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AF A332 Crash (F-GZCP) Part 14  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 505 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 63552 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

This is part 14 regarding the crash of AF flight 447, continuing from the previous thread:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...neral_aviation/read.main/4438676/1

As requested before:

We understand that media reports are often littered with errors, especially regarding technical areas of aviation. While it may be worth pointing these out, please avoid having the discussion focus on these points - these will be considered off-topic contributions.

Please also remember that it will be likely that the media will be checking this thread; please try to make sure that your posts are conducive to a constructive discussion and are based on facts. Please try to steer away from wild speculation.

As ever, the forum rules apply; remember to focus on the topic in-hand and not other users.

Regards,

The Forum Moderators.


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266 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 63557 times:

Finding the tail of the crashed plane is a major breakthrough indeed...as the black boxes are generally located in the tail section, maybe this increases the possibility of finding them....but again, if the plane broke up before hitting the water, they could be quite far off....

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 63442 times:

They found the fin - but not the whole tail section. The fin could easily have snapped off the plane with the rest of the empennage still connected to the fuse.

Its certainly a great step forward.

NS


User currently offlineMarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 63342 times:

Posted this question on part 13 just 10 minutes before it was closed, reporsting it here to better the chances of an answer....

Is there a place where I can look and see the details of the messages sent before the accident?....I see that the discussion is using these a lot and can't seem to find them.

Can't really just turn on TV for reliable information in this matter since we all know how knowledgeable mass media is in regards to aviation.



Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 63247 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
They found the fin - but not the whole tail section.

True, but the possibilities get better of finding the rest. I'd be curious to know at what depth was the tail found. I'm on my break at work so I haven't had a chance to read all. Thanks!



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineGulfstream650 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 63305 times:

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/FOTOS/080609/foto_1.JPG
http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/FOTOS/080609/foto_3.jpg

As a new thread has been started, just thought that these should be posted again as it is a significant development in the search.



I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
User currently offlineNormie999 From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 62715 times:

(This may have already been mentioned but I'm afraid I haven't time to check up-thread - so apologies and ignore.)

What of Air France in all this? Its safety record is not unblemished. There was the AF near-disaster in Toronto and already an apparent admission on the airline's part that there have been problems with their A330 fleet's speed indicators. And there's more listed here

http://insidetraveller.co.uk/blog/?p=123

which adds up to at least a possible cause for concern if you ask me.


User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4158 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 62676 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
They found the fin - but not the whole tail section. The fin could easily have snapped off the plane with the rest of the empennage still connected to the fuse.

Its certainly a great step forward.

It is an interesting picture. From the logs I saw on yahoo, and the pictures, I am wondering if the plane somehow lost the tail fin and went into a flat spin. Purely speculative on my part, and way to early to call it, but it might explain the speed errors and the loss of flight controls.

also the below article, makes me wonder if the control rod epoxy could have been involved.


http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legi...426D5CA25736A0082D448?OpenDocument

[Edited 2009-06-08 10:40:04]


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 62464 times:

Wow, that's a clean break of the tail. It reminds me a lot of the way the AA 587 tail snapped clean. Virtually NO damage to the tail, no jagged edges where it snapped off.

Does anyone know how different the fastening structures for the A330 tail is from the A300 tail?

UAL


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2658 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 62380 times:

NAV20: PLEASE just look at post 258 above, UALWN.

I did. So? What does that picture prove?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4494 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 62280 times:
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"Unfortunately, air crash investigations in France are in the hands of the government "

so is there any crash investigation body which is not government run in some form or fashion???

and when was the last time there were criminal indictments by authorities in Anglo Saxon countries for an air crash??
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-begins-after-14-years-476407.html



if you think AF is dangerous, that would probably rule out 99% of all the airlines flying as being even more dangerous!

walk or drive to your next destination if you think AF is unsafe.


User currently offlineMrBasiat From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 62476 times:

Here is a little something i whipped up, it's not perfect by any means.

eta: the black area in the lower part is the diver that was on it at the time.


Big version: Width: 432 Height: 432 File size: 66kb


[Edited 2009-06-08 11:24:44]

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 62081 times:

Have I missed something? I don't see any obvious evidence of pre-crash delamination of the rudder. I'm not saying there isn't any, just that I'm not asking for the investigation to be concluded on the strength of those pictures.

User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3522 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 61984 times:

It's not quite a clean break. It is not the same as the AA flight 587 break, which was a clean break right down to the bolts. This looks like the fin structure itself failed at some point above the bolts, which still doesn't really prove anything one way or another except that it's probably got nothing to do with what happened to flight 587 (seems like every theory that ever comes up here has to be about how every new crash is just like some previous crash, when in reality most accidents these days are for novel reasons that nobody ever considered before).


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineSlinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 791 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 61852 times:



Quoting MrBasiat (Reply 11):
Here is a little something i whipped up, it's not perfect by any means.

Thanks, so that's a pretty dirty break not a clean break?


User currently offlineMarkalot From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 61840 times:



Quoting MrBasiat (Reply 11):
Here is a little something i whipped up, it's not perfect by any means.

It does help show how the break wasn't all that clean.



M a r k
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 61720 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Agree with many that the discover of the big portion of the tail is very good as it can lead more easily to access the voice recorders as well as the other parts of the plane.

Quoting MrBasiat (Reply 11):

Wow, nice work !



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9570 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 61720 times:

Wow I didn't know they had found the tail. At first I thought the entire tail section was found, including the APU section and the vertical stabilizors but they only found the tail. For a moment I was hoping they would have the FDR as these are usually located in the tail section  Sad

I hope more will be recovered of this aircraft to determine the exact cause of the chain of events that lead to this tragic accident.

Best regards,

A388


User currently offlineFlood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 61483 times:



Quoting MrBasiat (Reply 11):
it's not perfect by any means.

Nicely done and welcome to a.net.


User currently offlineJtamu97 From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 658 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 61498 times:

Would such a large piece of debris indicate the plane broke up upon impact or very close to the water surface? I find it fascinating that such a large piece would be intact after hitting the water from close to cruising altitude.

Later,
J

[Edited 2009-06-08 11:05:46]


Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 61121 times:

That piece could certainly have snapped off early in the impact with the water, however, it could easily have snapped off during a descent or even in flight.

We just have absolutely no way of knowing without expert analysis.

NS


User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 948 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 60978 times:

Yeah, we still don't know when it broke off. I guess they can tell something when they examine it though.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 60864 times:



Quoting MrBasiat (Reply 11):
Here is a little something i whipped up, it's not perfect by any means.

Very nice work for your first post! Not sure what the underlying structures are there. It appears to be a clean break, but not at the base of the tail.

Now, this is the 2nd airbus widebody of which I am aware that has had its vertical stabilizer found separate from the rest of the plane. I know the circumstances were a bit different from that AA A300 that came down out of JFK, but it's enough to make you go "hmmm..."


User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8430 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 60699 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting MrBasiat (Reply 11):
Here is a little something i whipped up, it's not perfect by any means.

- Nice work!

Certainly shows it's not a clean break, the similarity to AA587 should end here.

Shows the plane was under a great deal of stress, I imagine the remainder is stuck firmly to the fuselage, if still in one piece at that point.

It will be interesting to see what else of the fuselage and wings is recovered size wize.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333,342
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 60712 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
Now, this is the 2nd airbus widebody of which I am aware that has had its vertical stabilizer found separate from the rest of the plane. I know the circumstances were a bit different from that AA A300 that came down out of JFK, but it's enough to make you go "hmmm..."

Not passing judgement one way or the other, it's important to remember that the tails on these AC are composite, so finding them separate from the rest of the fuselage isn't all *that* surprising. They will float when much of the structure will sink. Given their different materials and tendancy to float vs sink for the empenage, I don't find it surprising at all they are found separately.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
25 Jtamu97 : Yes I agree we have no way of telling I was just shocked but also relieved to see such a large piece of debris. This hopefully will allow quite a bit
26 Boeing747_600 : There is no doubt cause for concern on several fronts, but an extremely biased report of dubious pedigree like the one in the link you provided is no
27 Rafaelyyz : Has the comparison to Birgenair Flt 301 been made yet on this forum? ...suspected blocked pitot tube, ASIs disagree, rudder ratio warnings, overspeed
28 A388 : Nice explanation and I would agree on that too. A388
29 Post contains links EA772LR : With 16 bodies found, at least there are 16 families so far which can have some sort of closure. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090608/ap_on_re_la_am_ca
30 Dougbr2006 : Correct term would be vertical fin assembly. Tail generally relates to a hoizontal plain such as on a bird (the tail plane with elevators) on an airc
31 Rbgso : Something doesn't look right....in the two pictures in reply 5, it looks like there is more missing in the top picture. The bottom picture looks like
32 DocLightning : Bouyancy differences alone aren't going to rip the tail off the rest of the empennage. My guess is that this snapped off either in the air or on impa
33 Philhyde : Do you mean separated, or found in a different location? If the latter, I don't think you can really draw that conclusion at this point.
34 Post contains links Markalot : I found an article related to AA587 that mentioned another flights experience with stalling and vertical stabilizer stress. It also includes a small p
35 Famfflores : Hum, I guess optical illusion. The "clean break" you reffer is in fact the rudder border. Look at the yellow stars that forms a circle. They appear i
36 777STL : While it very well *might* have happened that way, there's no evidence to suggest that at this point. It's worth mentioning that if the vertical stab
37 Flaps : Looking at the actual photo it looks to me like a very clean break right at the fuselage attach points. The material at the base of the fin looks lit
38 FAEDC3 : If the fin got severed early on the crash, and fell from an altitude higher that 30K ft. Wouldn't it have more damage? I mean, just the dynamic forces
39 Mestrugo : A while ago during this thread series, somebody mentioned this plane has been involved in a ground collision. Was that confirmed or it was only a rumo
40 Post contains images Dougbr2006 : I would say that they have found almost all the fin see the picture, you can see part of the fairing that connects to the fuselage, so if there is a p
41 Boeing747_600 : Despite the very impressive artwork by MrBasiat, I would withhold judgement on whether it was a clean break or not, until we get a clear look at the
42 Osiris30 : I didn't mean that floation difference caused it to break off. Impact or stress could have snapped it off at any point. My point was more along the l
43 Post contains links MaxJack : Thanks for this informative forum. Regarding AF A332...Flying into turbulence seems to be somethimes tricky... Source link: http://www.google.se/searc
44 MrBasiat : just to be clear, the slightly yellow areas at the bottom of my mockup seem to be "skin" and not structural i also could really not determine whether
45 Gonzalo : BINGO !!!! It's good to see I'm not the only one who think every crash is different, and excluding very few exceptions ( like the rudder problems in
46 Post contains links Spacecadet : As I said earlier, it does not appear to be similar in anything but the most superficial way. Here is the AA 587 stabilizer: http://www.iasa.com.au/f
47 OA260 : Yes thanks for posting , I had not seen this development. The iconic tail fin really brings it home. Very true, I hope they find alot more for the fa
48 Soon7x7 : Three days ago I suggested to my girlfriend that I bet the vertical fin would be found in one piece. She asked me why, and I reminded her of AA 587. I
49 Post contains links Khobar : But what is the vicinity? "The search area covers 124,300 square kilometers (77,220 square miles), an area nearly as big as the country of Romania."
50 Slinky09 : Yesterday, the S&R team news was that they had also spotted numerous other bodies. Today we have no news of this, but the tail fin was found. I'm conf
51 Boeing747_600 : If I had to hazard a guess I would say that it broke off just at or very slightly above the fin-fuselage fairing in what appears to be a fairly clean
52 Markalot : If you had a piece of airplane that had a certain failure point and you re-designed it to be stronger then the failure point would move, possibly to
53 Osiris30 : *IF* that happened, it's not really fair to fault the material. Let's not forget the ALUMINIUM comets that fell apart in the skies when they first fl
54 Dfanucci : Before everyone starts making comparisons to the AA flight and the Fin and drawing conclusions based off that, remember the Perpignan 320's Fin was fo
55 Hiflyer : Tell you what...these pix are circulating thru American's pilots rapidly...3 of them forwarded the pix to me quickly along with some pointed comments
56 Oakmad : Exactly! It all comes down to how its designed and engineered. I always point to the Robert Kubica Montreal crash in 2007 to show how strong CFRP can
57 Post contains links Aerosol : VS unrelated crash (320 perpignan) : http://avherald.com/h?article=410c9cec here you can clearly see the VS floating although not reason for the crash
58 Carls : Can you elaborate a bit more? I would love to read what your elements are to get to that conclusion.
59 Canoecarrier : At this point I think if they found part of the wing first, half of you would be arguing wing failure. I'm willing to be patient and wait until more a
60 ER757 : I don't think it's fair to draw a comparision to the AA tail fin separation and this one just yet. There is nothing that positively would lead one to
61 Slinky09 : Or how many types of planes of other manufacturer's have succumbed to one type of incident over another. I do not want to exacerbate this debate, but
62 Post contains links Soon7x7 : Not saying fin seperation caused this event however the fact that it is in relatively good condition whereas so far as we know, not much else has rem
63 Ikramerica : If you read that article, you see again that the French authorities had warned right off the bat that getting data from the black boxes was unlikely,
64 Flood : No kidding. It's sad to see how, in an aviation-enthusiast website, apparently some people are getting off at the sight of an intact airbus tail fin
65 TSS : Unless I've missed a posted photo or two, thus far we've only seen the starboard side of the vertical stabilizer of AF447. The port side of the same p
66 Post contains links Sniffmom : Yesterday, FAB stated that starting from today, they would only be giving out information twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening Br
67 Tugger : More likely try a sheet of aluminum (yes I know the tail is CFRP and if you have a sheet of that around use that), you can pick up a sheet at Home De
68 Gigneil : So far as we know? We don't know ANYTHING except the plane crashed. NS
69 Rafaelyyz : Both probably encountered substantial turbulence. That's a similarity. I wouldn't discount anything yet at this stage. Even assigning probability at
70 Flood : Given the surface area and In strong winds? I doubt that.
71 BWilliams : Pardon my ignorance if this is incorrect, but if the vert-stab came off at altitude and was the cause of the accident, wouldn't we see ACARS messages
72 Slinky09 : If you read, several millenia of post ago, about the cultural differences between the continental European attitude and that of the US, doubt about f
73 Rj777 : Actually, I don't remember where I read it, but I think part of the wing section WAS found before the tail fin.
74 Hiflyer : My question was clearly not as to the cause....it was in relation to other aircraft incidents I do not recall seeing the Vertical stab clean off as m
75 Soon7x7 : Understood,..reading all the same reports as everyone else but I find the photo of an intact V/fin very interesting given the altitude this aircraft
76 Tugger : Try it. Of course there are many variables, a big one is the rudder assy and the affect it would have. Key thing is that it is not like a sheet of pa
77 757GB : That does make sense from the way I see it. Far from trying to establish an accurate timeline, what you are pointing to would be in line with a separ
78 Post contains images Flood : Or Bigen's 757, for that matter.
79 Canoecarrier : Show me a picture of a large wing section intact from this flight, if there was one we would have seen it already.
80 Canoecarrier : We know a few things but not enough to know why it crashed. There is some information available, but really speculation is all we hear. Actually, we
81 Khobar : None has been released, but part of the wing has been recovered. The tail section is described as being "one of a number of large pieces" of wreckage
82 Post contains images Iberiadc852 : Similar senstaion I had about the top fin. I thought it was some part of the tail missing till I upsized the image, and discovered the optical illusi
83 Post contains links Slarty : http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-France/Airbus-A330-203/0613700/L/ http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-France/Airbus-A330-203/1270722/L/ Two of the b
84 Post contains links CasInterest : Speculation is all anyone has now. Until more evidence presents itself, it is what everyone, including the investigators are going off of. Albeit It
85 Pihero : I agree, but aren't we seeing already the difference of compression /crumpling, cracking etc... at the base of the rudder, i.e the aft part of the fi
86 Ellehammer09 : I'm nothing near an expert, but to me it looks as if the tail fin could have been separated from the plane before impact. If still attached to the fu
87 Post contains links and images Pygmalion : these are interior panels (look to be stowbin support structure, insulation and wiring.) The orange ducting are ECS ducts and that appears to be a duc
88 Mir : That's true for any airplane, not just a 330. -Mir
89 Soon7x7 : Given the ability of the V/fin to survive some awful accidents and float, might be a good idea to install black boxes in the fin, as they are already
90 Post contains links Sniffmom : 24 bodies now found, according to FAB. http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?mostra=3147
91 Desh : Its better than what I have seen - thanks much Thanks for injecting some humour in this morbid (not intentionally so) thread... Thats what I was thin
92 Bristolflyer : So the tail is composite, that's what makes it float, right? How many of the other big parts are composite? I'm thinking not many, so most would proba
93 Pygmalion : Its not the composites that allows it to float. It has sealed cavities that entrap air and those allow it to float as long as those are not breached.
94 Guillermo : I think that this part was detached from the fuselage when it reached the bottom of the ocean, or in the way to by impacting with some elevation of th
95 7gm7 : That guy is pretty hard-core doing such a salvage operation in a Speedo.
96 LH526 : Atlantic ocean around these latitudes is warmer than you would imagine, although I doubt the Brasil Navy would recrute pussies for such duties
97 Starlionblue : Interesting. However one could perhaps assume that if worse comes to worst, the fin would break off before the tailcone? Gotta show off those pecs.
98 Soon7x7 : The torque box is the component of the vertical fin that is carbon fibre...the leading edge from the fuselage skin up to the fin tip is a giant chann
99 Khobar : 51% of Air India 182, also a Boeing 747, was recovered from the ocean surface - floating.
100 Post contains links and images Tugger : I posted this in the previous thread, but its actually quite warm, has to be for hurricanes to form and this is the season. http://www.weather.com/ma
101 Halophila : Sometimes it's just downright inconvenient to swim under a floating structure in a wetsuit. Plus, as others have pointed out, the water in that area
102 Soon7x7 : I never saw much photo evidence of that crash, I just remember a cowl shot with a logo on it. What was the flight # of that incident, do you remember
103 474218 : If the vertical stabilizer/rudder departed the aircraft at altitude it would fall like a leaf. When hydraulic power is removed from the rudder servo/
104 RFields5421 : It could not have gone to the bottom, nor very deep. Though the honeycomb is very strong, it cannot stand up to the thousands of pounds per square in
105 Bramble : Very handy image to have. Well done. I feel some people are being very quick to point to a possible problem with Airbus tail assembly.
106 Ellehammer09 : Or would it at stages of its descent have been gliding on its broadside, acting like a leave, falling from a tree, and slowing it down?
107 Jerblaine : If you look closely at the tears on the edges of the fin in the pics, it looks like a black tear....perhaps from fire?
108 Tugger : I keep seeing this analogy of a leaf or a sheet of paper but the key thing is the mass is so very different. At least a leaf does have more rigidity
109 Jbernie : Maybe something for Zeke or Mandala499 to respond to... The way I am seeing it is that the fin more than likely broke off when the aircraft was in a f
110 Casinterest : It wouldn't be the first time. Please remember that AA and the Airline Piliots Association where at odds with Airbus's handling of the A300 Rudder is
111 MrBasiat : as i noted earlier, the black was from the recovery diver standing on the VS. and just to be clear, that pic shows the waterlogged exterior skin atta
112 JBirdAV8r : From my perspective, it looks like a mechanical tear. That's all composite back there. It probably happened when it either left the airplane or hit t
113 Canoecarrier : Any photos of the hijacked Ethiopian airbus that ditched? Maybe someone should compare the vertical stabilizer of that plane to the photos we have now
114 Starlionblue : Indeed. I shall paraphrase what someone said earlier: Crashes are typically something new.
115 Gatorman96 : I believe that was a 767-300...
116 RFields5421 : That plane was a Boeing B767-200 series aircraft.
117 FuturePilot16 : I have a question about the way you highlighted the stabilizer. If they found the vertical Stabilizer and it is turned extremely to the right, does t
118 TSAORD : I'm glad things are progressing. I can't wait until, if they can, find voice and date recorders. I don't know why but this just brought back all my fe
119 FAEDC3 : I don't know....I think that I have to agree with his next post, It makes sense that fluttering needs some flexibility and also the mass of the tail
120 Soon7x7 : Pretty obvious with all due respect, a problem with the v/fin does exist, regardless of the cause of the crash. If the fin were attached to the airfr
121 Desh : hmm ... I am no aerodynamics expert , but for sake of my understanding, take a piece of styrofoam and lead same dimensions (say 8X11X1/2 inches) , wo
122 Starlionblue : I think you mean the rudder, which is attached to the fin. Anyway the direction of the rudder when found is not indicative of the direction it was du
123 ULMFlyer : No, it does not! Damn! Part 13, was going so well, with nice contributions from Pihero, Zeke, Mandala, ThrottleHold. Now, a pic of the fin is release
124 Osiris30 : They kind "float" if the surface area is big enough (I can't really describe the action correctly0, not a piece of paper agreed, but not a brick eith
125 Post contains links Khobar : Flight 182. But I misread the info - it wasn't 51% of the plane, it was 51% of the recovered wreckage. They only recovered a small fraction of the ai
126 Gigneil : You have no way of knowing that, so I'm pretty sure everyone here would prefer you refrain from saying it. NS
127 JBirdAV8r : Sure it would! It's happened before, besides. The empennage/tail is the most likely area to survive a crash more or less intact.
128 Theredbaron : First it was a bump on land a a bad repair... Then the weather Then the adirus Then the pitot that failed Now the Rudder failed I wonder what will be
129 Post contains links Slarty : I just read a recent AP report that addresses that specific issue: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...gnahAFcEgwJZ4WKGkVz9Dgq5wD98MRVQO0 " ... Wi
130 FuturePilot16 : Yea, I figured that with the loss of hydraulic pressure, the wind can push it anywhere. So does that mean the vertical stabilizer can't tell us anyth
131 Canoecarrier : Thanks for the info. I just thought an at-sea ditching caught on film might give us an idea how the vertical stabilizer comes off.
132 Khobar : And you are ignoring the flaw in the control system that allowed the rudder movement to happen in the first place. However, you are correct - composi
133 JBirdAV8r : That's a gross generalization and bad analysis from the ERAU professor. The aircraft may very well have broken up in flight but to say what he did is
134 Gigneil : That being said, the mechanism in this plane is completely and totally different.... and the composite tail technology 20 years more advanced. NS
135 FlyABR : just because there is newer tech doesn't necessarily mean it was employed on the A330 tail vs the A300 tail. would be interesting to have a definitiv
136 Gonzalo : OK, but.... so what ?? Was that fracture the root cause of the crash or just one fracture among others when the aircraft broke apart for another reas
137 Gigneil : Perhaps not... but the A330-200's tail is completely different than the rest of the A330/340 line - and wasn't developed until 1996. I can't help but
138 NAV20 : Iberiadc852, many thanks for the excellent analysis of the rudder angle. I mentioned on the previous thread (before the photograph of the fin appeared
139 Post contains links NAV20 : Further to the above, most of this article is about Mr. Waldock, but lower down it says this: "Peter Goelz, a former managing director of the National
140 N49wa : 14 threads read and my first comment on this incident. I finally had to say something. Speculation on the cause if fine, that's what we are here for,
141 Post contains links Scipio : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-fin-among-recovered-wreckage.html If you compare these two pictures, it seems that the angle of the rudder in
142 Starlionblue : It can probably tell us a lot, but perhaps not about the position of the rudder at the time of the event. Not so much flaw as "imperfect design". The
143 HNL-Jack : Knew a couple of AA 300-600 pilots who didn't have a whole lot of faith in the structure of the rudder assembly under certain conditions. While I may
144 Post contains links and images Mandala499 : That's life, and that is normal (albeit tiresome) progress of an aircrash in a forum... Let's get this straight on some parts, and bent on some... 1.
145 Post contains links Tugger : There are many versions of it on YouTube, here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqKdVo_IcGs But this will give us as much an idea on the AF447 t
146 Tietkej : Oh, please. This really isn't productive. Sure, I can see where you're coming from. But what's happening here is that we're taking these two pictures
147 KingFriday013 : Thank you for that post, I learned so much from it. Could it be possible that they were receiving an incorrect airspeed - one that was slower than th
148 Khobar : I agree. The NTSB disagrees with your assessment.
149 Astuteman : Pretty obvious with all due respect, that this tells us nothing other than your jaundiced view.... No. From now on you can guarantee it will be tailf
150 Mandala499 : OK, speed reading reduction can occur as part of the transition from phase 1 to phase 2 of the accident. We need the FDR for that and look at IAS (an
151 SstSomeday : Yes - the basically intact rudder makes me wonder (speculation, I know) if the possibility exists that excessive force was applied, via the rudder, o
152 Guillermo : This would be true only if you are talking about a closed, sealed, hollow structure; in that case the differential pressure between exterior and inte
153 Tietkej : I agree, this part of the picture is odd. The damage here looks different from a "ripping off". It does almost look like fire damage or something sim
154 Mandala499 : Well, let's look at the 737 rudder case... the rudder application didn't snap the tailfin off but rendered the aircraft uncontrollable. That's why we
155 Mandala499 : I think I need to clarify that the phases mentioned above are not Airbus Flight Phases, but terms some use within an accident / incident investigation
156 UALWN : I am truly amazed at the lack of restraint some people show here. Have you read any of the discussion about rudder issues here? Have you read about t
157 BrouAviation : I don't understand why the so-called Airbus- or FBW-bashers are bashed at so largely here. I fundamental disagree with Airbus using FBW for controllin
158 Astuteman : Because they usually display an extraordinay amount of ignorance or lack of understanding of both the differences, and similarities between Airbus FB
159 Post contains links NAV20 : SstSomeday, the Rudder Travel Limiter on the A300 works not by directly restricting the movement of the rudder itself but by reducing the travel of t
160 BrouAviation : I actually stated I would remain silent. The statement was actually an example of an opinion which sure would get bashed here at the forums. Although
161 Astuteman : Be very interesting to see how that translates into comments on the "all CFRP" 787.... Fortunately, most of us can apply a little more balance..... R
162 TristarSteve : The B777 yokes (and rudder pedals) are directly linked to transducers that do the same job as the transducers in the Airbus sidestick. The only diffe
163 Hb88 : I think you'll find that the 777 uses a variant of FBW "despite" using a conventional control yoke mechanism. The fact of using a sidestick is neithe
164 NAV20 : I think a lot of the problem has to do with the two meanings that FBW has acquired. It USED just to mean using electrical means to link the controls
165 Sebolino : Had the A300-600 a FBW system, it wouldn't have crashed on New-York ... You will always find situations where another system would have avoided a pro
166 MBJ2000 : What you're saying is that, an A330 in Alternate Law will behave exactly as a 777: pure FBW that will let you do all the silly things, I guess even w
167 Ogre727 : It is sad to see the tone this discussion has taken. People and their biases and egos are really not above the circumstances, and that is sad. Althoug
168 NAV20 : 29 according to our evening TV news, Ogre727. As to the timescale, I guess months - it must be mainly small boat work in Atlantic conditions.
169 Sniffmom : Thank you for the work you put into the above mentioned post. Very detailed and interesting, indeed.
170 TristarSteve : NO. ( Concorde did however, but it was never used.) B777 has about the same level of mechanical back up as an A320/330. Enough to fly in a straight l
171 WILCO737 : Guys, I just had to deleted several posts in this thread. We will NOT accept an A vs. B war here! Discuss it properly and don't get personal or make a
172 Kimberlyrj : Hi I would just like to ask a quick question. I was watching BBC News this morning and they said that Air France are changing (upgrading) the ‘speed
173 Hardiwv : US Airways is doing the same. And the Office of the President of Brazil sent its Airbus Business Jet (ABJ) for maintenance yesterday (at TAM Maintena
174 Starlionblue : Very good point. "FBW" nowadays has become rather too all-encompassing a concept. I attempted earlier to make some definitions that I hope may help d
175 TCFC424 : So, as most of us who have followed air incident investigations are well aware, typically an aviation incident isn't the result of one issue or failur
176 BrouAviation : The first is very true. About the latter however, how limited it might be: statistiscs, probability, proven reliability (also about the past, still v
177 Starlionblue : They are not used to measure aircraft safety that way, at least not by the experts. They don't say "aircraft x is less safe than aircraft y by z perc
178 David L : I'd just like to request that we leave aside the issue of national/geographical bias and point out that, while such a bias may exist to a certain degr
179 FlySSC : Sorry for you Erik ... but It happened already to ... Air France back in 1962 : AF lost two of its B707 : June 3rd 1962 : F-BHSM operating ORY-NYC-AT
180 Soon7x7 : No, I won't refrain... As a matter of fact I have seen close up what water impact to a 747 does...I've seen it completely disform P&W JT-9's. I've se
181 Astuteman : I'd be interested to know if you can find a commercial aircraft type that has gone into service in the last 20 years that doesn't apply this principl
182 LTBEWR : Much like the story of the 'Blind Men and the Elephant' we only have limited info that some of us are making conclusions about the cause of this loss
183 Post contains links Logos : Here's a nicely balanced article by the BBC that brings it back to the reality (however depressing that may be) that we really still know next to noth
184 Nomadd22 : Hate to beat the rudder limit issue to death, but has anyone ever figured out what happens when you get the rudder limit fault indication caused by ba
185 Post contains images NAV20 : Thanks for the various definitions, StarlionBlue - they very accurately reflect the point I was trying to get over. I did say 'as far as I know.'  
186 Post contains images Iberiadc852 : Well, I did the same with the other photo and corrected the first one's remarks (not so excellent NAV20, but thanks), and taking in acount the differ
187 A388 : Maybe this has been asked already and pardon me for my little knowledge on this but is it possible to have the FDR data being send "on-line" in the cl
188 Post contains links GlenP : For those who have been asking about the pitot tube sensor replacement initiated by AF, they've just posted this statement on their website: http://al
189 Kiwiandrew : with respect there is a difference between you venturing your opinion that the fin would not have survived and your making the above statement as if
190 NAV20 : Gosh, yes....... The dead giveaway is that the trailing edge of the rudder is above water in both cases. Obvious in the second picture, not so obviou
191 FlySSC : I already posted it in French. Here it is in English and Portuguese. I Think some of our A.Net "Experts" should read it carefully ... : Press release
192 NAV20 : Thanks, FlySSC. My impression is that Air France have so far done everything they can; particularly in view of the fact that no-one - not even the man
193 Jcs17 : 1. Incorrect. We don't know that. It's not like you've got a 500 mile long cloud in the ITCZ reaching 50k feet. There are usually large gaps in betwe
194 LTC8K6 : I thought it was some sort of floatation bag the divers used either to raise up the piece or to keep it from sinking.
195 NA : Wellknown airline owner, pilot and former F1-champion Niki Lauda is quoted saying that around the time AF447 disappeared about 40 other airliners were
196 Kempa : Is it possible that the pilot adjusted course to aim for a gap between two towering CBs, only to find out that the gap was disappearing quickly? If t
197 Sxb : Hello, I have been following the different topics and found them very interesting (I am not an airline specialist), I have heard a few times that the
198 JBirdAV8r : I don't see why you're lumping all the people trying to link the AA 587 disaster to be "dumb Americans". You've often done this in other threads and
199 Kiwiandrew : and how exactly does he know this ?
200 Soon7x7 : Yes Sir, based on my eyewitness experience, having covered several major plane crashes, as a pilot, mechanic, and photojournalist..."it is only my op
201 Babybus : Doesn't Airbus send its new aircraft through severe turbulence to see its reaction before entering airline service? Surely data already exists to show
202 Iberiadc852 : Clarifying about what I have just posted, and now that I have thought about it better, I don't dare to confirm that the rudder being lifted against w
203 NAV20 : Iberiadc852, does your undoubted expertise extend to benig able to estimate the angle of the rudder deflection (assuming for the moment that it's jamm
204 Ellehammer09 : The subject has been discussed in earlier posts.. There is still no hard evidence, that the weather conditions along the flight path would or should
205 Soon7x7 : Wouldn't the counterbalance weights combined with the boyancy of the rudder be responsible for the pictured rudder position?
206 AA777223 : It all seems a little crazy to me that there is all this speculation about the tail section when it is one of only a very few pieces found thus far. D
207 Osiris30 : Probably. Yes, we should, but since everyone else has weighed in on the subject (I even think some brothers of everyone else have weighed in at this
208 NAV20 : On the evidence we have so far, the aeroplane dived from 35,000 feet to sea level in only about four minutes, AA777223. A descent rate in the region
209 NA : Well, he´s an insider, more than anyone on this forum I guess, being an airline owner and professional pilot for more than 25 years. He is certified
210 LTC8K6 : I have read just about every post and I am still unclear on how this is a known fact.
211 Post contains links HawkerCamm : The B787 is another step towards the Airbus approach with more flight envelope protection, reduced longitudinal static stability, and artificial flig
212 NA : I guess, you got something wrong here, thats no quote of mine.
213 Post contains links BOACVC10 : I don't want to ask this, but the issues of "bodies" being found, sadly makes me apprehensive to the extreme. Where are the bodies being collected fro
214 AVLNative : I should know better than to take anything in the press literally, but what are ‘speed monitors’? I suspect that they mean the pitot tube sensor
215 Post contains links Hardiwv : New press released posted by Brazil Air Force: http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?mostra=3151 PRESS RELEASE 21 The Brazilian Navy Command and
216 Oly720man : Flight testing is under controlled conditions so you know what response is a reaction to what input. I'm not sure anything would be gained by deliber
217 Rfields5421 : At a certain air speed almost any aircraft will begin to come apart. The most obvious example is if an aircraft crosses the speed of sound and the fu
218 Nomadd22 : That's about 105mph. You can't get much farther from a power dive than that. A simple engine out, no control freefall would be faster than that, as w
219 Sniffmom : If Mr Lauda is the professional he's construed to be, would he really go on record blaming the pilots with this little information known? Things can
220 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : TP had replaced theirs earlier, starting from February 2008, a Portuguese newspaper wrote today. It was only necessary for the 4 aircraft they bought
221 HawkerCamm : Kind off. Its called airbrakes! To decend an aircraft requires more drag than thrust which results in potential energy being converted to maintain ai
222 NAV20 : Please re-read what I actually said, Nomadd22. Which was:- Apology for the misreading will be courteously appreciated and acknowledged. And no hard f
223 AA777223 : Thank you for your informative summary, NAV20. I am aware that info would thus far dictate this, however, we have probably recovered less than 1% of
224 Dragon6172 : Planes do not need to be missing a control surface to be out of control, however an out of control plane may lose a control surface due to excessive
225 LTC8K6 : Not me, the board did that by itself.
226 Iberiadc852 : In a very rudimentary way, I have "measured" that the actual angle of the rudder that can be deduced from the first photo is at least greater than 18
227 Baroque : I will go a bit further than Osiris and say undoubtedly. From a distance, it seems to me that trying to work out the history and fate of all the othe
228 Rolfen : Bodies float. Pieces of metal dont. Even though, it should be a matter of weeks at most before they pull out the FDRs from the ocean depths.
229 Viscount724 : Pan Am had 5 fatal 707 accidents in 9 months in 1973/74.
230 NA : While of cause jounalists try to twist everything to sound more sensational, what Lauda said was that, unless the black box delivers contrary data, t
231 SEPilot : Too slow, the plane stalls. Too fast, it breaks up. At high altitude the window between those speeds is not very high. We don't actually know this. W
232 Comorin : Unintended comic relief is also being provided by some indomitable, voluble, fawning and eventually tedious posters. I wish the mods could nudge them
233 WILCO737 : We are watching this thread and deleting a whole bunch of posts. It is not easy, as it is growing fast and I don't think anybody scares away the prof
234 Rolfen : I dont see the problem, as long as he uses the word "I believe". I dont see anything wrong with him stating whatever beliefs or opinion he has, as lo
235 XT6Wagon : I'm quite sure that it was stated that the FBW Airbus use a varible ratio. Yes the varible stop is stupid and dangerous compared to varible ratio...
236 Post contains links CasInterest : Below is an impressive analysis with Graphics of the weather conditions on the extrapolated plot of the Plane from it's own coordinate systems. It ap
237 Osteogenesis : Could you please explain how you come to that conclusion?
238 Sebolino : We have no evidence of these 4 minutes dive, as you say. And I don't see any misreading in Nomadd22 post, but I may have a language problem (I don't
239 Phollingsworth : Maybe Mandala499 can clarify, but I believe the A330-200 revised fully FBW rudder is similar to that used on the A340-5/600s. Is this correct? If it
240 JBirdAV8r : I don't. Just because the aircraft may or may not have entered an area of menacing-colored blobs doesn't mean a thing. They're trying to read a lot i
241 UPSMD11 : This type of event happened to me on a domestic DL flight last summer. I was flying from DFW-ATL-SDF and as I was monitoring the flights between DFW
242 YWG : As for all the speculation on here about the rudder and vert. stab., I'm 110% positive it had nothing to do with the crash. The various stresses of hi
243 Sniffmom : Is reporting turbulence evidence of wilfully entering a storm? Is ending up in a storm evidence of a pilot mistake or could there be other factors le
244 Iberiadc852 : Theoretically yes, but I don't know the weights involved, though I tend to think they should be considerable to be underwater and besides be able to
245 CasInterest : Those blobs are menacing colored for a reason. Thunderstorms are some of nature's most powerful atmospheric events, and to go trifiling through one i
246 David L : Good question. From the publicly available information, we know: 1. ACARS messages were sent over a 4 minute period. 2. The aircraft descended from 3
247 JBirdAV8r : From a CABIN altitude perspective that's correct. Not necessarily aircraft vertical speed.
248 WILCO737 : Even if you depart with minimum fuel required you have the so called "contingency fuel" which is something between 15- 20 minutes of flight time. Thi
249 WILCO737 : 1000fpm cabin rate would hurt in the ears pretty much already. The aircraft itself can do more. The highest I saw were 7000fpm rate of descent. Not f
250 Osteogenesis : It could also be posible that the message that the cabin pressure was droping was send while at FL 350.
251 RFields5421 : For one thing the pilots do not have access to those level charts at the time of the loss of the bird. The decisions about routing had to be made alm
252 Pihero : I think it's great time to review all that we know about that flight. THE HISTORY AS WE KNOW SO FAR The AF 330-200 left Rio de Janeiro for Paris, with
253 CasInterest : I figured as much, but in reading the pilots comments on that weather site I posted, there is a lot of concern about why the ADF flight didn't report
254 WILCO737 : I hope we will know more when and if the CVR/ FDRs have been found. The area aroud the ITC can be very tricky. I made my own experience with it alrea
255 Phollingsworth : I cannot ascertain for sure since I am having trouble accessing the NTSB database. However, the FBW Airbus aircraft with the mechanically linked rudd
256 Osteogenesis : Is this really a fact? Have there really never been pitot tube issues on Boeing's? Are the exact same pitot tubes used on Airbus and Boeing models?
257 UALWN : And I guess you fail to realize that the rudder system on AA587 has very very little to do with that on AF447, as has been explained ad nauseam earli
258 Baroque : Indeed, which is more or less why this is IIRC my third contrib to all 14 threads. What seems to have diminished the value of the thread is that some
259 VirginFlyer : Sir, with respect, the reason you are raising hackles here (and it isn't just you, I might add) is that you are using what really is fairly tenuous e
260 David L : True. We don't know when it began descending. I'm only making an assumption that it didn't begin descending before the AP disconnect. Of course, it m
261 YWG : That was my point exactly. If you were to descend at 7000fpm, stuff would be flying everywhere and you would probably overspeed her. I was just point
262 WILCO737 : I did 7000fpm in a normal descent and nothing was flying aroud the cabin. it is a pretty much 1G standard maneouver. And if you decrease the ROD in a
263 Osteogenesis : People posting should also remember that relatives of the victims could be reading this to find out what happened. Out of respect one should not voic
264 WILCO737 : An emergency descent gives you pretty high descent rates, which you want to achieve. but you need to be careful and elaborate WHY you did that emerge
265 Phollingsworth : Different load build-up mechanism. The hard-overs are single loading so the loads end up pretty much static. The AA587 was a truly dynamic loading, w
266 Post contains links Moderators : Thread will be locked, please continue here: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4441222/ Thanks.
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