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Less Leg Room, More Complaints?  
User currently offlineSsublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 517 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4523 times:

With Airlines reducing pitch to accommodate more seats what will that do to the average or slightly bigger than average customer? There are plenty complaints of larger/taller customers having to pay for extra seats, this makes it alittle tougher. At 6'4 I've always stayed away from American because of legroom, looks like my options just got smaller. I might just start caving to pay more for the exit row.





http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home...ain-Less-Legroom?mod=family-travel

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8913 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4484 times:



Quoting Ssublyme (Thread starter):
I might just start caving to pay more for the exit row.

Keep in mind that many of the aforementioned airlines won't necessarily give you first dibs on the exit row. JetBlue, Virgin, Spirit, AirTran(and maybe Frontier - not sure) will upsell it to you (note many of those already have the most legroom). Alaska, Delta, Continental, US Airways, American, United and Northwest (for some seats; they do sell some at 24-hours out) all give elites first dibs on those seats and allow them to be booked well in advance before a non-elite can have access to those seats. The best way to get exit rows really is to fly enough to get elite status (most airlines - UA and CO being the two major exceptions) require you to only fly 25k miles a year to get exit rows.


User currently offlineAidan5151 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4465 times:

Correct about the loss of options here. I just love how the airlines advertise that they are compensating for the loss of leg room by improving the lower seat cushion to function more like a movie theatre seat. It still boils down to less leg room and narrower seats and so equals even less comfort.

It also saddens me that they are taking advantage of galley removal to add seats.

Cheers,
Aidan


User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2180 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4432 times:

If passengers won't pay more, then you need more passengers.

User currently offlineFrmrCAPCADET From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4199 times:



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 3):
If passengers won't pay more, then you need more passengers.

The airlines have tried this for the last 20 years. It seems not to work.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineNASBWI From Bahamas, joined Feb 2005, 1320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 4):
The airlines have tried this for the last 20 years. It seems not to work.

You may be right there. However, some airlines (AA comes to mind) tried reversing that by adding more legroom...that didn't seem to work for them, either. It's been discussed almost to death on here by now, but still, when it comes to passenger comfort and what they're willing to pay, the airlines just can't seem to win.

A great example is to read some of the postings right here on A.net. You will see that many complain about the state of the US air travel industry, and its many shortcomings. Some of them even say that they are willing to pay more to get the service to which they were accustomed back in the '70s. Still many more complain that prices aren't reasonable enough and/or they only book flights from a very price-conscious perspective - in that, their decision to purchase one ticket or another may be a difference of $2. Who wins?

You will find that some airlines try to find a happy medium in their service offerings, and even that is met with complaints from travelers. Example - B6 with their extra legroom. It's all fine and dandy, and I love it. But I've heard from some customers that they wish the seats were wider. Or they wish that the whole plane had the same legroom as the exit row. Or they wish that we had hot meals onboard. Or they wish that alcohol was complimentary, like they get on F class on an international carrier (I chuckle in flattery at the idea that we're compared to F class    . Another example: people love the fares they get on NK, then immediately complain about the lack of legroom, the a-la-carte pricing of their onboard products, etc.

The list goes on, and it basically sums up human nature: we're never, ever satisfied. Even when airlines offered meals, what was the complaint? Ah yes, "OMG it's airline food. How horrible!" Now that they're gone, the compaint is: "OMG, no meals?! You're trying to starve us!" Personally, I never thought airline food was all that bad. What did they want? A five-course gourmet meal on an hour-long flight? Which is it?

Just my thought on it as a whole.

[Edited 2009-06-06 10:07:25]


Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
User currently offlineFrmrCAPCADET From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4059 times:

Per my signature line: The airline business may simply be an industry which is fated to market failure. The essential problem is that those seats are worthless if they are not filled. The other and ironic truth is that the airlne business is essential to the modern economy. There are airlines which have made money, and they may point the way to a successful business model. It remains to be seen.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15836 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3993 times:



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 3):
If passengers won't pay more, then you need more passengers.

This is exactly what AA found out with their More Room Throughout Coach program. They tried giving people more room, but raised prices to compensate and found out that the public was not willing to pay them, so we go back to knee crunching pitch.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePhoenix9 From Canada, joined Aug 2007, 2546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3948 times:

Well for some airlines there is a way around....premium economy. You get more leg-room, but of course you pay more for that. However, it always puzzles me as to why it has taken so long for it to catch up? Only now some airlines have started to implement it. If I was given an option of a normal economy ticket for $200 and one with extra leg-room for $300 on a longer flight....I wouldn't mind spending that extra money.


Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
User currently offlineNASBWI From Bahamas, joined Feb 2005, 1320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3912 times:



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 8):
If I was given an option of a normal economy ticket for $200 and one with extra leg-room for $300 on a longer flight....I wouldn't mind spending that extra money.

You would, but countless others wouldn't, and it shows on emptier flights where very few (if any) of the premium seats are filled. That also leads to some trying to find their way into the premium seats, seeing that they are empty. Now, what I like about some airlines is that they charge for a guaranteed premium seat, but anyone may sit there provided that it is available (after boarding is complete). It's always uncomfortable to tell someone to vacate the seat because they didn't pay the premium, especially if the seat is in the same class of seating (i.e. not business or first class).



Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3849 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 1):
and maybe Frontier - not sure

Frontier does in a backward way. The exit rows (plus the entire front half of the plane) are blocked for the Ascent and Summit levels of their FF program and for those passengers who buy the Classic or Classic Plus level of seating. I haven't read anything indicating that a passenger who bought an Economy level ticket (which only allows for seat assignment 24 hours prior to the flight) would be refused an exit row seat if they ask. However, I'd venture to say the agents will only release those seats to an Economy passenger at the gate.

There is a silver lining to this on some flights. Economy passengers are only allowed to select seats in the back half of the plane via the kiosks and web check in (until those seats are full). If one is flying on the Q400, 18 and 19 AC have additional legroom, IMO are the best seats in the place and available to all fare levels.

Checko

[Edited 2009-06-06 13:01:23]


"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3833 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 3):
If passengers won't pay more, then you need more passengers.

Like it or not, too many coach seats are filled by internet bargain hunters. I have no issue on this when I travel for vacation. What I have an issue is when I pay full fare for a business trip and get squat due to a non-elite status. (I fly a bunch... then I won't fly for a year. sigh.)

But what I am finding is that there is a class of passengers now willing to pay for domestic first class (e.g., my grandmother). So ironically, the "crunch in coach" is finally starting to expose those passengers willing to part with more cash for more room.

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 8):
Well for some airlines there is a way around....premium economy. You get more leg-room, but of course you pay more for that. However, it always puzzles me as to why it has taken so long for it to catch up?

Too many employers, like my own, will not pay for it.  Sad
It seems that most of Y+ is filled with free upgrades anyway. (Not that its a bad thing to put the passenger paying $1,400 in a more comfy seat vs. the $300 bargain hunter.)

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 5):
Personally, I never thought airline food was all that bad.

Let's agree to disagree on this. I would rather buy a sandwich BOB or eat pre-flight.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineFrmrCAPCADET From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

It is simply false to believe that if you are willing to pay 10-20% more for a little extra real estate that seats like that are generally, or have ever been generally available. Some times, and on some routes, and some airlines.

Economy plus typically costs double or more, when I have looked, especially on international flights - where airlines reduce pitch over what they offer on domestic - i.e., BA. What I wouold like to expect is that for 15-20% more money, I could generally get 10-15% more pitch. Meantime there are a lot of optional trips I do not take.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3772 times:

Well sadly I am starting to find a flaw in the more legroom option on some carriers. They sure have good legroom, but you have to give up a window seat sometimes, due to large IFE/PTV support boxes placed under and often toward the window seat on some airlines.

And too often nowadays on long haul routes, I am always picking the last row toward a bulkhead even if its a lavatory, I want to be free to recline my seat always in economy class even during meal service. the lavatory does not bother me nearby since I am on a modern vacuum toilet equipped plane nowadays, not the blue juice ones, so they dont stink up often.



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2180 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3713 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
It seems that most of Y+ is filled with free upgrades anyway.

Exactly, and then you have all of the "elites" complaining that they don't get to sit there for free if someone actually does pay for the seat.


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3626 times:



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 3):
If passengers won't pay more, then you need more passengers.

If passengers won't pay more, maybe there's a reason??????

Counting on an ever dwindling passenger base to pay for ever increasing costs is "plane" stupid.


User currently offlineMilski From Uganda, joined Dec 2003, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3255 times:



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 8):

Welcome to Economy Plus at United.  Wink $300 something will get you extra 4-6" for all your flights during the year, or if you want want, you can pay per flight - the yearly subscription pays off after a couple of flights though. It's also free for United elites (25k miles+).


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2917 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 1):
The best way to get exit rows really is to fly enough to get elite status (most airlines - UA and CO being the two major exceptions) require you to only fly 25k miles a year to get exit rows.

I'm not an elite and I've rarely had a problem getting an exit row or bulkhead seat if I've requested it. On some Delta flights, even non-elites can book exit row seats (the most common aircraft for this is the MD-88).

I'm 6'4, and on some of Delta's aircraft that they use for high density (the domestic 767 especially), the 31" seems pretty tight but everything else is tolerable. I flew JetBlue back in January and paid the extra money for the 38" seats and those were great.


User currently offlineSCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5617 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

I know it did not work out as a business proposition, but while AA had MRTC, that difference alone caused me to favor AA over other choices, almost always for a premium of price; the premium, while significant, was not enough to dissuade me from making that choice.

Unfortunately, for passengers like me, who fly commercial too rarely to become Elite-This or Platinum-Mega-Doodle that, and simply haven't the budget to justify the plain silly fare it costs to buy front cabin (exception: AirTran - but who wants to change planes in Atlanta?), we are just stuck with uncomfortable seating.

Which is why, when I *must* fly commercial, I usually fly Southwest.

But, mostly, I fly myself, and that's always first class. No lav, though.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2571 times:



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 3):
If passengers won't pay more, then you need more passengers.

But when passengers won't pay to fly on a cramped and uncomfortable airline, you end up with no airline.

It's a relationship that needs careful attention, mostly from the airline side.


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2481 times:



Quoting NASBWI (Reply 5):
Or they wish that alcohol was complimentary, like they get on F class on an international carrier (I chuckle in flattery at the idea that we're compared to F class .

 redflag 

Hmmm try Y class, SQ offer free alcohol in Y on their shorter sectors in SE Asia, QF & NZ offer free alcohol on trans-Tasman flights, all of these are comparable sector lengths with many US domestic services.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2425 times:



Quoting Aidan5151 (Reply 2):
I just love how the airlines advertise that they are compensating for the loss of leg room by improving the lower seat cushion to function more like a movie theatre seat. It still boils down to less leg room and narrower seats and so equals even less comfort.

That's simply not true. Thinner seats increase virtual pitch, which does in fact create a more comfortable seat with more space to stretch out.

Just compare AA's 75L coach seats with AA's 757 coach seats. Both have 31" of pitch, but the sliding cushion and slim-line design on the 75L increase the virtual pitch and provides a far more comfortable product.



a.
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2410 times:



Quoting NASBWI (Reply 5):
Or they wish that alcohol was complimentary, like they get on F class on an international carrier

I never understood the obsession with some people about free alcohol in an aircraft. I don't drink that much, only when going out. So whether to fly on a certain carrier will never depend on free alcohol. I can't understand what the big deal is, so go without booze for a couple of hours, big deal.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
Let's agree to disagree on this. I would rather buy a sandwich BOB or eat pre-flight.

This varies wildly. For example, the sandwiches KLM hands out now in Y (on european flights) are not bad at all. Quite good actually. However, the sandwiches I got from LH... truly horrible, two thin sponges with a piece of rubber in the middle.
On international flights it's the same hit and miss.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5854 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2302 times:

Quoting Babybus (Reply 19):
But when passengers won't pay to fly on a cramped and uncomfortable airline, you end up with no airline.

Passengers are happy to pay to fly on a cramped and uncomfortable airline as long as the ticket prices are marginally lower.

A.netters often just don't seem to have their heads around the fact that price, regardless of service, is the major driver of ticket sales.

[Edited 2009-06-08 04:31:00]

User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

I think its unfair that legroom in Eco is the same for all. Its discriminating tall peole at least as much as not offering cosher food for jews ot vegetarian food. Charging more for a few inches more is discriminating unless legroom is found to be sufficient by official inspectors in standard eco. Airlines should be forced to offer a few rows with a few inches more legroom which should be given ONLY to people over, lets say, 6 ft. The legroom could be taken off from a few rows ONLY given to small people and children. Isnt that fair? And no airline would lose by such a rule, too!

25 Babybus : I believe necessity to travel is the motivating factor, then price. If I'm here dreaming of a holiday, that dream could be instantly quashed when I t
26 Silentbob : Necessity is no longer the primary travel factor. With teleconferencing and some of the new software collaboration tools, there is far less demand th
27 Aajfksjubklyn : This is a funny one: I was flying MCO-JFK yesterday on AA, and it was a former TWA Super 80, as was evident from the window shades indicating "McDonne
28 Gr8Circle : And if you happen to be flying Y class on an LH 744, the misery is complete.....got to be one of the most congested 744 Y class seats out there....pa
29 Kappel : Well, I'm used to flying KL's 744's in Y. IIRC they have the same legroom as LH. I'm not that tall, so I find the legroom adequate. So that would, fo
30 Enginebird : Just tried to book Eco Plus on a UA TATL flight in August and the online system as well as the phone representative say that the "pay for one flight"
31 ExFATboy : Well, no, not if the "tall people seats" cost the same...why should they get more for the same price? And airlines are private businesses (with a few
32 Enginebird : I agree with you on that one. I fly JetBlue and buy these seats whenever I get a chance, to show the industry that people are willing to pay extra fo
33 NASBWI : That may be true. However, sector notwithstanding, trans-Tasman (I'm guessing between Australia and New Zealand) is still an international flight. Be
34 ExFATboy : I believe the aircraft have all passed the evacuation standards at a fairly tight economy seat pitch, so this shouldn't be an issue...although it wou
35 Enginebird : That's very true. But more room is, of course, always better in an emergency situation. Unfortunately, forms that do not lead to immediate death and
36 Post contains links Viscount724 : TWA tried the same thing some with equally unsuccessful results. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNTL9unC7Co http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnAB506Tc
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