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United Plans New Order For 150 Jets - Part 2  
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12566 posts, RR: 46
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23242 times:
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Please continue discussion from the original thread here.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4434542/


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
259 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23177 times:

OK the other thread got really huge really fast so here is what I think.

1. This order will not happen soon. In fact I think that the order may not be made until the end of the year.

2. I am a bit confused as to the "winner take all" phrase. Does this mean that either Boeing or Airbus will provide both large and small aircraft? If this is the case, it could be a huge mistake. Get the right plane, no matter who makes it.

3.Boeing will fight for this order. Not doing so would be stupid.

4. I think that the A321 has the advantage to replace the 757s (though not all of them obviously) and the 787 would make a nice fit to replace the 767s. I also think that Boeing could find them slots relatively soon, especially if they commit to a large number of planes.

5.77Ws are a possibility, though probably a small one. Smaller planes are in.

6. We will NOT see 787-3/8s replace any domestic 757s.

8. About the person who suggested that 767-400s might be a good idea...uhhh, did you ever by chance run an airline called SkyBus? UA ordering 767-400s would mean that they would be bringing a knife to a gunfight for quite some time.

9. We will most likely not see an order for the 747-8. This is in my mind a remote possibility that is only possible if Boeing is willing to give them planes very cheap. My money says that if UA wants a plane in that size category, Boeing will sell them the 77W. It works better for UA.

10. UA will NOT order the A380. But having fun with Photoshop is still allowed.

11. This order may or may not be the death knell of the rumored CO merger. What I think is clear is that CO is not in the driver's seat and has no influence over this order. Or at least if they do, UA is making a huge mistake. So for all of you who say "Well UA will order 737NGs because CO has them" I think that you are way off base. If UA orders the 737NG it will be because UA wants them, not because CO wants them or has them.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23133 times:
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Wjcandee says: (Original post, Reply 80)

Remarkable that 1/4 of UA's fleet is 757s.
They'll be around for a while.

--------------------------------------------------------------

A better reason to break that specific passenger load capacity into both mid-range and long-range frames.

Interestingly enough, according to the A.net data page, the maximum range for the A321-200 and the maximum range for the B737-900ER are only 176 km different from one another.
 Wow!


User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2688 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23134 times:

I guess I'll make my theory:

748I: no

A380: no

C Series: probably not. I think if Boeing wants to replace the 733s and 735s they would order Boeings

739ER: maybe

A350 (specifically the -1000 series): if Airbus gave UA a good deal the A350-1000s could replace 744s on routes that have too many seats

787-8: possibly to replace 763s

A321: possibly to replace some 757s

737NG: possibly, it could make a good replacement for the 733s and 735s

A330-200/300: if Airbus gave UA a good deal the A330s could replace the 763s



It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19708 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23020 times:



Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 3):

A321: possibly to replace some 757s

737NG: possibly, it could make a good replacement for the 733s and 735s

They'll get one or the other. If it's 320's then it'll be 320's. If it's 73G's then it will be 73G's. The two classes are evenly matched for performance, so there's not much point in splitting the fleet and increasing complexity and maintenance costs.


User currently offlineJBLUA320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3179 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 22895 times:
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This might be a dumb question and I admittedly did not read the other thread on this subject so I apologize if I'm rehashing, but wouldn't it be easier to phase out the 733s/735s and transfer those pilots to A320 family aircraft versus going with 73Gs? The Airbus fleet is newer and I thought they were replacing the older 737s in the first place?

[Edited 2009-06-07 15:14:21]

User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22804 times:
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United Plans to Order Up to 150 Jets: Report
06/04/09 - 12:23 AM EDT

UAUA , BA Joseph Woelfel
United Airlines plans to order up to 150 new airliners and has asked Boeing(BA Quote) and Airbus to propose dueling bids . . . .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JBLUA,
The premise of this thread is that UA has approached both Airbus and Boeing with a proposal to replace 150 airframes in a "winner-take-all" scenario -- no time frame.

The rest is A.net speculation.  Wink


User currently offlineJBLUA320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3179 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22727 times:
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If Airfleets is correct, UA has approximately 150 A319/A320s in active duty and roughly 30-40 737s in active duty. Even though the order would be for 150 airplanes, would it really behoove UA in the long run to keep a split fleet like that? The Airbii they have are significantly newer than their 733s/735s, so many pilots are already transferring to the type... I don't know. Seems like they are putting pressure on both manufacturers with the end goal to use deals they get from Boeing as leverage to have Airbus offer a more competitive price...

JBLU


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 22631 times:
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Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 7):
If Airfleets is correct, UA has approximately 150 A319/A320s in active duty and roughly 30-40 737s in active duty. Even though the order would be for 150 airplanes, would it really behoove UA in the long run to keep a split fleet like that? The Airbii they have are significantly newer than their 733s/735s, so many pilots are already transferring to the type... I don't know. Seems like they are putting pressure on both manufacturers with the end goal to use deals they get from Boeing as leverage to have Airbus offer a more competitive price...

Many have seen this as a chance for UA to replace the more tatty of its 747 frames and high-cycle 767 frames (I sat out a 3-hour delay on an LHR-bound 767 while rampers figured out how to put the cargo door back on our plane) .

Then there are the older P&W 757s.

So this appears not to just be about two-score of aged 737s.


User currently offlineDeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1651 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22067 times:

I would agree with KGAFlyer on this. I have feeling United isn't giving any thought to the AIrbus/737 families at the moment with the older 747/767s and some 757s in the fleet. COmbine that with there are so many options for replacment for this family (A330s, 777-200s/300s, 787s, etc) combined with the fact we've seen UAL getting more and more comfortable with outsourcing the domestic medium/short hauls to the regionals, I'm betting we'll continue to see the 737s leave the fleet, Airbuses stay and the order will be for all the widebodies and a few 757s.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21753 times:



Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 3):
737NG: possibly, it could make a good replacement for the 733s and 735s

A320s make a fantastic replacement for the 737s.

There is absolutely, positively, no possible chance for the 737 at United. To do so would be the most retarded business decision they've ever made, ever. And they've made bad ones.

NS


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21596 times:

I highly, highly doubt that any U.S. airline would ever operate the A380. This has been beat to death in other Civ-Av threads. This aircraft was not built with the U.S. market in mind. The majority of the U.S. air carriers are resorting to more narrow body usage more than widebody domestically. Not only that, capacity has been shedding dramatically over the last couple years or so. That does not justify an A380 operator here in the U.S. Get over it, folks....it isn't going to happen and that is just how it is.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
To do so would be the most retarded business decision they've ever made, ever.

So you are saying the 737 is not a very good aircraft at all, period??



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5957 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21328 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
There is absolutely, positively, no possible chance for the 737 at United. To do so would be the most retarded business decision they've ever made, ever. And they've made bad ones.

I think the A321 is the most likely candidate but truth be told when your talking about 150+ Airbus and 100 737NG you don't end up saving much in terms of fleet commonality. Both fleets are large enough to stand on their own....



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineHighflight1996 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21312 times:

This to me has "marketing stunt" written all over it. My opinion, as a ridiculously loyal (for no good reason) UA customer, is that this order will never occur:

1. Global financing, not to mention aircraft financing, is horribly bad right now. For those wanting to say it is a buyer's market and a great time for UA to jump in - fine - but throwing good money after bad is never a good idea. Therefore, there are not that many financers willing to give money to UA to buy new birds. Side note - the economy has not picked up enough where customers are flocking to the skies!

2. United still has a customer issue - customer's just do not seem happy (not to mention employees either). Yes, I know the sample size of me listening to my fellow customers does not make a complete picture, I get it. But, the scuttlebutt of customers, whether on the plane, the RC clubs, or in the terminal is that UA has done themselves no favors.

3. UA planes, including UAX, are in shoddy condition - even for relatively new birds. They look dated. Therefore, people want to get in other competitors equipment. I would much rather fly someone else's equipment right now. The UA stuff is bad.

4. Telling passengers that we are getting new equipment sounds great! But they really are not doing anything with mainline birds - it is more and more going to UAX. It is the 3-card monty trick - we will show you one thing, but give you another. I can hear the marketing buzz now: "Just wait until we get our new birds" (and in small print, written by a lawyer - 'that will be sometime between 2013 and the future beyond that').

5. The price of oil will be substantially higher than the profitability level for UA (not that they ever got there) and they are not hedged, for the rest of 2009. UA is not making money. Will not make money anytime soon.

So, I do not believe an order will ever be placed. I believe UA will probably have to go into bankruptcy again.

Just my opinion.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5957 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21297 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 8):
So this appears not to just be about two-score of aged 737s.

The 30 or so 737-300/500s will be out of the fleet by the end of the year long before any aircraft from this order are delivered.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5957 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21247 times:



Quoting Highflight1996 (Reply 13):
. UA planes, including UAX, are in shoddy condition - even for relatively new birds. They look dated. Therefore, people want to get in other competitors equipment. I would much rather fly someone else's equipment right now.

UA is refurbishing every singe aircraft in the fleet.....

Quoting Highflight1996 (Reply 13):
But, the scuttlebutt of customers, whether on the plane, the RC clubs, or in the terminal is that UA has done themselves no favors.

Oh agreed but show me a legacy that has happy customers right now....in this case the grass is not greener on the other side.

Quoting Highflight1996 (Reply 13):
and they are not hedged, for the rest of 2009.

Actually UA is hedged.....UA is expected to pay less for fuel this quarter then most of their legacy counterparts.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineTK739ER From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21240 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
There is absolutely, positively, no possible chance for the 737 at United.

Neil,would you mind to enlighten us why??


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21078 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
There is absolutely, positively, no possible chance for the 737 at United. To do so would be the most retarded business decision they've ever made, ever. And they've made bad ones.

I think that the 737 is a long shot in this battle, but not because it is an inferior aircraft. Rather, I doubt that any performance advantage would outweigh commonality with the existing Airbus fleet. But that said, if we are talking about a lot of planes, (say 30 or more) the benefits of commonality are reduced, so anything could happen.

Either way, I doubt that you would ever find any airline executive that would call the purchase of 737s 'retarded.' It is very rare that you hear someone say that the 737 is the 'wrong' aircraft for a given flight.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1651 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21066 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 15):
Oh agreed but show me a legacy that has happy customers right now....in this case the grass is not greener on the other side.

Continental..................


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30993 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21063 times:
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Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
There is absolutely, positively, no possible chance for the 737 at United.



Quoting TK739ER (Reply 16):
Neil,would you mind to enlighten us why?

Because they will soon only have A319s and A320s, so why add a new type to the fleet that isn't really different from what they already have?

It's not like the 737NG flies twice as far or burns half as much fuel. Pundit grandstanding aside, the two models are effectively at parity.

If UA were to add the 737NG family into the fleet, they need to add all the infrastructure to support it and that's expensive. If they stay with the A320 family, they already have all that infrastructure on hand, bought and paid for.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5957 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21024 times:



Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 18):
Quoting United1 (Reply 15):
Oh agreed but show me a legacy that has happy customers right now....in this case the grass is not greener on the other side.

Continental..................

Oh please you can and do find customers that gripe about CO.....along with UA, DL, AA & US. COs service is not that much different then any of the other US legacies.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 20969 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
If UA were to add the 737NG family into the fleet, they need to add all the infrastructure to support it and that's expensive. If they stay with the A320 family, they already have all that infrastructure on hand, bought and paid for.

They would, but such benefits are negligble when we are talking about the numbers that would be needed to replace much of the domestic 757 flying.

My real prediction though, is that most of the domestic 757s will be replaced not by A321s, but by more (or not) 319s and 320s. Also, I suspect that some 757 flying will go to 320/319 and some 319/320 flying will go to UA Express, in line with their current philosophy.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineTK739ER From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 20899 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
to add all the infrastructure to support it and that's expensive.

I'm aware of that but don't they already have the infrastructure and knowledge about the 737 Jurassics?? In this case another question pops up in my mind; how much difference we are talking about between jurassics and NG in the matter of maintenance,crew and other infrastructure?
Or how difficult is the proccess of adaptation between two types?
Thanks


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5957 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 20877 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
My real prediction though, is that most of the domestic 757s will be replaced not by A321s, but by more (or not) 319s and 320s.

I'm curious why you think that? The A321 seems to be better matched for capacity and without the 752/321/739ER in the fleet there is a rather large gap between the A320 and the 763.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5192 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 20561 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 20):
COs service is not that much different then any of the other US legacies.

Its different enough. Continental is my favorite airline but I like flying United as well; however there is a distinct difference in service - at least in Y.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
25 Runga08 : IMHO, A a321 replacement of the 757 is more feasible than a 737-9 because current pilots with a a320 family certification would not need to be re cert
26 Klkla : My gut instinct tells me the same thing.... But... Giving the Devil (Tilton) his due and taking him at his word... IMO this is Airbus' order to lose.
27 BMI727 : It is a better match capacitywise, but I'm not at all convinced that is what UA will want. They have been cutting capacity left and right for a while
28 Wjcandee : All of this can be taken care of with the manufacturer providing one or more of: a big check, a big discount, or an undertaking to supply an inventor
29 United Airline : When the economy improves, UA will be forced to buy the A 380 for transpacific routes in order to compete with SQ (when they put the A 380 on SIN-HKG-
30 BalZ18 : What about replacing the 737-3 and 737-5 with ERJ-190's? They already fly 170's and they seem to like them. Thoughts?
31 Wjcandee : True with regard to published specs, but max range isn't the whole story. For example... With the 757, you're gonna be able to do that first three to
32 BMI727 : And good luck trying to get an A321 out of Jackson Hole or St. Thomas. I doubt it. An A380 is not necessary to compete with other A380s. It has nothi
33 BalZ18 : I gotta tell you I think it'll be a cold day in hell if that ever happened, having said that I HIGHLY doubt it ever will... HIGHLY DOUBT... They won'
34 United Airline : UA has been a very long/loyal B 747 operator for a long time. Then maybe a mixture of B 777-300ER+B 747-8 or the B 747-8 I still remember Airbus once
35 Coalways : Im guessing u never flown Continental? There domestic Service is way better then any Legacy carrier they have free hot meals in coach and on 2hr flig
36 KGAIflyer : Probably the bumpiest ride I've ever had was when AS flew a redeye into Dulles from Seattle. Most of the trip that night (the pilot announced) was at
37 Astuteman : It wasnt built with the domestic market in mind, either, of course....... Although, as per previous thread, John Leahy doesn't seem to think the A380
38 KGAIflyer : Why? And are you thinking of the old 321-100 or the new 321-200? A 321-200 doesn't require any longer a runway than the 319 or 320.
39 Thebatman : Oh yes they have... And that was one of their worst decisions...getting those A320's in the first place. Let's hope they learned their lesson and "bu
40 ElBandGeek : People talk so much about UA getting the 737NG so they "fit" with CO. If that's the case, they're actually better off going with the Airbus option. If
41 BMI727 : But having a choice greatly improves your chances of finding a good ride. If you can pick anywhere from FL410 on down you have a better chance than i
42 BA319-131 : - Why was it a bad decision? And this buy American thing, are you saying products made in America are better than anything made elsewhere in the worl
43 United Airline : Will they still merge with CO? Or even LH? If yes then there will be massive changes
44 Wjcandee : Ain't that the truth. When ATA got the NGs, their 757 pilots were routinely complaining that they were a step *backwards* in just about every respect
45 BMI727 : The only real advantage "buying American" has is the possibility of favorable exchange rates. Even that would most likely be a small factor in such a
46 BananaBoY : Why was it one of their worst decisions? Mark
47 Thebatman : Wow...I didn't think that was going to generate so many responses so quickly. I am NOT one of those people who believe that Boeing is better simply be
48 Kappel : Well, the article that started it all mentioned that UA wants to decide "as early as fall". So end of the year is likely indeed. Agreed. But they hop
49 Post contains links Keesje : UA has been a large VLA (747) user for decades. Together with Delta (NWA) they are the US Pacific carriers. Parts of their network / organisation is
50 United Airline : If they can order the B 747-400 they can order the A 380 as well as the B 747-8. This may well be a way to negotiate a better deal. BA did something s
51 Ual777 : UA management came to the UA pilot group about wanting 90 seat RJs. The UA pilots said that was fine if they were on the UA seniority list. UA manage
52 Cws818 : This is not saying much since in theory they could also order Tupolevs. Just because they "can" order 388 or 748 does not mean that they should order
53 United1 : oooooh high class indeed, free food (especially chips and a candy bar with a sandwich) while a nice touch is not going to keep me loyal to any one ai
54 Kappel : If they can fill them. What's attractive about the a380 is (according to SQ at least) that the a380 has the same trip cost as the 744, but of course
55 MSYtristar : Taking the local economy into consideration, an all-Boeing order would indeed be very nice, and I hope Boeing puts its best foot forward in trying to
56 Columba : I think this will become a mixed order: The A321 is -at the moment - the only real option when it comes to a 757 replacement. UA has no 737NGs in thei
57 Theredbaron : I want a bottle of what you are having... United will make a very careful and aggressive negotiation with A or B because they need to survive in the
58 Sxf24 : I think this is one the most sensible posts yet. Despite UA's assertion this will be a "winner take all" competition, a split order makes the most se
59 GlobeEx : You know, it's very easy to make a statement without any backup.... ... even though you seem to elaborating your theses with this statement, it also
60 Post contains links Keesje : I invite you'll to go over this thread. Its full of people explaining why a certain airline will NEVER buy the A380 and if they do somehow, only a few
61 Gigneil : Those A320s have been fantastic for United - and there was no other aircraft available at the time to buy. UA's selection of the A320 was one of the
62 Post contains images KGAIflyer : I'm not arguing since I've never piloted either frame. It's just that I have been comparing the planes at similar airports. For instance, JAC (Jackso
63 Post contains links A342 : The problem is that JAC has an airfiled elevation of 6451ft vs. 1906ft at INN. However, juding from satellite images, lengthening the runway at JAC s
64 United Airline : Some of UA''s B 747-400s were ordered in the mid to late 90s. When the economy picks up again they will need such a plane.
65 United787 : Welcome to my respected users list...I agree with all of your comments 100%, very well put! I will add one thing, I wouldn't be surprised to see the
66 VictorKilo : UA could also be be betting that, since it's not able to find a buyer in the short run, it can lock in a bunch of orders cheaply now, the economy wil
67 EA772LR : You couldn't pay me to drive a GM or Chrysler product now. It's simple, the American auto manufacturers simply stop building vehicles that provided t
68 DocLightning : It gets complicated when you start mixing a 77W fleet with an A359 fleet. They have nothing in common at all. There is a balance to strike between ha
69 EA772LR : I should have been more clear, I meant in general, the 359 is the best 77E replacement, and if UA needs a plane that size, then I don't see anything
70 KGAIflyer : Chevrolet? My old Monte Carlo was manufactured in Ontario with Canadian parts -- it was pretty much a foreign car. America is a very schizoid nation.
71 Gigneil : Well, the A380 has an 8200 nm range with pax and bags, and BA and EK are going to be receiving ones with an even better payload/range with no additio
72 GlobeEx : Of course they are taking 777 right now. They ordered them years ago! Maybe you could enlighten me, how their are supposed to expand any further, if
73 United Airline : SFO-SYD, LAX-SYD, SFO-HKG, ORD-HKG, ORD-NRT, SFO-NRT, LAX-NRT, SFO-FRA are B 747-8/A 380 candidates. Will they resume LAX-HKG later? If yes then it wi
74 GlobeEx : That's what I am talking about. If they start putting a 77W or even smaller aircrafts (A350) on this route I just wouldn't understand that. How can y
75 EA772LR : Would this impact their fleet plans?? First of all, EK don't have 70 350-1000s on order, they dont even have enough to replace their 77Ws, and Tim Cl
76 FlyPNS1 : Who says these routes are profitable? I'm betting good odds that most of them right now are not. And even if they are profitable, who says they could
77 Gigneil : I fully concur that smaller, more capable planes is the tack they are going to take. An A350-800, or a 787-9 for that matter, would be great for them
78 GlobeEx : Well, I see, where you are coming from. I know, if they were only two carriers competing on the same route, you could say that, however that's not th
79 EA772LR : Yeah but that is only for the first what 20?? That won't last, and if UA were to order the 788, they certainly wouldn't be able to take delivery of a
80 Post contains links and images Keesje : It seems A321 and 777-300ER seem safe beds. Even more if Boeing, Airbus and GE upgrade them with improved engines. From personal experience I can say
81 TISTPAA727 : Sorry, but the flying public doesn't give a rat's you know what... what plane they are on. Some will say, oh that was a nice flight and think they we
82 FlyPNS1 : I think there is a vision there and it's a vision based on UA having its traffic flows split across multiple hubs. If UA only had one transpacific hu
83 EA772LR : You could be right. I would love to see the A380 or 748 with UA, but if they don't feel they need an aircraft of that size, then they just won't get
84 Gigneil : I have to add that Leeham believes the 77W is a pretty solid bet because the 787-10 is too small and probably dead, and the 350-1000 is too far out -
85 GlobeEx : I'm totally with you here! The fact that people bringing up that there isn't a lot of slot restiction at the airports UA is flying to might be true,
86 Gigneil : UA's present problem is facilities capacity, available lift, and at Chicago certainly congestion is an issue. They're pretty full up from a gates pers
87 GlobeEx : So you are trying to say that the A380 is to big for UA's network, however, in the same sentence you are talking about a additional frequency from DE
88 BMI727 : Yeah, Boeing certainly could benefit from the 77L. If I remember correctly, the threshold where a 77L becomes more efficient than a 77E is somewhere
89 Scorpy : Not to mention that UA has struggled historically to operate double daily 747's on certain routes, yet double daily twins or even say 10pw services a
90 ER757 : I think this is a textbook case for Airbus' marketing strategy for the A350 family. Will be watching this one closely to see how UA sees it. I hope y
91 Gigneil : Sure. They absolutely do. United, or Boeing? Assuming UA - most of their flights come in under the 5000nm set, and the ones that are above that tend
92 EA772LR : That's just the point. Since UA doesn't operate any ULH, and probably wouldn't operate anything longer than what the 787/A350 could handle, I don't s
93 United1 : Thats one of the reasons why I think that Airbus has a bit of an edge over Boeing in these negotiations the prospects of a family of aircraft from th
94 FlyPNS1 : I'm saying that if/when UA wants to grow its presence in Asia, it will be more profitable to add new routes from new gateways, rather than just dump
95 United1 : If UA goes Boeing for this order I would rate the 77Ls as extremely likely probably not for ultra long haul but on routes of over 5500 miles or so th
96 Gigneil : DEN can certainly pick up more small markets, but I don't see any reason why feed couldn't be added to SFO to bolster those routes. If you fly from D
97 GlobeEx : Well, and we have all seen how well that played out.
98 Sdq777 : It would be nice to see UA pick up some second-hand 757-300's.
99 Gigneil : I'm not sure they'd want to... there aren't many available, and there are very, very few with PW4000s anyway. In fact, I think that DL's are the only
100 United1 : Pretty well actually, take a look at DEN UAs market share has been shrinking however their revenue share has been increasing. Probably not unless DL
101 DocLightning : The 77L?
102 GlobeEx : Well as far as I'm concerned Frontiers numbers look similar (decreased markteshare, increased revenue), is that correct? Besides, you have to keep in
103 Gigneil : It can't go out with its FULL payload over 8000nm, that's for sure. NS
104 Stitch : At 8000nm a 77L will lift 130,000 pounds, which is 92% of it's rated maximum structural payload of 141,000 pounds. That being said, I don't see UA ne
105 EA772LR : It's max range at full payload is 7,500nm, so:
106 AirframeAS : But that does not mean anything. Just because they (UA) operate the 747 for a long time does not even mean they will get the A380. UA simply cannot a
107 Gigneil : Money isn't really an object, they can get anything they want financed and come on, they can support the plane. NS
108 GlobeEx : Thank you. I know that F9 is doing well in DEN. How DEN is doing I didn't/don't know. I just wanted to say that even if UA was doing good at DEN, it
109 United1 : Adding intercontinental flights out of DEN probably won't work that well simply because DEN will steal traffic from other UA hubs farther west. UA ca
110 Behramjee : This is what I personally love doing i.e. fleet planning and route network planning and this upcoming order by UAL is another appetizing news item to
111 FlyPNS1 : But that's exactly the goal. If UA needs more capacity to compete with the Asian carriers out of SFO (as some here are claiming), why not free up the
112 AirframeAS : With the current state that UA is in, I disagree. They cannot afford for the high lease rates and they also cannot afford to support a whole brand ne
113 Gigneil : Again, it would be irresponsible to buy a new fleet of aircraft with a 25 year plan with a plane that already is 10 years old, and there is a new gen
114 United1 : Ummm UA has cut capacity at DEN by quite a bit but has managed to increase their revenue share at DEN .....As for F9 doing better then UA at DEN that
115 Gigneil : As soon as a few 787s make their way to ANA, they basically already said they would be sending one along to DEN... A plane smaller than a 777 could ma
116 AA777223 : I was going to say that I think he's being facetious, but the quotes below would seem to dictate otherwise...
117 AirframeAS : I disagree. UA at DEN is grasping by the fingernails. Their market share has dropped dramatically while F9 has gained market share. With that logic,
118 Stitch : Market share and profit share do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. UA could be losing market-share, but still making a profit because they are earning
119 AA777223 : I know that UA no longer sticks to this rule as closely as they used to (partially because the current aircraft offereings don't allow them to, with p
120 EA772LR : That sounds like the definition of the 787.
121 Gigneil : It is. It also applies to the A350-800. Perhaps not as well, but the fact that it can go from small to large in one family may well be what they go f
122 AirframeAS : But UA has been posting losses while F9 has been posting profits.
123 Stitch : Sure. But those numbers are systemwide. And UA flies to alot more places then F9 does. What would be relevant would be the numbers for the DEN statio
124 EA772LR : This is true, so do you believe UA will go for a direct 763ER replacement, or do you think they would go up to a substantially larger A358 as their s
125 Stitch : If an A350-800XWB offers UA similar trip costs to a 767-300ER, then they have no reason not to, since the extra seats become "free" so whether or not
126 Gigneil : I think they might. I can't speak with any certainty - but I think the benefits of a single widebody family are large. I also think the story of the
127 United1 : Exactly Stitch.... and yet they are still, by far, the largest airline at DEN.....UA is not pulling out of DEN and is as committed to a DEN hub today
128 Stitch : Indeed. The 787-9 has more capacity and more range then the 787-8, so if the trip costs are close, I think we'll see something along the lines of the
129 Runga08 : Well, do we know how much did it "hurt" DL not having anything bigger than a 777 until they acquired NW?
130 Gigneil : I am positive that Delta would say they needed a LOT more 777s - but also, they had very few markets where 747s were really necessary, since their st
131 Briguy1974 : The more I read on this the more I think Boeing has the inside edge on this order. Having said that I still believe UA could use the A321 in its fleet
132 EA772LR : Well according to Airbus, in a 3 class arrangement the A358 is 270 seats, which is a good bit bigger than the 763ER, 746ER, and the A332. The 358 sor
133 Gigneil : I'm not sure they could get 787s before 2015 anyway. NS
134 EA772LR : Even leased ones? Surely they could lease some if they really needed to before 2015, same as the 777s if they chose to order 77W/L? I was just thinki
135 Gigneil : I'm not sure where the leasing companies are in the delivery list for 787s. Its possible, I suppose. As to 777s, they could get those no problem, prob
136 Cws818 : Under current law UA cannot merge with LH or any other foreign carrier.
137 AirframeAS : That is correct. One good example of this law being enforced is the dreaded and killed AA and BA merger. This has been beaten to death in older threa
138 BMI727 : It absolutely can be ignored, because as of now, it does not exist. Plus, both airlines have an economy of scale so that fleet compatibility is all b
139 JayinKitsap : Some thoughts: a) Didn't BA tout time and again "Winner take all", right up to the point where they ordered 787 and A380, with quantities + options +
140 United Airline : Possible but I think they need more than that.
141 Post contains links OyKIE : Just adding that according to Leahy the RFP sadly does not include the A380 or 747-8i. http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=6%2F9%2F2009
142 DocLightning : Don't be so sure. Before the A320, UA's narrowbodies were all American-made. Yet they bought Airbus. UA is going to go with the best plane for their
143 United Airline : Yes. And things can change easily.
144 VirginFlyer : Except that it isn't just for long haul planes, it is for the widebody fleet and the 757s, based on what Tilton has said. This was posted in the prev
145 Kappel : That's an odd thing to say... the a332 and 788 are the same size. So if the a332 is too big in your opinion, so is the 788. I do agree that the a358
146 United Airline : Wonder if Tilton will be gone by then or way before that. UA needs a new Chairman and CEO
147 OyKIE : Thank you for sharing the original letter. Both my remarks are based on the ATW online article which says it's just for long haul. They are usually a
148 Post contains links Gigneil : United's RFP not for A380 or 747-8i: http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...fe52e0-b92f-42e6-a62c-a2d65e00da79 NS
149 AA777223 : I was saying the same thing. Clearly the RR was the superior engine for the 757, but UA chose the PW powerplants, because they HAVE to, due to an out
150 Revelation : Clearly A350-800 will be much bigger than 767-400, and A350-1000 much smaller than 747-400. Some data posted long ago at a.net: Widebody cabin floor
151 United1 : There is no requirement/agreement that UA has to choose PW engines when they are available. It's the perfect time to plan for growth actually remembe
152 Revelation : Also up for debate is at which rate the growth will occur. I've heard a few estimates say that once the recovery takes hold growth will be 30 - 40% l
153 Gigneil : Clearly. And I agree with that. The market won't be improving. But aircraft available in that market will. The 77W is an awesome plane, but the A350-
154 Stitch : Well their only other option before the A320 were Russian-sourced narrowbodies, and the Cold War kind of made such an order a bit difficult.
155 Gigneil : They could have signed on to the MD-90 bandwagon I s'pose. NS
156 Stitch : Point taken.
157 United1 : True and then there are others that show a growth rate of 4 percent, witch is around the same rate as during the .com boom. UAs costs aren't exactly
158 AA777223 : I have always considered it more of a "gentleman's agreement".
159 Post contains links and images VirginFlyer : Not completely true: View Large View MediumPhoto © Burger Collection V/F
160 Stitch : I do not believe the Caravelle was offered for sale in the mid-to-late 1980's when UA purchased their 737 Classic Fleet.
161 Sxf24 : How can a plane that doesn't exist offer superior operating economics? Or put another way, how can you trash the 787s performance but get behind the
162 Gigneil : That's not how the world works. Other than some exceptions, aircraft design is a science, not an art. The A350 'exists' as much as the 787 did for ye
163 Stitch : Well it is right now just a variety of public PR declarations and private performance guarantees, but considering the sales of the A350-800XWB and A3
164 EA772LR : Wow, I never thought of this, and I'm surprised more people have not talked about this. This struck a chord with me because at our company, we regula
165 Sxf24 : Either the 787 is an exception, and Airbus can execute flawlessly on its promises, or we're in an era where its more important to win orders with vag
166 Gigneil : I would certainly agree that things have not gone well for either of them lately. Boeing racked up pre-first-flight sales for the 787 of over 800 uni
167 United Airline : Wonder when will we see the real UA back. That was the UA back in the 80s and 90s. They were growing actively placing super large orders. They led the
168 Gigneil : The only aircraft in your world is the 747. The actual RFP did not include the plane. Formal bidding processes are not subject to change like that. NS
169 AirframeAS : Not while Tilton is in charge, that is for sure! And we won't see "the real UA" ever again. UA will be a wholly changed airline after Tilton is gone.
170 Sxf24 : You can sell all you want, but if you can't deliver what was promised...
171 United Airline : Not at all. There are many others. They can still order the B 747-8 or even the A 380 at the second round. No body knows what's in the RFP exactly. N
172 United Airline : I have a feeling that they will replace the B 767s first. Then the B 757. Then the B 747-400s. Then the B 777s. Progressively. My 1 cent
173 United Airline : I suppose James Goodwin was even worse right?
174 AirframeAS : I doubt that. He is going to be with UA for a quite awhile. As you said, Tilton has pretty thick skin.... We will never know. But I think UA would be
175 Revelation : Go to youtube.com and search on "telepresence" to see what a high end video conference system looks like. The ones in our campus are custom built roo
176 Gigneil : I work for the company that produces said product... needless to say, we'd like to think it can help people avoid unnecessary travel and cost. That b
177 United Airline : Hope UA won't go the way they went. Maybe in another booming economy.
178 Avek00 : Objectively speaking, Glenn Tilton is arguably the best CEO United has had since Steve Wolf - the Tilton years have been marked by relative labor peac
179 United Airline : What about Gerald Greenwald? Bring him back!
180 AirframeAS : If that is the case, then why do the majority of the employees hate him so much?
181 United1 : Oh they hated Steve Wolf just as much....it's a reoccurring theme
182 Stitch : Because they're no longer running the airline for their own benefit, as was the case under Gerald Greenwald.
183 United1 : Ended up not liking him to much at the end either...... At any rate if this order happens UA, and whether anyone likes it or not under Tiltons leader
184 Post contains images AirframeAS : Ahhhhh so they (the UA employees) still has not grasped the concept that owning and controlling the airline on their own did not work at all..... [Ed
185 Post contains images Bluesky02 :   I don't think that all United employees share the same anger toward management as, say, Capt. Steve Wallach, or some of the old timers who still s
186 Sdq777 : Here's some food for thought.. Maybe Boeing should dust off the MD-12 blue prints that have been laid up for about a decade.
187 AADC10 : In Tilton's letter to employees, it states that the RFP is for widebodies and possibly the 757 fleet. It does not cover the current A320/319 and reti
188 UA933 : I would not rely to much on Leahy's comment concerning UA and a possible 748 or 388 order. Every source quoting him seems to put it differently. I thi
189 Stitch : We're already having that conversation.
190 Zvezda : Indeed. The union is nothing more than an organized crime syndicate engaging in an extortion racket. It should be prosecuted under RICO.
191 Post contains links Keesje : Range is only one of the deciding factors in fleet composition. Capasity, turnover, landing/overfly rights, hub network operations and slots are othe
192 AirNZ : Out of interest, why would such have any real bearing on VLA's. Just curious as I've never viewed any VLA aircraft as being specifically geared towar
193 Post contains links VirginFlyer : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-interest-in-the-boeing-747-8.html V/F
194 Bluesky02 : Thanks for sharing this article. That was one of the many reasons for the hold up on new orders was they were waiting for newer technology, especiall
195 United Airline : They will probably wait for a while to see. Boeing will probably push UA hard to buy the B 787 as well as the B 747-8 (give away prices). Seems that t
196 Zvezda : Airbus and Boeing will push UA hard to buy the A350 and 787, respectively, but neither will be offering anything at "give away prices." There is no w
197 PlanesNTrains : I would assume that less people is less people, so a VLA could be replaced theoretically by an A3510, and so on down the line. Specifically, if you d
198 United Airline : They did. QF's A 330s were sold to them were heavily discounted ones I am sure Boeing and Airbus will sell the B 747-8 and the A 380 to UA at a heavil
199 Zvezda : Airbus and Boeing are willing to sell every model to UA (or any other large buyer) at heavily discounted prices. Single-aisle aircraft get discounted
200 United Airline : I believe they need the A 380 or the B 747-8 for the Asian/Australian and some European routes. They say they don't want it but it might be a move tha
201 AirNZ : Yes indeed, and I would certainly agree with that. My curiosity was probably more aroused by the wording (and I could very well not be fully understa
202 Cws818 : UA, apparently, does not agree with you about European routes. They have been rather consistent in moving the existing 744s off transatlantic routes.
203 Cws818 : UA has operated one MD type: the DC-10 series 10 and 30. As to the Airbus alternatives, the A300 was duplicative since they had the DC10, while the 7
204 United Airline : I know they use primarily B 767/777 to Europe. Only 1 or 2 B 747-400 flights (SFO-FRA maybe?). Even if they order the A 380/B 747-8 we will still see
205 Zvezda : Let's address these one by one. UA used to need VLAs for Australia first because nothing else had the range and later because they were one of only t
206 UA933 : UA pulled the 747s from the european runs because the wanted to close the IAD 747 crew base to cut costs. UA has some routes that could fill a 747 tra
207 BananaBoY : Just NRT, PVG and HKG. Mark
208 Hiflyer : Believe that was before the 737 fleet removal and subsequent furloughs were announced. Now they are going into opening of contracts and such...dangli
209 VirginFlyer : Out of interest, who is the fifth? I must have missed that one... Traditionally UA operated Boeing narrowbodies (Caravelles notwithstanding). Traditi
210 Zvezda : The likely fifth is SQ.
211 United1 : These are two of biggest reason why I believe Airbus has a lead over Boeing in this case. As UA already operates 150+ IAE powered A320 series aircraf
212 United1 : Possibly, SQ has been trying for years though of course EK supposedly was looking at the route at one point or another. While I don't think UA is eve
213 Gigneil : Yeah? Can I get the price they paid on those from you? NS
214 Birdbrainz : Maybe UA will be work a "launch customer" deal with Boeing, which will include 787s, a souped up 77W, and a next next gen 737. The price breaks will b
215 Gigneil : I didn't really think about leased A330-200s, but that would certainly fit a good niche. Idk about A340s - that'd have to be a sweet deal to make it
216 EA772LR : This is still under the mindset that this will be an all-or-nothing order. I haven't seen any such statements from UA. It makes the most sense to kee
217 United1 : I'm more operating under this mindset then UA only wanting an all or nothing deal. UA has said this order will shape their fleet for the next 25 year
218 MSYtristar : I agree. Should UA go with A350 over B787, it would surprise me. In fact, I'd be flat out shocked. I think Boeing will pull out all the stops to secu
219 United Airline : Never say never. I suppose they will do a B 757/767 replacement first. Then the B 747-400. Lastly the B 737/A 319+320. Wonder when/whether or not they
220 Pellegrine : Probably US$105-125 Million pp. What do you think?
221 Philly65 : A321/350 solution. Doesn't United still have $91M in deposits on the table for 42 A320 family airplanes(?) United would make Boeing compensate for any
222 United1 : Yeah its still on deposit with Airbus....UA wrote it off for accounting purposes but UA and Airbus are still negotiating what to do with it.
223 AADC10 : Most airlines are structured around business travelers. Only a few discount and tourist destination airlines such as Hawaiian Air are focused on tour
224 United Airline : The A 380 will continue to do well I think.
225 AirframeAS : What is with you and the obsession of the A380 & UA mixed together. Do you not understand that UA is not interested in the aircraft? They cannot affo
226 United Airline : I am not obsessed with the A 380. It's just that I think when UA recovers, or merges with another airline, they will probably need something bigger th
227 ZKOJH : UA - can see them going for 787-8 and 9's and 77W's the 748 and 380 have both been ruled out.
228 United Airline : They have not ruled anything out but maybe chances are lower. That's it. You don't rule things out in this industry. How old are their B 757s anyway?
229 VirginFlyer : I think we can safely assume they have ruled out the Il-96. Likewise, if they conclude they do not have a need for a VLA, then the A380 and the 747 w
230 United Airline : Umm..........maybe. We will see ll 96 looks cool in UA's livery.
231 VirginFlyer : Oh no, what have I started... V/F
232 Astuteman : I'm a big fan of the A380, but that sure came across as a decidedly random comment.. As it happens, I'd like to think so, too.. But as far as UA are
233 United Airline : Leahy is full of cxxp sometimes
234 Gigneil : You're not United Airline The point of course is neither he nor anyone else here knows what was paid for them. They announced they'd been ruled out.
235 United1 : They said that they did not include the 748 and 380 in their RFPs to Boeing and Airbus. UAs focus is on new technology airplanes (ie 787 and 350) rig
236 United Airline : I have sold all my UA's new shares in early 2008. Well they said the A380/B747-8 are not on the top of the list. Hope UA will recover soon. Will LH bu
237 Cws818 : How is this even REMOTELY relevant????
238 Cws818 : Recover from what, exactly? From not ordering the aircraft that they should, at least in your mind, be flying and/or ordering???[Edited 2009-06-14 02
239 Cws818 : From what base(s) and to which destinations, pray tell...
240 Hiflyer : One of the possible selling points of Star when first brought out years ago was using the members as a block to order aircraft to obtain best prices a
241 Post contains links UA933 : http://www.aero.de/Boeing_sucht_weit...ach_Antwort_auf_A350_XWB__8647.htm sorry only in german. The article states that Boeing is uncertain if it will
242 Gigneil : The rebuilt 777 would take at least 4 years or so to design and build, and I'm not sure it could be done that quickly at this point. I'm not sure when
243 Olympic472 : For this round, UA is clearly looking into the 757 and 767 replacements. The 777 are all relatively new in UA's fleet. They will be around for quite a
244 Mercure1 : In addition to the A321 order, I'd think UA would order a few more A320s to assist on the T-con and midcont rts (ORD-LAX). Keep a few of the newer 75
245 Gigneil : Unless Boeing has reserved slots for UA, the 787 is sold out until about when UA could get A350s. NS
246 Pellegrine : Nope, but we do know NW paid way below $100M for their A330s way back when. I'm still unclear whether anybody ordering A330s recently with A380 compe
247 Gigneil : Aye, which is why I concur with conjecture that a 77W lease is in the cards. There may be frames available from lessors with closer-in dates. NS
248 BMI727 : I think that Boeing could accomodate them, especially if we are talking about a large order.
249 AirframeAS : I never said that UA would pull out of DEN. Where did you get the idea that I thought that?!
250 United1 :
251 UA933 : Does UA give out information concerning the performance of each of their hubs?
252 United1 : Generally as a rule no, there are bits of information that is leaked on here and elsewhere though.
253 United Airline : Wonder if they will grow DEN internationally
254 AirNz : How could that be achieved (and especially for a large order)
255 Sancho99504 : I've flown on a few OO CR7's and they didn't look or seem dated to me. Also, with S5 E170 are pretty nice as well.
256 BMI727 : They hold back some slots. UA probably isn't in a good a position with Boeing as AA was, but I think that if they were going to order 30-40 planes, B
257 Mercure1 : I seem to recall THY got its 77W rather guick, by way of Jet Airways 77W and now some factory fresh ones that they only ordered shortly ago. Anyone h
258 Post contains links and images MarcoPoloWorld : Once John Leahy is finished with them, UA will definitely be ordering the A380. Now, whether UA can pay for it (or any other aircraft for that matter)
259 Post contains links WILCO737 : Part 3 now available: United Plans New Order For 150 Jets - Part 3 (by WILCO737 Jun 20 2009 in Civil Aviation) Thread locked.
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