We understand that media reports are often littered with errors, especially regarding technical areas of aviation. While it may be worth pointing these out, please avoid having the discussion focus on these points - these will be considered off-topic contributions.
Please also remember that it will be likely that the media will be checking this thread; please try to make sure that your posts are conducive to a constructive discussion and are based on facts. Please try to steer away from wild speculation.
As ever, the forum rules apply; remember to focus on the topic in-hand and not other users.
The Forum Moderators.
Please use firstname.lastname@example.org to contact us.
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3131 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 64576 times:
Finding the tail of the crashed plane is a major breakthrough indeed...as the black boxes are generally located in the tail section, maybe this increases the possibility of finding them....but again, if the plane broke up before hitting the water, they could be quite far off....
Normie999 From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 63734 times:
(This may have already been mentioned but I'm afraid I haven't time to check up-thread - so apologies and ignore.)
What of Air France in all this? Its safety record is not unblemished. There was the AF near-disaster in Toronto and already an apparent admission on the airline's part that there have been problems with their A330 fleet's speed indicators. And there's more listed here
CasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 63695 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2): They found the fin - but not the whole tail section. The fin could easily have snapped off the plane with the rest of the empennage still connected to the fuse.
Its certainly a great step forward.
It is an interesting picture. From the logs I saw on yahoo, and the pictures, I am wondering if the plane somehow lost the tail fin and went into a flat spin. Purely speculative on my part, and way to early to call it, but it might explain the speed errors and the loss of flight controls.
also the below article, makes me wonder if the control rod epoxy could have been involved.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9546 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 63100 times:
Have I missed something? I don't see any obvious evidence of pre-crash delamination of the rudder. I'm not saying there isn't any, just that I'm not asking for the investigation to be concluded on the strength of those pictures.
Spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3674 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 63003 times:
It's not quite a clean break. It is not the same as the AA flight 587 break, which was a clean break right down to the bolts. This looks like the fin structure itself failed at some point above the bolts, which still doesn't really prove anything one way or another except that it's probably got nothing to do with what happened to flight 587 (seems like every theory that ever comes up here has to be about how every new crash is just like some previous crash, when in reality most accidents these days are for novel reasons that nobody ever considered before).
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10010 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 62739 times:
Wow I didn't know they had found the tail. At first I thought the entire tail section was found, including the APU section and the vertical stabilizors but they only found the tail. For a moment I was hoping they would have the FDR as these are usually located in the tail section
I hope more will be recovered of this aircraft to determine the exact cause of the chain of events that lead to this tragic accident.
Jtamu97 From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 658 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 62517 times:
Would such a large piece of debris indicate the plane broke up upon impact or very close to the water surface? I find it fascinating that such a large piece would be intact after hitting the water from close to cruising altitude.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 61883 times:
Quoting MrBasiat (Reply 11): Here is a little something i whipped up, it's not perfect by any means.
Very nice work for your first post! Not sure what the underlying structures are there. It appears to be a clean break, but not at the base of the tail.
Now, this is the 2nd airbus widebody of which I am aware that has had its vertical stabilizer found separate from the rest of the plane. I know the circumstances were a bit different from that AA A300 that came down out of JFK, but it's enough to make you go "hmmm..."
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 61731 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22): Now, this is the 2nd airbus widebody of which I am aware that has had its vertical stabilizer found separate from the rest of the plane. I know the circumstances were a bit different from that AA A300 that came down out of JFK, but it's enough to make you go "hmmm..."
Not passing judgement one way or the other, it's important to remember that the tails on these AC are composite, so finding them separate from the rest of the fuselage isn't all *that* surprising. They will float when much of the structure will sink. Given their different materials and tendancy to float vs sink for the empenage, I don't find it surprising at all they are found separately.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
: Yes I agree we have no way of telling I was just shocked but also relieved to see such a large piece of debris. This hopefully will allow quite a bit
: There is no doubt cause for concern on several fronts, but an extremely biased report of dubious pedigree like the one in the link you provided is no
: Has the comparison to Birgenair Flt 301 been made yet on this forum? ...suspected blocked pitot tube, ASIs disagree, rudder ratio warnings, overspeed
: Nice explanation and I would agree on that too. A388
: With 16 bodies found, at least there are 16 families so far which can have some sort of closure. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090608/ap_on_re_la_am_ca
: Correct term would be vertical fin assembly. Tail generally relates to a hoizontal plain such as on a bird (the tail plane with elevators) on an airc
: Something doesn't look right....in the two pictures in reply 5, it looks like there is more missing in the top picture. The bottom picture looks like
: Bouyancy differences alone aren't going to rip the tail off the rest of the empennage. My guess is that this snapped off either in the air or on impa
: Do you mean separated, or found in a different location? If the latter, I don't think you can really draw that conclusion at this point.
: I found an article related to AA587 that mentioned another flights experience with stalling and vertical stabilizer stress. It also includes a small p
: Hum, I guess optical illusion. The "clean break" you reffer is in fact the rudder border. Look at the yellow stars that forms a circle. They appear i
: While it very well *might* have happened that way, there's no evidence to suggest that at this point. It's worth mentioning that if the vertical stab
: Looking at the actual photo it looks to me like a very clean break right at the fuselage attach points. The material at the base of the fin looks lit
: If the fin got severed early on the crash, and fell from an altitude higher that 30K ft. Wouldn't it have more damage? I mean, just the dynamic forces
: A while ago during this thread series, somebody mentioned this plane has been involved in a ground collision. Was that confirmed or it was only a rumo
: I would say that they have found almost all the fin see the picture, you can see part of the fairing that connects to the fuselage, so if there is a p
: Despite the very impressive artwork by MrBasiat, I would withhold judgement on whether it was a clean break or not, until we get a clear look at the
: I didn't mean that floation difference caused it to break off. Impact or stress could have snapped it off at any point. My point was more along the l
: Thanks for this informative forum. Regarding AF A332...Flying into turbulence seems to be somethimes tricky... Source link: http://www.google.se/searc
: just to be clear, the slightly yellow areas at the bottom of my mockup seem to be "skin" and not structural i also could really not determine whether
: BINGO !!!! It's good to see I'm not the only one who think every crash is different, and excluding very few exceptions ( like the rudder problems in
: As I said earlier, it does not appear to be similar in anything but the most superficial way. Here is the AA 587 stabilizer: http://www.iasa.com.au/f
: Yes thanks for posting , I had not seen this development. The iconic tail fin really brings it home. Very true, I hope they find alot more for the fa
: Three days ago I suggested to my girlfriend that I bet the vertical fin would be found in one piece. She asked me why, and I reminded her of AA 587. I
: But what is the vicinity? "The search area covers 124,300 square kilometers (77,220 square miles), an area nearly as big as the country of Romania."
: Yesterday, the S&R team news was that they had also spotted numerous other bodies. Today we have no news of this, but the tail fin was found. I'm conf
: If I had to hazard a guess I would say that it broke off just at or very slightly above the fin-fuselage fairing in what appears to be a fairly clean
: If you had a piece of airplane that had a certain failure point and you re-designed it to be stronger then the failure point would move, possibly to
: *IF* that happened, it's not really fair to fault the material. Let's not forget the ALUMINIUM comets that fell apart in the skies when they first fl
: Before everyone starts making comparisons to the AA flight and the Fin and drawing conclusions based off that, remember the Perpignan 320's Fin was fo
: Tell you what...these pix are circulating thru American's pilots rapidly...3 of them forwarded the pix to me quickly along with some pointed comments
: Exactly! It all comes down to how its designed and engineered. I always point to the Robert Kubica Montreal crash in 2007 to show how strong CFRP can
: VS unrelated crash (320 perpignan) : http://avherald.com/h?article=410c9cec here you can clearly see the VS floating although not reason for the crash
: Can you elaborate a bit more? I would love to read what your elements are to get to that conclusion.
: At this point I think if they found part of the wing first, half of you would be arguing wing failure. I'm willing to be patient and wait until more a
: I don't think it's fair to draw a comparision to the AA tail fin separation and this one just yet. There is nothing that positively would lead one to
: Or how many types of planes of other manufacturer's have succumbed to one type of incident over another. I do not want to exacerbate this debate, but
: Not saying fin seperation caused this event however the fact that it is in relatively good condition whereas so far as we know, not much else has rem
: If you read that article, you see again that the French authorities had warned right off the bat that getting data from the black boxes was unlikely,
: No kidding. It's sad to see how, in an aviation-enthusiast website, apparently some people are getting off at the sight of an intact airbus tail fin
: Unless I've missed a posted photo or two, thus far we've only seen the starboard side of the vertical stabilizer of AF447. The port side of the same p
: Yesterday, FAB stated that starting from today, they would only be giving out information twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening Br
: More likely try a sheet of aluminum (yes I know the tail is CFRP and if you have a sheet of that around use that), you can pick up a sheet at Home De
: So far as we know? We don't know ANYTHING except the plane crashed. NS
: Both probably encountered substantial turbulence. That's a similarity. I wouldn't discount anything yet at this stage. Even assigning probability at
: Given the surface area and In strong winds? I doubt that.
: Pardon my ignorance if this is incorrect, but if the vert-stab came off at altitude and was the cause of the accident, wouldn't we see ACARS messages
: If you read, several millenia of post ago, about the cultural differences between the continental European attitude and that of the US, doubt about f
: Actually, I don't remember where I read it, but I think part of the wing section WAS found before the tail fin.
: My question was clearly not as to the cause....it was in relation to other aircraft incidents I do not recall seeing the Vertical stab clean off as m
: Understood,..reading all the same reports as everyone else but I find the photo of an intact V/fin very interesting given the altitude this aircraft
: Try it. Of course there are many variables, a big one is the rudder assy and the affect it would have. Key thing is that it is not like a sheet of pa
: That does make sense from the way I see it. Far from trying to establish an accurate timeline, what you are pointing to would be in line with a separ