EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7170 posts, RR: 45 Posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13845 times:
I am possibly going to travel to Europe in September, and I have a DL voucher that I would like to use to pay for part of my flights. It is likely that one of my return legs will be FRA-JFK. However, I have ran a search and the flight is being operated with a 757-200... I had high hopes that this would be a 777-200ER, A330-200 (with the NW substitutions) or 767-400ER route, but to my disappointment it is a 52. Is there too much offer of seats from LH, AA and SQ in this route or why is DL not sending a widebody to FRA from JFK?
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9286 posts, RR: 13 Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13844 times:
It's flown with a 757 because the loads don't rate a 777
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
DFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1064 posts, RR: 9 Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13820 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Thread starter): Is there too much offer of seats from LH, AA and SQ in this route or why is DL not sending a widebody to FRA from JFK?
Hush-kit From Germany, joined Sep 2000, 124 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13828 times:
FRA is highly dominated by STAR ALLIANCE , and DL had a hard time to fill their 763 during the last seasons. Just a lack of feeding traffic for DL for their JFK flight @ FRA.
AND, they are in the need to free 763 equipment based on their expansion plans .
Tinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13800 times:
It's a combination of the things you mentioned plus the fact that DL needs it's widebodies elsewhere where more $$$ can be generated. DL has been rapidly expanding its international destinations; most noteworthy is their expansion into Africa requiring the use of many 767's that previously served Europe. Rather than purchase new aircraft, DL did a smart thing by converting existing 767's to ER's instead of sending them to MCO and other points in FL out of ATL. JFK-FRA hasn't seen anything bigger than a 763ER since DL closed it's Pan Am acquired hub there. Traffic is down worldwide, but especially to Europe. Some of the biggest markets like NYC-FRA have way too much capacity, so the logical thing to do to preserve their presence was to downgauge the flight to an ETOPS 752 rather than leaving the market altogether.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
Jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7343 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13799 times:
Delta probably shuld even fly JFK to FRA if it has come to using only a 757. Delta does well from ATL & CVG to FRA. Delta does poorly to northwest Europe against the multiple daily flights bu the European airlines to JFK from AMS, CDG, BRU and FRA. Delta is strong to southern Europe and eastern Europe.
Tinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13754 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5): Delta probably shuld even fly JFK to FRA if it has come to using only a 757. Delta does well from ATL & CVG to FRA. Delta does poorly to northwest Europe against the multiple daily flights bu the European airlines to JFK from AMS, CDG, BRU and FRA. Delta is strong to southern Europe and eastern Europe.
Im assuming you mean DL shouldn't fly NYC-FRA. But what you've got to remember is that sheer number don't tell the whole story...profit does. And DL is not the least bit gun shy about pulling a route that doesn't work. There is alot more TATL flying with 757's now than at any point in the past. If sending a 767 makes the route lose money and a 757 allows them to make money, then they are doing the right thing.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13749 times:
Probably for the same reason that AA, CO, NW, and US also use 757s on a number of other routes, including to key western Europe business centers. The 757 is the right plane for some routes for some airlines. By the same token, CO is the sole US airline using the 762ER (true ER) while the big 3 all chose the 763ER because the 762 and 763 have very similar trip costs. Less capacity provides a greater opportunity to maximize revenue.
Dutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13673 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7): By the same token, CO is the sole US airline using the 762ER (true ER) while the big 3 all chose the 763ER because the 762 and 763 have very similar trip costs
Tinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13646 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7): Less capacity provides a greater opportunity to maximize revenue.
IF it's a saturated market with low yeilds.
Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 8): CO operates the 767-400 on the EWR-FRA route
I don't think he specifically meant they op the 762ER to FRA, just that they operate it at all, while almost everyone else in the US except US ops the 763ER.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5754 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13624 times:
Quoting Tinpusher007 (Reply 4): DL did a smart thing by converting existing 767's to ER's instead of sending them to MCO and other points in FL out of ATL
Since when did DL convert their domestic 763s to 763ERs? They are still non-ER 763s. DL has only parked a few of them due to the economic environment. BTW, it isn't possible to convert most of them to 763ERs, as they mostly use GE CF6-80A2 engines. Only the four ETOPS aircraft (ships 1401-1404) can be converted to 763ERs as they have P&W PW4060 engines, however, DL does not plan on converting them. These particular aircraft are mostly used on LAX/SLC-HNL routes.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19696 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13578 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5): Delta probably shuld even fly JFK to FRA if it has come to using only a 757.
That would leave the NYC-FRA market with no SkyTeam carrier, which would be a huge hole for the alliance.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8577 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13546 times:
3 reasons. 1) ATL-FRA is a 764 2) it run on most O/D. Where ATL is big on needing feed. 3) it is a *A hub BUT i would assume that DL still has a fair group of FFs over there from the FRA hub days.
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5): Delta probably shuld even fly JFK to FRA if it has come to using only a 757.
Why do you dis like the 757 so much? Why do you think that EVERY market needs a 777 or larger or that carrier fails in said market. I hope you didn't look into COs winter LHR flights from EWR. As said above JFK-FRA on DL is mostly O/D. With CO,LH and SQ in the market also (all 3 being in *A) Delta isn't going to waste a 763 (much less a 764,332,333,777,744) on the route. Its alot like AA starting up ATL-NRT with a 777.......it may work but it would be the biggest waste of a 777 ever.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
FuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2018 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13493 times:
What's wrong with a 752?
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6779 posts, RR: 25 Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13368 times:
I think its important that DL fly this route. They need a precence connecting NYC with FRA as they are two of the most important business centers in the world. Even if its just with at 752, they need to be there.
I am however wondering when DL will cancel CVG-FRA or at least move it to MSP. To me it makes no sense why DL would fly this route with all the downsizing CVG has recieved. I think this will happen before its said and done.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16255 posts, RR: 52 Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13334 times:
1 daily 757 for DL between NYC and FRA is a far cry from the early Nineties when DL was flying L1011-500s and 767-300s from both EWR and JFK to FRA.
OOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1395 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13267 times:
Look, if DL can fill a 757 then so be it. No need to put anything bigger on the route when there is only enough demand for a 757. Plus you get PTV's where with a 767-300 you wouldn't.
L1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 971 posts, RR: 15 Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13218 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14): I am however wondering when DL will cancel CVG-FRA or at least move it to MSP. To me it makes no sense why DL would fly this route with all the downsizing CVG has recieved. I think this will happen before its said and done.
As long as DL has a hub in CVG they will fly to FRA from there. Even after all the downsizing at CVG it is after all still a major DL hub... people sometimes seem to forget about that fact. Also it makes a lot more sense for FRA passengers to connect through CVG instead of ATL on certain routes to the Mid-West, Northeast, Northwest of the US... where flying through ATL would be backtracking. They have a hub in CVG... why not use it... they sure wanna have a presence on aforementioned routes... And why in the world should they even consider moving it to MSP??? Even NW doesn't have a FRA-MSP nonstop... IF, and to me it's a big IF... they would move the flight somewhere else they'd ratehr offer a second FRA-DTW flight instead of flying to MSP... But I highly doubt that FRA-CVG will be terminated...
Anyone has any figures and info on how DL48/49 performs? The flight is mostly full, that's for sure... Any DL insiders have any info?
OOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1395 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13175 times:
Loads on the CVG-FRA flight for the next week or so all show it being anywhere from a couple empty seats in the back to being oversold and about 40% full in business.
So tihs flight is doing great in the back, however because of the economic crisis is only on average 40% full up front.
L1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 971 posts, RR: 15 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13173 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 15): 1 daily 757 for DL between NYC and FRA is a far cry from the early Nineties when DL was flying L1011-500s and 767-300s from both EWR and JFK to FRA.
Very, very true... but keep in mind that this was during the days when DL still had it's FRA hub and was the number 1 US carrier into FRA and Germany...
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13105 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 15): 1 daily 757 for DL between NYC and FRA is a far cry from the early Nineties when DL was flying L1011-500s and 767-300s from both EWR and JFK to FRA.
The JFKFRA flight continued to BOM; many of the destinations that were "beyond" the FRA hub now are served nonstop from JFK now. There is no doubt that DL's JFK hub is larger than it ever was and that DL still has access to more of Europe via its own metal and the Skyteam alliance than it ever did in the 90s.
Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 19): Very, very true... but keep in mind that this was during the days when DL still had it's FRA hub and was the number 1 US carrier into FRA and Germany...
It still is true that DL serves more cities in Germany - and Europe - with its own aircraft than any other airline.
And with the exception of UA who has a JV with LH, I believe DL is still the largest airline in just about every German city. The same can be said about most other continental Europe cities as well.
L1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 971 posts, RR: 15 Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13023 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20): The JFKFRA flight continued to BOM; many of the destinations that were "beyond" the FRA hub now are served nonstop from JFK now. There is no doubt that DL's JFK hub is larger than it ever was and that DL still has access to more of Europe via its own metal and the Skyteam alliance than it ever did in the 90s.
Correct... DL106 (763) went from JFK to FRA then on to BOM, while DL72 (L15) went from JFK to FRA and on to IST with a scheduled change of equipment to a 72S at FRA. Now DL72 is a nonstop from JFK to IST.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20): It still is true that DL serves more cities in Germany - and Europe - with its own aircraft than any other airline.
And with the exception of UA who has a JV with LH, I believe DL is still the largest airline in just about every German city. The same can be said about most other continental Europe cities as well.
You're absolutely right about that. DL is still the number 1 US carrier to Germany, and serves the most cities in Germany. UA is naturally the biggest US carrier in FRA now. But I think it's still not anywhere near the number of daily flights and capacity where PA and DL once were in FRA during the hub days...
SeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4277 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12996 times:
The TATL 752 is one of DL's better international products. The cabins were comprehensively refurbished in 2007 and feature AVOD in Y.
Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3014 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12952 times:
DL is unable to profitably compete in key business markets out of JFK, including LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, and FRA. However, they want to maintain a presence in these markets mainly so they can offer business contracts and premium pax an option to key business centers. Thus, they've downgraded to the smallest aircraft they can.
I hate the idea of a 757 transatlantic, but honestly, DL's 763s aren't a pleasant experience either. At least with DL, it's probably a wash.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16255 posts, RR: 52 Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12896 times:
Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 21): You're absolutely right about that. DL is still the number 1 US carrier to Germany, and serves the most cities in Germany.
While DL serves the most Cities in Germany from the US, I doubt they carry more passengers than UA between the US and Germany.
UA has the following service to Germany;
FRA/MUC:
7 daily 777s, 1 daily 747-400, 1 daily 767-300
That's a lot of seats:
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
25 Alitalia744: By your logic then, other airlines, who choose to operate 757s into these markets are unable to compete as well? Just trying to understand here.
26 LAXdude1023: I wouldnt label that as due to the economy. Other flights to FRA from other hubs in the US are preforming quite well in the front.
27 Tinpusher007: I didn't mean the non-ER's What I should have said was that there were some ER's that were being used domestically and didn't have B.E., etc.
28 STT757: Who are you referring, AA, CO ?.. CO flies 757s in conjunction with Widebodies on most major Western European business routes: LHR 2 757s, 1 777-200E
29 OA412: And your source indicating that all of these flights are/were unprofitable is what?[Edited 2009-06-05 10:46:30]
30 SeaBosDca: Unless you mean 764ERs, there are not.
31 L1011Lover: That's not correct... LH for instance suffered losses in the premium classes on ALL flights to the US as well... and it's definitely because of the e
32 SESGDL: Statements like this are what make arguments start and threads locked. Unless you have access to DL's finances you have no idea what routes are profi
33 LAXdude1023: I was speaking more specific to the CVG flight. I dont have much data for LH, just for AA. ORD-FRA J loads have taken a bit of a hit, DFW-FRA continu
34 RwSEA: For a carrier whose sole presence on an important business route like AMS or JFK - NYC is a once-daily 757, then I would say yes, they are a marginal
35 OB1504: I was thinking this, too. The 75W may not be the largest or most "prestigious" aircraft in Delta's fleet, but the interiors are leagues ahead of DL's
36 Steex: While none of us can really substantiate whether or not these things are true, I think it's highly unlikely that AMS or CDG belongs in this statement
37 Alitalia744: So AA is a non-competitor/marginal competitor in JFK-BRU right given that they switched the route to a 757? I'm just trying to understand the logic h
38 OA412: Don't forget JFK-BCN where they also downgauged to a 757 while DL upgauged to a 764. I guess AA can't compete to BCN either.
39 WorldTraveler: DL operates to many European cities from multiple hubs and all of that service from other hubs is on widebody aircraft. The fact that CO flies double
40 Steeler83: Yeah, seriously. PIT's happy to have a transatlantic DL 752; actually they're happy to have scheduled commercial flights to Europe again, albeit on a
41 CokePopper: The newest update that we (F/A's) are being told is that when the 767's go in for new business elite seats, they will also get PTV's for Y class. Acco
42 1337Delta764: I wonder, will they get the Thompson Cozy Suites in Y, or will they get the Weber 5751 slimline seats with winged headrests? I know DL has stated the
43 DLflynhayn: DL also had LAX-FRA in the mid nineties with the MD-11.
44 DAirbus: Ships 1701-1708 were converted from a domestic configuration to international about 3 years ago. I think these are the 767ER's Tinpusher was referrin
45 Jetlanta: Of course, none of this means that the routes you mentioned are unprofitable. If the 757 is the right size aircraft for Delta on these routes, they v
46 BinMonster: Four Letters drive CVG to FRA / Eurpoe P&G GE P&G for the passenger side GE for Cargo. The number of banks have been reduced at CVG. However one of t
47 CokePopper: That's a good question. I would hope that if the Cozy Suites are approved, they would go right into installing them with PTV's. instead of installing
48 Gigneil: I'm sure they have a contractual obligation which keeps the plane on the route. NS
49 DeltaL1011man: just like them starting JFK-ZRH. Its only 752 but its a need route for SkyTeam Not as long as it has contracts to back it up. this is true but the FR
50 1337Delta764: Actually, the seats on the 763As (except for the four ETOPS aircraft) were actually shorter than the 763ER seats. Still, the current seats on the 763
51 JBAirwaysFan: Expansion plans????? DL plans to cut international capacity this year.
52 Jfk777: 757 have there use to Europe to secondary cities like Malaga, Edinburgh, Glasgow, etc. Or from a secondary USA city like Clevealnd to LHR. Continenta
53 LAXdude1023: Do they have contracts for CVG-FRA? If they do, it would explain why they would keep it around.
54 STT757: Which is much more capacity than AA and DL's single daily 757s. CO's EWR-BRU route is very profitable, hence the 777-200ER. Perhaps CO will put more
55 Steex: I should've worded it more carefully; AMS and CDG are major non-stop JV cities out of JFK. While the joint venture also applies to all other flights
56 NYC-AIR: My understanding is that their 757s have AVOD, whereas the 763ERs have communal screens. PAX flying the 757s will probably be impressed.
57 WorldTraveler: Again, CO serves BRU from precisely one US gateway... not so with its competition.
58 Gigneil: CO also is serving BRU from their major New York hub, on top of their huge portfolios of business travelers in the area. New York - Brussels is a huge
59 CALPSAFltSkeds: CO's use of the 772ER, when available, is a clear indication of the BF demand that CO can attract on the NYC-BRU route. That gives CO 50 BF seats vs.
60 Panamair: And you know for a fact that TWA made money flying to FRA all those years? Not to mention that markets are dynamic; the market at the time TWA and Pa
61 FlyAA757: I flew DL106 JFK-FRA on a 763 and DL73 IST-FRA-JFK on 722/L15 in 1991...those were the days!
62 Cubsrule: Admittedly, we can't be sure whether JFK-FRA is profitable without a lot more data than is publicly available, but we can compare load factors for va
63 AirNZ: That's all they need. What the competition do is entirely their own concern
64 L1011Lover: TWA terminated it's JFK-FRA-JFK service in january of 1997, and never returned to FRA. Even though they had plans to resume service to FRA from it's
65 DeltaCTO: At FRA's peak - DL flew nonstop: JFK - 2 EWR IAD ATL - 2 MCO CVG DFW LAX SFO Beyond FRA to: IST BOM SVO LED WAW ATH BUD VIE-OTP
66 L1011Lover: Very well informed... that's all correct. But you may add PRG to the beyond FRA list, as well as DEL and DL also flew from FRA to LGW at one point wi
67 Ocracoke: TWA withered on the vine for quite a while in FRA. They went from a B747 to a L1011 to a B767 to totally pulling out of the JFK-FRA market. This well
68 United1: Didn't know about that one, UA got the LHR-FRA rights from PA didn't realize that DL operated the flights as well.
69 Hjulicher: Unfortunately for CVG, the new DL hub up in DTW does everything that CVG can do. However, if infact CVG has contracts, then I can see the reasoning f
70 Cgnnrw: I've flown DL FRA-JFK on their 757, DUS-ATL on the 763 and ATL-FRA on the 764. The best was the 764 flight. The IFE and wider cabin made it a more enj
71 WorldTraveler: Once again, DL has 80+% of a $900M market in CVG.... DL will do everything possible to eliminate duplication between CVG and DTW that add costs but t
72 Keesje: The large number of European pax from Skyteam AF/KLM and Delta/NWA are chaneled through the AMS and CDG hubs. High frequency flight to all large / med
73 DeltaL1011man: IIRC this is why its still a 767. With what they have been loading into the system they have been cuting/downgrading routes from DTW to places closer
74 LAXdude1023: It would have to be. I dont think the 757 could make it. But DL has already shown that the opposite is happening. CVG has lost flights in favor of DT
75 Gigneil: I believe that almost certainly flights from CVG to CDG and AMS will always exist. NS
76 DeltaL1011man: DL is playing the If its closer game. Plus it will be a little more clear ina few days. DTW is going to be getting alot more RJs. DL is lossing money
78 DLDTW1962: I think DL is doing the right thing. Some of these airlines are flying with 80 passenager on the larger aircraft and they are not making any money on
80 LAXdude1023: Im dont think (if) DL cancels CVG-FRA it will be moved. Probably they will just cancel it. It will be interesting to see what DL has up their sleeve
81 Bridge: I recently flew BOS-AMS on a 752 in coach and it was surprising comfortable....the seat pitch was quite generous and the aisle seemed quite wide. In f
83 LAXdude1023: You said it, I didnt. Although to be fair DL was always playing second fiddle at DFW (third fiddle if you could WN at DAL) unlike CVG where they domi
84 Hjulicher: When are the fall schedules released? I think that with DL cutting 10% of INTL flying, all hubs will be affected, as will frequency. That means fewer
85 STT757: You might also include MCO, I used to fly DL into MCO in the early '90s from EWR. DL owned MCO, they got that brand new air side, announced a bunch o
86 MAH4546: There is a large U.S. military pressence in Pisa that might help to keep that route up during off-peak even.
87 DeltaCTO: YES !! MCO was supposed to be DL's Latin America Gateway. Those schedules were indeed loaded into the Reservations System At one point in the early 9
88 L1011Lover: Now it's official... CVG-FRA-CVG will be terminated in september... along with CVG-LGW-CVG. SHOCKING!!! I would have never expected that... that's MY
89 LAXdude1023: It did seem like this flight was vaunerable though. With CVG dwindleing, this flight stuck out as the most likely to go of the Transatlantic flights
90 Avek00: Because Delta has p*ssed away its historic strength in the FRA market.
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