Moderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 52496 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Hello chaps,
This is part eight of the discussion, following on from the previous thread:
We understand that media reports are often littered with errors, especially regarding technical areas of aviation. While it may be worth pointing these out, please avoid having the discussion focus on these points - these will be considered off-topic contributions.
Please also remember that it will be likely that the media will be checking this thread; please try to make sure that your posts are conducive to a constructive discussion and are based on facts. Please try to steer away from wild speculation.
As ever, the forum rules apply; remember to focus on the topic in-hand and not other users.
Thanks!
Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2043 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 52532 times:
GMT FIX Remarks
22:03 GIG Departure from Gate
1:33 INTOL Last VHF Cindacta III (Recife Center)
1:48 Left Recife Radar coverage at FL350/453kt
2:00 AF reporting aircraft entered Turbulence Possible voice satcom with crew?
2:14 ACARS BITE message(s) Electrical and Pressurization system failures
2:20 TASIL Negative Contact at this planned time
5:30 At 2:30 AM local time, SALVAERO Recife activated search teams of the Brazilian Air Force - FAB, with one C-130 Hercules aircraft, one sea patrol P-95 Bandeirante and the Air-Land Rescue Squadron (PARASAR).
9:10 ETA to gate at CDG
9:30 First news reports
11:30 AIR FRANCE informed CINDACTA III, at 8:30 AM, Brasilia time, that at approximately 100 km from position TASIL, flight AFR 447 sent a message informing the company of mechanical problems on the aircraft (loss of pressurization and a failure in the electrical system).
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 52139 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Gigneil is correct, even being Airbus, the causes of the crash will be used not only by them, but also by Boeing, Bombardier, Embraer and others, to make sure it wont happen again in similar circumstances.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
KingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1222 posts, RR: 11 Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 51944 times:
Quote: PARIS, France (CNN) -- French officials -- who said there is now no hope that anyone survived the crash of an Air France jet that plunged into the Atlantic -- said Wednesday they may never find the doomed jets' flight data recorders.
This is outrageous. They NEED to make any and all efforts possible to find these black boxes. It took them over seven months to find those of Adam Air 574 (though that was due to funding). They can take that long again here if they want, but they MUST be found. We need to find out what happened and figure out how to prevent it from happening again.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 15616 posts, RR: 90 Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 51811 times:
Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 4): They NEED to make any and all efforts possible to find these black boxes.
They are absolutely committed to finding them. They just want to make it clear that even if they do not, they can and will do a full investigation.
KingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1222 posts, RR: 11 Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 51716 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 5): They are absolutely committed to finding them. They just want to make it clear that even if they do not, they can and will do a full investigation.
I pray that you're right. Thanks for the clarification.
BMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 67 Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 51706 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 5): They are absolutely committed to finding them. They just want to make it clear that even if they do not, they can and will do a full investigation.
All well and good that they are commited to an investigation, but surely, without the black boxes, where would they start? The ACARS transmission??
Icareflies From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 50 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 51596 times:
The French Government, President Sarkozi first, said they will do everything possible to find out what happen even if it takes years.
It was on the Le Figaro French newspaper yesterday, cannot find it at this point.
B747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 16087 posts, RR: 12 Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 51600 times:
Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 4): Quote:
PARIS, France (CNN) -- French officials -- who said there is now no hope that anyone survived the crash of an Air France jet that plunged into the Atlantic -- said Wednesday they may never find the doomed jets' flight data recorders.
This is outrageous. They NEED to make any and all efforts possible to find these black boxes. It took them over seven months to find those of Adam Air 574 (though that was due to funding). They can take that long again here if they want, but they MUST be found. We need to find out what happened and figure out how to prevent it from happening again.
I agree. They really need to find find the black boxes and the wreckage (more wreckage) because what happened is so uncommon and we need to understand what went wrong to prevent it to happen on future flights.
Brazil's patrol vessel Grajau has arrived at the location.
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 5): They are absolutely committed to finding them.
Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 4): This is outrageous. They NEED to make any and all efforts possible to find these black boxes
I think French authorities and all other parties involved ie Brazil are fully committed in finding the black boxes. Brazil President even said that if Brazil can find oil at 6,000 feet below sea level it can also find the black box...
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 724 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 51474 times:
The ADIRU in question was formerly produced by Litton, which now is owned by Northrop Grummann.
This were the ADIRUs in case of the Qantas incidents... don't know if AF or the A332 in general use those (I would guess so!) as the Qantas aircraft was a A330-300. The ADIRU, PN 465020-0303-0316, is also an option for the A340. Apparently EK does have them in their A340-300 and A340-500 I did read.... wonder about their A330.
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 724 posts, RR: 6 Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 51365 times:
Edit:
It makes me wonder, if this exact ADIRU is available on the A332. Apparently EK does have them on their A343 and A345 but not on their A332, which makes you wonder, why they wouldn't have the same on their A330s as on their A340s?!
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
BOACVC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 464 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 51081 times:
Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 16): why they wouldn't have the same on their A330s as on their A340s?!
A340 = 4 engine aircraft and A330 = 2 engine aircraft, maybe ? I would think totally different systems/architecture ?
GlobeEx From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 724 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 50938 times:
Quoting BOACVC10 (Reply 18): A340 = 4 engine aircraft and A330 = 2 engine aircraft, maybe ? I would think totally different systems/architecture ?
Well, why do Qantas A333 have them then?
Apparently there also are derivatives (or the A333's are) of the A32X produced by Litton
Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 17): as my question was not answered in the earlier thread, I re-state it here: does the A332 have a center fuel tank?
YES (EDIT: well you were faster)
[Edited 2009-06-03 07:23:19]
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
Dallasnewark From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 473 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 50699 times:
Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 4): This is outrageous. They NEED to make any and all efforts possible to find these black boxes. It took them over seven months to find those of Adam Air 574 (though that was due to funding). They can take that long again here if they want, but they MUST be found. We need to find out what happened and figure out how to prevent it from happening again.
Chances are the data recorders will never be recovered, 7000 meters deep, mountainous terrain, that would make it near impossible finding them.
Breiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 50711 times:
Quoting B747forever (Reply 11): This is outrageous. They NEED to make any and all efforts possible to find these black boxes. It took them over seven months to find those of Adam Air 574 (though that was due to funding). They can take that long again here if they want, but they MUST be found. We need to find out what happened and figure out how to prevent it from happening again.
I agree. They really need to find find the black boxes and the wreckage (more wreckage) because what happened is so uncommon and we need to understand what went wrong to prevent it to happen on future flights.
Come on guys. You don't need to jump up and down and scream "you NEED to find! you NEED to find". They know that and they will try it.
The official in Paris was only honest to point out that it will be difficult and maybe unsuccessful.
Remember how long it took to find the Titanic, a beast of a target. and the US-French was carefully planned years ahead.
And remember how long it took to find Steve Fossett. And that was on land where search tools are easier to bring along.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 15616 posts, RR: 90 Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 50583 times:
Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 15): It makes me wonder, if this exact ADIRU is available on the A332. Apparently EK does have them on their A343 and A345 but not on their A332, which makes you wonder, why they wouldn't have the same on their A330s as on their A340s?!
EK's A330-200s are much older than the A340-500s and the -300s are -300Es, if I'm not mistaken.
Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 16): as my question was not answered in the earlier thread, I re-state it here: does the A332 have a center fuel tank?
It does.
Quoting BOACVC10 (Reply 17): A340 = 4 engine aircraft and A330 = 2 engine aircraft, maybe ? I would think totally different systems/architecture ?
The A340 and A330 are the same plane with the exception of the engine hardpoints.
Faro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 50286 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12): I think French authorities and all other parties involved ie Brazil are fully committed in finding the black boxes. Brazil President even said that if Brazil can find oil at 6,000 feet below sea level it can also find the black box...
It can indeed, it all depends on how much resources one allocates and who allocates them. Politically, there seems to be mounting impetus to find the boxes; I would not be surprised that France and Brazil end up committing tens of millions of Euros to the search effort, which is what it may well end up costing. I would not even be surprised if they went well over the EUR 50 million mark, you're talking some of the deepest reaches of the Atlantic there...
Chapavaeaa From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 142 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 50295 times:
France, and Brazil...and possibly others will expend a great deal of effort to find the CVR and FDR....but they are just a little bigger than a shoebox. After the World Trade Center 9/11 events American, United, Boeing, FAA, FBI and others examined every piece of debris that came out of the rubble...every piece. A co-worker of mine spent the better part of 9 months or so at the rubble collection point and they didn't find one of the four (2 CVR's, 2 FDR's) units from the aircraft.
That being said, I hope that they find them and find them quickly.
25 BuyantUkhaa: Dutch media reporting a 7-meter piece of wreckage has been found: http://www.nrc.nl/buitenland/article...acht_ontdekt_groot_wrakstuk_Airbus as said by
26 Wexfordflyer: I do agree that if at all possible they must find the CVR and FDR but as dallasnewark stated at that depth with such mountainous terrain then it is go
27 Incitatus: As usual, not a very enlightened comment by the president. The lack of any distress communication started manually by the crew on board points to a s
28 Flyglobal: This came to my mind as well, especially the issue that a somehow smaller issue created the catastrophe. I was reading in the news that not the width
29 AM744: Maybe a Comet style investigation retrieving debris from the bottom of the sea and putting it together. Were those first generation aircraft equipped
30 Haggis79: hm, well then... I may be wrong, but that whole thing rings "TWA800" to me.... at that point in flight, would the center fuel tank be empty, or mostl
31 AirlineCritic: ... but as far as I understand, if you are thinking of TWA800-like incident, there are significant differences between the 747 design and the 330 des
32 Gigneil: They weren't that far into the flight, however, the flight is not that long. I'm not sure it would have had fuel in it at all. NS
33 Klemmi85: doubt that... explosion wouldn't take 4 minutes to get started, would it?
34 LH526: Did they allready performed chemical test to rule out it's not just an ambient polution by a vessel or is it 100% JetA1 fuel?
35 Gigneil: I doubt they have tested the fuel at this point. That slick is in the area of debris, I think its an ok assumption. NS
36 Acabgd: Except that in one of the previous threads a very well known and respected US meteorologist more or less dismissed the idea of hail as it could for m
37 GlobeEx: hm? Agree, I don't think that it did break apart in the air, or at least there was no explosion. So at least it was "pretty much" "one piece" when it
38 BuyantUkhaa: GIG-CDG is 4946nm great circle. According to the data sheet on this site, the range of an A332 is 6400nm (230t MTOW version - I assume it's this one
39 Gigneil: The kid has range for 6650 nm, and usually its a weight problem not a fuel one. But you are right, 4900ish nm plus reserves means there is likely fue
40 Gulfstream650: The first sea vessel has just arrived on scene. I'm sure that will be on the the first things that they will determine. That being said if there are
42 Baroque: In the mid Atlantic, they would be bloody unlucky to fall into the Romanche trench, added to which, it should not have been on their course. http://e
43 Tugger: I would think that the slicks (there may be several, one for each tank) will lead investigators to the majority of the wreckage deep in the sea. As t
44 Haggis79: didn't TWA800 keep "flying" (albeit uncontrolled) for about 10 minutes after the primary explosion? In that case this would have been plenty of time
45 CrimsonNL: Translation (best I could do) A patrol aircraft of the Brazilian air force has located a 7 meter large (or wide) piece of wreckage in the Atlantic Oc
46 JJ8080: Hi everyone. After a few months away from here (been involved in something that took more time than predicted) I'm back. After all that has been said
47 Haggis79: the only thing I can think of that would work (besides the acoustic pingers which exist already) would be some kind of seawater-colouring.... might b
48 Gigneil: Several minutes if its pieces. If there's anything left to produce lift, longer. NS
49 Logos: Actually, IIRC, the center tank was essentially empty on TWA 800 and the ignition of the remaining fumes by faulty wiring was the suspected cause of
50 PPVRA: Would probably be very diluted, and might not necessarily escape the aircraft. A stronger ping, if needed, is probably our best bet.
51 Haggis79: taking the speed of a skydiver as a guidance, a realistic speed of objects in free-fall seems to be about 150-250 km/h. If we presume this assumption
52 Famfflores: Just found the article below, which mentions the second ADIRU problem suffered by Qantas on DEC. 27. What calls may attention is the order of things:
53 AirGabon: http://fr.news.yahoo.com/photos/diap...brazil-plane-d9-73c97dbfdb21&sp=-1 Arrival of an AWACS radar plane at France's military air base in Dakar, Sene
54 Pylon101: It's a kind challenge for investigation: it's almost the worst place for looking black box in the whole Atlantic ocean: up to 7 km deep and mountainou
55 Logos: Actually, the error messages from Columbia did not continue to send after disintegration. There were systems failing (sensors in the stricken left wi
56 GlobeEx: Yes it was, that's why it was able to explode. Try trowing a fag into any kind of fuel. There's not a lot that will happen except that the cigarette
57 Thomson735: on the note of the "explosion" that has been discussed, if this were the case would there be such a large fuel spill in the ocean? i think i read on h
58 JJ8080: So this 250km/h limitation would apply for non-aerodynamic pieces right? If a entire plane "dives" from the sky, then it would be a lot more faster..
59 KingFriday013: Do you mean making the boxes the color of seawater, or making the boxes release some kind of dye into the water so the entire area is a different col
60 BuyantUkhaa: Maybe this one? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8080324.stm It went down to 10,902m.
61 Max550: They have to find the CVR and FDR. I think they will though. It is like a needle in a haystack, but so was finding the wreckage in the first place an
62 Haggis79: correct, although the speed will also depend on the density of the object - the question is essentially at what speed gravitational force and atmosph
63 PPVRA: The French Government has asked ACSA, a French company with an "underwater GPS" product, to help locate the black-boxes. I think the company is on sta
64 Spacecadet: Not to mention freezing cold... Some of you guys are missing one of the most important elements of the TWA 800 explosion, which was heat. That's why
65 SEPilot: TWA 800 took off on a very, very hot day after having the air conditioner pack directly under the center tank running for quite a while. AF447 had be
66 Rleiro: Not necessarily: in the case of PA103 the wings loaded with fuel hit the ground causing a massive fireball that engulfed several homes in Lockerbie.
67 777jaah: I've been saying this for a while now. If you assume a frefall of 7.000 fpm, at 35.000 feet, then you have 7 minutes before crashing. I think a skydi
68 KingFriday013: " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Ai...t_574 Remember how long it took them to find it? Over seven (yes, 7) months. Absolutely despic
69 777jaah: Honestly, that would be the least to be worried about. You already have hyd fluid, oil, debris, etc, etc from a plane crash. Its more enviroment frie
70 Haggis79: I was not thinking of a missile.... I just didn't think of the temperature issue. Thanks for pointing that out!
71 GlobeEx: Well with the ADIRU coming up again and after my post #184 in thread no. 6 which noone really commented I will write some things, which struck me, loo
72 COEWR787: I agree with that assessment. Although the loss of cabin pressure message near the end could be a hint towards some kind of possible structural failu
73 SEPilot: If you are worrying about environmental effects, few people realize that a large amount of crude oil seeps naturally into the sea; far more than huma
74 CasInterest: The pingers will be picked up by Sonar if out there. Sea Coloring would do no good in 5000+feet of water. It is completely dark down there, and there
75 KingFriday013: I agree with you 100%. But tell that to the wildlife conservation extremists who don't want planes flying, period. Sometimes you just can't ever win
76 Acelanzarote: Which could make you wonder what else they (Adam Air) may be getting away with given the chance. Personally will add to my no fly list. However with
77 Caribillo: Density of the object has nothing to do with the speed, as Galileo demonstrated using the Pisa tower.
79 LipeGIG: I agree. With every small piece of the plane they could find. Welcome back It depends if the plane has exploded or not during the fall. Could be 7 to
80 Famfflores: Thanks for the explanation, I found this very interesting. Regarding the text above, it seems that an ADIRU error message was indeed reported to the
81 Haggis79: It absolutely has if you take the atmospheric friction into account.... just try dropping a stone and a piece of cotton wool of similar size and you
82 Hiflyer: As a small FYI AWACS aircraft are basically setup for surface to altitude searching only...not subsurface....great for use in spotting floating debris
83 MD-90: Some one get Woods Hole on the line, we need Alvin! Friday, June 5 will be the 45th anniversary of her commissioning.
84 Flylot: Does anyone have ocean topography of the area? this is the best map I found with a key and it doesn't seem that deep
85 YULWinterSkies: One can't deny there is SOME pollution, yet, for one plane crash, how many commerce ships will offload their toxic fuel residues in the open ocean, t
86 Trojanclipper: According to Wikipedia, Pan Am 103 which was flying at flight level 310, starting hitting the ground within one minute (wing section). Other pieces t
87 Boeing747_600: Well even if the black boxes are found, it is quite likely that owing to an electrical failure, both FDR and CVR would have stopped receiving data th
88 Caribillo: Agree. Did you see my blink? Legend says Galileo used the Pisa tower. Limit speed is a function of the mass (density), frontal area, fluid density an
90 PPVRA: The first updated one flew towards the end of April. I don't think the first one has even been delivered yet. I agree.
91 Max550: Assuming the wikipedia entry is correct, they were both located on January 21, 20 days after the crash. It was seven months later that they were actu
92 NAV20: Truly excellent post, GlobeEx. There already seem to be many correlations. Apart from anything else, previous investigations (of three incidents) app
93 Caribillo: That could be very useful to diagnose the failure. To know that the black boxes stopped working is data aswell.
94 Virgin744: Yes but I'm guessing that the robot is not equipped with the necessary aparatus to cut, hold or retrieve the black boxes & the balck boxes will not n
95 Haggis79: Well, but the "local impact" can be massive... just ask the Spanish fishermen on the coast where the "Prestige" broke apart years ago... the ecosyste
96 OA260: Air France received hoax bomb threat for flight from Argentina http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/15799911/?view=Standard
97 Matheus: Airbus vertical stabilazer is made of composite material, isnt it? Does it floats?
98 Max550: By the time it made it to the surface from 2 miles underwater I'm sure the current would move it pretty far from where the black boxes were.
99 Caribillo: And one of the main problems to find the Titanic was that it is not at the sinking place. In this case could happened the same. One thing is the impa
100 N234nw: Please forgive me if this has been mentioned before, IIRC, the US Navy recovered the cargo door from United 811 in 14,000 feet of water in the Pacific
101 Mandala499: All these talk about Adam Air 574... First thing's first about finding the blackboxes... Until you hear the pings from the blackboxes, we won't know
102 Babybus: I wonder if and how this incident is going to impact on air travel? I too have to fly over oceans to get home and at the moment I'm not happy about it
103 Tugger: That is the advantage of these modern times, we have ROV's that can do a lot of the work while we sit on the surface. Alvin (the manned submersible m
104 474218: You mean like the negative effect from all the ships and aircraft that were sunk during WW II? Fish thrive around the sunken ships and aircraft.
105 777jaah: I'm not. I agree with you, I'm opn your side.... I was referreing and basically respectfully contradicting KingFriday013's post. I guess he meant a n
106 Pliersinsight: Millions, if not billions, in reputation and future aircraft sales for Airbus might be on the line if this goes unsolved, given the previous computer
107 Wdleiser: 1. How hard is it to recover from a stall in a large aircraft like the A330? I fly 172's and all you have to really do is let go of the controls and t
108 GlobeEx: Your Quote makes it look like I wrote that, which I didn't This, I unfortunately can't answer you. However, if you do have other questions about ADRI
109 Dragon6172: When you pressurize a plane you set a "cabin altitude". Usually around 6-8000 feet I believe. A loss of the ability to pressurize will cause that cab
110 Kelebek: Technical question: How does a FDR or CVR know when to actually STOP recording? Taken a plane crashed but not as badly as the cables to the FDR and C
111 CityhopperNL: Absolutely, the same goes for Air France, who will want to present a satisfying conclusion about the crash in order to preserve their 'top class' sta
112 KingFriday013: " target=_blank>http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/...ndard I thought they were going straight to the A350... and that news agencies had finished wi
113 Richierich: Sorry - didn't see a post about this but it appears that more wreckage has been recovered as of today (Wednesday). The media is reporting a metallic o
114 Acheron: As time passes by and more information shows up, I think this is going to be one of those freak accidents where all the things that could go wrong in
115 474218: They will continue to record as long as they remain connected and have electrical power.
116 KingFriday013: Good point, but I was really focusing on the hundreds of species that die from oil and other types of contamination. The post I was referring to was
117 PPVRA: Natural seepage, not by an old well, literally natural. All kinds of things underground seep up to the surface. I guess all you need is some pressure
118 Kelebek: Thanks, 474218 for the information. Interesting that this fact obviosly never turned out to be a problem.
119 Matheus: It might be the vertical stabilazer, thats why I asked if it floats or not, as it is made of some kind composite material.
120 Dragon6172: I believe some have a g-switch that will stop the recording when the switch trips. In fact I believe this has happened in a previous accident where t
121 JFernandez: Question about floating debris - since the A332 is predominantly made out of composites, does that make the debris more likely to float in such an acc
122 GlobeEx: Well, that depends of the stall. Actually you shouldn't be able to stall an A330 at all. However in ALTN Law you can, which was the case in AF447. We
123 Breiz: Try this one: http://www.maps.com/map.aspx?pid=15757
124 Wjcandee: The results of which will be highly speculative.
125 PPVRA: Not necessarily. Many boats are made with composite materials and sink all the time. Air pockets is most likely what will make it float, imo.
126 HAWK21M: SSCVRs are recording the last 2 hrs of the flight until the CB is withdrawn. The SSFDR works as long as the Aircraft is in Air OR the Engines are run
127 GlobeEx: That would be my guess as well, however, if you remember AA587 it was the first clue, as the stabelizer was floating on the sea, "far" apart from the
128 Famfflores: A Brazilian media website reports that the Senegalese government contacted the Brazilian government saying they found debris inside their waters appar
129 Tugger: This is what is being done: MUCH faster and the buoys coverage will be excellent. If the pinger's are still active (how long can they last, 48-72hrs?
131 NA: Among other military stuff there are quite lot of pictures taken during the search flights for finding AF447: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sho
132 Richierich: I think is a pretty good guess. And it would leave NO doubt as to the source of the debris they are finding (I have a feeling the searchers have foun
133 Growly150: Forgive me if this has been asked but do they make black boxes that can float? And if not why?
134 Hiflyer: Per NTBS pingers good to 14,000 feet submerged and for 30 days. The black boxes are 20,000 feet and 30 days. I would suspect that the P3..if it does
135 Pylon101: If black boxes are not found in such high profile case - it will lead to manufacturing of black boxes which are able to transmit all data base stored.
136 TylerDurden: How can you do a full investigation without the flight data recorder, cockpit voice recorder, and any wreckage? I'd think it would be a guess, at bes
137 David L: Regardless of what caused this accident, think about how many of the same aircraft fly thousands of miles every day without incident. Even if it turn
138 Oakmad: I spoke with my father about this. He spent a lot of time during the cold war designing, developing and testing different sonar systems for the Navy.
139 JJ8080: Thanks. Agree. I think very alike you. And this theory has also very solid base on the fact that there was no emergency communication by the pilots.
140 Multimark: So Air France has become the first carrier to lose an A330 in regular service AND the first carrier to lose an A340 in regular service?!
141 LipeGIG: Brazilian Press says authorities are investigating a possible connection between a bomb warning on a EZE-CDG May 27 flight and the accident of AF447 G
142 474218: When those ships were sunk they were loaded with millions of gallons of oil and no permanent damage was done. I don't know about a g-switch, I have s
144 777jaah: Well, if that's so, one might need to know or figure out at what altitude it was really a freefall.....That might be true at the very end of the fall
145 AirlineCritic: Not necessarily. Are you assuming that the electrical failure was the *start* of the problems? This is not clear, it could also have been a result of
146 BA84: And the first to lose a Concorde. Unfortunate, but irrelevant. BA84
147 David L: I'm still trying to find the details of that message. Did it specify in which direction the cabin altitude was rapidly changing?
148 MadameConcorde: Sadly. Different circumstance. From the BEA conclusions it wasn't Concorde that was faulty. We all know what happened. Quite a tragic accident visibl
149 BA84: "Cabin altitude" means pressurization altitude. BA84
150 David L: They could at least give some clue as to what was happening while those ACARS messages were being sent. I doubt they'd show nothing useful if they ca
151 JJ8080: Agree. If this was a terrorist attack, some terrorist organization would have already said something, otherwise there would be no "reason" for that..
152 David L: I know - that's why I was asking. It seems pretty relevant to me that the direction (rising or falling) is important.
153 RedFlyer: Aircraft accident investigations were performed for decades without access to black boxes. FDRs came into common use in the 60's and CVRs came into c
154 RedFlyer: Respectfully, I have to disagree. If some scumbag(s) brought the plane down via an explosive device then they would not want to draw attention to the
155 Emaman: and the first to lose a concorde in commercial service.....
156 David L: Let's leave the Concorde accident out of this, along with who was the first to lose whatever type of aircraft. It will only end in tears. The results
157 BA84: Surely it would be a decompression, unless there was an explosion. BA84
158 PanAm1971: I'm a little concerned about the tone of French officials about finding the boxes. They seem resigned to not finding them.
159 Bwohlgemuth: I wouldn't be. Classic under-promising. People will be relieved when they find them, not ticked when they don't.
160 JJ8080: Well, i think if someone did it, they would be already gone "underground" by the time of the attack, since they would know when this would take place
161 Emaman: I think terrorism is a possibility, and should not be ruled out.
162 NA: Yes, and actually AF lost two A340s already, both burned, one due to an accident in active service in 2005, the other one during maintenance in 1994.
163 Virgin744: Sorry if its already been posted but this is very interesting and telling article. It appears to rule out terrorism and now most likely cause was thun
164 Famfflores: Globex, I could not find if the captains in those flights from Qantas where ADIRU problems were reported managed to send any radio contact regarding
165 Richierich: RedFlyer is correct about the PA103 investigation. That crash occurred soon after the shootdown of an IranAir A300 and retaliation had been 'promised
166 Khobar: The initiating event may not have been Concorde's fault, but Concorde's design flaws certainly contributed to its loss. The same was true with AA587
167 Caribillo: What amazes me is the fact that the IB A340 doing the same flightpath 15min behind didn't noticed anything "extrange" for that area. I am pretty sure
168 Emaman: Yes, based on statistics. They do seem however unlucky, the concorde was bad luck and we are unsure of the cause here yet. There was only Toronto whe
170 DAL763ER: Do take into consideration that the 346 is heavier than the 332. So turbulence would seem heavier on the latter.
171 TylerDurden: British investigators and former Concorde pilots refuted a lot of the findings---particularly in view of the 70 tire failures in Concorde over the pr
172 GlobeEx: I mean, come on, they can't be serious. Are they trying to tell us that the ACARS was able to send a message about de-pressurization due to the fact
173 JJ8080: Thanks for the interesting info Virgin744. IIRC, we have every day around 37 planes on Brazil-Europe route. How would ONLY Air France plane pass thro
174 Caribillo: Is the weight difference so big to take down an A332 and not to affect an A346? Ummmmm........
175 David L: Why, unless the information is in the ACARS message? Oh please. Don't try to read between the lines and guess what they "really mean". The reports ab
176 GlobeEx: Hm, that's what I would guess,... and what I read in the QF report. However, as it is the primarily report, there are a lot but not a huge amount of
177 TUNisia: It's still amazing that people here are ignorantly disregarding the possibility that it could be terrorism or some other form of in-flight explosion.
178 CityhopperNL: So, this is the in-flight break up scenario, which will trigger the big question on how they ended up in such a heavy storm in the first place. It's
179 Caribillo: It is amazing that people here are obsessively considering that any catastrophe is a terrorist act. This is an aviation forum. We love to talk about
180 JoseMEX: And the first A320 loss as well, at Mulhouse in 1988
181 CokePopper: Agreed. What if this was just a test for bigger things to come? Then why would they make themselves known?
182 TUNisia: All possibilities need to be considered... what makes most sense to you?
183 EMA747: Would it be possible for a small explosion (I am thinking non-terrorist) to puncture the skin of the plane but no blow it apart completely? If such a
184 Matheus: But why a Air France airplane? Plus private, cargo and flights coming from Argentina, Uruguay and Chile, also the majority of the them are at night, e
185 Ferengi80: Surely with all the modern technology that is available, finding the black boxes won't be too difficult when the wreckage is found. I'm guessing that
186 Richierich: Seamen talk about 'rogue waves' that sometimes are formed on the open ocean, sometimes 10-20 times bigger than any other waves around them. Sometimes
187 TristarSteve: These ACARS messages are straight from the Maint Computor. If one was about cabin pressure it would be low cabin pressure, or high cabin altitude. Th
188 GlobeEx: Sorry, I will elaborate: Because you will have to understand a part of the problem first. The problem of the ADIRU itself is not really the problem,
189 Multimark: If this is true, is this the first time turbulence or weather has caused a crash while inflight (as opposed to take-off/landing)?
191 CityhopperNL: My biggest concern would be localizing the black boxes right now. The 30 day ping signals are a unique chance of finding the thing in a relatively ea
192 GlobeEx: That is what I'm thinking. Catastrophes are chains of unfortunate events. If it turns out to be what I'm thinking, really unfortunate events.
193 Famfflores: I agree with you on this. These events from Qantas and now AF do really look too much similar.
194 David L: Even in a rapid descent, i.e. a "plummet"? Earlier in the series of threads someone mentioned an ACARS message relating to "cabin vertical speed". If
195 Hardiwv: If anyone is interested, here are some images of Fernando de Noronha archipelago: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=397895 Rgs,
196 Canoecarrier: "If this is true, is this the first time turbulence or weather has caused a crash while inflight (as opposed to take-off/landing)?" Clear air turbule
197 Famfflores: yes, absolutely. did receive your message and returned. I´m a little late with this, since i´m having some problems uploading this page. Best Regar
198 ChrisK2: Hello, I don't think that anything (aside from the UFO theories ) can be really ruled out at this moment since the investigation hasn't been concluded
199 GlobeEx: All you have to keep in mind with my theory is, that the fact that a decompression took place is no contradiction, might even enforce the whole theory
201 Famfflores: I´m not sure if this has been posted yet, but gives more info on the first Qantas ADIRU ocurrance. Very good reading. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publicat
202 MarSciGuy: Thankfully I've never witnessed a rogue wave in person, and hope never to do so - One of the theories about rogue waves dvelopment is through constru
203 Rj777: The fact that a bomb threat was sent to Air France the day before just seems a little too eerie to me.
204 Caribillo: Is there any warning or message that the pilots could read in order to know that they aren't on normal law anymore? Very important to avoid abnormal
205 Emaman: I dont see how you could rule out terrorism so strenuously. It is a possibility. I agree that there are a mulitude of other possibilities. As was men
206 SDWranglers: Yes, one that comes to mind is BOAC Flight 911 back in 1966. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOAC_Flight_911
207 NA: Wow, nice place indeed. I thought I knew most of the world, at least the nicer places, from the map or pictures or by visiting in person, but not thi
208 GlobeEx: Well first of all, if they indeed switched the ADC of, they knew that they were ALTN Law... and if they didn't they should be informed by the ECAM(?!
209 Wjcandee: Dry run. Happened before. Also, Bin Laden didn't take credit for WTC for some time thereafter. Libya didn't ever take credit for Pan Am 103. You conf
210 Klwright69: I agree. The French are underpromising. I think the pressure to find the black boxes is enormous, as it always is. Also recall that there have been a
211 David L: We get such theories here almost every time an aircraft crashes. The only redeeming factor for such a theory in this case is that there were no eye w
212 GlobeEx: Yeah, but that was pretty awsome how they figured out what the problem was . They put an aircraft into a watertank and simulated the pressure 100s of
213 IDISA: First of all my deepest ans sincere condolences to all the families and friends of the pax o/b AF447, involved in this tragedy. It's quite hard to get
214 SeeTheWorld: I guess my main skepticism regarding terrorism is the weather. Had the flight disappeared from 35,000 feet in clear weather, I believe terrorism woul
215 Haggis79: terrorist ploys are not usually "tested" - why would you? Just increases your risk of being discovered before you can actually execute your plan... A
216 AirNZ: Absolutely disagree, and not necessarily the case at all as I stated before. What terrorist organization said anything after 9/11? May I ask on what
217 KingFriday013: Have there been any new updates since we first saw the photos of the oil slick? I'm hearing all this speculation, but we still truly know very little.
218 OA260: I totally agree also. We were discussing it at work today and alot of people said that they seem to be totally discounting that even though there is
219 DaBuzzard: Certified for a minimum of 30 days operation, so I would expect them to actually operate much longer than that. Given that they know where the debris
220 UALWN: I believe that on May 31st IB6024 was operated with a 343, not a 346. A friend of mine was on that plane and told me he didn't recall any noticeable
221 Haggis79: well, since the plane actually came down, it wouldn't have been a "dry" run, would it? Bin Laden took credit for WTC I think within 24 hours - but ev
222 ChrisK2: Hello, Well, we're speculating. So we've got to try and balance the relative likelihoods of things happening. To me, the weather analysis perfomed on
223 777jaah: That's why I think no one can rule out terrorim here. So far, with the info we all know, it fits. Of course, many other theories also fit, but keep a
224 Fsnuffer: If it was a terrorist bomb they will be able to determine that without the black boxes. There would be forensic evidence of explosive residue on piece
225 GlobeEx: Hm, well, this would definately decrease the possibility of such an event. As far as I know (don't know about the ones for the A330) Northrop and Hon
226 Honeythief: After several years of reading the A.net forums, I felt that I needed to dip my toe in and make a point that I don't believe has been made throughout
227 UALWN: The ADIRU-based theory is indeed intriguing. However, some questions come to mind: 1) A330/340 have been around for about 15 years, yet those two ADI
228 Boeing747_600: Well if the flight parameters upto that point indicate a trend towards failure, then I'll concede that that's useful information. However if the flig
229 Keta: It's indeed strange that no other plane reported strong turbulence. I'm not implying anything, but turbulence (and lightning so as to speak) is a ran
230 Jbernie: Regarding the terrorism possibility, lets not forget that they might just not say anything as they got a free pass. Plane happens to fly into a big st
231 GlobeEx: I just gave it a thought, and I don't want to stick to the theory I have if there's would definately be no point in it, however for this I would like
232 SeeTheWorld: No one is saying that terrorism has been ruled out - only that it is unlikely because 1) there is no evidence or patten that it was, and 2) there is
233 Rampart: I think that's an interesting observation. If weather is a, or the, factor for this disaster, we will begin to learn a lot more about tropical weathe
234 Steeler83: After reading all the posts about possible terrorism here, I am beginning to dismiss that myself. I do have to ask why this plane went right into the
235 Aero145: It puzzles me how much people are mentioning terrorism here. Currently, nobody knows what happened. Yes, it COULD be that it was a terrorist act, or C
236 Giopan1975: Hello everybody - just joined the forum - I wish I had joined for some other reason other than this horrible accident.... The unthinkable happened...
237 ChrisK2: Hello, Could also mean they get five bomb threats a week and don't talk about it. Would you fly with an airplane if you knew how many bomb threats the
238 Bond007: I don't see why an extreme thunderstorm causing an airliner to break up, is any 'more likely' than a terrorist attack. We have no clue what happened,
239 AirlineCritic: I thought it might be useful to summarize the status of various speculations regarding the cause of this accident, and try to see how it matches up to
240 AA757MIA: The pressure at that depth must be tremendous. Are the black boxes strong enough to 'survive' after being in such environments for days/weeks?
241 CF-CPI: I need clarification on the ADIRU, and my apologies if it has already been covered in this immense multi-thread. Anyhow, Is the ADIRU malfunction in a
242 David L: Well, there's plenty of evidence that there was some bad weather around but not much evidence of a bomb... unless the alleged bomb warning can be giv
243 FlyLKU: Good point. And we have a better idea of where this wreckage is located. The wreckage, of which we may have limited amounts, will reveal some clues.
244 Cumulus: With this "always on" datalink feeding information regarding the Aircraft systems, why is no system in place where the information that is routed to t
245 KingFriday013: While I've never had a problem with Wikipedia, it is editable by anyone. For that reason, I'd recommend you (and everyone, for that matter) avoid ref
246 AirlineCritic: I do not want to turn this thread into a debate about Wikipedia, but lets just say there are different opinions about this. In any case, I'd prefer t
247 Cosmofly: Translated using Google Source: http://www.liberation.fr/monde/01015...-ne-volait-pas-a-l-altitude-prevue The last four minutes 23 h: the commander of
248 Boeing747_600: Not quite in this category, but also not included in your excellent list of potential causes is the possibility of a deliberate act by an individual
249 Bond007: Aircraft fly around 'bad weather' everyday, and nobody expects them to break up. The fact that the aircraft was in the vicinity of bad weather, is no
250 Richierich: OK, I agree. You are more than likely right on this one. Thanks for only making it sound semi-condescending. I fail to see how you guys are jumping o
251 PPVRA: More parts reportedly found, this time they said some of them are "internal parts", including "blue, triangular parts" and other metallic parts.
252 David L: That would be "equipment/apparatus/system", not "camera". It's usually worth proof-reading after using translation tools. There it is again. So we do
253 Incitatus: Go to the Brazilian version of the wikipedia page of the Sao Pedro Sao Paulo Rocks, accessible from the English one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sain
254 Max550: Brazil's Defense Minister is saying that the oil stains in the water could rule out an explosion or fire on the flight. Would that make sense? I would
255 PPVRA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair_Flight_111 I'm surprised we haven't heard of any Navies sending in submarines to the area. They are good at fin
256 Boeing747_600: Merely listing terrorism or sabotage as possible causes does not constitute "jumping on the terrorism bandwagon". I have not come across any post cla
257 Krje1980: I am quite a novice when it comes to understanding airplane technology, but, having just rewatched the Swissair 111 episode of Air Crash Investigation
258 ThrottleHold: Turbulence can be extremely localised. Earlier this year I was operating eastbound on the NAT's when a BA 777, which was 1000ft below us and 70 miles
259 Honeythief: I respect and understand what you're saying, but the evidence we have at the moment is very limited and all I was trying to say is let's not leave an
260 Gulfstream650: At FL350 and at 450kts, I'm sure this plane would have broken up very quickly. Would have taken about 4 mins 40 secs (head sum) for the aircraft to tr
261 David L: Yes, but it has happened in the past. But it's evidence that bad weather was definitely there and whatever happened this time occurred in the vicinit
262 Pihero: There are a few more modern subs than Alvin, and with better performances... For instance the ones operated by Ifremer : the "Nautile" and the "Cyana
263 David L: Ah, the cavalry has arrived! Thanks. A couple of people tried to tell me that but I couldn't quite dismiss the possibility of the message being genera
264 Meristem: Has anyone seen any graphics or discussion related to the oceanic currents in that area of the Atlantic, and possible paths of dispersal for a debris
265 VikingA346: I don't mean to be rude but if the BA 777 was on the same track as you, wouldn't it have to be at least 2000ft below? 1000 ft below wouldn't follow t
266 ADent: The second Qantas A330 ADIRU failure: The pilots saw the failure and disconnected it. However the normal law flight controls still look at it for data
267 Lowrider: No. The tracks are 1 way and use 1000 foot spacing.
268 Viscount724: That doesn't apply with the North Atlantic Track System procedures. The daily NATL tracks are separate in each direction and as far as I know altitud
269 ThrottleHold: That rule doesn't apply on the NAT's. Tracks are one direction only with 1000ft vertical, 60nm lateral and 10 minute (soon to be 5 minute) longitudin
270 Iakobos: That is impossible to tell......no Mayday was received (or heard) seems a correct statement. If the pilots tried or not to send a distress call canno
271 Springbok747: While terrorism may not have been the cause of this tragedy, I still don't understand how they can completely rule it out, especially after the fact t
272 Gulfstream650: Low level stuff as far as I am concerned. I'm not an airline pilot, not exactly sure what they do way up there!
273 Pihero: This is one example of this argument. Can't add anything more to this reply : And don't forget that the captain of this flight has taken the pains to
274 JBirdAV8r: The defense minister has made lots of bad assumptions and hypotheses so far. I don't understand why he insists on spreading baseless conjecture to th
275 YULWinterSkies: Of course it's possible. Do you think gas bottles, explosives, flammable goods, etc are prohibited on board, in luggage, and as cargo for no reason?
276 David L: People are reading too much into this. It means that they have no particular reason to focus on it unless they get evidence to the contrary. It does
277 Pihero: On a long flight, at night and on one of the remotest parts of the world ( aviation speaking), 1/- as per SOPs, the pilots keep a constant watch on t
278 Bullpitt: Hi all I Have a couple of questions some of you might be able to answer 1) Would both the AF and the IB flight path be very similar. Or could they hav
279 PPVRA: "A existência da mancha de óleo pode dar ideia de que não houve uma explosão. Não há possibilidade ainda [de saber as causas]" http://www1.folh
280 Haggis79: I'd almost bet that this accident will turn out to be one of those where there's always people suspecting a conspiracy or a badly conducted examinati
281 C680: I proposed this theory yesterday, but obviously, I agree with you: Fire, that took out the HF and VHF radios early in the process.
282 Prebennorholm: Press has reported that there is a quite strong current in the area. Also that the current has different speed and different direction at variouts de
283 LHR380: This is from a article on the bbc news website ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8082241.stm ) Seen a few storm pics, but this is the most
284 PPVRA: *Numerous objects found in a 5km radius *One object of 7m in diameter *Ten objects, some of them metallic *20km of oil spills FIR Dakar SAR ops are ov
285 SKY1: Hello Bullpitt. According to an IB pilot, fellow in our Spanish "apuestaforo" aviation forum, the IB A340 was 10 minutes behind on the same airway fl
286 Tugger: Well one part of that answer would be to look at the images from 2:00UTC not 2:15. In fact I would want to see the 1:30 and 1:45 images as well. THAT
287 Moderators: Please continue the discussion here: AF A332 Missing (F-GZCP) - Part 9 Per forum policy, any posts that appear after this message will be deleted. If
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 427 posts, 
From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 1947 posts, 
From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, 
From Sweden, joined May 2007, 16087 posts, 
From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 724 posts, 
From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 473 posts, 
From France, joined Mar 2005, 1735 posts, 
From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1327 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
