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AF A332 Missing (F-GZCP) - Part 10  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 514 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 52999 times:
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The other thread has reached 250 posts:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eral_aviation/read.main/4434177/1/

Please continue here now with the dicussion.

Thanks.


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256 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHappylandings From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 53097 times:

I've asked this before, maybe no-one knows... is there any useful source for the supposed ground incident which might have damaged F-GCZP's wing?

[Edited 2009-06-04 08:28:56]

User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 53078 times:

Is there any new devolpments about the aircraft? Any chance of finding those black boxes?


"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineBwphoto From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 53041 times:

How would the investigators know or have derived the airspeed? Is it included in ACARS data?

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 53047 times:

Made this post about ten seconds before the Mod closed the thread. So her it is again - just to keep the discussion gonig.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 234):
Question; if you have constantly changing wind speed and direction (like in a violent storm) how would measure proper airspeed adjustments to make? For example, if your airspeed suddenly goes from 290kts to 220kts and then to 250kts, would you necessarily want to push it back up to 290kts?

Short answer is, it just wouldn't, Panam1971. If you had the throttle set to hold say roughly 120 knots (for mere mortals like me) or the auto-throttle set to hold exactly 340 knots (for professionals like Zeke or Pihero), and a tailwind of 50 knots, your airspeed would be 120 or 340 knots respectively, but your groundspeed would be say 170/390 knots.

If the wind switched to right in your teeth at 50 knots (common enough in the two places I've flown, the UK and Oz) your airspeed would stay at 120/340. But your groundspeed would drop to say 70/290......

Time for Pihero to start talking about differential drag and how I know eff-all about flying and 'drag co-efficients' and things, and that my figures are as much as two per cent out either or both ways. But I hope the principles are clearer now....

[Edited 2009-06-04 08:35:33]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 52956 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
If the wind switched too right in your teeth at 50 knots (common enough in the two places I've flown, the UK and Oz) your airspeed would stay at 120/340. But your groundspeed would drop to say 70/290......

If the windspeed changes 50 knots in a really short time, the airspeed drops as well. The airflow over the wing is not the same anymore. If you fly with a constant speed 120 knots as you said and suddenly a gust from the front is hitting you with 20 knots, then your airspeed increases as well.

wilco737



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52778 times:

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 5):
If you fly with a constant speed 120 knots as you said and suddenly a gust from the front is hitting you with 20 knots, then your airspeed increases as well.

Sure - except that, if it was from the front, I'd LOSE the 20 knots of groundspeed.  In about three minutes in my case, twenty seconds in Pihero's...

[Edited 2009-06-04 08:45:45]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9545 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52713 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
If the wind switched too right in your teeth at 50 knots (common enough in the two places I've flown, the UK and Oz) your airspeed would stay at 120/340. But your groundspeed would drop to say 70/290......

... Eventually, yes, but not immediately. The aircraft has a lot of inertia and would take time to slow down to the original airspeed. The result would be a temporary rise in airspeed of up to 100 kts (depending on how suddenly the wind changed direction) which would drop back to 340 kts as drag slowed the aircraft.


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52617 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):

Sure - except that, if it was from the front, I'd LOSE the 20 knots. Smile For about three minutes in my case, twenty seconds in Pihero's.....

Initially you gain 20 knots in Indicated airspeed, but the groundspeed decreases 20 knots.

wilco737



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMarSciGuy From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52553 times:

Quoting Ginou:

I have a question on the black boxes (sorry if it was answered before, if it's the case I totally mised it):

We heard that French officials are not overly optimistic about the black box recovery. However I know that they send some sort of signals for about 30 days and that they are very resistant. I would think that they are two different issues then:

1/ is it possible to locate the black box?
2/ is it possible to retrieve it?

I am not a specialist at all, but I would tend to think that if they have not be destroyed, 1/ shouldn't be too difficult, no ??? or let me be more specific: what is the range of the signals sent by the black box ? How can it be "captured"???

As to retrieve teh black box, wouldn't that be the toughest part?

If #1 is achieved and they get a good - and I mean quite good - fix on the location then retrieval is no problem even after the pinger stops - Remotely Operated Vehicles (ROVs) or Automonously Operated Vehicles (AUVs) could all operate that deeply easily enough, and do so on a fairly frequent basis. I'm not sure what the deepest a manned (and not Bathyscaphe) submersible can penetrate but I'd assume some specialized ones could reach 4 km depths without a hitch.

[Edited 2009-06-04 08:43:11]


"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1304 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52479 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
If the wind switched to right in your teeth at 50 knots (common enough in the two places I've flown, the UK and Oz) your airspeed would stay at 120/340. But your groundspeed would drop to say 70/290......

I know I'm a bit of a n00b here, but what does 120/340 and 70/290 mean?

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52475 times:
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Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 10):

I know I'm a bit of a n00b here, but what does 120/340 and 70/290 mean?

He just used them as examples. 120 knots (for a smaller airplane) or 340 knots for a bigger plane.
And 70 knots with a 50 knots headwind and 290 with a 50 knots headwind  Smile

wilco737



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52386 times:



Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 10):

I know I'm a bit of a n00b here, but what does 120/340 and 70/290 mean?

He's just differentiating the "little guys" in slower aircraft from the "big guys" in faster planes.

See here:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):

Short answer is, it just wouldn't, Panam1971. If you had the throttle set to hold say roughly 120 knots (for mere mortals like me) or the auto-throttle set to hold exactly 340 knots (for professionals like Zeke or Pihero), and a tailwind of 50 knots, your airspeed would be 120 or 340 knots respectively, but your groundspeed would be say 170/390 knots.




I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5339 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52319 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 8):
Initially you gain 20 knots in Indicated airspeed, but the groundspeed decreases 20 knots

Not if the airspeed INCREASES in the gust, no? Isn't it largely that one offsets the other? If you get a gust strong enough to increase the airspeed, then the increased airspeed compensates for the increased air on the nose, no?

In other words, of course you're right about the aircraft's airspeed increasing in the gust, but what about the effect on groundspeed?

Also, in reality I think that part of any gust is going to be felt as headwind, and part as increased airspeed.


User currently offlinePanAm1971 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52199 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Short answer is, it just wouldn't, Panam1971. If you had the throttle set to hold say roughly 120 knots (for mere mortals like me) or the auto-throttle set to hold exactly 340 knots (for professionals like Zeke or Pihero), and a tailwind of 50 knots, your airspeed would be 120 or 340 knots respectively, but your groundspeed would be say 170/390 knots.

Thanks Nav20! Good stuff.


User currently offlineTrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52224 times:

There are two different things about the boxes. One thing is finding the other is retrieving them. You could locate with precision, but can you taken them out of the debris at a great depth? I mean, one thing is to collect rocks and stuff like that at whatever depth you are, but is it possible to move large parts of the aircraft, foe example? There's another thing ( which make three and not two...) can this boxes resist the pressure at 4 or 5 km deep and for how long? I assume that if they resist impact and fire, pressure would OK too, but don't really know.


Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52127 times:
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Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 13):
Not if the airspeed INCREASES in the gust, no? Isn't it largely that one offsets the other? If you get a gust strong enough to increase the airspeed, then the increased airspeed compensates for the increased air on the nose, no?

When I fly let's say 250 knots with no wind, lets say gives me a ground speed of 300 knots (easiert to calculate). And then the wind suddenly increases to 20 knots and is right onto my nose, then my airspeed indicator would show a 20 knots increase in airspeed, so 270 knots then. The groundspeed will slowly drop from 300 knots to 280 knots as the wind is pushing you back.

The indicated airspeed just basically represents the speed of the airflow over the wing. And if the increase in windspeed happens, then the wing thinks: duh, some nice wind here, let's produce more lift Big grin

wilco737



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 1147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 52099 times:

From the Pro Pilots Rumor Network....
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2645/afa332fgzcpatlantic0906.jpg



Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 51847 times:



Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 10):
I know I'm a bit of a n00b here, but what does 120/340 and 70/290 mean?

No problem, KingFriday013.

"Knots' - nautical miles. 2,000 old-fashioned yards.

So-called because - believe it or not - the way that Nelson and Co. used to measure speed was to throw over a sort of baffle on a rope. The rope (known as the log-line, because originally the baffle was actually a log) had 'knots' in it every 'cables' length' (200 yards). The guy who threw it over had the job of counting the number of 'knots' that went through his fingers while a minute's worth of sand ran through the sandglass that his petty officer was holding.

Then they hauled it back in. The length of cable that had run out told them the speed of the ship.....

If Napoleon's lot had won at Trafalgar, aviation would probably be counting in kilometres, not 'nautical miles.'  Smile



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4296 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 51843 times:

Part 10 with no end in sight, this thread might be the one that unseats Peter Max for the longest topic discussion in a.net history!

Back to seriousness, does anybody have updates on the recovery effort today? I think somebody asked this question in Part 9 but I didn't see a response - has the 23-ft large piece of debris been lifted out of the water yet? Has any more tangible debris been located? (I don't consider an oil slick to be tangible debris). Have the proper recovery vessels started arriving in the general area?

I was looking at this part of the Atlantic Ocean on Google Earth and obviously it is a vast swath of ocean we are talking about here. If the distance from the continental mainland of Brazil to Fernando de Noronha (the island archipelago) is about 300nm and the plane crashed somewhere about another 300nm beyond there, I noticed a feature of rocks just north of that area. St. Peter and Paul rocks are a small uninhabited archipelago of islands and volcanic rocks. They are in Brazilian water - Google says they are 870km from FER and 1,100km from Natal.

My question: how far from St. Peter and Paul rocks are the debris fields? I had never heard of this geographical feature before.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1304 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 51804 times:

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 11):
He just used them as examples. 120 knots (for a smaller airplane) or 340 knots for a bigger plane.
And 70 knots with a 50 knots headwind and 290 with a 50 knots headwind Smile


Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 12):
He's just differentiating the "little guys" in slower aircraft from the "big guys" in faster planes.

Thanks guys! I misunderstood the post, got a little caught up by the slashes. Appreciate the help   

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):

No problem, KingFriday013.

How much of an [adverse] impact do negative changes in speed (both airspeed and groundspeed, I guess) have on an aircraft (a larger one, like the A330, at cruise)? I know changes can't be instantaneous, but say over the period of five seconds. Just wondering if that could have done anything.

-J.

[Edited 2009-06-04 09:04:15]


Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4296 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 51660 times:

Edit to my previous post - somebody has updated the St. Peter and Paul Rocks page on wikipedia to include a short paragraph about AF447 debris being found near the area.

It appears there is a lighthouse on the rocks, presumably manned?



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 1147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 51700 times:

A very convincing article if you ask me....
Didn't know the last 4 mins of the FDR were uplinked via satellite. That's very important.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6430398.ece

The Air France jet that crashed into the Atlantic killing 228 may have stalled after pilots slowed down too much as they encountered turbulence, new information suggests.

Airbus is to send advice on flying in storms to operators of its A330 jets, Le Monde reported today. It would remind crews of the need to maintain adequate thrust from the engines and the correct attitude, or angle of flight, when entering heavy turbulence.

Pilots slow down aircraft when entering stormy zones of the type encountered by Air France Flight 447 early on Monday as it was flying from Rio to Paris.

The fact that the manufacturer of the aircraft is issuing new advice indicates that investigators have evidence that the aircraft slowed down too much, causing a high-altitude aerodynamic stall. This would explain why the aircraft apparently broke up at altitude over the Atlantic.

Jean Serrat, a retired airline pilot, told Agence-France Presse: "If the BEA [accident investigation bureau] is making a recommendation so early, it is because they know very well what happened. If they know what happened, they have a duty to make a recommendation, for safety reasons ... The first thing you do when you fly into turbulence is to reduce speed to counter its effects. If you reduce speed too much you stall."

Although the flight recorders lie about 12,000ft below the ocean surface, the BEA has data on the last four minutes of Flight 447, transmitted automatically by satellite to Air France's base at Paris Charles de Gaulle airport.

A stall, in which the wings lose lift and the aircraft becomes uncontrollable, would be consistent with the sequence of events that have leaked to the media from the Air France data. According to this, the first anomaly was the disconnection of the automatic pilot and computerised flight controls. This means that the pilots were hand-flying the aircraft.

It is not known whether Captain Marc Dubois, 58, was at the controls or just his two co-pilots, who were in their 30s.

A stall at 35,000ft – the altitude at which Flight 447 was cruising – is hard to recover from in still air. In the heart of a furious tropical storm at night, it could be near impossible. High-altitude stalls claimed several aircraft in the early days of jet aircraft.

Speculation over the fate of Flight 447 continued to rage as ships began trawling the crash area, spread over a 200-mile stretch. Debris, including airliner seats, has been identified from the air, about 800 miles off the Brazil coast. No bodies have been spotted

Nelson Jobim, Brazil's Defence Minister, said that a 12-mile-long slick of fuel had been found under the planned route of the Airbus. This meant it was improbable that there had been a fire or explosion, because the jet fuel would have ignited, he said.French experts dismissed this theory, noting that an explosion could fracture the fuselage and cause the break-up of an aircraft without igniting the fuel, which is mainly carried in the wings



Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
User currently offlinePanAm1971 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 51650 times:

Ok-layperson trying to communicate-could a sudden extreme wind speed change cause a stall? Could we be looking at that here?

User currently offlineMcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 51654 times:

I don't understand how the 'authorities' are so quick to eliminate terrorism as a potential cause of this accident. It would seem to me that until the wreckage is carefully examined for the telltale signs of a bomb initiated explosion and until the likely cause of the destruction of the airplane is determined that terrorism can't be ruled out.

Note that I'm not saying that this accident was caused by a terrorist act, only that the 'authorities' seem to have crossed it off the list of potential causes before the slightest bit analysis has been done.


25 WILCO737 : Depends how intense it is. If it is a drop in speed of 10 knots, then no big deal as there is enough margin to the stall speed. maybe even 30 knots i
26 KingFriday013 : Like wind shear? (Just to further clarify PanAm's question and ask my own) -J.
27 SEPilot : Perhaps. The reason we use nautical miles in aviation is thanks to Juan Trippe. He was fascinated by all things nautical and was the one who introduc
28 LHR380 : Am I wrong in thinking though Its kinda hard to stall an airbus aircraft? If the computers were going offline I guess it could have happened. What's t
29 Katekebo : Off-topic comment - The reason we use nautical miles is because it's convinient. One nautical mile equals one arc minute of latitude. So, if you are
30 David L : In the examples above we're talking about a tailwind suddenly becoming a headwind. If a strong headwind suddenly moves round to hit you from the side
31 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Wilco, please forgive my ignorance, but how does the magnitude of horizontal windshear encountered at cruise while flying through a cell compare with
32 Mrocktor : The purpose of terrorism is to cause fear and to exploit that fear for political ends. Anonymity defeats the purpose of terrorism. Since no one claim
33 Pihero : No, the principles are not clearer and it's time I chime in : First of all, 50 kt gusts are quite severe and in your example, a 50 kt tail wind follo
34 Breiz : The "Nautile", manned exploration sub, can reach 6 000 m. She is on her way o/b the French oceanographical vessel "Pourquoi pas?".
35 WILCO737 : The effect at low altitudes is a lot higher and worse. From my experience. I try to avoid CB's at all times. I don't like to be near them at all. Dur
36 VirginFlyer : I'm pretty sure they're referring to the ACARS messages we have been hearing about, not the FDR. V/F
37 TommyBP251b : Could it be possible that the Captain wasn't at the Stick during this tragical accident due to crew rest times? How are the AF regulations regarding
38 PanAm1971 : This is what I've been trying to communicate-and doing it badly.
39 Nomadd22 : Nice story, but that's not what a nautical mile has ever been. It's one minute of latitude, or a tad under 2027 yards. The old term "knots" was just
40 ULMFlyer : And folks, please stop listening to what the Brazilian defense minister says. He's a lawyer by training and a joke by choice. To Americans, I could de
41 Tugger : But the manned submersibles won't be the hero's here, it will be the 4-6 ROV's working almost non-stop at the bottom, investigating whatever the surf
42 ChrisK2 : Hello, No, they weren't. Nothing from the FDR was uplinked via satellite (FDRs don't work that way - not in this day and age, anyway), and the article
43 David L : Yes. If the aircraft is flying, for example, at 30 kts above the stall speed in a 40 kt headwind and that headwind suddenly drops to 0 kts then the a
44 LongHaul67 : Let's say AF447 was flying into the main cell at 35.000 feet doing 350 knots. Let's also assume the plane is hit by upward winds of 88 knots as stated
45 HawkerCamm : Gusts and sudden wind direction and speed changes upset the equilibrum of Thrust=Drag and Lift=Weight. This induces an oscillation called the phugoid
46 Dragon6172 : Would that sort of updraft be enough to unsettle the airflow into the engines?
47 ChrisK2 : Hello, Yes! Exactly. Yes! What people seem to be forgetting quickly: The whole term "terrorism" has been used soooo many times the last eight years or
48 Mir : Other way around. At the momet you encounter the change in wind, your groundspeed will still be 120 or 340. Your airspeed will jump to 170 or 390. Yo
49 Post contains links BA84 : May I suggest, if you have time, turn off the phone, get a cup of coffee, and read ALL of Tim Vasquez' weather analysis. http://www.weathergraphics.co
50 C010T3 : Air France is making some alterations to the second GIG-CDG flight. Tonight leaves the last AF447, which will become AF445 effective June 7th. The sch
51 Smcmac32msn : " target=_blank>http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/ You're probably the 400th link to this now since these threads have came to be. Thanks.
52 ChrisK2 : I second this. Tim's article is quite an excellent read. And, before I forget ... thanks a lot for this one: It's good to read something from the ligh
53 FCA767 : How does the Black Box know when the last 4 minutes of flight will be? If it can do 4 minutes when it's settled on water then why not send all the re
54 Post contains links 747MegaTop : Black Box recovery - I really hope that the black boxes are recovered. Given the fact that deep sea submersibles have reached Mariana Trench ...the de
55 BA84 : Yes, but how many members have read it all? It's a very daunting article. BA84
56 David L : As you said earlier in that post... Yes! Exactly. That's what I tried to say several times before but you summarised it much better than I did.
57 David L : It wasn't the last 4 minutes of FDR data, it was ACARS messages from the last 4 minutes before transmissions ceased. The FDR doesn't transmit any dat
58 Post contains images NAV20 : [quote=Pihero,reply=33]First of all, 50 kt gusts are quite severe and in your example, a 50 kt tail wind followed by a 50 kt head wind is the sign of
59 Readytotaxi : I was wondering what percentage of of the population think that there is total radar coverage on the globe, would they be shocked at the gaps out ther
60 FCA767 : Thanks David but also then I thought someone said they always transmit the last 4 minutes but how would they know the last 4 minutes was coming...I'm
61 David L : I have to say... you got the whole thing wrong in principle (well, you did ask). If the wind changes speed and/or direction suddenly then the airspee
62 Hywel : I haven't read all of the posts in the 10 threads so far, so apologies if this has already been mentioned. Has anyone thought about the possibility of
63 Post contains links Famfflores : A Brazilian ship has just picked up the first piece from the water. It´s a pallet used in the cargo hold compartment. They should confirm that it is
64 PanAm1971 : An interesting idea.
65 Post contains images David L : Interesting question, Grasshopper - they "just know". Well, it could keep transmitting untill it lost power and the receiving station could buffer 4
66 MarSciGuy : I know this is nitpicky, but being a hydrographer I'll nitpick - a nautical mile is actually 6076 feet, so SLIGHTLY over 2,000 yards.... I was going
67 Gniou : So I understand that once balck boxes are located, it's technically possible to retrieve them with such submersible (or other types mentioned in othe
68 LongHaul67 : I never really understood why the northbound flight # was out of sequence with the southbound to begin with.
69 PhB95 : Just saw in the french newspaper site "20 minutes" that the first debris have been retrieved, and none of it is from the missing plane: "La tâche de
70 PanAm1971 : Perhaps a SURTASS vessel could be sent to find the boxes if they're having trouble hearing the pinging bacuse of the depth and layers.
71 Post contains links Carls : http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/images.inc Take a look to this picture and then tell me that a lightning can"t bring an airplane dow. This pi
72 Post contains links Famfflores : hum.... An "expert" just gave an interview. His name is Gustavo Tavares da Cunha Mello. I guess his is not from this forum. He just said that the ADIR
73 SwivelHeadLAX : The lightning pictured cannot bring a plane down. Actually the link didn't work. But my answer would probably remain the same.
74 Post contains links PRAirbus : Perhaps the breaking up in mid-air theory is the result of that particular AF A330 collision with a AF A321 in 2006? The following link mentions that
75 HaveBlue : That link does not work Carls, and as SwivelHeadLAX said I doubt lightning brought down the plane.
76 JBirdAV8r : That was in a (HOAX) forwarded email. That damage was purportedly caused by a lightning strike, but was instead actually an electrical fire. Skin dam
77 LongHaul67 : CNN is reporting that helicopters have started to lift pieces from the water and dropping them on three naval vessels.
78 Klwright69 : No. In AA587, the pilots overcorrected, stressing out the rudder and breaking off the tail. Watch the Crash Investigation documentary on youtube. But
79 Honeythief : If the above report is correct, would that imply that the search has been concentrating in the wrong area or has further debris already been found at
80 NAV20 : Utterly wrong; but, oddly, also right, Famfflores. By which I mean that, as far as I know, the ADIRU just feeds information to the 'central' Flight D
81 MarSciGuy : If the signal is heard in several different locations it should be fairly easy to triangulate it to a fairly small region of the seabed. I'm not sure
82 FCA767 : true they would store the info ah yeah i wouldnt know that reference Yeah I read the Acars at home
83 David L : I still want to see the images but, nevertheless... I can think of someone from here... ... ah, maybe not, then. Seriously, on how many incidents is
84 Mir : It's possible, but it wouldn't have led to this. Even if the pilots were incapacitated, the aircraft would keep going on its programmed route, and it
85 Post contains links Famfflores : Very different from what´s being reported here. it´s mentioned that the ship Constituição just removed the first piece and it´s a part of a pall
86 Osiris30 : Since *when* does this happen.... oh shit I'm going to crash in 4 minutes, better uplink everything... this whole thing sounds like a crock to me. Ve
87 Keta : Even more, just a stall wouldn't cause all systems to fail in cascade as the ACARS transmission suggests, I mean it couldn't be the cause.
88 Sailfly : First hello to all this will be my first post. I work in the drilling industry and have enjoyed reading in the news and the posts the uncertainty surr
89 David L : AF have details of the ACARS messages transmitted via SATCOM over the last 4 minutes. The messages are almost certainly stored and/or printed out so
90 A388 : New generation aircraft apparently have this feature. The systems on board the A332 of AF apparently also have a constant link to the maintenance and
91 Honeythief : There seems to be a misunderstanding here. The 'four minutes' of data is a reference to the ACARS messages that were sent over a four minute period a
92 Carls : The picture was sent to me as a lightning strike, and I have to admitte that I did not confirmed if it was true or not. But if you say that a lightni
93 Oroka : What if they decreased airspeed a bit late and over did it in their rush, stalled, and encountered sever downdrafts? You go from a stall to a plunge.
94 MoMan : No. There is also AA 903, a sister A300 which suffered a pilot-induced stall near Miami, the pilots used excessive rudder inputs, and the vertical st
95 Adam42185 : That is my initial reaction as well due to the skin effect of electricity. The electric charge from the lightening would remain on the outside of the
96 JBirdAV8r : No problem--I wasn't accusing you of trying to hoax us Actually the damage from a lightning strike is generally much smaller than even 1/4ths of this
97 YYZYYT : According to the report, the aircraft had had a prior turbulence incident, but had undergone a thorough inspection (including the tail). No findings
98 PhB95 : Yes, this has just been said minutes ago on french TV. Let's hope it's indeed a part of the plane. It would be awfull to have to start all over searc
99 ThrottleHold : Turbulence penetration speed for the A330-200 at this altitude is M0.80. Managed cruising speed would be around M0.80 to M0.82, depending on the varia
100 PRAirbus : Quoting MoMan: No. There is also AA 903, a sister A300 which suffered a pilot-induced stall near Miami, the pilots used excessive rudder inputs, and t
101 Dougbr2006 : The ACARS system sends a signal at a fixed time interval this data is a maintenance tool and does not represent data from the Data Recorder though th
102 UltimateDelta : I suppose that if the plane was in a wildly uncontrolled stall while being thrown around in midair by the storm it could have been just ripped apart.
103 Pihero : No. This system transmits via Acars a message for every fault that is sensed by all systems, when it happens -there is a time stamp on each message i
104 Dougbr2006 : It was reported that way and even some internal AF sources said as much!
105 7673mech : Been skimming the thread and I have not seen it mentioned - something being overlooked. The aircraft could have sustained ground damage - a errant bag
106 PanAm1971 : A very good point.
107 N905TW : While it may be clarified later on, I am fairly certain that Air France is like other airlines in that they have a priority system for these messages
108 KingFriday013 : Or maybe a broken window panel? I know I've been on at least two flights (once a 757, the other a Dash 8) where the window panel was broken and i cou
109 ChrisK2 : Hello, Yes, that's the way I understand it, too. It's a store-and-forward service, with queues, and with the focus on reliable transmission, not neces
110 Ikramerica : I mentioned crack propagation a few threads back as a possible scenario for break apart when I suggested that the storm isn't necessarily the cause o
111 FCA767 : Welcome to the forum...and thanks for your info it was interesting about the currents
112 FlyLKU : That is true if the change is direction is reasonably gradual. If it is very quick then the airspeed indicator will momentarily register this differe
113 MakeMinesLAX : With all the prior incidents this one is being compared with, it's interesting the company among which the aerodynamic stall theory places AF 447: the
114 Wexfordflyer : Wow this topic keeps going and going!!! Great news to hear that they are collecting some of the debris. Hopefully soon we will have confirmation that
115 FCA767 : About the Plastic Window on your 757...I used to wonder why it was plastic...but I read somewhere that it is a cosmetic type window...and that the ou
116 Famfflores : I remember early in this discussion the possibility of an electrical failure. What about that, with some/all systems doing down and screens going blac
117 AAMDanny : Yes, However. Would it not cause more terror by not telling anyone who's doing the attack's. Anomity will spiral into Confrentations, Accusations, Me
118 Mandala499 : I have a bit of a tech question on this... What can cause the A/P to disconnect? An SEC/ELAC disagreement? If so, would the aircraft degrade to alter
119 Ukair : Does anyone think the outcome of this disaster would have been different if the flight was in daylight? As the pilots could see what was coming as app
120 EMA747 : I've not been able to get on the net all day so can someone kindly write a quick summary of what has happened since yesterday evening? What's all this
121 LongHaul67 : This has already been mentioned on previous threads, but I am convinced that this accident will push forward changes in how flight data is handled irr
122 Rj777 : I have a feeling that the FDR that can be jettisoned will eventually make their way onto commercial jets. Also, were the black boxes from 9/11 ever re
123 Happylandings : I'd like that one confirmed also - it's on some news and also some other forums but I've not been able to get a source yet. Help, anyone?
124 Oakmad : If that were truly the case I don't think the perpetrators would select a flight where there is likelihood of their act not being exposed as delibera
125 AverageUser : It really does not matter if they did not. Modern units store the data in semiconductor memories not unlike your USB data stick. In military/aviation
126 Canoecarrier : So where is all this data going to be stored? With the airline or an agency? With the thousands of commercial airline flights each day the amount of
127 David L : A single stall at low altitude probably has very different consequences from a single stall at cruise altitude, though. But I'm hardly an expert. But
128 CasInterest : This would make sense. I work in Telecom, and this would be entirely possible. The MTC hangers would have to have a serious data system though. The b
129 GlobeEx : WEll, however, if you are dealing with other problems at the same time (malfunctioning ADIRU, thrust controll, A/P or whatever doesn't help to minimi
130 Chumley : Was just reading more from USAToday and came across this quote: "There was some kind of in-flight violent" incident, said Bill Waldock, an air-crash e
131 Bond007 : Not so sure. They'll find the boxes, and it's not the first time it's taken a while to find them. The bandwidth required to transmit every parameter
132 MadameConcorde : PPRuNe post French Air Force has just reported that most of the debris found by SAR didn't belong to AF 447. Fuel patch most probably comes from some
133 LH526 : My first thought exactly!
134 Canoecarrier : To follow up on what Bond is saying. It isn't that often that the boxes are not recovered. A high percentage of aircraft crashes occur on take off or
135 Decoder : Does that mean that AF flight 447 is still missing?
136 Post contains images FCA767 : I'm not trying to be funny...but I used to think about Ejecter seats for all passengers like fighter planes have...This is a serious question I am pu
137 Osiris30 : ACARS is NOT the FDR. I know all about the ACARS messages. The OP said FDR data uplinked via SATCOM, that's what I'm calling BS on. Correct. An *extr
138 SEPilot : I believe that some of them were, but perhaps not all of them. And I think I read that data was recovered from them.
139 Osiris30 : With both engines running a flat spin *shouldn't* occurr without an *extreme* set of circumstances. At 35/37K ft a non-flat spin should be recoverabl
140 David L : Don't forget that only a few of many messages have been made public. Well... not really. Think about the weight, the cost, the larger seats, the poss
141 FCA767 : True True too...we really need to know what's happened...the wait is the worst...I'm always analysing things...
142 KingFriday013 : The mechanics of that are near impossible. And it would be extremely heavy, and expensive. It's probably safer to leave them out than risk a malfunct
143 RedFlyer : Best explanation I've heard thus far on why this probably isn't terrorism related. Maybe this is also why the authorities haven't focused on terroris
144 GlobeEx : Well, if ADRIU failure, PRIM, SEC, etc. heavy winds up to 160 mph, thats pretty extreme to me. Well 35/37K ft.... check the Pulkovo flight, it went u
145 David L : My apologies. It was worded very similarly to a post from someone who did think it was from the FDR. While replying, I do remember thinking "I though
146 BAPILOT2B : Let alone the possibility of multiple ejects at the same time leading to some tangled parachutes if this method would ever work.
147 SixtySeven : The bottom line is these guys ended up in a thunderstorm in a place where they can be difficult to detect but are very, very powerful. The airbus with
148 Aero145 : I would guess ”most” is what they’re certain isn’t AF447, and the other things they have no idea what is... makes sense?
149 Boeing747_600 : Didnt one of the ACARS messages establish that the aircraft was under ALTN LAW (Alternate Law) ?
150 Adam42185 : in lay-mans terms... what is the difference between alternate law and direct law? Does alternate still have some flight protection against stalls/ove
151 Wexfordflyer : IIRC the ones from the twin towers were not but I am not sure about any of the others. Do correct me if I am wrong. There seems to be lots of conflic
152 Rj777 : Ya know, CNN is making parallels to the titanic disaster. (difficulty of recovery). That almost makes this sound similar as well.. (crew's overconfid
153 Post contains links StasisLAX : Some interesting news from the Associate Press regarding the "black box" recovery efforts: "Remotely controlled submersible crafts will have to be use
154 SixtySeven : I wouldn't say any crew I have ever been on could be called "overconfident" in terms of the actual aircrafts abilities to penetrate storms. The crew t
155 Post contains links Toulouse : Very conflicting indeed. Basically, what I'm hearing here in France this evening, is that so far everything the Brazilians claimed to have been piece
156 Hardiwv : Breaking news: Brazilian media is now reporting headlines that the debris found and collected during today's operations are not related to AF A330. Am
157 Post contains links Antskip : "potentially faulty readings may have prompted the crew of the Air France flight to mistakenly boost thrust from the plane's two engines and increase
158 Toulouse : Oh God, well that puts a dampener on my last post just a minute or so before you with latest news from France.
159 Mcg : [ Thanks for the info.
160 YWG747 : This coming just hours after an article saying the craft may have stalled and crashed.... I don't know what to believe anymore....
161 Post contains links Hardiwv : Here is the link: http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/cotidiano/ult95u576640.shtml According to Brazil authorities the material collected today bears
162 Keta : Yes, that's why I said it couldn't be the cause, not the other way round
163 Post contains links AF2323 : My only source is internet, but here's what I found : http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/06/...rieving-debris/UPI-35751244148300/
164 PPVRA : Don't get hung up on that quote, all they know at this point is that it isn't obvious the debris are from AF or from an A330. They are gonna have to
165 JSquared : I’ve been following the threads about this accident form the beginning, and it still makes me sick to think about how a large modern jet like the A3
166 Pihero : WE have seen all on A.net : armchair aviators, 20,000 hour-experienced sim pilots and now self-appointed accident investigation experts ! I have seen
167 757GB : You beat me to it. I was reading the article in Portuguese but I'm a little rusty on it What it says is very different from saying that the parts do
168 Post contains links 747MegaTop : What are the chances (meaning..does it happen) of lightning strike happening at cruise altitude..at 35000feet in the case of AF 447? If that is possib
169 LongHaul67 : Cost of data storage today is next to nothing. Take a look at how Youtube can store enormous amounts of data - for free. In addition it is easy to ap
170 DL752 : Do you think this was similar to DL 191? My prayers go to the family and friends of the passengers and crew. DL752
171 SpeedbirdA380 : I always give it a week or two before after something like this happens before I start taking info I read in the press seriously. After every crash o
172 Canoecarrier : Storage may not be the problem but transmission most certainly would be. YouTube sends and receives information via the internet. What people are sug
173 757GB : That's a wise attitude. I have to admit it's hard though. We all want so much to know what happened that a lot of times we can't help it. You end up
174 Antskip : My thoughts also - opposites - though both scenarios suggest faulty speed - too little (causing stall) or too much (causing breakup). Interesting tha
175 ChrisK2 : Hello, Well, when you suggest some action (like, moderators taking action to forcibly lower the "noise" on a forum), the question is: Will it improve
176 BAViscount : Agreed. I can't believe that this topic has got to "Part 10" - yes, it's one of the most tragic accidents of recent times, but once you get past the
177 Bramble : I think the media is over speculating about the cause of this tragedy. They need infomation and will interview anyone with an opinion. So far we have
178 Richierich : That's correct - this mystery has brought out every possible explanation known to man although I'm still waiting for the "collision with an alien cra
179 ThrottleHold : An ADR 1 + 2 + 3 Fault results in Alternate Law. The A330 does not have ELAC's. It has PRIM's and SEC's. From the A330 FCOM: Alternate Law..... ALTN
180 Ikramerica : That's what mysteries do. But it's educational, because people learn what is and isn't possible from the limited data points by asking questions and
181 Micstatic : Amen. I think dialog is the reason we are all on a.net
182 Adam42185 : awesome thanks for all that, didnt know there was so much involved
183 757GB : Thank you very much for the detail. I have to admit I saved it in my notes because I really want to read it slowly and understand it when I get some
184 Trystero : Is this a forum for experts only or for enthusiasts? If it's pilots only, I'm out of here! You may know a lot more, but previous cases showed us that
185 Post contains links KBUF : Brazil Recovers first AF447 debris FERNANDO DE NORONHA, Brazil – A Brazilian helicopter crew recovered the first wreckage from Air France Flight 447
186 Post contains links BMIFlyer : Last minutes of doomed plane "Doomed Air France Flight 447's last terrifying few minutes in the air have already been pieced together by accident inve
187 PPVRA : I find it hard to believe that the plane disintegrated anywhere when there's so little evidence floating around. Maybe there's more somewhere, we jus
188 QFMel : Main issue remains locating it, recovery likely to be less problematic; though that's not to say less time consuming. As has been suggested in previo
189 Iflyatldl : Yeah, they had the same account on ABC Nightline last night. Scary stuff! It kind makes me wonder: if the computer on the Qantas jet was acting on ba
190 Post contains images ThrottleHold : Screenshots of AF447 ACARS Mx messages. Print format means that the first message received is at the bottom of the lists.
191 QFMel : I couldn't agree more with the tone of your post. My first post on this site was a few threads back and I said pretty much the same thing. I've tried
192 LTBEWR : Part of such a belief is to in part be honest, not putting out false hope. It may also suggest that the people on this flight didn't suffer, probably
193 Post contains links EZEIZA : Apparently the debris recovered was NOT from the A330!!! http://infobae.com/contenidos/452719...ales-encontrados-no-son-del-Airbus (spanish only, sorr
194 Post contains links Sidneys : http://www.airbusdriver.net/airbus_fltlaws.htm The link above should help you to undestand what's the diference in between the Airbus Flight Control
195 EMA747 : Please point me to where it says we cannot discuss this topic, because I can't see it. I am sure there is a pilots only forum somewhere so why not ju
196 ComeAndGo : Radar in itself is essentially useless. It's old technology nothing more. Merchant vessel show up on radar screens. Most of the information used by A
197 TUNisia : WELL SAID! It's the holier than thou crowd that really gets under my skin. This is an AVIATION FORUM, of course people are going to debate and share
198 Post contains links 757GB : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...o-confirm-origin-of-retrieved.html This report from Flightglobal says that confirmation has not been made yet,
199 Osiris30 : See this is the type of crap people should be complaining about. That article reads as if it's pure fact! Does: "NAV ADR DISAGREE" have anything to d
200 PPVRA : Looks like the military doesn't believe the wooden "pallet" is anything important. Being considered just "trash". Really not part of this accident.
201 AlitaliaMD11 : According to the link EZEIA posted, the cargo pallet retrieved from the water was made of wood and not of aluminum which is 'not the material of norm
202 ThrottleHold : Possibly, I don't have that AD to hand, but here's the FCOM procedure..... This caution is triggered by the PRIMs, when they only use 2 ADRs, and the
203 757GB : Correct. Now that I read it again I realize I didn't express myself correctly. It's perfectly possible that some debris recovered might not be from A
204 Rj777 : I think it's a little too early to determine definitively that the plane broke up in mid-air. It's only been 4 days since the plane disappeared.
205 Zvedava : In your opinion then - how would the aircfraft behave if it - let say penetrated the turbulence with airspeed lower than recomended (for whatever rea
206 Post contains links ComeAndGo : From ATWonline.com June 4, 2009 - http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=16803 How do wing spoilers fail ?? Maybe by a failing or bent wing
207 QFMel : I agree with Pihero's point not because it implicitly condones expert comment only or elitism. The issue is more that there is a qualitative differen
208 Post contains links Jbernie : Something I found online: http://www.hursts.eclipse.co.uk/airbus-nonnormal/html/ar01s10.html 10.4. ADR disagree [QRH 2.14, FCOM 3.2.34, FCOM 1.34.10.
209 ThrottleHold : Some spoilers become U/S due to the failure of PRIM1 (spoilers 5 and 9) and SEC1 (spoilers 1 and 10) which control them.
210 EMA747 : I see what you are saying and agree with you. Totally wild speculation without even trying to understand the issues is not good. The point I was tryi
211 Post contains links Tietkej : It's frustrating how the media is going back and forth with headlines. Check this excerpt out from the Sydney Mroning Herald: "Other debris spotted so
212 Post contains links ARGinLON : this is getting pretty spooky now... http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/04/plane.crash/index.html RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (CNN) -- The Brazilian
213 Post contains links AlitaliaMD11 : CNN is now reporting that NONE of the debris, including the seat, are from the Air France A330. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/04/plane.cra
214 PPVRA : From what I gather, not all debris have been recovered. They are still after other ones previously spotted. So far the recovered ones are not believed
215 Adam1115 : If the black boxes are sitting at 12,000 feet, is it even possible they will still be functional...?
216 JBirdAV8r : Yes. In theory they should be fine and retain their data indefinitely. The "pingers," however, are life-limited.
217 Tietkej : Yeah, from what I understand they were basically saying that none of the recovered debris is from AF447. But apparently there is more still in the wat
218 Btblue : So none of the debris is from the AF A330. Question is, where is it from then? I believe they found an airline seat, in the middle of the ocean but no
219 Bridogger6 : Has anyone thought of the possibility that maybe the debris is coming from a jet that the AF aircraft may have struck middair? Some plane on some type
220 SkyHigh777 : CNN is now reporting as well that the Brazilian air force is saying the debris is not from Flt 447... If it's not, how is it possible to lose such a l
221 Canoecarrier : The oceans of the world are littered with trash. Ships run into cargo containers all the time dropped from ocean going ships. As busy as the airways
222 Tonytifao : I had a gut feeling when they first announced they found debris it wasn't from the plane. I just knew they hadn't found. Not one image was made public
223 Rj777 : What I'd like to know is, how is this going to affect the families? This has got to be a big blow to them.
224 Johningrr : What I don't understand is that we are talking about the Brazilian Navy here pulling part out of the ocean. They would have to know what this stuff is
225 Tonytifao : That is brazil for you. You have our president bragging something like ... "if we can find oil at such level, we can find an aircraft". I personaly t
226 CuriousFlyer : If they are finding parts from a different airplane (if this seat is not from the AF A-330), maybe there is a second plane which collided with it... I
227 Canoecarrier : Most major airlines have crisis response teams. When I worked for an airline I was part of one. Like AF they are all volunteer. We used to train by b
228 757GB : I tend to agree with this. There is a void of information and every tiny bit of it triggers instant conclusions or far fetched theories. I'll read ev
229 Matheus : I think some people didnt realize how big and how far from the land the search area is. Its almost half way from Brazil to Africa, even the fastest bo
230 777den : Satellite comms are not much cheaper. International phone calls are almost all over undersea and underground fiber cables, which have gotten much che
231 LipeGIG : Thanks for the info. Allow me to disagree. Not that we have technology, but experience for sure our Navy and Air Force have a lot, and they are using
232 Ualcsr : Sorry for my lack of technical knowledge (CSR background) but I've been curious about something. If the message about the autopilot disengaging came a
233 Tonytifao : Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard they had 2 planes searching. I don't think 2 planes are enough for this search. I'm not sure how much night visi
234 Matheus : A P3 Orion, as far as I know.
235 Tietkej : Loads and loads of theories have been posted in this thread, mate. Do take some time to browse through the posts if you're interested. There's 10 par
236 Post contains links FuturePilot16 : http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31100637 This report states that an agency spoke out againsty hasty speculation because the french newspaper "Le Monde" st
237 Gasgh : All this talk of airspeed and groundspeed - aren't any of the licensed pilots on this forum paying attention??? My knowledge and experience comes as a
238 Ualcsr : Thanks for the advice Tietkej but that's just it; from someone who loves the industry but who is "technically challenged", I was curious as to why th
239 YWG : I think you should stick to playing computer games rather than commenting on systems you are clearly unfamiliar with. For Airbus to have already issu
240 ADent : I would think the crew would want to figure something out - rather than ATC, this is ABC123 and we just had some lights come on. If they were busy in
241 Superhub : Now the Brazillian Air Force says that the debris in the Atlantic does not come from the Air France jet.
242 NAV20 : Ualcsr, the likelihood is that the pilots spent every second of those four minutes desperately trying to work out what had gone wrong and bring the ae
243 ManuCH : I don't think so. There is freedom of press after all. That journalists can write random stuff is well known, but that shouldn't make it illegal for
244 ManuCH : Is there a way to obtain the directive Airbus issued to the operators, with its exact wording? It would probably be more useful this way than reading
245 XT6Wagon : I'm not sure this is the case. Its possible that the system kicked off the autopilot, and the pilots were relatively unconcerned at the time. The "ca
246 Post contains links Tonytifao : Look at this image released LOL. It sure looks like an airplane. http://oglobo.globo.com/fotos/2009/06/04/04_MHG_destroços.jpg
247 PanAm788 : That's what I thought too. This is certainly the strangest plane crash I can remember. I can smell the conspiracy theories brewing.
248 Ikramerica : The theory that old damage to the aircraft may have been missed and when faced with design load limit forces caused by a sever storm, the wing failed,
249 Post contains links and images KingFriday013 : " target=_blank>http://oglobo.globo.com/fotos/2009/0...s.jpg What is that? -J.
250 Flood : Got it, thanks We're approaching part 11 and it's hard enough to keep up with this thread as it is. As such, just an appeal for people to check previ
251 Post contains images Astuteman : The trouble is, we don't yet know if such a failure is a cause, or a consequence. It's easy to see where most people's view defaults to, and its easy
252 727forever : Generally shearing aloft is not as severe as closer to the surface. Winds aloft are generally much stronger. Winds of 145 knots are not at all uncomm
253 AAden : Correct me if I'm worng but the air comet flight was 2,000km away from where AFs messages were reported from.... They couldn't havce seen AF 447. So
254 QFMel : Having read all 2500 posts, I think it's safe to say things like 'I think it's a bomb because x' (not knowing whether or not x has actually happened)
255 Tsaord : I just want them to find that plane and as many victims as possible. The families and friends will have no closer if they don't. All of a sudden their
256 Post contains links Moderators : Thread got too long again and will be locked. Please continue here in part 11: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/443622
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