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United HNL-DEN On A 757-200!  
User currently offlineAirmaleJUM From United States of America, joined May 2009, 44 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11087 times:

Tomorrow UAL will be flying HNL-DEN on a 757. It is flight 42 leaving at 8:10pm and getting into DEN at 6:56am the next day. It is booked full with 24/158. They have a 2 class 767-300 as UA28 leaving an hour later for DEN. I thought all the 757s that did HNL and the other cities in Hawaii left from SFO and LAX. I guess not. I am waiting for UA to put some P.S. 757s on some of the transatlantic routes. Right now I don't know which city from Dulles a 3 class 757 would do well on. Most of UA's Europe flights are usually pretty full in the back. 72 coach seats wouldn't be enough.

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10878 times:



Quoting AirmaleJUM (Thread starter):
I thought all the 757s that did HNL and the other cities in Hawaii left from SFO and LAX.

UA operates DEN-Hawaii with the 752 pretty regularly.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9649 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10812 times:



Quoting AirmaleJUM (Thread starter):
I am waiting for UA to put some P.S. 757s on some of the transatlantic routes.

First off, PS 757s can't operate transatlantic since they are not ETOPS birds.

Second of all, 757s don't fit UA's international network. UA focuses on high capacity international markets. Unlike CO and DL which have routes to smaller markets, UA focuses on the big cities in Europe that demand bigger equipment. There are no destinations that really fit the 757 style route. Maybe some of their past German routes would have been successful with 757s, but other than that, the 767s are small enough.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10805 times:



Quoting AirmaleJUM (Thread starter):
I am waiting for UA to put some P.S. 757s on some of the transatlantic routes.

I think that there is something to do with UA's insurance that precludes them from using 757s over the Atlantic, so I think it will be unlikely. If they do, it wouldn't be the PS birds. 757s flying transatlantic flights are mostly used for offering nonstop flights to smaller destinations, rather than premium heavy flights. Any market with enough premium demand for a PS 757 would have enough demand to fill all of the cabins in a 767 or 777.

Quoting AirmaleJUM (Thread starter):
72 coach seats wouldn't be enough.

It is for OpenSkies. Their 757s are configured 24 Biz Bed (BA Club World Seats) and 40 Biz, which are like domestic First seats, but nicer.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBrick From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10804 times:

757's have been going to LIH and KOA from Denver for quite a long time now.

I don't remember the specifics, but I had a conversation with a United pilot about sending 757's to Europe. There are a lot of hurdles that have to be cleared, namely there is a lot of equipment needed that the UA 757's don't have. The gist of it from the United crew member was it's not going to happen any time soon if at all.



A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
User currently offlineAirmaleJUM From United States of America, joined May 2009, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10595 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
First off, PS 757s can't operate transatlantic since they are not ETOPS birds.

I thought they were ETOPS birds, I know for a fact they are overwater equip.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10530 times:



Quoting AirmaleJUM (Reply 5):
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
First off, PS 757s can't operate transatlantic since they are not ETOPS birds.

I thought they were ETOPS birds, I know for a fact they are overwater equip

The PS 752s are not ETOPS certified but they may have the rafts/life vest ect that an ETOPS bird would have...I'm not exactly sure.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10511 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
The PS 752s are not ETOPS certified but they may have the rafts/life vest ect that an ETOPS bird would have...I'm not exactly sure.

ETOPS and overwater are two different things. It sounds like the PS birds are overwater equipped so they can fly over water, but may not stray too far from land. ETOPS has its own set of requirements, and while most ETOPS flights are overwater, ETOPS is required to fly over some land (some parts of Siberia I think) as well.

For example, a flight to the Caribbean would require the plane to be overwater equipped (rafts, etc.) but not require ETOPS. A flight to Hawaii though, would require both overwater and ETOPS.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10484 times:

PS Birds have Life Vests meaning they can travel up to 162NM from shore. The birds that operate to Hawaii have life vests and slide/rafts and life rafts meaning they can operate more than 162 NM from land. Some domestic birds also just have flotation cushions meaning they can't operate anymore than 50NM from land.


My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8904 times:



Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 8):
Some domestic birds also just have flotation cushions meaning they can't operate anymore than 50NM from land.

Actually all of our A319/320 aircraft have the 162NM exemption from FAR121.339 in OPSECS if they are not overwater equipped. They have to stay within 30 minutes flying time on a single engine from the coast in still air. All this really does is allows a more flexible routing as well as being allowed to fly the Q-airways in the Gulf of Mexico if the plane is not overwater equipped. The 757s are limited to 50NM if they are not Overwater or ETOPS.


User currently offlineDC8Fanjet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8489 times:



Quoting AirmaleJUM (Thread starter):
I am waiting for UA to put some P.S. 757s on some of the transatlantic routes. Right now I don't know which city from Dulles a 3 class 757

You will be waiting a long time. UA has no interest in 757 transatlantic ops.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8071 times:

At close to 3,000nm, is that pushing the envelope for UA's PW2037 powered birds? I was under the impression that the PW powered 757s couldn't be certified at the 255K MTOW, so is UA taking a hit on payload to fly this route?


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7114 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 11):

Not really..... the plane can do it, just more of an ATOG restriction. LAX-BOS is even longer but those flights are always full.


User currently offlineMilski From Uganda, joined Dec 2003, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7084 times:



Quoting DC8Fanjet (Reply 10):
You will be waiting a long time. UA has no interest in 757 transatlantic ops.

And thank god for that!


User currently offlineUSFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6916 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 11):
At close to 3,000nm, is that pushing the envelope for UA's PW2037 powered birds? I was under the impression that the PW powered 757s couldn't be certified at the 255K MTOW, so is UA taking a hit on payload to fly this route?

NW's and DL's 757's which fly TATL ops are PW-powered so I'm not sure that this is true.


User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6796 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 11):
At close to 3,000nm, is that pushing the envelope for UA's PW2037 powered birds? I was under the impression that the PW powered 757s couldn't be certified at the 255K MTOW, so is UA taking a hit on payload to fly this route?


PW2037-powered 757's can certainly be certified at 255K MTOW, DL's flying quite a few 752's so equipped across the Atlantic.
In fact PW-powered 757's have a slightly longer range (around 150-200nm) than those equipped with RR's.
I believe UA's 757's are certified at 240K; DEN-HNL is around 2900nm so that may indeed be pushing its range a bit going westbound.


User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6183 times:



Quoting 747fan (Reply 15):
I believe UA's 757's are certified at 240K

Correct but that is for "perfect" conditions. Most every flight will have an ATOG/MTOG restriction applied to it for various reasons like takeoff/landing performance or Method I/II enroute dirftdown and other stuff like that.

I'm almost positive the 757 DEN-Hawaii flying goes out with some ATOG limit for Method II driftdown since you cross over mountains on your way to the pacific. Hawaii-DEN is probaly more a takeoff limit, especially out of LIH, since by the time you reach the mountains, your able to stay higher on one engine.

Sorry if I'm going over people heads but this stuff is applicable to the conversation.


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6836 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

They do LIH-DEN nonstop? Is LIH's runway still 6500 ft?

User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5776 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 17):
They do LIH-DEN nonstop? Is LIH's runway still 6500 ft?

Yes and both 3/21 and 17/35 are still 6500 feet. Up until last fall, there was at least daily 767 service to SFO as well out of LIH. I think LIH is the smallest runway our 767s can do, other then some emergency airports we have approved.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5272 times:



Quoting 747fan (Reply 15):
PW2037-powered 757's can certainly be certified at 255K MTOW, DL's flying quite a few 752's so equipped across the Atlantic.

I wasn't aware of this. I thought that the PW2037 powered 752s were only certifiable to 240K MTOW and because of this, NW runs several seats, ~15 less seats than CO/AA's RR powered birds. Interesting...



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5253 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 11):
At close to 3,000nm, is that pushing the envelope for UA's PW2037 powered birds? I was under the impression that the PW powered 757s couldn't be certified at the 255K MTOW, so is UA taking a hit on payload to fly this route?

United has a number of PW2040 powered 757s.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 15):
PW2037-powered 757's can certainly be certified at 255K MTOW, DL's flying quite a few 752's so equipped across the Atlantic.

Neg. The 255K ones have PW2040s in that case too. I am almost entirely certain.

NS


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5154 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 20):
Neg. The 255K ones have PW2040s in that case too. I am almost entirely certain.

that is incorrect. check Boeing's detailed technical data for the 757.


User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1730 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5084 times:



Quoting Brick (Reply 4):
I don't remember the specifics, but I had a conversation with a United pilot about sending 757's to Europe. There are a lot of hurdles that have to be cleared, namely there is a lot of equipment needed that the UA 757's don't have. The gist of it from the United crew member was it's not going to happen any time soon if at all.

I've heard the same thing. As RoseFlyer mentioned, UA has been able to fill the back of 767s 777s and 747s on its TATL routes, which focus on major cities with high passenger/cargo demands. If it can't fill a 767 on a regular basis (passenger, cargo or contract), you won't see UA fly there.

Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
The PS 752s are not ETOPS certified but they may have the rafts/life vest ect that an ETOPS bird would have...I'm not exactly sure.

The 757 fleet rivals the 320 fleet in terms of confusion (for me at least...)

IIRC...
They have all have life vests. There are 4 "types" of 757s in the fleet:

The regular 2037 powered birds that do domestic runs (short haul and coast-coast) (54XX)

The PS birds are the same, with a different configuration (obviously). Most of them are older 757s as well (thinking N505UA, N517UA, for example)

The ETOPS birds which fly to Hawaii (have water survival equipment: additional rafts) (ET Model)

ETOPS birds which serve Hawaii but are only equipped with 2037 engines

and, IIRC, the 2040 powered birds which are also ETOPS and have

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 14):

NW's and DL's 757's which fly TATL ops are PW-powered so I'm not sure that this is true.

I may be wrong but I think NWs 757s ops (DTW-FRA for example) take payload restrictions. DL 757 flying is out of NYC, a good 200 miles north of Washington. That makes a huge difference. UA has stated that it does not want to take payload hits at the expense of operating 757 routes. And, as was mentioned, there is a much greater demand than 72 seats in coach to UA's European destinations.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25427 posts, RR: 49
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4970 times:



Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 22):
IIRC...

Here is the latest breakdown.

50xx new leather cabin domestic (only one flying as a testbed currently)
53xx PS winglet
54xx standard domestic
55xx ETOPS
56xx Overwater
57xx PS
59xx ETOPS winglet

All are PW2037.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4882 times:

I have always been curious as to why the PW powered 757 operators didn't opt for the PW2040s to make their 757s more flexible, at least as flexible as the RR powered birds.


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
25 Gigneil : Unless they retired them, they're definitely not all PW2037. NS
26 LAXintl : I can assure you all UA B757s are PW2037 --- per the Flight Handbook.
27 DescendVia : Just saw this........ I don't know what you mean by "all" but I can assure only the ER/OW and PS 757s have actual life vests. With the ER/OW planes o
28 United1 : UA did a paper derate on their PW2040 752s they are all now PW2037s.... Thanks for the information guys....
29 LACA773 : How many more 757 will UA winglet equip?
30 United1 : 33 in total I believe, all of the ETOPS and PS birds are slated to get winglets.
31 Joeljack : Does boeing make a winglet for the 767 or 777? If so why don't airlines get these too?
32 Gigneil : That is an explanation that makes sense. NS
33 UA772IAD : I think this project was put on hold to reduce capital expenditures, though perhaps its going again?
34 LAXintl : Yes it resumed in March.
35 M11Stephen : Ok, the domestic 757's only have flotation cushions, the PS planes have life vests and the over water/etops aircraft have life vests and life rafts.
36 DescendVia : That is what I said, could have maybe worded it better but whatever.....
37 Post contains images EA772LR : They sure do for the 767: They sure don't for the 777, but I heard APB was considering winglets for the 777, and the A380.
38 UA772IAD : New model 777s (300ER and 200LR) have raked wing tips which are just as effective. Older models may not need them, it depends on the routes. Winglet
39 Gigneil : APB is definitely working on advanced wingtip modifications for the 777. NS
40 BMI727 : Boeing seems to be favoring the raked wingtips lately, including them on the 787 and P-8. This makes no sense. With the exception of the domestic run
41 UA772IAD : Probably because UA doesn't have any aircraft to spare (except for those 4 744s that I hope will one day return to service with UA... a long shot I k
42 LAXintl : United last year did indeed look at winglet 763s, however could not make the ROI business case work. Probably fortuitous considering the massive drop
43 EA772LR : Well that's not totally correct. There really is no 767 capable, with or without winglets, of doing ULH routes. Winglets could save UA a substantial
44 Gigneil : Especially seeing as ORD to Europe was entirely 767s in the previous schedule, they could certainly benefit. The thing I am most hopeful for out of th
45 EA772LR : Yeah when I think of UA, I think of a major Pacific presence. They could certainly benefit with a more efficient long range fleet. Which ever way the
46 EA772LR : Nevermind, I didn't finish reading all of LAXintl's response
47 BMI727 : I think that you might be on to something there. The retrofit was not certified until last December I believe. I can understand that UA might not wan
48 LAXintl : Maybe so, but regardless the retrofit did not produce the strong enough ROI business case for United last year for it to proceed. Nothing really to b
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