I thought it was very interesting on the yahoo article that they mentioned there were two spots of debris found and they were 35 miles apart from each
47 Famfflores : Please correct me if I´m wrong: Tam crew spotted orange points that could be fire points 1,300 km away from Fernando de Noronha. Brazilian Airforce f
48 BMIFlyer : Hi guys, I've not commented on this topic just yet, I preferred to just sit and read the threads and see what goes on. My oh my, there's alot of specu
49 NNomad : Almost impossible in fact.. both pilot and copilot ADIRU's down is something i never heard of... that pretty much states the probabilies of losing th
50 JakeOrion : Possible collision with another aircraft?
51 ThrottleHold : Abnormal Law is a variation of Alternate Law. The following is a direct quote from A330 FCOM 1.27.30: An abnormal attitude law in pitch and roll is p
52 GlobeEx : As I mentioned before. Eventhough the switch to ALTN Law was being sent before the failure of the ADIRU I think it isn't a coincidence that both took
53 JBirdAV8r : LAW actually isn't an acronym in this case. Its meaning is quite literal--a "quick and dirty" explanation is that it's the set of principles that det
54 GlobeEx : ADRIU is the Air Data [and] Inertial Reference Unit. It passes on the data of Speed hights among others to the EFCS. There are three ADRIU on the A33
55 777jaah : And no one ever talked about another missing aircraft?? Way too fishy.......
56 Post contains links JFernandez : I think it actually means "Law". These are the rules that govern various systems in the plane. There's some discussion of what goes into each in an A
57 Lowrider : Doubtful, unless there is another aircraft that was in the same vicinity at the same time and no one noticed it was also missing. 1 mph drift is not
58 AT777 : There isn't another aircraft missing is there? I haven't heard of one.
59 JBirdAV8r : Thanks for that!
60 GlobeEx : Well it happened once on an Alitalia flight that they were left with none ADIRU as far as I know. A flight to London, however they departed with only
61 RobK : Indeed. I think the "the crew made no attempt to MAYDAY their situation" story is rather premature until the tapes have been listened to. Any pilots
62 JakeOrion : True, but I've never heard of half debris here, half over there before. No, just pure speculation. AF447 is the only missing aircraft.
63 EMA747 : Unless it was some kind of drug run plane and nobody will report that. For the record I don't believe this senario though.
64 RFields5421 : Nothing says the pilots did not send out a MayDay on VHF - but there were probably no other aircraft in range. They were far out of range of land bas
65 Box37 : Aerolineas, LAN and Qantas report position on HF about every 45 minutes, plus they are on SELCAL watch. Very lonely in the South Pacific that is why
66 FuturePilot16 : This could be a possibility, wasn't that the case with TWA Flight 800? The aircraft broke into two pieces because of the explosion and debris was sca
67 777jaah : At 35.000 feet?? That's the reason why I think is impossible. Drug planes are basically props (Turbocommanders, Super Kings, Pipers, etc), but once i
68 Hardiwv : Brazilian media report that a Dutch ship will be the first to arrive in the location where the objects were detected. Rgs,
69 BlueFlyer : How often do PRIM and SEC fail too ? I think a lot of things that rarely, if ever, go wrong at the same time, just did. A/P off, Alternate Law on, AD
70 ThrottleHold : In older model A330's there was a mechanical linkage between the rudder pedals and the rudder itself. Newer models replaced this with a totally elect
71 RedFlyer : I don't think I've ever felt such a sickening feeling in the pit of my stomach as I have with this crash. The only other times I've felt this way wer
72 ManuCH : OK, as we're speculating, I'll throw another wild guess in the mix to talk about. What do all these failing things (according to the ACARS messages) h
73 MadameConcorde : Source: AFP (Agence France Presse): 15:30 (Paris time): "French army spokesmen, based at Dakar (Sénégal) and co-ordinating the search for the missin
74 RFields5421 : A breakup in the air is the most likely cause for separate debris fields, but I've seen ship debris in widely separate groups several times in the Pa
75 Babybus : They keep mentioning a possible lightning strike but surely they were flying above the clouds at that point and surely lightning doesn't strike upward
76 Gigneil : That's just not true. The A380's entire rear section has a lot more, and the 777's empennage is also mostly composite. Granted, the actual tailcone o
77 Tom355uk : I take it you've never heard of positive lightning? the source of the term 'bolt from the blue'? it was discussed earlier, in one of the previous thr
78 Hardiwv : News report in Brazil: Dutch merchant ship will be the first to arrive at the location of the floating objects. The Dutch ship is 35km away from the l
79 Ai2316 : They could both be right? and If that is the case, Could it be a sign of explosive decompression? The debris found be the brazilian airforce directly
80 Post contains links BA84 : For the non-pilots (like me): SELCAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELCAL ACARS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS BA84
81 OffshoreAir : Let's say maybe the aircraft broke up inside a thunderhead. It is possible that due to the reported size and intensity of these storms, debris could h
82 Post contains links Hardiwv : http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/voo-af447/2009/06/02/ult7483u66.jhtm Water temperature of 30 degrees, waves of between 1.5 and 2m, wind speed of le
83 RFields5421 : Most lightning is not air to ground but air to air. Yes going up can happen. But most likely the plane was not above the clouds at the time of troubl
84 MadameConcorde : It will take a vessel to arrive on site where the debris are and to report about them to be certain that they are parts coming from A/C AF447. Any ide
85 RFields5421 : Yes someone will have to retrieve and physically examine the debris. There are no helicopters capable of the flgiht out and back, nor water landing c
86 Antonioavelar : The inaccurate information regarding the area where the debris are being reported can give as a clue about how far those can travel due to the ocean s
87 Famfflores : This is what I thought, but this would mean the plane flew a while from first event to crash. I wonder if this is a possible scenario....they´d be m
88 Gigneil : The tops at that time were estimated at 55,000 feet. There was no way they could have gotten all the way over, but very probably it would have been b
89 KL911 : hmmm, isn't that 270km apart? That's a great distance..
90 Post contains links D L X : It certainly can. I mentioned the thought of "positive lightning" in the second thread. Take a look at this, especially the part about "blue jets" ht
91 Post contains links Hardiwv : This is the information related to the archipelago of Sao Paulo e Sao Pedro which is near the position of the floating objects. http://en.wikipedia.or
92 EA772LR : I have knots in my stomach...this is just awful. I hope however they find out about what happened with AF447, the families, friends, and co-workers of
93 Raffik : On the BBC, they had a weather expert who said that storm clouds can be up to 70,000 feet high and aircraft have no option but to fly through, choosin
94 Osiris30 : Agreed. However with 4 mintues you would think there would be some opportunity to at least radio a mayday. We have 4 miuntes of anomolous ACARS messa
95 Hardiwv : I said what Brazil media are reporting, some media vehicles reported 600km other 870km off Fernando de Noronha coast, while it is reported that the o
96 Post contains links Starlionblue : To further explain, ADIRU is a navigational device that "knows" the position of the aircraft. It is part of the inertial navigation system. On some a
97 BMIFlyer : Thanks
98 BA84 : Famfflores, This is not my quote. BA84
99 Radarbeam : I am not sure if this was already brought up but what about Dangerous Goods (DGs)? Every airline ship them, it can be anything from explosives to flam
100 Post contains links Hardiwv : Media reports indicate 2 Dutch merchant vessels and 1 French are close to the location of the objects, 1 Dutch merchant vessel is closer (about 35km
101 EMA747 : If they had already lost a lot of systems they might not have been able to steer around a massive storm cell. If a storm cell is involved at all it co
102 RFields5421 : As pointed out several times on these threads - over HF it can take four to five mintues to establish a connection with ATC sector. They were out of
103 Gigneil : Certainly there was sufficient battery for radios, especially as the ACATS messages went out. NS
104 KL911 : BTW, where is A.net member FLYSSC? Haven't heard him at all on this subject. Hope he wasn't working.....
105 Famfflores : Sorry BA84. I meant Ai2316
106 GlobeEx : Well, If your ADIRU is giving false information switching of the A/P is probably the best thing you can do. Just to elaborate. The ADIRU (which consi
107 Gigneil : ACARS. NS
108 Hardiwv : This is true...lets hope he is providing assistance to AF ground staff in this difficult situation. Rgs,
109 777jaah : I think he showed up in part # 1.
110 BA84 : Roger.
111 EXAAUADL : United DC-4/6 near DEN in 1955 I think and a CO 707 near KCI in 1962
112 Post contains links FCA767 : Small Search on ship tracking...is this the Dutch ship they are talking about? I googled Jo Cedar and it is dutch I think I see it has done course cha
113 Post contains images Hardiwv : Here is a map of the location where objects were found Rgs,
114 Cedars747 : I asked the same ? where are you FLYSSC ? please respond Alex!!!
115 Flyorski : Your worrying me.....
116 UALWN : As I mentioned before, I flew on TP178 GIG-LIS on Sunday, departing GIG about 75 minutes before AF447. The captain told us to expect "light turbulenc
117 GlobeEx : He did his last post yesterday moring, so don't worry!
118 ThrottleHold : From rte.ie/news... Aer Lingus confirms that there were 2 EI staff on board the AF flight.
119 Cedars747 : 10x GlobeEx ! Alex!!!
120 LipeGIG : And lead to something totally unexpected. Hope they can recover as much as they can from the plane to help understand what happen.
121 Hardiwv : I am really sorry. Indeed, 3 Irish are among the oboard pax list. Rgs,
122 Post contains links FCA767 : That Ship I linked to...I can see it's search pattern... Plus Average Miles every 6 hours = 80 miles for days but last night it did 651 miles in 6 hou
123 RFields5421 : If he works for the airline, or any of the companies involved in building or maintaining the aircraft - he is probably under an embargo against any c
124 Hardiwv : " target=_blank>http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shi...=PFDI Thanks for finding and location the Dutch merchant vessel, it must get to the location o
125 MadameConcorde : The French freighter's name is Douce France, a container ship. She is not on any tracker. The crew probably did not report their position. What is th
126 SLCPilot : The have been many, many discussions on the automated messages sent from the plane. While they will be a big help in that they're just about the only
127 Haggis79 : well, I think there's no evidence that points towards this who I believe 651 miles in 6 hours, which means an average speed of over 100 knots, is pret
128 FCA767 : you welcome...I wish they would be in a life raft and see a ship coming...that ship was going mightly fast overnight, back up north...it was going to
129 Hardiwv : Thanks for the important information. Sorry, I could not find the names of the 3 vessels (2 Dutch and 1 French). When the Brazil Air Force contacted
130 Post contains links FCA767 : you're right, i was wandering why the tracker has done this...any explanation? http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shipposition.phtml?call=PFDI
131 DAL763ER : FLYSSC is ok, I think. He posted yesterday in the thread regarding the AF 65 diversion so he should be fine...
132 Hardiwv : Thanks again for the information. Brazil Air Force said the vessels perhaps will not be able to collect the floating objects from the sea (they may n
133 SuseJ772 : I saw someone else ask this earlier (maybe you), and I wondered the same thing. I hope he is alright. Is he a pilot or just an AF employee? One of th
134 Andybancroft : Can we have a quick summary for people who have not been able to read the forums yet today. Thanks Andy
135 SuseJ772 : Especially the "4 minutes thing." Where did that come from?
136 Post contains links Happylandings : http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1&opt=1
137 SuseJ772 : I did not see your post before I made mine. Sorry for the alarm.
138 Richierich : Very true, although the Titanic did not have pingers on its black boxes! It's very crucial for the rescue/recovery teams to get ships into the suspec
139 Post contains images Hardiwv : This is a map released by Brazil Air Force with the exact two locations where the floating objects were found: Media in Brazil report that the floatin
140 SLCPilot : OT!! Maybe this comment should be in the "site related" area, but I always thought that these long running threads should have a "synopsis" feature th
141 VC-10 : That is incorrect there are 2 reconfiguration levels in Atn Law and all are to do with system failures. External influences such as attitude have not
142 SuseJ772 : Gracious. That was very helpful.
143 Post contains links Hardiwv : This is the official press release by Brazil Air Force (FAB): http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?mostra=3095 This is a large scale official m
144 Happylandings : There is an abnormal attitude law, though, that allows for unusual attitude recovery if certain flight envelope boundaries are exceeded - e.g. if pit
145 Flylot : Thats what I'm wondering as well. I realize those messages came in a few seconds/minutes apart but what the chance of some transmission delay?
146 Haggis79 : as to all of my knowledge, FlySSC is an AF flight attendant flying long-haul. However, as mentioned several times, he has been posting since this tra
147 AustrianZRH : Could those error messages be the result of an inflight breakup, or a hull damage in the avionics bay, where some parts were sucked out at different t
148 Gr8Circle : Just a question that occured to me.....the Brazilian Air Force was the first to launch a search for the plane....is there some sort of law or conventi
149 YULWinterSkies : Not necessarily an embargo but it may be hard to say anything on a forum when 12 of your colleagues were on board and presumably won't ever be seen a
150 Haggis79 : they pretty much could be everything and nothing. As it was noted above, we don't even know if the errors reported in those messages were part of the
151 Hardiwv : Breaking news: Brazil media report that more pilots of other commercial aircraft which arrived today in Brazil reported seeing objectes around the sam
152 VC-10 : Thanks, I have a A346 FCOM here. The original poster said Altn Law, not Abnormal Att Law. There are just too many posts to read them all
153 Cedars747 : Must be the case as Pierre is something like Air France ambassador to Airliners.net. Alex!!!
154 MadameConcorde : I believe the QE2 was a lot faster than usual when she served the Royal Navy taking the British troops to the Falklands. I was going to post on this.
155 Rj777 : Apparently, one of the objects spotted was an oil drum. Is it standard to carry oil drums on t/atl flights? Also, kerosine was apparently spotted. Tha
156 Hardiwv : Considering the rescue location is within the area of the Brazilian maritime area I think if any country wants to get involved it needs first to get
157 Tugger : An important thing to remember is that you are dealing with many separate agencies and news organizations from around the world and various time zone
158 Post contains links BA84 : Dutch ship is JO CEDAR. Track: http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shipposition.phtml?call=PFDI BA84
159 Post contains links Jammin : With all the acronyms flying around, I thought I'd share this PDF that I googled for from Air France on abbreviations used on their Airbus aircraft. I
160 Seemyseems : Is this the same ship used in the SR111 incident?
161 Atlwest1 : I just wanted to give my deepest and heart felt sympathies to the families of all the passengers and crew. I wish you peace and comfort.
162 Post contains links Hardiwv : " target=_blank>http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shi...=PFDI This is the Dutch tank vessels (chemicals) which is due to arrive or is at the location
163 TristarSteve : Unlikely All the computors on the aircraft are connected to the centralised warning system. If they have a fault they will send a message. This messa
164 Andybancroft : Please can we have a summery of what is known / happened so far. Andy
165 Post contains links EMA747 : a photo of the ship if anyone is interested http://www.pbase.com/smera/image/83749863
166 RFields5421 : Normally the request for a search goes out to the nation closest to the estimated crash zone. They can be the fastest on the scene, provided they hav
167 BA84 : No. This is a tanker which, by chance, is the closest ship to the sighted debris. Zoom out to see the ship's track before the crash. BA84
168 BlueFlyer : Would the pilots notice ADIRU is malfunctioning and turn off the A/P before ACARS sends off a message to report the malfunction ? The only reliable t
169 Railker : That ship was Queen of the Netherlands
170 Legacytravel : I did have a question. Could the plane have transmitting via ACARS as it was breaking up? This would explain the various messages sent from the plane.
171 MadameConcorde : MARFRET DOUCE FRANCE (callsign FMBI) apparently not reporting their position. Some of them don't report for one reason or the other.
172 USAIRWAYS321 : With so much unknown, the only "concrete" evidence we seem to have rests in the content of the automated failure messages the aircraft sent out. I don
173 JFernandez : I've mentioned it before, the best analogy to where we are right now is probably the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster, where error messages and off-sc
174 Trystero : International Law and specially concerning maritime Law is very tricky, even for lawyers. An input in this matter from an informed source would of gr
175 Dragon6172 : Depending on where any dangerous goods were loaded, is there any chance of lightening hitting just the right spot on the aircraft and interacting bad
176 FCA767 : I'm looking at the 6 hours interval tracker and for one 6 hour it says 651nm please dont shoot me Edited...sorry you are right...it skipped a report.
177 BlueFlyer : ACARS messages are sent by the ACARS MU, which gets its data from the FDAMS. As far as I know (1), independent sensors feed data to the FDAMS for int
178 Dragon6172 : Its all right. I had to double check as well. It was actually 42 hours between reports, so 15.5 an hour. I have never been to that site before, just
179 Post contains links Rscaife1682 : http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/ Someone just found this link in ops thought I would post it here it takes a long time to pull up do to the a
180 USAIRWAYS321 : Good explanation, thanks!
181 Post contains links ChrisK2 : Hi, That's a good one ... In the territorial waters of a specific country, I guess that country would want to be in charge of rescue operations (which
182 DZ09 : I am just finding out that one of my clients from Scotland and working on a project n Brazil, Arthur Coakley, was on that flight. A very nice guy and
183 AmricanShamrok : The 2 EI crewmembers are Polish nationals, as is being reported in the Irish thread. AF have not changed the flight numbers for future flights on thi
184 GlobeEx : So here is my theory, and as far as I'm concerned everything would comply with the altered regulations in case of a malfunction of the ADR, after the
185 JetBlue : I'm surprised that when these messages were relayed to AF HQ about systems failing on the airplane, that GPS coordinates were not included with the in
186 Gigneil : The two systems likely do not speak to each other in that fashion. The monitoring system probably captures alarms and events, but not actual flight da
187 Post contains links 797 : I have not had the chance to read the thread so I share with you all what I found: a nice analysis of the weather in the area specific to AF447: http:
188 Njxc500 : A fantastic description of the weather portion of the situation. Definitely give it a look. Great job everyone on keeping things up to date and factu
189 David L : It doesn't really help a rapidly growing, multi-part thread when it's crammed with posts pouncing on the slightest discrepancies. Read, compare, abso
190 Acabgd : I would agree completely. Nice job at a sinister time. The Brazilians seem to have played this one very much by the book and the result is successful
191 413X3 : A search path that could be hundreds of miles wide is not an easy feat, especially if the weather is unpredictable
192 ChrisK2 : Well, ACARS seems to be a protocol designed in 1978, exchanging messages similar to TELEX. Which means, it's meant to transmit very small chunks of d
193 SeeTheWorld : Wow, that was fascinating. I was also reading from a retired pilot about how thunderstorms in the Convergence Zone are very hard to detect on radar b
194 CityhopperNL : It is definitely in Brazilian coastal waters, maybe its too far out to call it Brazilian territorial waters, but even in international waters the peo
195 Keta : Thanks for the link, makes a very nice description of the weather the flight encountered. It seems like the plane went into quite strong thunderstorm
196 Breiz : Strange world, the media's one. I heard reported on CNN that the following AF447 made it safely to CDG. As if there was a big dragon on the way waiti
197 TristarSteve : The GPS sends position information to the FMC. FMC position information is transmitted by ACARS. The airline decides how often, say every 20/30mins.
198 Acabgd : I highly doubt a merchant ship can do 110 miles per hour
199 JFernandez : Only when the "merchandise" is drugs.
200 Cosmofly : Impressive analysis
201 C680 : ***this is just a theory - if you are not interested, please just skip to the next message*** The more I read, the more this sounds like an in-flight
202 SASDC8 : Anyone have a time (CET) for when the first ship will arrive at the accident/wrechge location? I understand from earlier posts that that Navy ships ar
203 Akhristov : From what I've heard so far, the autopilot probably disengaged itself. It would be pointless for ACARS to send messages every time the pilots disenga
204 FCA767 : yep you and another guy having thought about it now, it does sound a wee bit fast...but then again technology could suprise me
205 FCA767 : It was supposed to be 12:30 Brazil time which passed 2 hours ago nearly...I really want the passengers to be on life rafts even now, it could still h
206 777jaah : I have a small theory of my own regarding those ACARS messages. The plane was already suffering a catasthropic failure, so it started falling from 35.
207 David L : ... plus the fact that they'd have had far more time to send a Mayday. As I've just said, I just don't understand the need to go into such fine detai
208 C680 : I agree with you, but I didn't say that an AP DISC would trigger a CAS message. My point was: A manual cabin dump could trigger a depressurization CA
209 ManuCH : I don't think it's competition. I think it's in human nature to come up with all possible explanations to clear a mystery. I am deeply shocked by thi
210 ChrisK2 : Hi, Why wouldn't they attach posn information to fault messages? To me, the question why positional information should not be transmitted in such ACAR
211 SASDC8 : FCA767: I really hope that you are correct in you hopes. I sincerely hope they find rafts inflated with pax and crew on bord, but I must admit that as
212 EC001 : Hello everyone, A guy on French television, a « specialist », gave some information about some data that the plane automatically sent. According to
213 Akhristov : Yeah, but one of the ACARS messages was A/P disconnect. Yeah, I can't bring myself up to come up with a theory yet... Sounds like lots of things went
214 Acabgd : Yeah, sorry - I've seen you've realised it in the meantime and I understand you just misread the dates, coming to a conclusion it was done in 6 hours
215 Gigneil : That's much more likely to indicate those sensors failing. NS
216 AmricanShamrok : Aer Lingus press release:
217 David L : I did say "some" not "all". It's not so bad in many threads but it doesn't half clog up larger, faster moving ones like this. There's a difference be
218 FCA767 : No it's ok...that's why i did the smile...but now I don't know why there's no news from that vessal...would hope they have found something...I admire
219 TristarSteve : Its all to do with cost. The ACARS messages are expensive. Crews are always being told to limit their use to necessary messages. Over the ocean the m
220 Remcor : I'm not so sure. Would a failed sensor indicate a positive icing condition, or would it report no icing? I didn't build the plane, but it seems more
221 Oroka : My guess is that something (positive lightning, bomb, O2 bottle failure, lost door) caused a cascading structural failure, ripping off some of the ski
222 CityhopperNL : There were 4 ships very close to the location where the debris was spotted, it was said that the "Jo Cedar" was the one closest and that it would rea
223 Acabgd : I'm also wondering at the lack of information. I just hope it takes time to report it - the vessel probably reports to the Brazilian Coast Guard / Na
224 AirlineCritic : No, the first priority of the pilots is to fly the plane. If they are in significant trouble, they have their hands full with trying to save the plan
225 SuseJ772 : Hilarious!
226 Post contains images LipeGIG : This shows Brazilian Territorial waters: With the same flight number ? I heard they cancelled the flight at GIG in favor of another flight number !
227 Eghansen : ACARS is not an emergency system and has nothing to do with position. It is primarily a maintenance system with some uses by payroll and passenger se
228 Rj777 : Man, wonder if any other airlines lost staff members. My condolences to Aer Lingus, Air France, Airbus, and anyone else affected by this terrible trag
229 Hardiwv : According Maratime Law the location of the debris is within Brazilian maritime territory or territorial sea because it is within the 200 nautical mil
230 TristarSteve : Good reason, but there is no UHF on A330 (and 99pc of all airliners)
231 Klwright69 : I believe the above is what they tried on the South African Heldeberg 747 crash. They opened the doors during the emergency descent. It actually fed
232 Hardiwv : The vessels close to the debris area are: - Lexa Maersk, - Jo Cedar, - Ual Texas and - Stolt Inspiration The Dutch flag merchant vessel Jo Cedar was
233 ChrisK2 : Hello, Ah! That explains quite a few things. Wow, Telex. It's amazing this stuff is still used - and it's quite useful, obviously. Though my guess wou
234 Post contains links MadameConcorde : DEBRIS floating on the Atlantic Ocean in the area where a missing Air France passenger jet is suspected of crashing has been sighted by crew on a Fren
235 Post contains links Hardiwv : Maritime Law is regulated by UN under UNCLOS and further information may be found by the UN Division of Ocean Affair and Law of the Seas. Furthermore
236 777jaah : That means at least the first vessel is on site, right??
237 Boeing747_600 : The bottomline is that in the year 2009 (nearly 40 years after we put a man on the moon and brought him back safely) we have had a heavy jetliner disa
238 Hardiwv : The Dutch vessel Jo Cedar is currently on sight. Rgs,
239 AirlineCritic : There are several issues. The first issue is that we don't know if the events described in the messages were a result of the root cause (e.g., turbul
240 RJAF : Well, from an inurance standpoint, the insurance market is expecting a big hit. They expect to put up a reserve of not less than USD 500M. The hull va
241 Hardiwv : Well, do not forget the reinsurance business, they will feel the hit even more. Rgs,
242 MadameConcorde : Apparently not. The Douce France freighter is also reported to be there and to have located some debris.
243 PHBUF : Best reply I've seen in all six threads. Kudos to you
244 Mortyman : Do we know if the Stolt Nielsen ship is actually heading for the area and participating in the search ?
245 Kyair : The lay person does expect this in today's world, no matter how impossible it may be. The mixed blessing/curse of 24 hour news organizations is partl
246 Hardiwv : Yes, it is reported to be heading to the scene. The above vessel was not listed among the vessels near the area. Do we now have 5 vessels? - Lexa Mae
247 Post contains links PPVRA : Lexa Maersk: http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shipposition.phtml?call=OYYL2 Jo Cedar, Ual Texas, and others: http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiploca
248 ChrisK2 : Hello, I'll leave it to you to find the term "200 nautical miles" within the text that you quoted! (It's not in there? Hmmm ... ) But beyond that, eve
249 Hardiwv : This is why in my post I refer to "claim", which has a very clear meaning in international maritime law. Rgs,
250 Cumulus : What input are the British putting into this, if anything? Do we have any Naval units in the area? The British Navy are second to none at this sort of
251 Bjornstrom : Has anyone discussed the possibility of Thunderstorm updrafts and/or Pilot error leading to increased altitudes above "optimum altitude" for the Airbu
252 Hardiwv : Apparently the rescue mission has the input so far of Brazil, France, Senegal, Spain and the US. " target=_blank>http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shi
253 Chootie : Well, since thread 2 I thought I would pray and hope ...... now we basically know that it really happened. My thoughts, prayers and feelings to all th
254 ReguPilot : Best reply so far! Same thoughts here.
255 Pilotaydin : I don't really write non technical things on here but....this accident has really touched me... Everyday that i go to work, when we exit the customs a
256 Boeing747_600 : This has nothing to do with the news media. Its about efficient resource utilisation. Its just unconscionable that in this day and age, 24 hours has
257 Gulfstream650 : Here Here! Probably one of the best posts I've ever read on this website!
258 Flyorski : WOW! Great post, I do not recall reading something so touching on A-net before. From the point of one of the passengers meeting friends and family at
259 Post contains links JetBlasted : Some of the preliminary evidence from this accident reminds me of Southern Airways flight 242 crash 32 years ago. In reading an AOPA article about it
260 Rj777 : I have a feeling Air France will soon axe the 447 flight number out of respect for everyone involved.
261 LHRjc : Sky News here in the UK have Breaking News quoting Reuters as saying wreckage does indeed appear to be that of AF plane
262 Pilotaydin : I don't think the system failed, i think the system sent an ADVISORY, which, lemme get my A330 book out says: CAB VERT SPEED is 1800 ft/min of more C
263 LHRjc : Sky are now quoting the Brazil Defense Minister that there is "no doubt" the wreckage is from the missing plane.
264 Chootie : [WOW!! The best and most heart felt post.... Hats off to you!!
265 F9Animal : Seats? Not good. The plane must have hit the water hard. Not good. Debris fields 35 miles apart? Not good. Sounds like the aircraft broke apart at a
266 AirNZ : No, not necessarily at all. Think of the biggest one so far. In such a generalisation you are way underestimating the reasons for terrorism.......ind
267 David L : Or could it be that the money, effort and resources (none of which are unlimited) have been channelled towards making it far less likely that an airc
268 Kelebek : Not sure if this was already mentioned here. Television here was reporting acc to "Airbus sources" that the automated messages sent to the maintenance
269 Pilotaydin : Well maybe, but keep in mind it's been missing for 24 hours right? So if she hit the water and then broke up, 35 miles is not much drift, a current i
270 Fishmeal : I agree with Flyorski: getting off a long flight and seeing your family member there is such a great feeling. Having to wait and then be told it's not
271 Oroka : Sorry, I ment HF You could put some magnetic rabbit ears on your plane to solve that 99% issue...
272 Post contains links Bjornstrom : I based my assumption on the weather/thunderstorm data here: http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/ It seems like AF447 passed through severe thun
273 Post contains links Moderators : Part 7 http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4432307/
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