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Air France - Statistically Unsafe?  
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 53
Posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23542 times:

With the recent Air France accident, how has this affected their rankings in the list of safest airlines to fly with ?.

They seemed to have had an awful lot of accidents/incidents in the last 30+ years compared to other carriers (all hull losses) :-

12/06/1975 Boeing 747 Air France N28888 (MSN 20542)
Mumbai, India 0 fatalities.

17/03/1982 Airbus A300 Air France F-BVGK (MSN 70)
Sana, Yemen 0 fatalities.

02/12/1985 Boeing 747 Air France F-GCBC (MSN 22427)
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 0 fatalities.

26/06/1988 Airbus A320 Air France F-GFKC (MSN 9)
Habsheim, France 3 fatalities.

20/01/1994 Airbus A340 Air France F-GNIA (MSN 10)
Paris CDG, France 0 fatalities.

26/12/1994 Airbus A300 Air France F-GBEC (MSN 104)
Marseille, France 7 fatalities.

04/03/1999 Boeing 737 Air France F-GBYA (MSN 23000)
Biarritz, France 0 fatalities.

05/03/1999 Boeing 747 Air France F-GPAN (MSN 21515)
Chennai Airport, India 0 fatalities.

25/07/2000 Concorde Air France F-BTSC (MSN 203)
Gonesse, France 109 fatalities.

02/08/2005 Airbus A340 Air France F-GLZQ (MSN 289)
Toronto, Canada 0 fatalities.

In the same time BA have had 1 accident/incident, Iberia - 3, KLM - 2 and Lufthansa 2.
(I have not used the US in comparison, as the number of flights in the US and of US airlines far outweighs those of Europe so of course they are going to have more accidents than anyone else, so I just used similar sized European airlines for comparison.)
Now not all accidents/incidents involved fatalities but all have involved hull losses.

So statistically this would still mean that you are more likely to be involved in an accident/incident if flying with AF than with almost any other airline, even if that doesn't necessarily mean you will die, you could still well be seriously injured.

The only other airline with that many hull losses on this list :-

http://www.airfleets.net/crash/stat_airline.htm

is Indian Airlines, and most of their accidents were up to the mid 90's when aviation in India was still quite primative.

If we look at the following list :-

http://www.airfleets.net/crash/stat_country.htm

There have been 14 accidents in France, of which only 3 were carriers from other countries, the rest were all French airlines.

Is this down to a lack of a safety culture with-in French airlines as has been the case in other parts of the world where accidents are also quite common or have the French just been unlucky ?. I know that the French don't like to speak English on the radio for example, which then leads to loss of situational awareness for other pilots out there, and could and has lead to accidents before, so what else is behind their poor track record with aviation accidents ?.

(This is not intended as a French bashing bitch fest, so please refrain from any of that and lets have a civillised discussion on the topic).

 frown 


"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
101 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1137 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23423 times:

Oh, please! AF is not any less safe and any other major European. Statistics are often influenced by airline size, number of frequencies, etc. I also think it is a matter of luck too...like being in the wrong place at the wrong time; fate, destiny. Or eventhough it is too early to speculate, how could AF be at fault for AF447 tragedy if the weather was a factor???

User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4489 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23305 times:

Unfortunately it's so hard to attach meaning to most all statistics. There are just too many variables.

As I see it, here are some factors which contribute to the somewhat high number of hull losses Air France has experienced:

Several of the hull losses mentioned were the result of runway overruns (namely the A340 and one of the 747s). Many overruns result in repairable damage and rarely do they get much mention, but these caused the writeoff of the hull (and in the A340's case, it was subsequently destroyed by fire). One of the A340s was lost in maintenance; that happens from time to time--I can think of two American carriers that's happened to fairly recently. One of the 747s was, I think, a writeoff because of a tire failure on takeoff and subsequent fire that was poorly managed by the ARFF responding. One was a hijacking--I don't hold Air France responsible for this any more than I hold United and American responsible for the September 11 attacks.

I think these factors skew the data a little bit.

Bottom line--I'd have no trouble boarding an Air France flight today, and I wouldn't have a problem putting my family on board them either. They're a great airline with personnel just as highly trained as the rest of the world's best, safest carriers.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23233 times:



Quoting Leezyjet (Thread starter):
In the same time BA have had 1 accident/incident, Iberia - 3, KLM - 2 and Lufthansa 2.
(I have not used the US in comparison, as the number of flights in the US and of US airlines far outweighs those of Europe so of course they are going to have more accidents than anyone else, so I just used similar sized European airlines for comparison.)

BA, IB and KL are not a similar size to AF, only LH is, by any measure be it pax, RPK's etc etc, so that will at least count for some of the extra.

Trying to suggest that such a great airline is lacking in safety culture, is extremely distasteful and insulting to the professionals of a great airline who are struggling to come to terms with a tragic accident.

I understand we have free speech, and anyone is entitled to ask the question, but what you are suggesting is simply untrue.

I think on closer inspection, you will also note that BA has indeed had more than one "incident" during this period.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4882 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23194 times:

I don't think, even with the hull losses mentioned, that AF is unsafe. Beyond that stats are a funny thing, what does "unsafe" really mean? Given the mantra that "any landing you can walk away from is a good one" there have been very few casualties considering the number of frames written off, 112 fatalities. Considering 248 people died in the KL collision in Tenerife does that statisticallly not make KL more unsafe?

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23172 times:



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 2):
Bottom line--I'd have no trouble boarding an Air France flight today

I shall be doing so again in a few weeks... with no qualms. Even if you accept that they've had a few more incidents (and it is only a few more), it's still very, very few compared to the number of flghts and miles flown.


User currently offlineAvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23113 times:

As Homer Simpson once said:
Pfft...You can use facts to prove anything that's even REMOTELY true!
That said that is a very low number of casualties given the amount of crushed metal. (No disrespect to those who perished.) Like JBirdAV8r said most of these writeoffs seem to be a result of dumb luck rather than any sort of systemic problem.



Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
User currently offlineCaribillo From Spain, joined Jul 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23107 times:



Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 3):
Trying to suggest that such a great airline is lacking in safety culture, is extremely distasteful and insulting to the professionals of a great airline

I think that were are now in front a real case of "power branding" or AF good marketing abilities.

If the statistics were the other way round, that means, AZ 9 loses, IB 8 loses, TAP 7 loses and AF 2 loses, the sentece would be the same: AF is a pretty safe airline and the other ones, as we all know, are crap.

Ahhhh, some people do everything right, even by mistake......  Wink



Red, orange and yellow...with a big crown!
User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23104 times:



Quoting Leezyjet (Thread starter):
They seemed to have had an awful lot of accidents/incidents in the last 30+ years compared to other carriers (all hull losses) :-

I think it would be good to qualify the various hull losses you have listed. If all involve AF planes, not all were caused by AF (A340 burned down at maintenance due to overheating pump, A300 deemed to expensive to repair in remote place after engine un-contained surge, A300 subject to terrorists attack,...).


User currently offlineKiramakora From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22952 times:

Interesting thought and statistics. Here is a compiled result and it seems Air France is near the bottom in Europe:

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/rates.htm

The database does not account for the recent crash or TK at AMS. I would venture those would further lower their statistics. The statistics account for passenger loss and adjusts for number of flights.

Either way, air travel continues to be the safest means of travelling and I would not think twice about flying.


User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22908 times:



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 2):
Unfortunately it's so hard to attach meaning to most all statistics. There are just too many variables.

As noted by Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4009 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22915 times:

Apparently being a frame at Air France is a terrible deal.


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User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4248 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22857 times:



Quoting Leezyjet (Thread starter):
In the same time BA have had 1 accident/incident, Iberia - 3, KLM - 2 and Lufthansa 2.

One BA crash, I assume you mean the Trident collision over Zagreb in 1975.
You've failed to mention other BA hull losses though, including the 777 incident at LHR last year and a 747 lost at Kuwait. No passenger losses in either of those incidents thankfully (although I believe one passenger was shot dead by the Iraqi forces at Kuwait in 1991).

I'm too lazy to see the other airlines but I imagine there were some hull losses for these airlines too.

However, I do agree that AF has had more than its share of hull losses and fatal accidents over the years for a major world carrier. They also have a lot more flights than some of the other carriers mentioned, as well as to some dangerous parts of the world for operations and safety. Does this mean they are unsafe? I don't think so... Perhaps unfortunate but I wouldn't say unsafe.

And all of this is coming well before any conclusive determination as to the cause of AF447.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22792 times:

To me this is like saying that Mercedes is an unsafe brand of car after the Princess Diana tragedy, what, 12 years ago now. As others have said, any manufacturer (eg, Airbus) or service provider (eg, Air France) of any scale will simply have accidentsas a fact of life. To paraphrase the old saw, it's not the accidents that are problematic, but rather how the parties (in this case Airbus and AF) respond as appropriate.

User currently offlineJabar From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22686 times:

Rather than getting into the debate of what constitutes a safe airline, I note from the statistics above that many of these so-called hull losses involve 0 fatalities, meaning the AF crews did a great job in getting everyone out in one piece.

If anything ever happens to me, I want to be flying with one of those crews (e.g. the Toronto incident).

I would say their safety training is quite good then, and it's a pretty safe airline to fly.


User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22578 times:

The way I look at things, I now think of CO (not including Colgan Air) and US as safer than I did before because their recent accident's show that their employees have their act together and know how to handle an emergency. Yes, those accidents could have been fatal but they weren't because the airlines train their employees SOO well!


AF compared to a deathtrap of an airline such as China Air (admit it, they have had way to many accidents) is not unsafe. Airlines, IMO, are expected to have one large accident every 15 years. I'd still step on an AF A330 today on route to Rio De Janeiro. It was an unfortunate, unexpected accident an AF has proven that they have a strong commitment to safety. Planes crash, its part of the hobby we love and we need to learn to accept that even our favorite airlines are not perfect and move on. SQ has had a major crash, AA has, BA has, QF has had a couple of nearmisses, and now AF has. Its unfortunate but accidents still happen.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5133 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22429 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 4):
I don't think, even with the hull losses mentioned, that AF is unsafe. Beyond that stats are a funny thing, what does "unsafe" really mean? Given the mantra that "any landing you can walk away from is a good one" there have been very few casualties considering the number of frames written off, 112 fatalities. Considering 248 people died in the KL collision in Tenerife does that statisticallly not make KL more unsafe?

Forgot tot add 228 to the AF list?  Sad


User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22337 times:



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 1):
Or eventhough it is too early to speculate, how could AF be at fault for AF447 tragedy if the weather was a factor???

Never said it was.

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 3):
Trying to suggest that such a great airline is lacking in safety culture, is extremely distasteful and insulting to the professionals of a great airline who are struggling to come to terms with a tragic accident.

Again, I never said it was. I reffered to French airlines in general, not Af specifically.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 12):
One BA crash, I assume you mean the Trident collision over Zagreb in 1975.
You've failed to mention other BA hull losses though, including the 777 incident at LHR last year and a 747 lost at Kuwait. No passenger losses in either of those incidents thankfully (although I believe one passenger was shot dead by the Iraqi forces at Kuwait in 1991).

True, my bad. So that takes BA up to 3.



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5156 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22302 times:

To put this (insert perjorative term of your choice) thread to bed, note this:

NASA said a few years ago that fatal airline accidents are so rare that they are in no way a basis upon which to statistically determine that one airline is safer than another.

In other words, the chance is so close to zero that it's basically zero for all airlines (at least ones in the developed world). Trying to handicap the chances of a crash on one particular airline based upon past fatal accident history is accordingly not a sound methodology.

It's basically like the recent discussions regarding lottery tickets...your chances of winning a Mega-Millions jackpot are so low that you are basically as likely to win without having bought a ticket as you are having bought one.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22241 times:



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 17):
Again, I never said it was. I reffered to French airlines in general, not Af specifically.

Um... you might want to take another look at the thread title you chose.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 18):

 checkmark 


User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22114 times:

My decision to not fly Air France would be based around which FF alliance they are or are not a member of and the fact that I don't really fly any routes I am flying more than anything else.

If you told me that I had to fly between two cities on an Air France aircraft today and that was my only airline of choice, I be boarding that plan without concern.

There are many many airlines I would do everything to avoid before Air France showed up on that list.


User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22080 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 19):
Um... you might want to take another look at the thread title you chose.

Totally different I think you will find seeing as you chose to only quote the reply and not the question which was relating specifically to AF safety culture which I did not say.

 Wink



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21907 times:



Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 18):
NASA said a few years ago that fatal airline accidents are so rare that they are in no way a basis upon which to statistically determine that one airline is safer than another.

 checkmark 

Very true!

Just think of this: is an airline that has had 1 major accident in 20 years, twice as safe as an airline that had 2 major accidents?


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21821 times:

let's also not forget that the most recent previously deadly AF crash (the Concorde) was completely out of AF's control

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21752 times:



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 21):
Totally different I think you will find seeing as you chose to only quote the reply and not the question which was relating specifically to AF safety culture which I did not say.

No, I worked it back from there. So, you weren't refering to AF in particular but French airlines in general in the opening post... even though the title says otherwise?

That thread title again: "Air France - Statistically Unsafe?.".


25 Jawed : I just wanted to point out that 97% of all statistics are made up, so it's hard to make conclusions based just on statistics.
26 FURUREFA : Using that criteria, you could say AA is an "unsafe" airline. Since 1975 American has had the following fatal crashes: AA191: 05.25.1979 McDonnell Do
27 Ikramerica : That's what I was going to point out. Seems as if flying with AF means that in the event of a crash, you odds of getting out alive are damn good. 7 w
28 TomFoolery : So there are a bunch of accidents, but it appears that by the numbers, one stands a rather decent chance of surviving an AF accident. What is more im
29 Leezyjet : Once again you seem to be struggling with the concept of reading everything and are missing the points. So I'll explain it for you in plain English.
30 M11Stephen : The 9/11 hijackings could have happened on almost ANY airline... Yes, they did happen to AA but AA wasn't any less safe than say DL, CO, NW, US, etc.
31 FlySSC : Destroyed by fire after tires burst during taxiing. All PAX evacuated safely. Aborted take off at 95 knots after an engine failure (explosion was cau
32 Leezyjet : Yes, thats what the whole point of the thread was about - how the statistics don't take that sort of thing into account but it is taking a while to g
33 Mandala499 : Does that mean there's a way to make Adam Air look statistically safe? *cue to the flying tomatoes! Hehehe* Statistically, while Air France may seem
34 Brianhames : They earned the nickname "Air Chance" somehow...
35 David L : Well, that's 10 minutes of my life I'm never getting back.
36 Leezyjet : Statistically you could !!
37 Emaman : Have you ever heard the phrase "there are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics!" To present the data like that can make AF look worse than th
38 Cba : You can't be serious with this thread... This was a terrorist hijacking... not exactly the airline's fault, could happen to anyone. This one was actua
39 SixtySeven : There was a time long ago that Air France, known as Air Chance at the time required an FAA inspector to be in the cockpit for all flight entering US a
40 Haddock0815 : What came in my mind after reading this is: how can a company like Delta be on rank 1 (with one fatalities) and southwest on rank 2 (with no fatalitie
41 Emaman : I dont think DL have had a fatal since DL191 in 1985 - excellent going for such a large airline with a long history. Southwest also doing well - a lar
42 Sxb : Talking about Air France accidents, a few other happened iff you include the subsidiaries: - Fokker 100 from Regional in Pau in (01/2007): crashed jus
43 Boeing747_600 : especially AF-358 @ YYZ
44 Aviateur : This is a dumb question, frankly. When you start comparing AF to BA, LH, and an virtually any other large airline, it becomes an academic exercise of
45 AF1624 : The only thing those "statistics" show me is that Air France is "statistically" safer than other airlines because those hull losses happened with so f
46 Faro : Like the two statisticians out hunting duck: the first one fired a shot that came within 1 meter left of the duck and the second fired his shot 1 met
47 M11Stephen : Its way to early to speculate on whether or not AF is dangerous or not. We have no idea what the cause of this accident was and it may have been pure
48 L410Turbolet : Why? Suposedly "great airline" or not, I think its perfectly legitimate concern and since accidents of their large aircraft made headlines for the th
49 Leezyjet : Already covered several posts above. Well if that were completely true, the f/crew would have gone around.
50 SixtySeven : Earl Weaver once said there are lies, damn lies..... and Statistics. The factors that come up with these ratings use much more than just accidents. Si
51 Post contains links Viscount724 : Not correct. DL has had at least 2 fatal accidents since 1985. 727-200 crashed on takeoff at DFW in 1988 with 14 fatalities, and MD-88 uncontained en
52 Post contains images AF1624 : You don't know that. It was (and would still be) a judgment call. Nobody knows if going around should have been considered at the time. You don't kno
53 Emaman : you stole my line I already said that further up! Your post is right however! no, but they came veryclose last summer. It is also true to say that ne
54 SXDFC : Is Air France unsafe? well if you look at how many crashes that you list within the last 34 years notice how many of them have ZERO fatalities? You wo
55 Jbernie : A few things to remember: - A lot of luck happens in avoiding crashes & fatalities or at least having low(er) fatality #s in some instances - Regardle
56 Post contains images LongHaul67 : hehe...never heard that story before. I guess we can laugh at it now   Anyways, I fly to GIG on a regular basis, and often with AF. I flew on AF 447
57 Multimark : That's one way to look at it. The other is that AF 358 involved a questionable call on whether it was safe to land during severe weather, and now we
58 YULWinterSkies : I think this has also a lot to do with the frequent strikes back in the 90's; at least this is how i knew about that nickname.
59 Viscount724 : Agreed, it had nothing to do with their safety record but was related to the fact that you never knew whether your AF flight would be cancelled due t
60 TylerDurden : The ones that landed 4000 ft down the runway in blinding rain and couldn't stop the aircraft??? Pilot error was a contributing factor.
61 Post contains links Haddock0815 : No question about this! And I am not talking about the airlines, I am talking about statistics: how can a company with one fatality have abetter rank
62 AF Cabin Crew : FlySSC, 4 of the 7 were terrorists, 3 were passengers killed by the terrorists while on the ground in Algiers, one Algerian, one Taiwanese and one Fr
63 KaiGywer : But if an incident happens with a regional airline (like the recent Colgan Air crash), everyone is quick to say that all regionals are unsafe and onl
64 Dz09 : Don't forget to include the recent emergency landings of their 777's. Something strange is going on with that airline.
65 Gasgh : It was??? Methinks you need to read the accident report! To mention but a few of the "issue"with that flight: Aircraft seriously over max gross take-
66 Gulfstream650 : Well AF has been the first to wipe out a: Concorde A320 A330 A340 Have ordered the A350?
67 Post contains links Tietkej : Just out of interest, and slightly off topic, relating to this link provided earlier on: http://www.planecrashinfo.com/rates.htm How do they assemble
68 FuturePilot16 : Well that's true. I guess it's just luck, It can't be safety .
69 Gasgh : Usually it's "Fatalities per Revenue Passenger Mile". If you fly a lot of flights every day,with enough passengers on board, you could wipe out a 747
70 Gulfstream650 : Luck? But I know what you mean.
71 BrouAviation : Couldn't have said it better. Joined A.net specially for saying I totally agree with this statement. Blowing tyres, malfunctioning engines and hangar
72 Mattteo : Leezyjet, Your thread stinks!! I'm an AF flight attendant and I'm outraged at what you are writing!!! While I don't have any problems questioning an
73 TYCOON : Gasgh, what AF Fokker 100 accident are you referring to? AF doesn't operate Fokker 100s. Furthermore, I think your post is perposterous.
74 Post contains images BrouAviation : That might be respectful indeed, but relax. The world still exists.   We DO know that AF0447 crashed in the Atlantic. And we DO know that will affec
75 Mattteo : Waouh! You are a really good observer!! Indeed, the flight 447 crashed but do you know the reasons??? NO, YOU DON'T!!!!! No comment!!
76 BrouAviation : Wowowowow, relax mate! I surely don't! I never said I did! I only know it crashed, and that it will affect AF's safety record in a negative way. And
77 OzGlobal : Your caveat last line betrays the fact that you can see that that is exactly how these ill informed comments come across. The whole posts smacks of x
78 Post contains links FlyingAY : What is the proportion of French/Non-French flights in the country? If you don't know that, this statistic means nothing. I'm sure we could create ex
79 Manhattanbeach : Why ? The post is not fiction. I thought the whole Concorde episode was a cover up. The shard of metal on the runway (if there was one) didn't help b
80 ODAFZ : We are speaking about different things , hull losses versus fatalities. Nothing suggests ,despite the numerous facts you are harboring in this thread
81 Post contains links Gasgh : The accident involving the Air France Regional (wholly owned subsidiary) occured January 25th 2007. See http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-take-
82 ManuCH : I think my signature says it all.
83 BrouAviation : You can talk like mad, but AF is certainly not the biggest carrier in Europe (one of the biggest yes, but not the biggest) And compared to it's compe
84 Wukka : Take it down a notch, please. Very few people here actually think that you are the judge of what is appropriate or not. Yeah, this whole accident suc
85 Navigator : We have seen two AF crashes in pretty new and modern Airbus widebodies (A430 & A330) in recent years. They have one thing in common which is bad weath
86 FlySSC : Of course, it is well known that AF pilots are recruited among retired Japanese Kamikaze.
87 Kiwiandrew : yes , I accept that on a statistical basis AF has historically had a higher hull loss rate than some* other airlines of comparable size , now , having
88 Post contains images Navigator : I presume your comment is a joke and that you know more about airline operations than this comment, joke or whatever reflects. Stay well  [Edited 20
89 BrightCedars : If you look at airdisaster.com, a pondered rate of events at least fatal to one and related to the operation of the plane will tell you that AF is 3x
90 Pylon101 : No doubt that AF is a great airlines. Still in terms of ICAO stastics its rank will be lowerd due to 2 fatal catastrophes in a decade. Which doesn't b
91 Shamrock604 : Unfortunately Sebolino, the xenophobic undertones in this thread were quite clear from the get go. I suggest any rational person that has been affect
92 AF1624 : FlySSC is one of the most respected members on this board because of his profession and because of the high quality of his (usual) posts. But I think
93 Post contains links Sebolino : Nope. You're talking about events with at least one people killed. If you want to talk about risk of being killed, you go there: http://www.airsafe.c
94 Faro : I would have absolutely no problem flying with a carrier who's experienced even a number of hull losses within the same year IF none are attributable
95 Sebolino : You're right it didn't help. It just made the Concorde crash.
96 FlySSC : I have been working in the airline industry for 23 years. I have more than 12000 hours of flight including 1354 hours of flight on Concorde. I was on
97 Toulouse : Well said. Was at TLS today, and could see the strain and sadness in the eyes of many of AF's ground personnel there, it touched me, especially seein
98 BrouAviation : Get your facts right, it's far from the biggest airline in the world in all point of views: Amount of planes, transported passengers and cargo. Some
99 Thomas2348 : There is no doubt about AF safety. But the accidents are unfortunate.
100 TheSonntag : Saying AF is unsafe would be rediculous. Saying AF has had a very bad decade, however, IS true unfortunately.
101 WILCO737 : I will lock this thread now as the discussion goes in the wrong direction. Thank you. wilco737
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