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AF A332 Missing (F-GZCP) - Part 9  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 511 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 52489 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Hello,

This is part nine of the discussion of AF447, following on from the previous thread:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4433331/


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We understand that media reports are often littered with errors, especially regarding technical areas of aviation. While it may be worth pointing these out, please avoid having the discussion focus on these points - these will be considered off-topic contributions.

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246 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGulfstream650 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 52400 times:

I fear that this crash will end up being a mystery. Forever.


I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10399 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 52402 times:

From SKY1 in the previous thread.....


"Hello Bullpitt. According to an IB pilot, fellow in our Spanish "apuestaforo" aviation forum, the IB A340 was 10 minutes behind on the same airway flying FL370 whereas the AF A330 was on flight level 350. http://www.apuestaforo.com/showpost.php?p=7669&postcount=67"



If that's the case, wouldn't the IB flight have experienced much the same weather as the AF flight as they were only 2000 feet higher and only 10 minutes behind?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5529 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 52365 times:



Quoting LHR380,reply=283-Reply To AF A332 Missing (F-GZCP) - Part 8:

Seen a few storm pics, but this is the most clearest one I have seen, I do hope we find the reason as to why it flew right into the heart of it.

Well one part of that answer would be to look at the images from 2:00UTC not 2:15. In fact I would want to see the 1:30 and 1:45 images as well. THAT will give you an idea of what the pilots were dealing with and planning for.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineFamfflores From Brazil, joined Jun 2009, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 52336 times:

Tv Globo in Brazil just showed a program mentioning two possible reasons, already mentioned in this forum: (i) strong turbulance and (ii) the ADIRU issue. Relating to the last one, they mentioned that AF confirmed that the ADIRUs used by AF were diffrerent than the ones used by Qantas. Nevertheless, the software (laws, etc) are the same, and this should be the focus of the investigation.

Very interesting.


User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 52087 times:

It's not easy to narrow down possibilities like we're trying to.
Personally, I finally had some time to read this report (previously posted):

http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

I'm no pilot but it gives the impression that weather could be a big factor.
Countering that is the fact that other flights did not experience any problems on the same route.

Regarding the bomb possibility, well I tend to doubt that because terrorism depends a lot on psychological impact, and the most impact would have been achieved immediately after the plane was lost. Letting time go by without a claim is actually counterproductive.

Lots of interesting theories, but the bottom line is that we don't know anything yet.
There is so much hurt going around that we're all desperate for answers.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 52089 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 2):
If that's the case, wouldn't the IB flight have experienced much the same weather as the AF flight as they were only 2000 feet higher and only 10 minutes behind?

Yes, that's the point! But --so far I know-- the Iberia's A340 just reported "bad weather"
but not "extremely bad weather". When already in Madrid, crew said to see nothing strange more than typical bad weather from that equatorial area.



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 52029 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 2):
If that's the case, wouldn't the IB flight have experienced much the same weather as the AF flight as they were only 2000 feet higher and only 10 minutes behind?

Agree. And also, never imagined that any kind of storm could cause a airplane crash!

Quoting Famfflores (Reply 4):
Tv Globo in Brazil just showed a program mentioning two possible reasons, already mentioned in this forum: (i) strong turbulance and (ii) the ADIRU issue. Relating to the last one, they mentioned that AF confirmed that the ADIRUs used by AF were diffrerent than the ones used by Qantas. Nevertheless, the software (laws, etc) are the same, and this should be the focus of the investigation.

Saw that... Regarding this, is it possible that the airplane computers wouldn't let the pilots to take manual control of it at all? I mean, that's gotta be some way to just put all automatic controls off doesn't metter the situation....



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineFlyboy2001 From Canada, joined May 2005, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 52037 times:

I have been too busy to follow every post in all the threads, so I apologise if this has been mentioned...

http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

It's a really detailed description of the meteorological conditions AF447 would have experienced, along with opinions as to how this may have affected the A330. For those with a bit or a lot of Met knowledge, it's definitely worth a read!



And you... Revolution, or just resistance?
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 51980 times:



Quoting 757GB (Reply 5):

Regarding the bomb possibility, well I tend to doubt that because terrorism depends a lot on psychological impact, and the most impact would have been achieved immediately after the plane was lost. Letting time go by without a claim is actually counterproductive.

The only thing that concerns me about that is what I read about the plot in the UK in 2006 where IIRC the bombers were going to keep downing planes without any sort of claim of responsibility to cause maximum panic and concern.

We'll have to wait and see on this one!


User currently offlineLatinThug From Portugal, joined Jan 2007, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 51587 times:

Guys where can i find a map showing all the different countries airspace / atlantic ocean... especially where the Recife airspace finished and the dakar one started.

User currently offlineQFMel From Australia, joined Jun 2009, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 51474 times:

A couple of posts in the previous thread touch on the issue of making the CVR/FDR more readily identifiable at depth. In more than 10,000ft of water, I'd doubt you're going to much of a positive effect if you simply up the power of the ULB. Sonobyous dropped by helos or maritime patrol aircraft or ships with towed arrays will probably be no more or less effective; pinging is pinging.

As ever, the central issue remains finding debris and trying to narrow down the area in which the CVR/FDR are likely to be found.

It goes without saying that these devices are fairly sturdy. I'm not sure if they already do this, but tagging with radioactive isotopes would aide in their discovery in some instances- but in this situation you'd have to guess it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.

[Edited 2009-06-03 17:06:47]

User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4277 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 51250 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 2):
wouldn't the IB flight have experienced much the same weather as the AF flight as they were only 2000 feet higher and only 10 minutes behind?

Not necessarily. A lot depends on the speed of the cell (the cell could have moved out of the path by the time the IB 340 passed the same area), whether the storm was growing, mature, or dying at the time each plane entered the storm (individual thunderstorms usually do not last very long, although there are of course exceptions, but have regenerating storms inside or close by them, from what I remember), and other variables. If the theory is that the storm was building at the time the AF 332 flew through it, it could have experienced much different weather within the same cell than the IB 340 that passed through it ten minutes later, when the cell could have been mature or dying. Unfortunately, it is still just too early to tell what happened, even within a particular cell in a thunderstorm, without more data.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 51110 times:



Quoting Flyboy2001 (Reply 8):

We probably posted at the same time, but I did see that link in the previous thread.
I was amazed by the information, though I'm no expert.
I agree it's definitely worth reading it.  thumbsup 



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5529 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 51111 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 2):
If that's the case, wouldn't the IB flight have experienced much the same weather as the AF flight as they were only 2000 feet higher and only 10 minutes behind?



Quoting Tugger (Reply 3):
Quoting LHR380,reply=283-Reply To AF A332 Missing (F-GZCP) - Part 8:

Seen a few storm pics, but this is the most clearest one I have seen, I do hope we find the reason as to why it flew right into the heart of it.

Well one part of that answer would be to look at the images from 2:00UTC not 2:15. In fact I would want to see the 1:30 and 1:45 images as well. THAT will give you an idea of what the pilots were dealing with and planning for.



Quoting 757GB (Reply 5):
Personally, I finally had some time to read this report (previously posted):

http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

I'm no pilot but it gives the impression that weather could be a big factor.
Countering that is the fact that other flights did not experience any problems on the same route.

The reports by the AF flight just ahead of them could be why they flew the course they flew. With the other flight reporting not much bad turbulence they plotted that course as the best option. And in the meantime a front blew up directly in front of them, just after the other flight passed.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 50739 times:



Quoting Tugger (Reply 14):
The reports by the AF flight just ahead of them could be why they flew the course they flew. With the other flight reporting not much bad turbulence they plotted that course as the best option. And in the meantime a front blew up directly in front of them, just after the other flight passed.

Very interesting, thank you. One question: how would pilots balance reports from other a/c against what their own radar is showing? I realize that could be different depending on the pilot. Are there specific procedures? I'm asking because I don't know.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently onlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 50742 times:



Quoting Tugger (Reply 14):
The reports by the AF flight just ahead of them could be why they flew the course they flew. With the other flight reporting not much bad turbulence they plotted that course as the best option. And in the meantime a front blew up directly in front of them, just after the other flight passed.

But they still have a weather radar on-board and could have requested a rerouting around the storm cell.

I don't believe in the theory weather brought down an A330 flying at FL350.

We will have to see, but I think something like QF 30 could happened. Cables caught fire (that would explain the ACARS message about the short circuit) or an exploded o2 bottle, something small what caused great problems...


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 50421 times:



Quoting CARST (Reply 16):
I don't believe in the theory weather brought down an A330 flying at FL350.

Though turbulence itself could bring an airliner down, I think that if weather is a direct cause of the accident it would be via a rare phenomenon like positive lightning rather than just a thunderstorm.

It is also well within the realm of possibility that the weather severely exacerbated another problem the caused the plane's demise.

All of this is speculation of course.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineYWG747 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 50348 times:

I have faith that they will find the black boxes.
i just think it will take quite a while for this to happen.
I am pretty sure a submarine will find it.


User currently offlineSparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 50064 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

If a cargo door could be found on the bottom of the Pacific 20 years ago,Im sure the data recorders will be recovered from this flight.I hope so.
Sparky


User currently offlineAVLNative From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 50053 times:

There are additional details in this AP article that I have not seen before...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...CJAC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

The pilot sent a manual signal at 11 p.m. local time saying he was flying through an area of "CBs" - black, electrically charged cumulonimbus clouds that come with violent winds and lightning. Satellite data has shown that towering thunderheads were sending 100 mph (160 kph) updraft winds into the jet's flight path at the time.

Ten minutes later, a cascade of problems began: Automatic messages indicate the autopilot had disengaged, a key computer system switched to alternative power, and controls needed to keep the plane stable had been damaged. An alarm sounded indicating the deterioration of flight systems.

Three minutes after that, more automatic messages reported the failure of systems to monitor air speed, altitude and direction. Control of the main flight computer and wing spoilers failed as well.

The last automatic message, at 11:14 p.m., signaled loss of cabin pressure and complete electrical failure - catastrophic events in a plane that was likely already plunging toward the ocean.

"This clearly looks like the story of the airplane coming apart," the airline industry official told The Associated Press. "We just don't know why it did, but that is what the investigation will show."

French and Brazilian officials had already announced some of these details, but the more complete chronology was published Wednesday by Brazil's O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper, citing an unidentified Air France source, and confirmed to the AP by the aviation industry source.


User currently offlineHinckley From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 49882 times:

Excuse me if I have missed this dicussion, but doesn't the wide area over which debris is being found indicate that the plane broke up in mid-air as opposed to crash landing in the ocean?

User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 49789 times:



Quoting AVLNative (Reply 20):

Thanks for sharing. It helps to bring it all into focus. Maybe by analyzing data already available investigators might be able to start piecing together what happened.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 49701 times:



Quoting AVLNative (Reply 20):

When you put the events like that with the cascade of failures one after another in fairly quick succession it sounds a lot like what happens in an in-flight fire.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8005 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 49297 times:

I think in the end, the data from the recovered flight data recorders will be CRITICAL in determining an initial guess on the cause of the loss of this plane. Because F-GZCP was only delivered recently, that means the plane will have the latest in flight data recorder designs, where it can survive some extreme conditions and offer a huge amount of detail of the final moments of the flight.

It all comes down to this: did the FDRs suddenly stopped recording flight data and cockpit voice recording after what appears to be a "normal" flight? (For those not old enough to remember the loss of Pan Am 103, that plane's FDRs instantly stopped recording when the bomb exploded over Lockerbe, Scotland.) If the data from the F-GZCP's FDRs show lots of abnormal movements on the movable aerodynamic surfaces on the plane and just as much abnormal changes in pitch, roll and yaw and noted the cockpit voice recordings of the flight crew tryiing to recover from the out-of control situation until the plane crashed, then a mechanical and/or fly-by-wire control system failure has to be considered.


25 Railker : Stuff floats, and ocean currents carry that floating stuff farther than where it landed. What incident was it where they were finding plane parts and
26 Thomson735 : AF is still doing AF447 in an A330 on their website.... i am interested has this flight operated since?
27 Rj777 : Have they pulled "The Big Piece" out of the water yet?
28 JJ8080 : Yes it did, what I actually find very strange, since IIRC, airlines normally change the flight number for certain route after any accident.
29 BAalltheway : So many theories, most plausible. A few questions, maybe some have been answered, but tough to go through all 9 parts of this thread and all replies.
30 Post contains images ZKNBS : Just aweful to think about the aircraft being ripped apart slowly and the passengers knowing that death is probably near. I just hope that the passeng
31 Post contains links Antskip : "At 2:10 GMT, an automated message said the auto-pilot had disengaged and there was a fault in one of the computers flying the plane. From 0211 to 021
32 RayChuang : In sum total, it comes down to this after we recover the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder--did both black boxes suddenly stopped record
33 JJ8080 : Although it's being said that the oil/jet fueal found on the ocean could indicate that there was NO fire/explosion.... This information stand pretty
34 Post contains links Drr49 : A previous post asked for a chart showing the FIRs for the area in question. This should fill the bill: http://www.planningchart.de/South-Atlantic.gif
35 Bravo1six : Both the FDR and CVR would (or could) continue to operate after a blast if the blast only disabled the aircraft, and what the boxes recorded in that
36 LipeGIG : I also saw that. Amazing how a strong storm appears so suddenly.
37 YYZA330 : Maybe it's time the re-design the CVR and FDR. Maybe digital? I'm sure there are many ways to make them modern. Just a thought. Also, if the plane los
38 2175301 : Adding radioactive isotopes will not help locating of these devices under water. Water is a great radiation shield. This is why nuclear plant spent f
39 Post contains links Dahawaiian : This recent incident gives you some idea of just how quickly weather can change. http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123152448
40 ULMFlyer : Pihero, how was the captain's report of turbulence relayed and to whom? Was it via Satcom, ACARS, HF? I haven't read anything else about it other than
41 KingFriday013 : Thank you for that thoughtful, wonderful image. Did you make it yourself? -J.
42 Post contains links VirginFlyer : It definitely is possible to take manual control - have a look at http://www.airbusdriver.net/airbus_fltlaws.htm which give an explanation of the var
43 Etops1 : I personally cannot believe that lightning brought down this plane while in cruise flight .Something else happened here. we may never know what but th
44 Post contains links AVLNative : Do we know the substance of the global alert mentioned here? http://www.etravelblackboard.com/showarticle.asp?nav=2&id=93043 Air France crash investig
45 Post contains links NAV20 : I take it you mean the Qantas emergency last October, RayChuang? In fact there have apparently been two more similar incidents - one was another Qant
46 Famfflores : A think that will be the focus of the investigation. What happened with the Qantas flight apparently was a conflict of information/processing in the
47 Post contains links QFMel : Creedy's report in Wednesday's Oz can be found here: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...tory/0,25197,25579625-2702,00.html "After the Air France
48 Jarrod1024 : Could someone please give me a quick summary of any new information since thread 6, i don't really feel like reading every post.
49 Ruscoe : Quoting Famfflores (Reply 201): gives more info on the first Qantas ADIRU ocurrance. Very good reading Excellent thankyou. Thing that surprised me was
50 JFernandez : " target=_blank>http://www.pbs.org/newshour/. In light of no other information, this really spooks me that it's an ADIRU issue which brought this pla
51 Ikramerica : At least not at FL300+ in the 21st century. If it was the storm that lead to the crash, it could be that the storm caused a problem that revealed a d
52 LVZXV : Quite a few threads ago I remember asking (and not being answered) what are the structural "g" limits of an A330-200? Or, failing that, the average li
53 ABpositive : From Thread 2: Same as any other commercial airliner: Up, 3G Fwd, 9G Down, 6G Lateral, 1.5G
54 JBirdAV8r : That's impossible to determine based on satellite imagery alone. You can pretty much surmise they went through some bumps, but you cannot say definit
55 LVZXV : Thanks. I assume the vertical limits would translate as +6/-3G, correct?
56 Famfflores : the image of the storm being formed so fast (up and expanding) is very impressive indeed. If turbulence alone was the cause, which I don´t believe,
57 F9Fan : Forgive me if this point has been made perviously, but this sounds similar to the AA A330 crash near JFK back in 2001. IIRC, the NTSB determined that
58 Antskip : As the usual, it takes a series of contributing problems to bring down a plane at altitude, but if there was, say a sudden auto-generated disfunction
59 LipeGIG : That's true. Seems that by the time of departure at GIG the weather was not so bad. My only question is that if Atlantic Traffic control does not hav
60 JJ8080 : Agreed. And also, doesn't the A330 have any radar that can detect weather?? I don't have many info on JJ's case some days ago, but, the incident on t
61 HNL-Jack : I'm sure that's one of the senario's being looked at. Unfortunatly, we may never know.
62 LipeGIG : Yes, but i read on the news that the radar is focused more in detect water formation, not ice. Don't know if this is correct.
63 Post contains links Antskip : Another report of the last 4 minutes of communication has the following: 11:00 p.m. local time 2014 The pilot sends a manual signal saying the jet was
64 FlyASAGuy2005 : Two different cases IMO. First off, 547 was an A300 not A330 unless that was a typo. Two very different a/c without FBW technology found on the A330.
65 Allegro : Unless there is more to come ... why give away that you found a way to place bombs on a plane. Maybe this was a test ...
66 AVLNative : Aren't these the last four minutes? Looks like 11:10pm - 11:14pm were the crucial last minutes between autopilot disengaged and catastrophe.
67 Klwright69 : Can someone give the ADIRU explanation in plain English please?
68 MSPNWA : I fear the same. I just hate mysteries in which people perish.
69 Post contains links SXDFC : Here is an article about the Captain of the ill-fated Air France A330: http://www.wtop.com/?nid=105&sid=1688553[Edited 2009-06-03 21:18:34]
70 Antskip : Yes, 4 MINUTES. My typo. Sorry. I will try and correct post. Done. thank you. My previous post (50) also had that error, and ought to be corrected, b
71 JJ8080 : Agreed. Do anyone know about what speed/altitute would the plane begin to break apart if in a nose down dive?? I mean, like the maximum frame speed.
72 BMI727 : Interesting, but I was thinking more along the lines of a cargo hold fire versus a TWA 800 type of explosion. I should think that a fire could to mor
73 Jawed : might want to rename this thread, since the flight is no longer "missing"...
74 NAV20 : Not your fault, Antskip, but that quote keeps coming up. As far as I can tell from the various press mentions, the final message was ABOUT cabin pres
75 JJ8080 : Then I agree. I small explosion, but yet capable of making some hole on the fuselage would have cause extreme decompression and maybe immediately str
76 Wjcandee : Huh. I read where the head of the Brazil Air Force said that the wreckage dispersion -- into multiple debris fields -- means the thing broke up at a
77 Ikramerica : In most accidents, there are numerous calls of responsibility right after. They are generally lies, people looking for attention. Unless evidence sho
78 KSYR : Regarding the terrorism angle, Yahoo news reported earlier that this exact same flight had been subjected to a bomb threat on May 27. Somewhat fishy t
79 Klwright69 : I do not think your fears will be realized. Unlike in other cases, I do not think any expense will be spared in finding the black boxes, which will b
80 LVZXV : Honestly, I think terrorism would be far more likely had AF447 been cruising through clear skies. It just seems like too much of a coincidence that th
81 Post contains images NAV20 : As an airman he wouldn't be all that knowledgeable about the ocean, then?   It was something over 24 hours before the wreckage was sighted. There ar
82 BMI727 : The fact that the cascading failures and corresponding messages occurred over several minutes seems more consistant, to me at least, with a fire rath
83 Jarrod1024 : I read that it was a different Air France flight (flight 415) on cnn.com.
84 Beefstew25 : Does anyone have F-GZCP's flights for the last month? I believe my in-laws may have recently flown on it.
85 YVRLTN : Im sure the cargo manifest is being scrutinized very carefully and all shippers are being questioned about undeclared DG. One of the endless list of
86 Smcmac32msn : Everybody screaming that somebody such as Osama Bin Laden or the Libyans needs to scream responsibility for it to be terrorism... Why? Nobody remembe
87 Smcmac32msn : I'm leaning towards what NAV20 says about this topic.
88 AAden : I thought the last meesage was about verticle cabin speed? What is to show that the plane was losing significant altitude at the time of the first me
89 Decoder : Bear in mind that two aircraft travelling at 0.8 mach with 10 minutes in between will be over 140km apart.
90 Post contains links AirlineCritic : Here's an updated status of the various speculations regarding the cause of this accident, trying to see how various theories match to what we know to
91 Post contains links NAV20 : This should help, Klwright69:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Data_Inertial_Reference_Unit The important thing about ADIRUs is that they work not f
92 Virgin744 : That article mentions a couple of interesting points; Marc Dubois, 58, had been flying jets for Air France for more than 20 years after joining the a
93 ManuCH : I couldn't find this information by browsing through these 9 threads (and I've read most of the posts): why are many news articles talking about "2 co
94 Zeke : Nav, Turning one off in flight does not put you into alternate law, don't know where you got that from, you still have autopilots available, and you
95 Bond007 : So, the only 'evidence' we have, is bad weather .... that's it ... period! Something that most experts agree would not normally cause an aircraft to
96 F9Animal : I am pretty sure that the aircraft broke apart. I have flown on an aircraft that experienced the same weather concerns. However, I do remember the ai
97 ZKNBS : Thank you for the kind words. Yes I created it in Photoshop this afternoon.
98 Post contains links NEMA : An interesting and relatively new article, for which i apologize if ive missed it above, states that its likely the aircraft broke apart above the oce
99 Mir : The cabin is slowly depressurized during descent, so that the cabin descends at a comfortable rate from the 8,000 feet or so at cruise to the appropr
100 Smcmac32msn : I think what NAV is trying to say is that the damage has already been done, the plane is in a high rate of decent and the cabin pressure was never co
101 XT6Wagon : Very wrong. Problems with a design can wait decades to surface. The 737 fatigue issue that made one a convertable wasn't found till it had over 80,00
102 NAV20 : Thanks for all the hard work on the summary, AirlineCritic. Particularly agree that, like most accidents, this is likely to have resulted from a 'casc
103 Jetfuel : Yes. Most of the A330's flying are still quite new - ie. under 10 years average age
104 Tugger : Well the question then is what is common between the two systems (Honeywell and Litton) and what is feeding the systems their information. Interestin
105 CB97 : I was also wondering about the DG factor. Even something like an electric scooter or wheelchair can be dangerous if it's not properly secured, or man
106 TommyBP251b : I don't think so. The French will be very determined in order to find out the real cause. I also don't believe it. More likely! Me too! Maybe. I woul
107 Aerosol : I think this whole thing is kind of strange concerning the information and the conclusions that are drawn officially: - First lightning strike - Now i
108 NAV20 : Please read the AD, Zeke. In fact, I'd be surprised if you haven't, given that it applies to some A340s too..... As I read it it does first of all re
109 JetMech : I'm not sure an ADIRU would ever "work off the instruments" as such. The job of the Air Data (AD) part of the ADIRU is to measure the information com
110 Mir : The scenario still doesn't make sense. If the damage had already been done, then the pressurized section would have already been breached, and the ca
111 BMI727 : Excellent post. Many mid-duration flights (such as trans-Atlantic) are too long for the standard 2 man crew and do not warrant 4 pilots. These flight
112 Bond007 : He said "work NOT from the traditional instruments " Jimbo
113 Mir : It's two separate procedures. One for a single failure, which does not trigger Alternate Law, and one for a dual failure, which does. There is nothin
114 NAV20 : Oh heck, Jetmech - that is correct, and precisely why I included the word 'not' in my post....
115 JetMech : Going by that procedure, I'd say that having two ADIRU's inop precludes automatic fuel transfer to and from the trim tank. IIRC, on the A330 / A340,
116 JetMech : This is precisely why I wrote my reply. Ambient conditions would be picked up by a sensor (total tubes, static ports etc.) which sends this raw data
117 Post contains links FCA767 : http://www.acarsd.org/acars_search.html
118 Sebolino : ??? How do you know there was a fire ?
119 NAV20 : Chhers Jetmech, no sweat... Oh dear....... The point to remember is that the problem has NOT been solved. The AD is an emergency (and hopefully tempor
120 PlanesNTrains : I think that his wording shows that he is hypothesizing. He doesn't claim to "know" anything. -Dave
121 Acabgd : Ugh...? Could you please enlighten me when was a modern airliner broken up in the air by weather and brought down?
122 ADent : It does not look like it, but the data has not been released to know one way or another. Another pilot for another airline has received a call after
123 Sebolino : Well, my English is probably not good enough, but without the words "could" or "maybe", but "was" and "it caused" in place, it's difficult to guess t
124 ADent : What does it take to get into alternate law? How often does this happen (once a year, once a career)?
125 UALWN : The problem with Northrop's ADIRUs has not been understood. However, AF447 had Honeywell's ADIRUs, which are different, both hardware-wise and softwa
126 Astuteman : But you're an expert where an Air Force Operative trained and probably experienced in SAR isn't Correct me if I'm wrong. The "throwing about happened
127 Keta : I believe the lightning strike has not been ruled out? Could a lightning have started a fire, which triggered the forthcoming events? Just asking, don
128 Babybus : Wouldn't it be a good idea for these black boxes to be fitted with some kind of floatation device? Did no one ever think about the consequences of los
129 Mir : You can certainly have an AD as a result of a root cause having been found for a problem. What else would you put out? SBs aren't going to cut it. Th
130 Sebolino : An ejectable and floatable device has been imagined I heard, but never developped.
131 Mir : I'm sure people did. Designing a floating black box is not all that hard. But finding a feasible way of ejecting it from the aircraft is - that's whe
132 Borism : Even if there was a fire it must have been pretty localized, as there is quite a spill of fuel in the Ocean.
133 Borism : They showed one on CNN yesterday, which seemed to me quite inappropriate product placement. Apparently it is used by military. IMHO not of big use fo
134 NAV20 : Please be a bit constructive for once, Astuteman. Instead of attacking my deductions/theories, perhaps you could put forward some of your own? For ex
135 AAden : [quote=AVLNative,reply=20]The pilot sent a manual signal at 11 p.m. local time saying he was flying through an area of "CBs" - black, electrically cha
136 Post contains links JetMech : No malice intended on my part either NAV20 . I'd say the BOAC 707 accident in the lee of Mount Fuji may qualify. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOAC_Fl
137 Post contains links VirginFlyer : I'm not certain if you'd consider these modern airliners, but they certainly aren't ancient: BOAC 707, Mt Fuji, Japan: http://aviation-safety.net/dat
138 Post contains images David L : No. I'm saying we know there was definitely bad weather but we do not know there was definitely a bomb. I was merely questioning the assertion that a
139 IDISA : I agree, I strongly believe that no pilot would fly into such a huge thunderstorm, especially when you know what you have in fornt of you. Weather ra
140 Post contains links NAV20 : Just to settle at least one of the points I keep getting challenged on, the aeroplane was definitely in 'Alternate Law' from the moment the trouble b
141 777DAD : First off I'd like to express my heartfelt sympathy to everyone involved. I would like to ask however if there has ever been another incident involvin
142 TristarSteve : Maybe I am being thick, but how can an ACARS message relate total electrical failure? The ACARS is powered by electrics! I have seen many posts with
143 Acabgd : " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOAC_Fl...t_911 Oh, come on!! I specifically asked about a modern airliner, not one of the first ones in
144 RayChuang : The reason why we have to consider whether a blast destroyed the plane was in the case of Pam Am 103, when the explosion occurred the force of the bl
145 AirNZ : If this is your explanation could you then explain what 'traditional' instruments work from?? From the day I started flying they've worked in exactly
146 Ajd1992 : Me too. This may well be the TWA800 of the 00's. Not in cause, just in the fact we may never know how this plane just vanished. I'll believe otherwis
147 Acabgd : " target=_blank>http://aviation-safety.net/database/...006-0 Thanks for the list, however I really wouldn't compare the above types with an A330 in b
148 JetMech : How "modern" is modern enough for you? I suppose you mean the very latest generation of commercial aircraft, of which we could only really include th
149 NAV20 : A poster asked for an explanation of ADIRUs in plain English. It's as simple as that. The ASI works on airflow from ahead. The altimeter works on bar
150 Milan320 : Thanks for the summary. What is curious for me is what contributed to the damage to the control surfaces (as reported by one of the ACARS transmissio
151 JFernandez : Hmmm, if the ADIRUs mostly measure air pressure, and you fly through an extreme thunderstorm with highly oscillating air pressure measurements, how d
152 LHRjc : As far as I can see they haven't been released yet, and obviously as the messages were transmitted via SATCOM in the middle of nowhere unfortuntately
153 Post contains links JetMech : I think only the B2 bomber has an attitude reference system based on differential pressures. Commercial types have inertial navigation or reference s
154 Spacecadet : TWA800 is not a mystery, and has not been a mystery since the day the accident report was released, and probably significantly before that. If you do
155 LTBEWR : Although it would be better to use info from the FDR and CVR, is is possible with the use of information we do know as to the weather, from the ARCAS
156 Keta : GlobeEx, could you explain again the theory of the ADIRU failing? I can't seem to find it in so many threads... Keta[Edited 2009-06-04 04:42:27]
157 Astuteman : I consider the implication that I am not usually constructive to be offensive in the extreme I have absolutely no intentions whatsoever to adding to
158 Post contains links Comeandgo : answer here, they have different systems by different manufacturers. That's why the investigation is now looking into frozen exterior air speed instr
159 AVLNative : Although from different manufacturers, would the different ADIRUs run the same software. i.e. a software defect would manifest itself regardless of w
160 Post contains links BrusselsSouth : Hi all, I apologize if it has been mentioned, but I can't seem to find it in this thread. An Air Comet captain, operating flight 974 LIM-MAD on that n
161 NA : Yes, it does. While currents surely dispersed the debris, a gap between the debris of more than 100 kms is unlikely in just two days. Like the cargo
162 757GB : I understand, however if you were able to beat all present security measures and smuggle a bomb on board, you're undoubtedly going to generate more c
163 Osiris30 : Apart for the rather dismissive and arrogant tone of your post, I'm curious as to just how different you think a 777/340/330/767/etc. are from a 707?
164 MadameConcorde : As posted on PPRuNe Reported today in The Age Newspaper, Melbourne: Pilot saw 'white light' where Air France flight lost June 4, 2009 - 8:22PM The cap
165 Burkhard : That was almost 2000 km away. Must have been something else ( if we don't come with mini black holes eating everthing in their way, UFOs, ...) . A que
166 Vasu : If that's the case (white light seen by Air Comet pilot), then why did this not come out earlier? Do they keep that sort of thing confidential?
167 JBirdAV8r : I love how you're so quick to just say I'm "very wrong" instead of taking the time to read the context of my post. Does it make you feel better to do
168 NA : Strange this report takes 3 days to come up... Wouldnt he have called Air France the very hour he heard about the crash?
169 MadameConcorde : UFO sightings? I suppose cockpit crew even charter fligths don't go around telling stories...
170 Post contains links OA260 : Last 14 minutes of Air France flight were recorded Doomed Air France Flight 447's last terrifying few minutes in the air have already been pieced toge
171 Trystero : Are there flights between Lima and Lisbon? Maybe Lima - Madrid?
172 Honeythief : The headline on the Eircom site is very misleading and the report itself contains nothing that we didn't know already. Very poor journalism.
173 LH526 : If the Pilot did not approach press directly (wich would be a breach of contract with many top-nothc companies) .. it would go as follow: Air Comet P
174 Post contains links NAV20 : As far as I know, AVLNative, same principles, different software/design. Confess honestly to be astonished, though, that our own ATSB (Australian Tra
175 LH526 : As I said, usualy this involves crosscheck with several departmens within your company before making such a sensitive statement. IF he acted on it's
176 Pihero : You should. All these aircraft have been built according to the exact same specifications in terms of flight envelope. Typical uneducated statement.
177 UALWN : Except that: 1) QF's ADIRUs are built by Northrop while AF's are built by Honeywell. They are different in hardware, in software and in logic. 2) No
178 Famfflores : Is it possible that something outside (like lightining, ice, etc) managed to damage an ADIRU sensor thus causing the respective ADIRU to send incorre
179 Acelanzarote : Who's to say he did not? Although I doudt the pilot would speak to AFR direct, I am sure there is a channel of communiation for these types of messag
180 Post contains links Famfflores : this link has been mentioned in the past. worth reading, particular related to the Qantas A330 case. http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~johnson/pa...SC09/ADIR
181 NAV20 : I'll learn one day not to give a poster some simple information (primarily Wiki) in case I get about 30 vituperative responses from people who hadn't
182 Ajd1992 : I didn't mean that I don't believe the report, that's irrelevant to this topic. (As a matter of point, I'm not too sure I do believe it, but lets lea
183 United787 : Is there any more information on the aircraft recovery efforts? Everything being discussed above is in regards to speculation about the cause. Any pho
184 Post contains links BOACVC10 : Could there have been a mid-air collision of some kind of 1-in-a-very large number scenario instead of a structural (wing) failure scenario ? The stru
185 Post contains links CF105Arrow : Apparently the Air France jet that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean on Monday was flying too slowly ahead of the disaster. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/r
186 LipeGIG : A helicopter has just departed Noronha to help on the search. During the early morning, Brazilian Air Force found 3 more areas with wreckage LIM-MAD S
187 Acabgd : If you feel the "Oh, come on" to be arrogant then you really have a problem. Exactly, therefore again the question I already asked: I understand they
188 Cc2314 : re burkhard "If any accident has a sense, then this is we learn from it. It is time to attack the questions of better information of the cockpit crew
189 Pihero : The quicker, the better, Nav ! You should know me better than that. First, no, I have no opinion whatsoever as we have not a single fact to base a te
190 Post contains links YULWinterSkies : AF415 is the EZE-CDG flight. http://www.libhomeradar.org/databasequery/ (search by registration, you'll see she's been flying to quite a few places l
191 Bond007 : Why? I still don't see why flying through conditions that almost never cause serious problems, makes another cause that does cause serious problems l
192 Famfflores : Meybe he did, and that´s why AF thought about a potential lighting strike.[Edited 2009-06-04 06:29:29]
193 YWG : I'm assuming they mean, the turbulent air penetration speed?? It's a little early to tell if they were going to fast, as I'm sure the FDR has yet to
194 Post contains links BrusselsSouth : Airbus A321-211 F-GTAM MSN 1859 DATE: 17.08.2006 LOCAL TIME: - LOCATION: Paris-CDG Intl AP (LFPG) COUNTRY: France AIRLINE1: Air France TYPE: Airbus A
195 Post contains links JJ8080 : BEA just stated that the A330 was flying with incorrect speed. Didn't detailed if higher or lower than shoud be. More info here: http://www1.folha.uol
196 Post contains links MarSciGuy : OK, a couple things I can hopefully clarify from the previous thread (8) that I saw was closed after I tried to quote peoples' questions about oceanic
197 GRIVely : My office is just at the south end of Runway 1R at Dulles International Airport. Coming into work in my building this morning there was some confusion
198 Ty134A : As far as I understand, meteroids when entering the atmosphere may cause such a phenomenon (bright light). So if all the other aircraft in the area r
199 NA : Haha. Well, even if the cause cant be resolved, Airbus wont be linked with unreliable technology, as the severe weather alone serves as a highly like
200 Cosmofly : So it is pilot error again
201 PanAm1971 : I get the feeling that the ADIRU is at the center of this incident... and that weather may (or may not) have been a contributing factor.
202 Bwphoto : " target=_blank>http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0...plane I saw this story as well - anyone care to comment? How could the aircraft speed have bee
203 Post contains images NAV20 : First question is, do they mean airspeed or groundspeed? Oh, sorry, I keep getting told that I know nothing about aviation......or oceans...... Cheer
204 Post contains links JJ8080 : Brazilian Authorities just released... Internal parts of the Airbus found on the search areas! http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/vo...-af447/2009/06/0
205 NA : "Der Spiegel" reports that the French authorities have just issued a directive to maintain correct speed in foul weather. The magazine says, such dir
206 Acabgd : Sadly, this would be true in an ideal world. I get the "unsafe Airbus" all the time from friends and family, where they prefer anything else then thi
207 Mayor : This is what caused the crash of DL 191 in DFW. While the Tristar was on approach, they were told to reduce speed because of traffic in front of them
208 PanAm1971 : I have a dumb question. Is it possible that a flash freeze encountered in a thunderstorm could have briefly clogged the pitot? If so, could this have
209 NA : A Brazilian politican said that all bodies or body parts found will be taken to land. But its in the sea off the regional state of Pernambuco. "You kn
210 Pihero : A calculation of these two geographic points gives a distance of 1396 Nm, i.e some 2500 km . Which makes this sighting a view of the accident impossi
211 NAV20 : Of COURSE it could. They can only have the haziest idea of the groundspeed, and (pending possible recovery of the FDR) no idea at ALL of the airspeed
212 PanAm1971 : I really didn't want to "go there" but the tone of some of the French officials regarding recovering the boxes has been... somewhat less than confide
213 LHRjc : How do we know the ACARS message didn't include airspeed?
214 Pihero : ??????????????? What has the ground speed to do with this accident? In terms of flying the airplane ? And what makes you think they had no idea on th
215 Sebolino : Great ! You really found the good place for another French bashing discussion. Congrats.
216 PanAm1971 : It's possible the aircraft could have stalled after an abrupt shift or change in windspeed and direction. The actual forward speed of the aircraft (o
217 PanAm1971 : No. Not meant that way. Just a comment of the tone of the comments of the officials involved.
218 Happylandings : Is there any report or source other than a forum post for the collision on ground with an A321 that F-GCZP was supposedly involved?
219 Trystero : Shouldn't this be enough reason for turn around, specially in that particular area and at night? Can a captain go on cruising under these circumstanc
220 Pihero : Give it a rest. The aerodynamic properties of a wing only deal with the velocity/Mach number and the qualities (density and temperature) of the airst
221 PanAm1971 : You would think so right?
222 NAV20 : Because they only have information on what groundspeed the aeroplane was making about half an hour before, and no information at ALL on what the wind
223 KELPkid : Pitot tubes are heated, and have been for years...especially on jetliners
224 David L : A lot of it has been mistranslated/misrepresented/misunderstood. It's pretty obvious to anyone who stops to think about it that they never said they
225 TUNisia : If you read the Qantas report on the A330 dive incident you'll also find that the aircraft's speed slowed (i think) prior to the incident with the di
226 PanAm1971 : Which can change abruptly... especially in the storm scenario we are talking about. In that case-after the sudden change from headwind to tailwind-it
227 WILCO737 : The groundspeed is irrelevant when it comes to stall speed. You can stall at a groundspeed of 1000mph as the flow over your wings are the important t
228 757GB : " target=_blank>http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/...ndard I know that all these elements have been discussed here, however I do think the article
229 PanAm1971 : Good post. I'll buy that. It just concerns me when investigators have barely begun an investigation and start using words like "might never". I'm thi
230 Post contains images NAV20 : For once, Pihero, pleased to say that we're in total agreement. Sincerely hope the trend continues. [Edited 2009-06-04 07:52:06]
231 Seanc0x0 : Interestingly, the first thought I had when seeing the Air Comet captain's report was that it sounds like he saw a fireball. I've seen several, and t
232 David L : It's still the airspeed you're dealing with, not ground speed. Overstressing the airframe is caused by excessive airspeed so you need to reduce your
233 PanAm1971 : Thanks WILCO737.
234 PanAm1971 : Question; if you have constantly changing wind speed and direction (like in a violent storm) how would measure proper airspeed adjustments to make? F
235 Happylandings : AFAIK you would set your engines to a certain N1 value and then try to maintain correct pitch attitude. The turbulence N1 is printed somewhere in the
236 WILCO737 : There is a turbulence penetrating speed and a powersetting for it. You disengage the A/T and set that N1 and then let the speed drop and rise as it l
237 Cosmofly : How would a computer respond? We know the A/P was disengaged. Would it be too late?
238 Dragon6172 : Suppose ( ya it's going to be one of those posts) the plane suddenly pitches down like the Qantas 330, and the pilots pull the power back to keep fro
239 UALWN : May I ask based on what?
240 777DAD : I agree,however I personally didn't here anything about it,and I'm on here almost daily. At any rate thanks for the answers. Regards, Jeff
241 WILCO737 : I never flew Airbus, so I don't know 100% how the Airbus reacts. The time the engines response is very quick if you have a pretty high powersetting.
242 NAV20 : Short answer is, it just wouldn't, Panam1971. If you had the throttle set to hold say roughly 120 knots (for mere mortals like me) or the auto-thrott
243 Mayor : Do you think that this is what happened to DL 191 in DFW (which I mentioned above)?
244 Gniou : I have a question on the black boxes (sorry if it was answered before, if it's the case I totally mised it): We heard that French officials are not ov
245 Wjcandee : A lot of the official commentary is being misinterpreted by the media, perhaps in part also this time because of differences in language. For example,
246 Post contains links Moderators : This thread has reached 250 posts. Please continue with part 10 here: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4435136/ Thanks
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