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AF A332 Missing (F-GZCP) - Part 13  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 509 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 61594 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

This is part 13 regarding the disappearance of AF flight 447, continuing from the previous thread:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4437724/

As requested before:

We understand that media reports are often littered with errors, especially regarding technical areas of aviation. While it may be worth pointing these out, please avoid having the discussion focus on these points - these will be considered off-topic contributions.

Please also remember that it will be likely that the media will be checking this thread; please try to make sure that your posts are conducive to a constructive discussion and are based on facts. Please try to steer away from wild speculation.

As ever, the forum rules apply; remember to focus on the topic in-hand and not other users.

Regards,

The Forum Moderators.


Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
283 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCartenz From Indonesia, joined May 2007, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 61374 times:

Just read CNN.com and the ticker showed that they found three more bodies.

User currently offlineRonmacIAH From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 61323 times:

Media outlets on Sunday at 9:15a (US Central Time) reporting that 3 more bodies have been found with no identification or other items.

AP News also reports two other seats and other materials with Air France markings have been observed from the air.

http://www.apnews.com/ap/db_6776/con...contentguid=qKMgPTk5&detailindex=0

[Edited 2009-06-07 07:26:05]

[Edited 2009-06-07 07:29:10]


hey, lets be careful out there
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 61092 times:

In addition to the 3 more bodies, they have now found an "undetermined" number of bodies.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090607/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane_179



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineSpeedBirdA380 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 539 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 60695 times:

Im not usually one to specualte but seeing as everyone else is.......

Here is my theory:

The aircraft encountered severe turbulence which may have ruptered an electrical wire (the wire casing may have already been partially eroded or it was a one in a million freak occurance.) Perhaps the supposed lightning strike could have also played a role.The sparks then ignited a small fire and may possibly have caused the various maintenance messages sent out by the aircraft.

The small fire quickly spread until it reached a fuel tank or oxygen tank? upon which it ignited and exploded causing the aircraft to break up in mid air. (Other pilots reported seeing bright flashes in the sky.)


User currently offlineTrystero From Portugal, joined Oct 2008, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 60118 times:

Maybe I haven't explained my point correctly. In the last thread I brought up the radar coverage, but maybe I should have expanded my thought to other kind of contact between the aircraft and some ATC or any other support system. I really thought the North Atlantic routes were covered, but don´t they have a trustworthy radio contact all the time? From what I understood in previous posts, in the area of the crash you only have HF contact which seems to be very difficult to use. Is this right? I'm don't know much about this but I had a couple of friends who were CB fans in the good old days and sometimes, with amateur equipment, they communicate with USA and even Venezuela, but maybe I am being mislead by the apparent easiness of contact that the Internet brought to the world. Feel free to bash me...

[Edited 2009-06-07 08:01:58]


Of course I love you. Now get me a beer.
User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 60155 times:



Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 3):
In addition to the 3 more bodies, they have now found an "undetermined" number of bodies.

Official release by FAB http://translate.google.ee/translate...%3D3137&sl=pt&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Quote:
INFORMATION ON SEARCHES OF THE AIR FRANCE FLIGHT 447

Command and the Navy Command of the Air report that, after intense activity night, three more bodies were found this morning by Caboclo corvette, and are being transferred to the Frigate Constitution. Thus, the five bodies in the Constitution shall come to Fernando de Noronha this Monday. Other bodies have been sighted by ships and should be collected in the coming hours.

The actions of search and rescue will remain concentrated in places where the bodies were located. However, the R-99 aircraft conducting sweeps in the region continues to identify new sources of debris.

The weather forecast for this Sunday in search of the entire region is unfavorable for the fulfillment of the missions of the aircraft, due to the reduction of visibility and weather formations.

In addition to the five ships of the Navy of Brazil that are in the region, the search will run from today with the French Navy Frigate Ventus.

The two French aircraft (Falcon 50 and Atlantic Rescue D) are working intensively with the missions of search.

Currently, 14 aircraft (12 Brazilian and two French) and five ships of the Brazilian Navy participated in the operation.



User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 59864 times:

Quoting Trystero (Reply 7):
Maybe I haven't explained my point correctly. In the last thread I brought up the radar coverage, but maybe I should have expanded my thought to other kind of contact between the aircraft and some ATC or any other support system. I really thought the North Atlantic routes were covered, but don´t they have a trustworthy radio contact all the time? From what I understood in previous posts in the area of the crash you only have HF contact which seems to be very difficult to use. Is this right? I'm don't know about areas, I had a couple of friends who were CB fans in the good old days and sometimes with amateur equipment they communicate with USA and even Venezuela, but I am being mislead by the apparent easiness of contact that the Internet brought to the world. Feel free to bash me...

HF is used in North Atlantic as well: http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=hf

VHF doesn't propagate as far.

All Oceanic passenger flights also have SATCOM (at least very slow ACARS, voice is rare).

So it's not about availability of comms, it's about whether the crew has time to use it.

[Edited 2009-06-07 08:08:08]

User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 59340 times:

What is this white thing under the water surface?

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fo...-43158-9.html#backToArticle=629034

(see pic. 8&10 in this series)

Is it the entire left wing?

Best Regards

Tom



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21508 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58917 times:



Quoting Trystero (Reply 5):
I really thought the North Atlantic routes were covered, but don´t they have a trustworthy radio contact all the time? From what I understood in previous posts, in the area of the crash you only have HF contact which seems to be very difficult to use. Is this right?

There is a difference between radio coverage and radar coverage. The North Atlantic does have radio coverage (by HF), but no radar coverage due to the simple fact that radar is line-of-sight only. HF is nowhere near as good as VHF (which is also line-of-sight), but it is useable most of the time. The alternative is to have a satellite datalink, called SATCOM. If you had the bandwidth, you could use it for voice, but that's massively expensive, and since you rarely have to talk on the radio over the ocean anyway, it's much more cost effective to use it to send text messages to ATC (via something called CPDLC) and to the company via ACARS.

SATCOM is the future, and most major carriers have it, but implementation is not 100%, and I doubt it will be for some time - the equipment is expensive, and operators who only fly over the oceans every so often can't justify the expense.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirbusA370 From Germany, joined Dec 2008, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58943 times:

No, smoke from a position marker (these burning and smoking thingies, don't know the exact english term)

User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3353 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58931 times:



Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 8):
Is it the entire left wing?

Absolutley not. Whatever it is, it is smaller then the boat next to it. Barely 3 metres I´d guess.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineWexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58936 times:

I have to admit I was beginning to think that they may not find any bodies of debris at all. Guess I should have had a little more faith in the search crews. Glad to hear they have found bodies. It is one step closer to finding out what happened and may allow those who have lost loved ones to get some sort of closure.


Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offlinePhen From Ireland, joined Oct 2007, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58856 times:

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 8):
What is this white thing under the water surface?

Hmmm I don't think that is underwater - to me it seems to be some kind of smoke - perhaps from some kind of marker buoy?

EDIT: question already answered. Apologies.

[Edited 2009-06-07 08:29:32]

User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58762 times:



Quoting AirbusA370 (Reply 10):
smoke from a position marker



Quoting Phen (Reply 13):
some kind of smoke

Now that you say it, it becomes clear to me too!

Thank you very much.

Regards

Tom



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58597 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PhB95 (Reply 235):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 226):
So attitude has nothing to do with communications.
There is no antenna to point at anything. It's all solid state.

First right, then wrong. It must have an antenna, whatever it is, but there are omnidirectionnal antennas, which are for sure used here.

Badly worded from my part : there is a solid state antenna and it doesn't need to be pointed at the satellite.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 227):
They are not omindirectional, in fact even a banked turn can cause interruption of satellite communications.

Naver happened to me.
For those interested, this is a well-known example of one such antenna, with its specifications :
CMC high gain SatCom antenna

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 255):
Am I correct in assuming that the list of ACARS messages appearing in several of the posts is only a list of summaries or message headers, enabling a maintenance operator to select what he/she wants to look at in more details.

Yes, you are.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 255):
Who released the summaries? the BEA?
Has anybody asked whether and when "they" might release the remainder of the data, if such additional data does exist?

It was apparently a leak.
That shouldn't happen any more as there is now an official law officer in charge of supervising the investigation and any further leak could lead to prosecution.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineWexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58566 times:



Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 8):



Quoting AirbusA370 (Reply 10):



Quoting Phen (Reply 13):

Do you mean the small white thing smaller than the boat or the smoke marker stretching across the photo??



Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58482 times:



Quoting Borism (Reply 9):
VHF doesn't propagate as far.

Not relevant with the topic at hand, but yes it does, even much much farther.
VHF and UHF are used to communicate with space crews.
Amateur radios (with appropriate rig) even listen to their own transmissions reflected back by the moon.
Signals from space, and some come from many millions of km, are even using much higher frequencies in the SHF and EHF bands.

HF radio waves are reflected by ionospheric layers, three (sometimes four) slices of ionized particles situated at roughly 100 to 400km above earth.
Depending on many factors (solar cycle, season, time, etc...) HF signals reaching one of those layers (whom present different behaviours according to the wavelength of the signal) can be either reflected back to earth (it's called a hop) or they simply dissipate inside the layer.
A single hop can cover abt 4,000km, links over longer distances need multiple hops...the signal bounces several times off the layers and off the earth.


User currently offlineBluemoonUK From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2000, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 58388 times:

Thats a flare,no wing under the surface in those pictures.
Bluemoon


User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 57635 times:



Quoting Iakobos (Reply 17):
Not relevant with the topic at hand, but yes it does, even much much farther.
VHF and UHF are used to communicate with space crews.
Amateur radios (with appropriate rig) even listen to their own transmissions reflected back by the moon.
Signals from space, and some come from many millions of km, are even using much higher frequencies in the SHF and EHF bands.

We are talking about over-horizon over-ocean aircraft-ground communication here. Obviously VHF is useless for that, otherwise it would have been used instead of bad quality HF or expensive SATCOM? Very offtopic indeed.


User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4895 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 57006 times:



Quoting Iakobos (Reply 17):
Quoting Borism (Reply 9):
VHF doesn't propagate as far.

Not relevant with the topic at hand, but yes it does, even much much farther.

Thanks Iakobos for clearing that up, you certainly know your Comm! VHF is LOS because it doesn't get refracted by the ionosphere. If I remember right there was also an issue with the dipole moment of water molecules resonating with UHF transmission frequency.

Long long ago my senior EE project was designing a Yagi-Uda array...  Smile


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 56959 times:

Brazilian officials also said they will not report on the specifics of any objects found and bodies because of the incident yesterday in which a media vehicle (ie Le Figaro) stated that one of the bodies was attached to the seat. Because of frensy and uncontrolled media activity from now onwards specificity of objects found and bodies will only be reported to relatives of the victims.

This seems a very appropriate approach and it will bar the media from spreading absurd reports.

Today also the Vice-Consul of France paid a courtesy visit to CINDACTA III which is serving of base of the Brazilian operations and deeply thanked the Brazilian authorities for their huge effort.

Also on Sunday all foreign press was invited to a detailed debriefing on the operations. Yesterday foreign journalist (who are piling up in REC in front of CINDACTA III building) complained that only Brazilian journalists were invited for the debriefing and presentation of Brazil R-99 aircraft.

Rgs,


User currently offlineDAL763ER From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 56947 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting SpeedBirdA380 (Reply 4):
The aircraft encountered severe turbulence which may have ruptered an electrical wire (the wire casing may have already been partially eroded or it was a one in a million freak occurance.) Perhaps the supposed lightning strike could have also played a role.The sparks then ignited a small fire and may possibly have caused the various maintenance messages sent out by the aircraft.

The small fire quickly spread until it reached a fuel tank or oxygen tank? upon which it ignited and exploded causing the aircraft to break up in mid air. (Other pilots reported seeing bright flashes in the sky.)

Had the a/c exploded, they wouldn't have found any bodies, would they?



Where aviation is not the side show, it's the main show!!!
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4687 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 56683 times:
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Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 22):
Had the a/c exploded, they wouldn't have found any bodies, would they?

it would have t o be an incredibly massive explosion to make ALL the bodies disintegrate, an explosion capable of making the aircraft fall out of the air does not have to incinerate or tear everybody on board into shreds.
bodies were recovered from the CI 747 which "disintegrated" in the air


User currently offlinePhB95 From France, joined May 2009, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 55938 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 15):
For those interested, this is a well-known example of one such antenna, with its specifications :
CMC high gain SatCom antenna

Thanks for the interesting link. So it is actually a static antenna array which self tunes (via its control unit) to get 12 to 17dB gain in the right direction. I should have known as we do the very same trick in HF (of course it's much bigger and could'nt be mounted on an aircraft).



from Philippe near Paris
25 BackSeater : Thank you. I hope nobody gets prosecuted for allowing interested people to look at some of the raw ACARS data. I can quite understand not releasing C
26 David L : Further to the excellent summary of the pros and cons of HF and VHF by Iakobos... That would also have been on HF, otherwise known as Short Wave.
27 FlySSC : Bodies were also recovered after Pan AM 103 or UTA 772 disasters
28 Nibog : Short wave yes,as I often spoke to fellow c.b.ers from South Carolina,Canada, and as far east as Germany,Austria and Switzerland,all from Ireland. Re
29 Iakobos : VHF could be used (and is sometimes) in satellite communications. Only a tight bandplanning with respect to rather extensive bandwidth requirements ma
30 FlySSC : AF operations are not affected after the lost of F-GZCP. Like most Airlines, AF had cut several frequencies on its network becaue of the world crisis
31 Iakobos : This is not an antenna used for AERO-L ACARS but developed for Inmarsat's BGAN (broadband global area network) based systems running on their 4th gen
32 B707forever : At the beginning of this tragedy I asked a question I still don't understand.Why did it take so long for this to be reported publicly? What does it me
33 Vfw614 : Apparently search is now focused on an area 70km north of the point from which the last transmission had been made. Would be interesting to know how m
34 F9Animal : Has there been any reports on the conditions of the bodies recovered? It would be interesting to know. No disrespect either, just an honest, curious q
35 HawkerCamm : Could be a composite/honeycomb panel from wing, gear doors, or somewhere else! Composite honeycomb panels are probably the only structural that'll fl
36 Nomadd22 : I never figure out where people get the "Massively expensive junk from" There are low gain Inmarsat antennas for a few hundred bucks, Iridium units yo
37 Hardiwv : But do not forget that AF continues to operate its daily CDG-GIG B747 in addition to the A330. Rgs,
38 Post contains links Sniffmom : For those of you interested in images, the Brazilian Air Force has put up a couple of new ones on their site. One of them is a close-up of a piece of
39 ZANL188 : I heard the first news reports shortly after it was due to arrive in Paris. Given that this was a long over water voyage and the appropriate parties
40 Post contains links and images Hardiwv : This is one of the objects retrieved by the Brazilian Air Force today, more pictures and videos available on their website. Source www.fab.mil.br
41 Post contains links Trigged : http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/FOTOS/070609/foto_2.JPG I would say that this photo would confirm to anyone with a doubt that this is from the air
42 PhB95 : No, you miss something : What you describe would handle problemless the data/voice flow from one plane. Now, if it would have to handle all planes in
43 PhB95 : In Paris, the fact that a plane was missing was known in the morning, around 10am local time. This is more than an hour before the scheduled arrival
44 Nomadd22 : I didn't mean for Iridium to handle everything, mainly polar flights. But, I probably should have said "At need" instead of "constant" I do remember
45 Post contains images LH648 : What is this? Part of the crew rest container? Does AF use them? What is that yellow stuff? Looks like some lubricant?
46 ZANL188 : Was F-GZCP equipped with one of those belly compartment "Crew Rest" Containers?
47 Mir : Could be some sort of insulation. -Mir
48 L1011Lover : That's what it says... CREW REST... GIG-CDG has a scheduled flight time of almost 11 hours, right? So I'm pretty sure F-GZCP had the mobile crew rest
49 Pihero : As usual, the conspiracy theories were bound to come out...plus the not unexpected Airbus and French bashing. So let's put, without comment, things ba
50 Philhyde : I would guess adhesive.
51 GDB : I've not been trawling through these massive threads, but I'd like to express my condolences to the AF staffers on here, such as FlySSC, for this loss
52 Post contains links Cosmofly : http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/FOTOS/070609/foto_5.JPG The photo seems to show some fluid is still sipping from the wreckage into the sea. One of
53 Skydrol : So these comments (quoted from NBC news video feedback) are about this "pitot conspiracy":
54 David L : They certainly contain the classic "evil corporations" conspiracy-speak that you often find on fringe sites.
55 LH648 : Guy to the left seems to be to relaxed for something terrible. I think he just scratches his nose.
56 Post contains links and images Skydrol : Next thing we will read from those who believe this is a big conspiracy cover-up, is that the Air France name is "conveniently" intact on the section
57 Post contains links BOACVC10 : Could someone translate into English the remarks on this Search/Rescue Map visible at Brasilian Airforce Website which is from the same group of photo
58 N14AZ : What a pitty that AF just revised their livery. Surely they would have considered this proposal of that nice gentleman by adding this slogan undernea
59 Hardiwv : As mentioned, GIG-CDG is over 11h and therefore has crew rest area compartment. Very sad photo. The yellow must be isolation of lubricant, not sure.
60 JFernandez : Is it too early to draw any conclusions from the fact that we don't seem to see any burn marks on these pieces of wreckage found so far?
61 Ikramerica : The only part of that I agree with is that it seems that from very early on, officials at all levels have been preparing the public that the boxes wo
62 Dougbr2006 : Adhesive with traces of insulation
63 Beta : I want to compliment the Brazilian emergency services for conducting prompt, thorough and professional search and recovery efforts in very difficult c
64 David L : In addition, are we to believe the Brazilian agencies and the NTSB are complicit?
65 Hardiwv : I think we all agree with you. They all deserve our full compliment for their immense effort, commitment and dedication round-the-clock. They have sh
66 DCA2011 : Probably not. With blast damage, sometimes the impulse forces the material to break up so fast that you don't see much thermal damage. It is obvious
67 Post contains links and images ZANL188 : Another example of the crew rest module.... View Large View MediumPhoto © Sven van der Mespel
68 David L : I would say that not only is it too early to tell but it's also difficult to draw a conclusion from a small amount of material. I'm still inclined no
69 Robffm2 : How do you get inside?
70 Comorin : If you go to Google Translate, and drag the 'English' button to your toolbar, it will automatically translate pages in most languages to English auto
71 Post contains links and images FlyinTLow : On the A340-600 you get inside through the lower kitchen / lavatory deck. View Large View MediumPhoto © Mario Aurich - AirTeamImages On the A340
72 FCA767 : " target=_blank>http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/in...oo447 Does that say "Crew Rest"?
73 BOACVC10 : I am already familiar with Google translate. Thanks for the tip about the English button. However the link I gave was a MAP, (image), that had design
74 Post contains links BOACVC10 : I just realised the map is part of a Powerpoint (Portuguese) available HERE concerning the search area with co-ordinates in CINCDACTA III
75 Speedbird128 : Because they *are* actually hard to find if they exceed the time limit of the locator beacons. If i recall our efforts to locate the Helderburg SA B7
76 Post contains images Gulfstream650 : Not really, if you take this photo as an example:
77 Hardiwv : I cannot translate the whole map otherwise it would take me a long time. At the bottom of the map is says "Planning Map of SAR operation signed by cr
78 FlySSC : ALL Air France long haul aircraft (A332/A343/B777/B744) are equipped with a "Crew Rest". The A332/A343 are all equipped with what is called a LDMCR (
79 Rj777 : Now that the wreckage (and bodies) has been positively ID'd, I think the title of the thread should be changed to AF Crash (F-GZCP)- Part 13 (and so o
80 Phoenix9 : I apologize if this has been discussed before....I mentioned this in one of the earlier threads but did not get a response. I am no expert on this and
81 Iakobos : Technically there is no problem as far as equipment technology is concerned, it becomes a problem at the space platforms' side. Financially that is a
82 Boeing747_600 : What do you mean? THey found bodies from PA-103, AI-182 and TW-800 didnt they?
83 Zeke : If I recall correctly it was around 1997/1998 on the A330. The only "new" feature I can recall we have had is to do with the speed tape started last
84 Hardiwv : Recent news came out that a French ship has retrieved another body from the ocean this brings the total bodies to 6. Brazil Air Force mentioned that s
85 PPVRA : Its just signatures of the crew that used that map. I don't know why they signed it. One guy left a quote "so that others may live". No, for "good ta
86 Zeke : Many technical reasons why this is still the case today, not only from the aircraft, also from ATC end, and atmospheric interference. Just because yo
87 DocLightning : You want them to be sobbing and in the throes of grief and shock for days on end? Guess what, many of us work in jobs where we deal with the terrible
88 BOACVC10 : I was curious however on the remarks on the map grid positions/search areas, and not the hand written comments.
89 DAL763ER : Sorry, I am not quite aware of the situations of the three aforementioned flights.
90 David L : I think that post came about because someone thought the guy with his hand to his face might be upset about something. LH648 only pointed out that th
91 Alhena : This is my first post here after some years of very interested lurking. I hope I get the posting right... The map seems to be a more detailed version
92 BOACVC10 : That's exactly what I wanted to know, and thanks for your informative 1st post on a.net! BOACVC10
93 Osiris30 : Zeke, while what you say is certainly true, I *think* the posters intent was that it *shouldn't* be that way today. You fly the 330 if I'm not mistak
94 PPVRA : In addition, the long yellow box says Frigate "Constitution". Where it says "SAR 6761", the rest of the statement says "Electronic Search Route XXXXX
95 N31029 : Welcome to a.net, Alhena. Though there are many more learned than I on the subject of an aircraft's mechanical nature, I would like to take a moment
96 Ellehammer09 : The black stuff appearing in the water are reflections of the rescue vessel/crew - if you wonder why there's a lack of colors in the reflection, it's
97 Post contains links Alhena : Main news sources in Brazil now telling that 17 bodies have been retrieved, 8 by french frigate "Ventose". Brazilian frigate "Constituicao" will arriv
98 Borism : It wouldn't have made any difference to the AF447 pax and crew or SAR teams if cabin had always on text/voice/video/whatever contact with the ground.
99 Khobar : The poster was correct - there is no technical reason why an aircraft should be out of contact. We've had the technology now for decades. You are des
100 Osiris30 : Maybe you can help me by pointing out where i said it would have made a difference to the outcome of this incident? There will be other indicents, an
101 JAAlbert : So if these Pitot tubes (sp?) are subject to icing over, why is this not a problem on all aircraft? Do Boeing and the other Jet manufacturers and/or n
102 LZ-TLT : The bottom line is - would it save lives? Would it help to get a better understanding of something inexplicable with what is available now? Unless th
103 Giopan1975 : So its almost certain that the cause of the accident has to do with unreliable pitot tubes and AF delaying to pay for changing them because of usual e
104 PPVRA : And more sighted, as per my sources.
105 Trystero : A little change. Many people here complain about the press, and with frequently with solid reasons. But we don't see much the view of the other side,
106 F9Animal : What do these look like inside? Is there power connected for lights by chance? I totally understand. I would think that if the bodies are pretty inta
107 Post contains links BOACVC10 : Hi, As this news article is very informative, I used Google translate from Portuguese to English and am providing verbatim copy for the benefit of int
108 Borism : Well, unlikely, cause that bizjet probably didn't have the Mode-S transponder or even if it did it was probably off. However it would have helped in
109 Alhena : Do you mean RG 254 in 1989, where the pilot flew crs 270 instead of 027? There was no radar coverage of the area at the time, but there is now.
110 By188b : Nothing is certain and nothing is confirmed, its all speculation
111 David L : I don't think it is "almost certain". There is some suspicion that it may have played a part. Recent posts above would suggest that AF began replacin
112 UALWN : Did you read post #49 by Pihero?
113 Starlionblue : I know it has been said but I will chime in and say that nothing is certain. A pitot tube issue is only one of many current hypotheses. It maybe this
114 Summa767 : For what I understand, AF was pro-active in starting the roll out of replacement of these sensors 2 months ago, when Airbus did not even feel that th
115 Pilotaydin : Don't all get too tied up with the pitot change thing...i've been reading for a while now, if in fact the pitots did freeze over, whatever they flew i
116 Post contains links Zeke : As far as I am aware, the aircraft was logged on with ATC datalink, and also as far as I am aware, the AF been in contact with the aircraft via voice
117 Osiris30 : Actually I was referring to the ( GOL I think) collision of a year or two ago the one where the two AC collided. My understanding is the area where t
118 Post contains links Alhena : Diagram of vessel positions and aircraft remains. Comes from FAB (Brazilian airforce, but can't find it on their site). Remains are 70km north of poin
119 NAV20 : Just heard a live radio report from a BBC guy in Recife. 17 bodies so far recovered; 4 male, 4 female, the others 'sex not yet determined' (which, sad
120 Post contains links StasisLAX : The Associated Press has just reported the following sad news: "Search ships methodically worked through a "sea of debris" from a doomed Air France je
121 Nomadd22 : Because I have a handheld device that will do that with a 3db omnidirectional antenna doesn't mean the a high gain mounted antenna would do it? I mak
122 Post contains links AT777 : Not sure if it's been posted, but it looks like good news in finding the black boxes. Hopefully they will help out! Not sure if any are already being
123 NAV20 : Thanks Zeke - I wonder if that was introduced after that Qantas upset, the pilots in that case said that maintaining attitude was difficult after the
124 Alhena : I see. There was a lot of speculation at the time about possible inadequate radar coverage with FAB trying to cover it up. From what I understood in
125 Gulfstream650 : I expect that many Navys that would have the technology to track these boxes would reveal their capabilities with reservation - I'm sure many would l
126 L1011Lover : Oh my god... 45 miles from the point where flight AF447 sent out the automated messages??? I still can't believe this!!! Why in the world took it 5 d
127 BOACVC10 : Hi, I have also thought in the same vein as you have, my field experience is from the VSAT satellite industry and many field deployments. However, be
128 Wexfordflyer : I agree with you here. I hope it was as quick and painfree as possible. I would wonder though whether it was ever really going to be a possibility to
129 Post contains links Pdoucy : Quick technical question about something I just read in the New York Times : http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/08/world/americas/08plane.html?hp How can
130 Nomadd22 : If you want your transponder to work all the way down, the range is even less. Like people have said, none of the satellite systems now are set up fo
131 L1011Lover : You're absolutely right about that. Like I said before, I'm not suggesting anybody might have survived... however the terror, the horror, the pain of
132 Nomadd22 : I noticed that the rudder limit signal was a fault, which usually means broken/shorted wires or a bad sensor. The rudder indicators I take care of are
133 FlyinTLow : Just a question that is popping to my head: Have any of the passengers been found with life vests on? If so, this does indicate that the passengers ha
134 EvilNando : " target=_blank>http://aviation-safety.net/database/...=ACIP Thank you that was very informative, and the answer I was looking for in the post I made
135 Wexfordflyer : You are right, for the friends and families it would have been much easier had they been found sooner. I guess because I have very little technical k
136 Post contains links and images Pihero : Very funny ! That's the antenna that equips the AF fleet, as this pic confirms : View Large View MediumPhoto © Fabio Ferioli - Spot IT to be com
137 Pilotaydin : sorry but i do not agree with you at all.....first off, there is no timeline to find the remains...it happened as quick as possible, and next, you ar
138 Post contains links and images Pihero : It's late and I felt restless and depressed. So I went to the photo data base as I was quite sure I'd find some pictures of her to remind me that she
139 Nomadd22 : BGAN is handy. It works with handheldsand small, low gain antennas. But it still won't do much good more than 70 degrees from the equator. It's great
140 Pilotaydin : I too join you in salute captain... Cabin crew - Advised Auto thrust - SPD Ecam Memo - Land NO blue sounds i wish i could hear on the cvr.... take a
141 Gonzalo : Although i think we all share the sadness and bad mood for this tragedy, you can't forget the circumstances of the search and rescue efforts. They're
142 Khobar : Could indicate a lot of things - including the loss of rudder due to overstress. With respect, Zeke, I might rely on your opinion on matters related
143 NAV20 : Must admit that I don't think the discussion on radio/satellites etc. gets us far....... The 'most probable' scenario is now that the aeroplane came d
144 Osiris30 : Missing the point where the system would just send that data itself anyway when they are out of radar range.
145 Mandala499 : Funnily enough, BGAN has only been made available in some parts of the world over the past 12 months. Iridium would work just fine? Well, dunno about
146 Jeffbart33 : I have been wondering off and on while reading this thread so far if any other airlines have replaced the pitot tubes or are waiting on a directive?
147 Nomadd22 : Not that media articles are ever wrong, but the one I saw said the pinger put out a 160 db signal. That's pretty much a sonar transmitter and could b
148 Gonzalo : That's the point some people is missing here. When the wreckage is over solid terrain, stays there. When the wreckage is at the bottom of the sea, it
149 Post contains links BMIFlyer : The total number of bodies recovered is now.... 17 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8087991.stm Lee
150 NAV20 : Maybe John Donne put it best, way back in 1624:- "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If
151 Jeffbart33 : You are right, and if the location is pin pointed, they will be retrieved, but not any time soon.
152 Post contains links and images KingFriday013 : From the original thread: I think we all need to stop and take a step back and put this all into perspective. This is the post that literally several
153 StasisLAX : And I, along with many many others, join you in this wish.
154 2175301 : Keep in mind that the debris field has been drifting in the Sea for about 6 days now. The debris field could easily have moved 100 miles a day - or 6
155 Bridge : Aren't there separate pitot tubes for captain, FO & standby instruments on most modern airliners? Wouldn't there be some kind of major disagree betwee
156 Pilotaydin : I've been a commercial pilot for about a decade now, and allow me to say that there is a lot more progress made than you think... The remains of the
157 Pilotaydin : I've been a commercial pilot for about a decade now, and allow me to say that there is a lot more progress made than you think... The remains of the
158 BOACVC10 : But could they have done so, if they were incapacitated or somehow the cockpit systems were not attached to the aircraft ?
159 Mir : Unlikely. The number of updates required to provide radar-like separation would be cost-prohibitive. No it isn't. Please don't propagate these sort o
160 Starlionblue : Correct. The only 330/340 fatalities were that test flight and AF 447. For that matter, the 447 crash is the only event with in-service fatalities of
161 NAV20 : That's the $64,000 question, BOACVC10 - which none of us can answer. We will likely never know the answer for certain, unless the FDR and CVR are rec
162 Rj777 : And 211 to go..... I have to admit, I'm getting very optimistic that at least half of the victims will be recovered.
163 Astuteman : Always There is no evidence that AF have delayed anything with regards to changing pitot tubes. In fact I'd suggest the evidence is to the contrary..
164 Vfw614 : With all the media bashing going on here and elsewhere, one thing I find quite noteworthy is that the cockpit crew has not been subject of any media r
165 Speedbird128 : I haven't read every reply since your latest question, but I use ADS-B, and from an ATC perspective: There is a lot of extrapolation on ADS still, in
166 Airbus767 : Or that the red bar/dash is missing under "AIR FRANCE" Sometimes that sort of thing gets out of hand, and unfortunately, as time passes the worse it
167 OzGlobal : Not sure what media you're following, but in the French media, as well as on CNN, BBC World and the NY Times, there has been repeated reference to th
168 Wjcandee : They certainly could have. Remember that it doesn't take a gigantic, vaporizing fireball of an explosion like in the movies to bring down an airliner
169 TristarSteve : They have reported many bodies found, some of indeterminate gender. Before you start asking about lifejackets, find out the definition of body. I was
170 Borism : No need to get too gruesome, they reportedly were able to identify sex of half of the "bodies". Reports have said that water was some 20-30 degrees w
171 Speedbird128 : ADS on aircraft has Position Autoreporting. This will automatically send me a message via ADS that they have crossed a waypoint. If for some reason a
172 Vfw614 : I did not mean this basic information (which usually comes along with the list of passengers once it is released), but sensationalist "human interest
173 FCA767 : I just wanted to repost as I got no reply from part 12 and I thought this was an important quetion: I've been thinking about this...If Airbus (Who I
174 Cricket : The only hope I have about the black boxes is because of the search for the AI 182 boxes. Granted, it was in a slightly more decent depth and the seaf
175 ThrottleHold : You've got no reply because anyone who knows A330 systems wouldn't know where to start explaining how wrong and wide of the mark your understanding o
176 Jerblaine : I am obsessed with this crash right now. If they lost electricals AND cabin pressure at 35K ft. wouldnt all aboard die almost instantly from no oxygen
177 LH526 : I think such specualtions and in depth views are more common in the US and are highly protected under european press law .. here in germany at least.
178 FCA767 : But it's simply done by a button that could turn off the protection...i mean fuel can be cut off by the pilot without the computer saying no
179 Akhristov : ...should I say anything?
180 Khobar : You presume the crash was caused by pitot tubes. Certainly it can happen, and it may have happened, but I dare say if someone asked if I was willing
181 Ogre727 : PLEASE
182 Akhristov : I think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now and assume he just phrased the sentence incorrectly.
183 NAV20 : Jerblaine, the cabin pressure warning came up only at the literal last minute - It was timed at 02.14 Zulu, and was the last message received before
184 ThrottleHold : Why would you want the protections turned off? If something faults that has an input to the envelope protection, the aircraft automatically defaults
185 Post contains links MadameConcorde : I don't know what to make of this. Following the threat at EZEIZA... could this fact be purely coincidental? I will let you take a look at the full ar
186 Pellegrine : Thank you for your posts, I share a lot of your sentiments. It's 2009 satellite coms are not as expensive as they used to be. I remember when people
187 FCA767 : Yep I definitly Read about the Laws here and on pprune but didn't someone say that if the Pitot Freezes that the computer will just believe it's stal
188 Ellehammer09 : It's actually a little strange.. I don't want to raise any kind of suspicion, so I'm quite sure that the officials handling the information have lear
189 Starlionblue : Hmmm. Nuclear power plants? Neatly answered with: To expand on that, going to a "lower" law introduces more problems than it solves
190 Ellehammer09 : Well I will.. Can't help it - and wouldn't.. Stick to gore-site if that's what gives you a kick. What makes this forum a gift, is the high standard o
191 Astuteman : That's the nearest example I can think of (and conveniently my current day job, but hey, what would I know? ), but my perception is that the overall
192 BackSeater : Regarding costs, airport taxes are usually a significant portion of any passenger ticket. We all pay then because we have no other choice but I often
193 Part147 : Well said! Overlooked???? 228 people died in this tragedy and the families have yet to get the 'answers' they seek for their lost loved ones. So mayb
194 MadameConcorde : I am not the one who wrote the article neither am I into conspiracy of any kind. I just provided the link because of the obvious coincidence.
195 Part147 : Fair enough... I didn't mean to come across as accusing you of anything like that... I didn't read the article you linked (because there are so many
196 2175301 : I too work in Nuclear Power. There are three key differences: 1) A nuclear plant has ample room to install multiple redundant systems - and often mul
197 FlySSC : Here is the entire Air France communication (in French) to the press concerning the speed sensor subject : A la suite d’interrogations multiples app
198 NAV20 : Something we haven't discussed yet. The fourth ACARS message - right at the beginning - keeps going round and round in my mind. 'Rudder Travel Limiter
199 FlyinTLow : Every Airbus pilot normally knows that when the aircraft starts doing something with its computers that is beyond understanding for the pilots and wh
200 ComeAndGo : AFAIK the iridium satellite phone charge was based on $3/min . Before iridium satellite phone charges were $10/min .
201 ThrottleHold : I've already explained in an earlier post how and why this appears. This message is a direct result of the loss of airspeed input to the RTL system d
202 ComeAndGo : Malaysia Airlines had all tubes replaced by last September. So, no AF did drag its feet. There's a lot of conflicting information around. Some partie
203 NAV20 : I'm glad it's so easily explainable, ThrottleHold. Can you please explain the OTHER 23 error messages in equally simple terms, so that we can all be
204 ThrottleHold : It is when you understand the systems and there relationships with each other. No, because some posters don't want to listen to the people here with
205 Theredbaron : Ill say it again because quite frankly the post on part 10 were ignored. There is a perfect explanation for the causes of this tragedy here: it was po
206 David L : I don't think anybody has even implied that the other 23 messages had "absolutely nothing" to do with the accident.
207 FCA767 : Thanks...it's still bugging me that I can't get the Automation out of my head...would the plane have gone out of control other than a pilot induced s
208 NAV20 : Well, DavidL, if you think that a malfunctioning RTL in an aeroplane at cruising speed and 35,000 feet under manual control might not have had serious
209 COEWR787 : If they had managed to ditch successfully then wouldn't they also have been able to transmit messages even using HF regarding their position etc.? Wh
210 Part147 : That's a WoW remark!... Words of Wisdom
211 BrouAviation : I think L1011Lover meant that - which opinion I share, it's unacceptable that we can loose an airplane on our own planet and need 6 days to find out
212 David L : But you do a reliable job of making sure we're aware of them. I seem to recall you did something similar with the QF flight that had an oxygen bottle
213 ThrottleHold : As long as no large rudder inputs are introduced, it will have no effect at all. The limiter simply freezes at it's position when the failure occured
214 Babybus : Maybe it's time we had like a trans-oceanic CCTV operation going on. We have all those satellites up there and they should be able to spot and follow
215 FCA767 : Thanks for the info it was interesting...
216 David L : We definitely do. I most certainly believe an RTL fault might not have had serious consequences. I'm open to correction, of course, but as I recall,
217 ThrottleHold : Which crash are you referring too?
218 Patches : Hey BrouAviation, I agree with you 100% there is no way it should take that long with one of the most advanced airliners built and with all the gps et
219 Golftango : IIRC, the A310 in question had the captains son at the controls and he turned the yoke, turning off the auto pilot. There was no audible beep and the
220 NAV20 : They'd have been doing doing over 200kts. indicated above that, ThrottleHold.' Do I need to remind you that Sten Molin, First Officer of AA587, was p
221 Pihero : A few had been wondering when you would come back to your usual tactics of asking repeatedly the same question with a higher and higher dgree of inue
222 Trex8 : wasn't it more like he pressed it that one inch multiple times??
223 Gonzalo : Yes, that's the situation nowadays. I have a limited knowledge about GPS technology, but this matter has been discussed A LOT on the previous 12 part
224 Justloveplanes : Agree, a pressure switch of some kind to activate a sonar ping that is strong enough to find should be standard. shouldn't require that much more pow
225 NAV20 : Equally arguably, he didn't touch the rudder pedals at all, Trex8. It may well be that the rudder , through damage from contamination, just started o
226 Pihero : You didn't look very well or very far, then : ThrottleHold was precisely referring to the difference between the two messages ; "RUD TRV LIM FAULT "
227 NAV20 : OK, fine, Pihero. Just please post a link proving that, then I'll shut up for a while and we can move on.
228 Nomadd22 : Would the limiter freeze with the bad airspeed detection the system was getting (the channels were active, but the data was known to be wrong)? And i
229 Ellehammer09 : Are you aware of the size of this SMALLER ocean? The weather conditions must have played a big role in the search, but even the location in it self,
230 Post contains links Pihero : We're here to serve : Flight controls see pages 16, 43 and 45...among others... Is that a promise ?
231 Pilotaydin : this is not dropping at all....during an emergency let down we see up to 7000ft/min...so 8000 is really nothing uncomfortable.... The C160 a/c an des
232 AverageUser : And this just happened to take place when someone was at the controls who had a documented history of being rough with the rudder pedals -- and witho
233 Pihero : Difficult to know the exact logic behind the system but I think that the SECs rejected the air data at the same time. (i.e both channels were thrown
234 Logos : Amen. *Sigh* I guess I'm just not clever enough to leap to a conspiracy theory. My guess is that it will be determined that a combination of factors
235 NAV20 : Didn't see anything at ALL in there about the precise terms of ACARS error message No. 4 of the 24-message error message series from AF447, Pihero?
236 PPVRA : For better or for worse, it appears that the number of collected bodies has been corrected downward to a total of 16.
237 David L : Thanks but I can't take the credit - it wasn't me who said that. Yes, Trex8, that is correct, except, of course that the word "convicted" has been th
238 NAV20 : Have to confess to having had a beer with an AA captain, about that time, who said that Sten Molin had been his F/O for six months and was the best n
239 David L : However, NAV20 has claimed before that the NTSB did later find evidence of lamination but didn't update the report because they had "finished with it
240 Boeing747_600 : One of the theories that I have not across thus far (perhaps with good reason) is the possibility of overspeeding close to VNE. Can this be ruled out,
241 Post contains links Famfflores : FAB released these photos of the rudder. http://images.ig.com.br/publicador/u...3/153/52/4390416.cauda_279_399.jpg http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447
242 Dougbr2006 : Complete fin and rudder and looking at the second picture it looks like separated in a rearwards direction looking at the damage to the base of the r
243 LH526 : Shocking photos. Tails seem to be the only large floating pieces after a failed dirtching / crash into water ... now wouldn't THIS be the perfect loca
244 Boeing747_600 : I'm not exactly sure as to how to interpret "best natural pilot", but I'm guessing it had to do with pilot aptitude and good basic airmanship, which
245 Hiflyer : Just a thought re wreckage and bodies appearing now in areas supposedly already searched days ago and not in a widespread location. Could it possibly
246 Post contains links NAV20 : Truly sorry to 'go on about it,' DavidL. But please have a look at this case of a Canadian Air Transat A310 that lost about 99% of its rudder while c
247 Post contains links Alhena : There seems to be some new stuff being rolled out shortly though. There were several comments to the press about some CNS/ATM stuff becoming operatio
248 Mir : Check 1.27.40 Page 13 (page 45 in the PDF). The explanation of the rudder travel limiter and how it fails is given on 1.27.10 Page 15 (page 16 in the
249 Pylon101 : In my opinion it is not that thin. There are more people here knowing exact speed limits. I'd say at flight level 350 the airspeed between 0.72 and 0
250 Slinky09 : That was a thought that occurred to me too - could it be that these section were loosely attached as the plane hit the water, sank and then currents
251 NAV20 : Good to see you, Boeing747-600 - short answer is, I don't know what he meant exactly, either. The discussion started with me reaching for my reading
252 Rfields5421 : The problem with searching in the ocean is you can search an area today, and an hour later, there can be debris in that area which you did not see. I
253 Comorin : Also, since the Black Boxes are in the tail section, won't this narrow down the search significantly?
254 LH648 : Fin is from composites and was floating for the week...
255 Dougbr2006 : In those 24 messages I don't recall seeing anything about stall warning, stick push. One would assume that if the three pitot tubes had heater failure
256 Pylon101 : The search area is obviously large. But with objects and bodies found, having in mind known ocean current(s) in the area - it will be reduced. And I g
257 Post contains links and images Gulfstream650 : I just though that I would post this photo. I don't know about you but this photo has really brought the entire crash into perspective for me. So blo
258 David L : I never questioned the findings of that incident. However... ... that's not what you do. Just a few posts ago you tried to present your own guesses a
259 Gigneil : That is a huge percentage of the fin - if not all of it, its hard to tell (for me) from a picture for sure. But it certainly will provide a lot of goo
260 Post contains links Slinky09 : Another picture of the tail fin here: http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/FOTOS/080609/foto_1.JPG And one of a mess of pieces and internal wiring: htt
261 Markalot : Looks like the rudder is still attached. I respectfully request that the conversation be kept closer to AF A332 and not past incidences that have not
262 NAV20 : That's IT, as far as I'm concerned, Gulfstream650. The entire tailfln, broken off........ HONESTLY wish I'd been wrong in my earlier assertions about
263 DCA2011 : Hey guys FYI. CNN is now showing on their main page a LARGE segment of the tail being recovered by the Brazilian Navy. It appears to be the forward se
264 UALWN : How can you expect anybody to treat your posts seriously after this obviously biased rant?
265 Jetterrosie : I agree with you. Even though most of us here know the chance is miniscule, I know when I first heard I felt sick and then incredibly sad for those a
266 Dougbr2006 : In the photo the diver is pushing the rudder upwards, it is intact apart from a broken section from its base. The fin itself is complete.
267 JBirdAV8r : Scroll up a few posts. Rudder is attached. LOOKS fairly intact. Looks like a chunk is taken out of the lower part of the rudder and maybe a little of
268 Markalot : How can you be certain the tail breaking off was the cause of the problem and not a result of the problem? Sorry but that seems like a rash and unsub
269 LH648 : CNN is too slow. Fin is more o less intact, with rudder, check the posts above.
270 NAV20 : PLEASE just look at post 258 above, UALWN. I honestly wasnt 'ranting.' Just 100% right. If it's any consolation, wish to Hell I'd been wrong. 288 tim
271 Carls : I could not agree more!!! Ikramerica I believe that it has been more than evident that both countries are making a huge effort to recover the wreckag
272 Post contains links and images Gulfstream650 : On the lighter side - that fella kneeling on the rudder. Slap bam in the middle of the atlantic and he's down to his speedos! Lunatic - must be freez
273 Summa767 : Are you assuming then, that the tailfin/rudder came off when the aircraft was on cruise? I would wait until we know where the fin was located. If it
274 Famfflores : I thought exactly that when I just saw this. Question: By looking at this photo, is it reasonable to assume that the tail separated from the rest of
275 Famfflores : Actually no. it´s quite warm, water temperatures between 26 to 30 degrees Celsius
276 LipeGIG : The pics released by Brazilian Navy and Air Force so far does not present at first sight any sign of burning and the tail condition, as mentioned, re
277 Post contains links and images Tugger : It is hurricane season after all so the water must be warm. Here are the ocean surface temps for the Atlantic: http://image.weather.com/images/maps..
278 Gonzalo : I totally agree with you. The separation of the tail fin could be a consequence more than a cause of the crash. If you have a loss of aerodynamic con
279 NAV20 : Guess I am in a way, Summa767. Put it this way - I cant imagine any OTHER circumstances in which a mid-sized aitliner, with at least two experienced
280 Marcus : Is there a place where I can look and see the details of the messages sent before the accident?....I see that the discussion is using these a lot and
281 L1011Lover : THANX!!! I couldn't have said it better... and I'm glad that there are still people out there who got my point, understand what I meant and how I fee
282 ThrottleHold : How about you start us off?.....
283 Post contains links Moderators : Thread is pretty long, please continue part 14: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4439893/ Thanks.
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