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Denverdanny From United States, joined Sep 2007, 106 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52723 times:
To me it's interesting that there doesn't appear to be any damage to the leading edge of the vertical fin, or the fin itself for that matter. I'm not certain of the sturdiness of the materials, but that would seem to indicate that it departed the aircraft rather early in the chain of events. Wouldn't there be a whole lot more damage to it if the aircraft was coming apart and parts were flying back towards the tail? I don't really buy into the rudder thing though. I just think that it's curious that whole thing is intact and seemingly undamaged as it is. Kind of reminds me of the 707 that got whacked by a strong wind near Mt Fuji, snapping the fin off. Not saying it's that though. I'm sure the tail holds a clue that together with others will paint a broader picture. You have to add everything up. Would be interesting as well to see where it landed in relation to everything else.
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 6895 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52704 times:
Quoting Sniffmom (Reply 243): Is reporting turbulence evidence of wilfully entering a storm? Is ending up in a storm evidence of a pilot mistake or could there be other factors leading to this? Do we have any evidence that the storm caused the crash?For all we know, the FDR could show something completely different was the cause of the crash, a fact that Lauda acknowledges, and thus it should have kept him - if being a true professional - from concluding anything at this point in time. Well, that's my .02 kroner anyway.
Others diverted, but AF447 did not divert while they must have seen a massive storm on the screen.
As for the storm causing the crash or not, it must include a rare case of coincidence if at least the storm was not partly responsible for it. AF447 entered a severe storm with heavy turbulence minutes BEFORE the series of technical failure reports occured, so much is known. Thats why I think its highly likely the weather at least heavily contributed to the desaster. The direct reason to crash might have been a technical failure still.
413x3 From United States, joined Jul 2008, 1041 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52603 times:
I found it deeply troubling how quickly Air France blamed turbulence and lightning when in fact they were just starting the process of replacing sensors on the airplane due to them freezing up far too easily.
JBirdAV8r From United States, joined Jun 2001, 3009 posts, RR: 21 Reply 5, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52479 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 3): Others diverted, but AF447 did not divert while they must have seen a massive storm on the screen.
As for the storm causing the crash or not, it must include a rare case of coincidence if at least the storm was not partly responsible for it. AF447 entered a severe storm with heavy turbulence minutes BEFORE the series of technical failure reports occured, so much is known.
You cannot say this with any certainty! There is no conclusive evidence of this!
UALWN From Spain, joined Jun 2009, 255 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52484 times:
Quoting 413x3 (Reply 4): I found it deeply troubling how quickly Air France blamed turbulence and lightning when in fact they were just starting the process of replacing sensors on the airplane due to them freezing up far too easily.
Could you point us to the statement(s) where Air France blamed turbulence and lightning for the AF447 crash? Thank you.
DenverDanny From United States, joined Sep 2007, 106 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52474 times:
Quoting 413x3 (Reply 4): I found it deeply troubling how quickly Air France blamed turbulence and lightning when in fact they were just starting the process of replacing sensors on the airplane due to them freezing up far too easily.
I think you've confused the press with AF. I think officials have just been open about what it could be, but the press has been running with whatever it can grab.
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 1884 posts, RR: 63 Reply 9, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52463 times:
Repost from Part 14 :
I think it's great time to review all that we know about that flight.
THE HISTORY AS WE KNOW SO FAR
The AF 330-200 left Rio de Janeiro for Paris, with 228 souls on board and the flight plan would take it into Brazilian oceanic airspace.
Flew out of radar range in the direction of the ITCZ and last communication gave an ETA for position TASIL at which he never reported.
in some communication with AF services, the crew reported "forte turbulence", a non-technical term meaning above moderate but quite not severe a turbulence.
Then in the lapse of four minutes, a set of 24 technical messages were received on AF maintenace services telex.
Then silence.
Five days later, debris and human bodies were found by search/rescue teams at a position close to the assumed last telex transmission.
The airplane left Rio at/or close to maximum takeoff weight.
Some passegers were refused boarding , and survived.
2/ THE ACARS MESSAGES
There seems to be a common thought that these were the only data transmitted by the airplane, but it certainly is not the case : they only concern the messages sent by the airborne maintenamce computer to the maintenance department of the airline.
Missing are in a likely order : the initiation message / the electronic loadsheet / the out and off messages, meaning the off-chocks and takeoff times / a set of wx requests for en-route alternates and finally some communications with dispatch, all with different addresses and not mentioned on the maintenance summary telex. On the other hand, these messages should have a trace in the company OPS telex.
These maintenace messages are not equivalent to a recording on the FDR : they only state that at such and such time, a warning - WRN - was displayed on the ECAM screen, or that at such and such time, an advisory message was announced and the coding used derives from a standardised ATA list, with a coding going deep into the origin of the warning but not available to anyone outside the technical departments of AF or Airbus as we can only see the chapter and item (the sub item coding is hidden)
This coding is similar to this (thanks to Mandala469 :
"
WRN/WN is Warning, FLR/FR is Failure Report.
34-22-25 - INDICATOR - ISIS (INTEGRATED STANDBY INSTRUMENT SYSTEM)
34-43-00 - TRAFFIC AND TERRAIN COLLISION AVOIDANCE SYSTEM
34-12-00 - AIR DATA/INERTIAL REFERENCE SYSTEM (ADIRS) ((ADIRU & CDU))
34-10-00 - AIR DATA/INERTIAL REFERENCE SYSTEM (ADIRS)
27-90-00 - ELECTRICAL FLIGHT CONTROL SYSTEM (EFCS)
22-83-34 - FMGEC (FLIGHT MANAGEMENT, GUIDANCE AND ENVELOPE COMPUTER)
22-62-00 - FLIGHT ENVELOPE COMPUTATION
22-30-00 – AUTOTHRUST
27-23-00 - RUDDER AND PEDAL TRAVEL LIMITING ACTUATION
27-93-00 - FLIGHT CONTROL PRIMARY COMPUTER (FCPC)
34-11-15 - PROBE – PITOT
27-93-34 - FCPC (FLIGHT CONTROL PRIMARY COMPUTER)
21-31-00 - PRESSURE CONTROL AND MONITORING
27-91-00 - OPERATIONAL CONFIGURATION (F/Ctl Altn law)
"
In these ACARS messages, there is a clear pattern of erroneous data transmitted by the ADC - air data computers - to the flight instruments, the auto pilot and auto-thrust,the flight controls and the environment control.
AF and the BEA seem to have some information pointing at faulty dynamic pressure sensing and there is a deffinite finger pointing at the pitot tubes.
3/ THE COFFIN CORNER
A lot has been said about it, but let's put things in perspective :
Assuming a departure at max takeoff weight, the weight of the aircraft at the last transmission moment was around 210,000kg.
A quick look at the FCOM reveals that the optimum altitude would have been 36,200 ft and the max Alt 37,500 ft, give or take a few..
A lot of uninformed rubbish has been said on this forum about it : Jet upset, stall, Mach stall, flat spin...etc...
The reality is that, as usual, things are a lot more complicated : the computation of max alt depends on weight, temperature, regulatory limitations. Before giving the gist of it, let's make one thing clear : the coffin corner is the domain of test pilots and no airliner is ever going to go there by choice, as at the very least, the highest altitude will give the crew a 1.3 G margin over the raw speeds associated with the lift ceiling.
So, to sum up, these are the elements used for Max Alt computations : (Quote)
"As a result, the maximum recommended altitude indicated by the FMGS,
depending on aircraft weight and temperature conditions, is the lowest of the:
• Maximum certified altitude,
• Maximum cruise altitude,
• 1.3g buffet limited altitude,
• Climb ceiling ."(Unquote)
4/ THE VERTICAL FIN
I'm afraid nothing could honestly be derived from its observation.
Quite a few have been discovered on crashed airplanes as apparently intact as this one : the latest being the NZ 320 (a high speed dive into the sea ) off the coast of Perpignan, to which one could add the instances at Sotchi, the Birgenair 757...etc...
Those who think of a rudder influence should also add to their lists the instances of rudder hard-overs that the 737 fleet had experienced, instances which didn't show any rudder or fin detachment or in-flight break-up.
5/ THE PITOT TUBES MYSTERY
If there is a place where the word "mystery" applies, it is on that very subject : They are built by several well-known companies, designed and built and performing to the same stringent specifications and used by all manufacturers,, yet the problem only happens on Airbus aircraft.
Despite the certification tests, is there something different with those airplanes? is their aerodynamic field so diofferent from, say, a 777 ?. Has any other aircraft model, whatever the make, experienced similar occurrences ?....
6/ SO WHAT'S LEFT ?
Factually, not a lot... yet.
I'm sure that soon the first forensic examinations will bring some new facts, and so will the expert examination of the debris.
And then, retrieving the FDR and CVR ...
NA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 6895 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52247 times:
Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 5): Quoting NA (Reply 3):
Others diverted, but AF447 did not divert while they must have seen a massive storm on the screen.
As for the storm causing the crash or not, it must include a rare case of coincidence if at least the storm was not partly responsible for it. AF447 entered a severe storm with heavy turbulence minutes BEFORE the series of technical failure reports occured, so much is known.
You cannot say this with any certainty! There is no conclusive evidence of this!
I said several things. Since when is it not true that the pilots reported heavy turbulence minutes before the automatic failure messages occured? That alone should be proof enough for that they encountered bad weather before a technical failure occured. What else?
RFields5421 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 2498 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52193 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 3): Others diverted, but AF447 did not divert while they must have seen a massive storm on the screen.
How MUCH did other flights divert? Also what tells you AF447 did not divert? Were not the wreckage found several miles off the intendef flight path? That would indicate to me that the crew did try to divert around the worst cells.
While we have reports of very small alterations in route by some aircraft, I've seen none of significant diversions. Links please.
As I said on the just closed thread, the pilots have a really limited view of the weather ahead, and they have to try to pick their way through the storm cells.
It would be very easy to pick what looks like a clear route, only to have it close up after they have flown between some other cells.
The ability to choose alternate routes as many have described on flights over the US is really not relevant to this dicusssion because of the lack of external references and weather tracking.
On these long overwater flights the crew is really left with only their own judgement for so much of the weather decision making.
413X3 From United States, joined Jul 2008, 1041 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52126 times:
It just makes no sense to me why the pilots did not interact with other pilots in the area? To possibly find the best routing? And ask how bad turbulence they were experiencing? It is strange how quiet they were through all of this.
JBirdAV8r From United States, joined Jun 2001, 3009 posts, RR: 21 Reply 15, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52067 times:
Quoting NA (Reply 12): Since when is it not true that the pilots reported heavy turbulence minutes before the automatic failure messages occured?
They reported moderate turbulence. "Heavy turbulence" is not an aeronautical term; in fact "moderate" could be perceived as an indication the turbulence wasn't out of the experience range of the flight crew. "Heavy" was reported by the media, and you all know how the media works...
Quoting NA (Reply 12): That alone should be proof enough for that they encountered bad weather before a technical failure occured. What else?
Turbulence does not always equate to "bad weather"! Turbulence doesn't have to be convective in origin.
This has been mentioned many times previously; I just don't think you understand precisely what you're talking about.
UALWN From Spain, joined Jun 2009, 255 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52010 times:
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 11): "Chief Air France spokesman Francois Brousse suggested the plane could have been struck by lightning. "
You said "Air France blamed turbulence and lightning." I would like to see a verbatim quote of an Air France spokesperson saying that. What you wrote above comes from where?
In any case, I don't see any blame in that statement. A given aircraft is hit by lightning about once a year, and they keep flying. It has happened twice to me.
RFields5421 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 2498 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 51972 times:
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 14): It just makes no sense to me why the pilots did not interact with other pilots in the area? To possibly find the best routing? And ask how bad turbulence they were experiencing? It is strange how quiet they were through all of this.
Of the approximately 40 aircraft making that transit that night, likely less than four or five were within VHF radio range. We do not know if the crew talked to any of these other aircraft, nor do we know conclusively they did not. Also in heavy weather, the VHF radios could have been distored by electrical interference.
The HF radio has physics issues making it impossible for aircraft close together to communicate, plus with the advent of SECAL, crews no longer monitor HF radio full-time.
The band of weather was 500-600 nm wide, and was expected. It was also expected that the crews of aircraft flying through the area would be able to find ways to fly around any major storm cells.
Contrails From United States, joined Oct 2000, 1608 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 51972 times:
I'm curious about something related to this crash. Are there any other cases of a commercial aircraft that cracked up over the ocean, or crashed onto the ocean, where 99% of the debris hadn't been found a week later?
I'm not developing any theories, but this crash - to me - seems much different than similar crashes in the past.
JBirdAV8r From United States, joined Jun 2001, 3009 posts, RR: 21 Reply 22, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 51892 times:
Quoting Contrails (Reply 21): I'm curious about something related to this crash. Are there any other cases of a commercial aircraft that cracked up over the ocean, or crashed onto the ocean, where 99% of the debris hadn't been found a week later?
The Adam Air 737 in recent memory springs to mind. Also, this has to be about the furthest accident out to sea of which I'm aware.
MrBasiat From United States, joined Jun 2009, 5 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 52024 times:
Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 1): To MR BASIAT ...In reference to your post on part 14 .... your post 11.
Now show us the A 300, AA flight 587 JFK in NOV of 2011 tail and where that broke off.
I am trying to figure out if there is a similarity.
again, there will be distortions due to perspect differences on both photos
also, all the photos available have the straps holding it up
i wanted to add also that in the first photo, the VS being underwater, skin hanging off of it, and the generally bad perspective that it is at, contributes to it looking much more ragged than it really is at the bottom
PlanesNTrains From United States, joined Feb 2005, 2207 posts, RR: 12 Reply 24, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 51755 times:
Quoting 413x3 (Reply 4): I found it deeply troubling how quickly Air France blamed turbulence and lightning when in fact they were just starting the process of replacing sensors on the airplane due to them freezing up far too easily.
"Chief Air France spokesman Francois Brousse suggested the plane could have been struck by lightning. "
There's a BIG difference between "blaming" and "suggesting". Blame implies fault. Suggest implies hypothesy. In my opinion, you are grasping at straws. People wanted answers - including Air France - and with what they knew in the initial hours the weather may have played a significant, if not fatal role in the crash. IMHO, that's all he was saying.
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 14): It just makes no sense to me why the pilots did not interact with other pilots in the area? To possibly find the best routing? And ask how bad turbulence they were experiencing? It is strange how quiet they were through all of this.
My first question would be "Do we know that they didn't?" because I really don't know. My second question would be "How do you know what ANY of them communicated with each other?". I think we're assuming that the pilots felt that they were heading for trouble, when in my mind I seriously doubt that they felt that way or they would have diverted. But i guess we'll know more as the investigation progresses.
RFields5421 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 2498 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 51699 times:
Quoting Contrails (Reply 21): Are there any other cases of a commercial aircraft that cracked up over the ocean, or crashed onto the ocean, where 99% of the debris hadn't been found a week later?
Yes, there have been several where still today we have no clue where the aircraft went down or why. A Qantas Avro Lancastrian aircraft disappeared in 1946 in the Indian Ocean with the loss of 10 people and nothing has yet been found.
However as communication and common routes have improved - the instances are fewer and fewer.
This Air France plane went down in one of the least traveled, most inaccessible areas of the world today.
There are other routes which are more remote and the lack of debris would be even more if an aircraft went down on one of those routes.
[Edited 2009-06-09 10:13:21]
26 FlySSC: After U.S Airways, SWISS has announced they are going to replace the speed sensors on their Airbus fleet. http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/switze...iss-t
27 UALWN: Only in Spanish: http://www.lostiempos.com/diario/act...ta-del-air-france_14163_22321.html It says IB6024, which left GIG for MAD seven minutes after
28 Baron95: You started the "computations" with the weight, etc. But why not complete it and provide the data. At the flight's cruise altitude and estimated weig
29 Jetterrosie: Thanks for that Pihero. Indeed a long overdue sanity check and very insightful - I was getting lost in the other posts. Not to mention slightly frust
30 UALWN: They reported "forte turbulence" in French, which translates as "strong turbulence", maybe "heavy turbulence". There was a post by Pihero earlier in
31 NA: I precisely know what Im talking about I and never did say turbulence equals thunderstorm. I have experienced clear weather turbulence by myself. The
32 Trigged: Thank you VERY much for posting that. Since we are on part 15 of this topic, it is getting a little difficult to find, filter, and compile the facts.
33 RFields5421: Thanks 60km is about what the AF aircraft was off the direct track if my reading of new reports is correct. It would be very interesting to see if th
34 Trigged: From the wonderful images that MrBasiat has put together for us, I see that the rudder is still attached on the AF447 while the rudder is missing from
35 Spacecadet: Well, for one, the nature of most flight routes is that they're not usually out over the middle of the ocean. So the chances of an airplane crashing
36 Flood: You can't go about saying "the first press release... go read them for yourself... here you go..." then quote a news article. I'm not saying Mr. Brou
37 WILCO737: But there are times where you are very far away from any land. Somewhere aroud N48 and W030... Then it takes quite some time to get to an airport...
38 UALWN: The only thing I can tell you is that IB6024 was flying 10 minutes (about 50nm, I guess) behind AF447, along the same track. A friend of mine was on
39 JBirdAV8r: You don't know that they "entered a thunderstorm." You can experience "heavy turbulence" around a thunderstorm without being in it. All you know is t
40 Sdq777: If the aircraft broke apart at, let's say 35000 ft., the debris would most likely be several miles off the flight path.
41 RFields5421: Even then it is very unlikely we will know exactly what the crew saw on the weather radar, unless it is recorded in the FDR, which I do not think it
42 BuyantUkhaa: Assumed by whom? Nobody knows anything about AF447 yaw rate.
43 Ferengi80: IIRC, AA587 didn't crash in to water, it crashed in to a housing estate in Queens, NY. From what I remember of the reasons for this crash, it was dee
44 Slinky09: The IB plane was reported to be 140km behind AF447 (as per earlier thread), with fast convection things can change pretty quickly so again, we can't
45 PlanesNTrains: I believe that the rudder did indeed fall into the bay, although the A300 ended up in a neighborhood. -Dave
46 JBirdAV8r: Don't believe it is either. I'm hoping there will be some info on the CVR that indicates what their flight conditions were, and I'm hoping we can tel
47 TSS: Indeed, particularly since we can now see the rudder's port side which does appear to be somewhat more damaged along it's bottom edge than the starbo
48 Osteogenesis: The cost of the rescue and salvage of the wreckage are going to be huge. I wonder if the governments of France and Basil will pay for it?
49 KHI747: With the classy colours of the AF livery still looking crisp,the sight of this glorious looking Vertical Stabilizer-which was once attached a beautifu
50 Mir: Do we know they were quiet? I'm pretty sure we don't. Probably more like 80-100kts. Plenty big. Could be that, or it could be that the ocean currents
51 SeeTheWorld: Korean 007 Egyptair 990 Pan Am 103 UTA 772 US Air 427 (PIT) from 6,000 feet Air India 182 South African 295 Lauda Air 004 Aeroflot 593
52 Viscount724: Here are three (not counting terrorist bombings like Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie): http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19940323-0 http://
53 Acelanzarote: Agree with what you are saying, China Airlines 611 was mentioned in one of these threads a while back, May 25th 2002. Apart from that guess you have
54 TWAL1011727: The more proper aviation term is to deviate....Deviate is to go around. Divert is to change destination Just as was said in this quote. Also, lets ta
55 Tugger: We know next to nothing about the crew of flight 447, there hours, there time in type, etc.So it will be quite awhile, until the investigators makes
57 Wjcandee: Same was said about the Colgan Air crash and....oops...storm had zero to do with it.
58 Osteogenesis: Yes of course. Sorry for that. Well if it turns out that either Air France maintenance, the pilots or Airbus committed a negligence. What then?
59 Burner71: I can almost promise you, that if that fin came off at cruise speed, these passengers were dead before the plane hit the water. The G forces would me
60 Sniffmom: Several new photos of the VS up now. http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?page=voo447
61 Flygmolinafmly: Some new pictures of the recovered vertical stabilizer.
62 Borism: Just wanted to thank Pihero for doing a good write-up on facts known so far. I'll never be able to read all the posts of all 15 threads so far and cou
63 RFields5421: Check the reports and investigation of the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. This is the most studied high altitude breakup and its impact upon peop
64 Dougbr2006: What I think is very embarrassing for the Brazilian Navy is the representative (don't know his rank) that is relaying information to the media about t
65 Pdoucy: Can someone give some more information about the pitot tubes ? Specifically, what are the airlines replacing ? Is it just the external part (the forwa
66 CasInterest: No one ever said anything about a storm with Colgan. at first everyone suspected icing. of Course it appears the pilot wasn't paying attention to his
67 Burner71: I would disagree. A person in the space shuttle fully strapped in will be able to take an amazing amount of g-forces. Not to mention the shuttle is s
68 KHI747: " target=_blank>http://aviation-safety.net/database/...526-0 Thanks for the information guys but as Viscount724 mentioned,deliberate bombings or shoo
69 Tugger: Not to be too nit-picky but we need to remember to credit and link to where the pics come from. After all we all care when someone uses (or misuses)
70 Slinky09: That's as may be. However at least from the pics they are releasing, they show a really great effort to act, and we are not seeing the smaller debris
71 CasInterest: Technically speaking. UAL 232 could be added ot this list. Sure the controlled crash is what everyone remembers, but the fact that it made it to a ru
72 PPVRA: I hope he's staying quiet out of embarrassment or because the captain outranks him and they are in public. Otherwise, holy s*it. . .[Edited 2009-06-0
74 BOACVC10: Well, I think that just because one officer had "communication difficulties" in explaining to the public shouldn't be cause for alarm, the forces are
75 CasInterest: ????? Aloha still had flight controls and lost what turned out to be engineered breakaway panels//(edit) which may have contributed to the zipper rip
78 SeeTheWorld: It appeared to me your question was about planes falling from a great height with the associated passenger terrifying experience.
79 474218: Could you please explain these "engineered breakaway panels". I realize I have only worked around aircraft for 40 years and don't know everything the
80 Filejw: So the question is did the turbulence cause the technical fault or did the fault occur on its on its own.Quess that's why accident investigations tak
81 Khobar: One has to take into account what "aggressive" means in context. The total pedal travel was, what, 1.5", so it wouldn't take much to move those pedal
82 WingedMigrator: New fact observable from these pictures: the VTP torque box is still attached to several lug and clevis fittings, ripped out from the rear fuselage s
83 KHI747: Well i suppose you can say so.It was 40 minutes into its flight at FL330 when trouble began.
84 JBirdAV8r: We just hope they were at least unconscious quickly. An even better survivability study than 51-L (which was very, very heavily censored) is the rece
85 Mandala499: Replies from topic #14: Yes, auto coordination is lost, but does it say under ALTN LAW the rudder limiter would cease to function? Besides, you don't
86 Borism: thanks Mandala499, you have some good points there!
87 Iwok: From thread #15 Quoting NAV20 (Reply 191): I did say 'as far as I know.' If it has, it's good news - I dislike anything that is 'counter-intuitive' -
88 CasInterest: Bad choice of words taken from wiki. But the jist is that when the engineers designed the 737 they designed it with Engineered Decompression panels t
89 OzGlobal: MUCH more remote, like my SYD - EZE route this Jan (southern summer)! Mid-flight you are something like 8 hours from the nearest airport.
90 CasInterest: How long over Antartica do you fly? Not good if you have an emergency. yikes
91 Aerodog: The last photo is especially interesting. Note the skin panels just below the wide blue stripe. Both the left and right side panels appear to have fa
92 Giopan1975: Excellent point made earlier about pilots being quiet although experiencing heavy turb. I still remember one flight during a period of heavy turbulenc
93 Ellehammer09: I'm not sure why this discussion should be whether people died in this or that way, when it comes to discussing the influence it has on the human bod
94 BuyantUkhaa: Mandala, excellent post again! You may be on to something here... while this no answer, it gives the most consistent idea so far of where the answer m
95 Mandala499: Sentiments shared! I guess this is the "gruesome" we tried to avoid early on. What it has is only consistency with the data so far... but that's abou
96 Trigged: The vertical stabilizer was recovered from the water while the rest of the a/c did strike land. It is assumed myself, possibly incorrectly. For an ai
97 Summa767: Among the pictures posted by the Brasilian navy, there is one of a recovered airplane toilet door: http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/FOTOS/loc_fotos
98 Scarebus03: Thank you all for some wonderful technical insight. But regardless of whether it's fly by wire or conventional the aircraft will to what it is told by
100 757GB: I agree as well. Sometimes it COULD work the other way around: the state of the bodies can give hints as to how the events took place. However as it
101 RFields5421: Sorry you feel this way. I was responding to a statement which I felt was incorrect and tried to place it in the least inflammatory words possible. W
102 LipeGIG: Not the best info but Brazilian Authorities report that 41 bodies has been recovered so far. Brazilian Authorities says that no matter how and how muc
103 Canoecarrier: The Brazilian Navy has updated their notes on the SAR mission. Forgive me if I mistranslated this, I was using Google Translation http://www.fab.mil.b
104 OzGlobal: Depending on the winds, etc, QF fly more or less close to the coast of Antarctica mid-route, (then you come up over Tierra de Fuego, with its snow ca
105 Ellehammer09: I just think that it needs a good point to be brought up.. And I haven't seen any medical statement that would answer any questions yet.
106 764: There is one thing that I cannot quite understand. If I remember correctly, the CVR and FDR should be located in the tail section, shouldn't they? Now
107 Pihero: If I understand well, the fin could have broken-up because of an induced yaw rate due to break-up ? Hmmmmmm... The AUTO FLT...A/P OFF warning message
108 NA: The suicide of the copilot is indeed a hell lot of trouble... Thanks, my error. I would really like to know if its indeed true what Lauda said, that
109 Canoecarrier: They may not have the technical capability to listen to the beacons at this time. Isn't that why the submarine and French tugs are on the way with th
110 RFields5421: This following is all speculation because we have no real details released. Much of the discussion above and in previous threads is on the question w
111 RFields5421: One additional item on CVR/ FDR - they are designed to survive in water up to 20,000 feet / 6,000M deep. Some of the water near the crash site is deep
112 Jbernie: There is no knowledge right now as to when the the fin separated from the rest of the tail section, if at altitude your search area is massive, if at
113 Sniffmom: Take a look at map number 3 (1,08MB) here at the FAB website. It shows distances in the search area and the locations of debris and bodies: http://ww
114 Khobar: Wow - one would think there'd be at least some excitement in seeing these photos. I'm glad at least you guys noticed them! Where is the third lug/cle
115 Soon7x7: When an airliner is assigned a cruise altitude for a trans Atlantic flight what is this based on. Gross weight, and performance, fuel burn efficiency
116 Nomadd22: A 160 db ping can be picked up through a helluva lot more than three miles of water. They don't pick that frequency out of a hat. It's the same one a
117 Mpsrent: I'm a frequent flier, not an aviation expert, so please bear with my questions. I accept the fact I may get flamed, but I am interested in this incide
118 777den: GPS shows ground speed not air speed . Planes fly by air speed since the air they are flying in can be moving. GPS is very good for position ( latitud
119 Iwok: Mandala, that clarifies things quite a bit for me. TY. So I still wind up now with no real idea what happened. The data/voice recorders are going to
120 RFields5421: Aircraft pilots are concerned with Indicated Air Speed, not actual ground speed. The speed of the aircraft through the surrounding air. That is what
121 NAV20: Thanks for all the info., Mandala499. Sorry - misunderstanding - I was only pointing out that the auto-coordination you had referred to earlier in you
122 Soon7x7: If the fin departed first from severe turbulance...hypothetically, the result would be uncontrollable yawing...would this not produce asymmetrical ai
123 Njxc500: In regards to the pinger, I know we are something like 10 days into a 30 day hypothetical life. Is there anyone here that is a battery expert? I wonde
124 Canoecarrier: Like most airplane parts I'd be surprised if it didn't outlive it's designed capability. We aren't dealing with Duracell batteries. I would expect th
125 Ikramerica: You are assuming a 30 day maximum battery life. My guess (only a guess) is that the spec is either for a 30 day MINIMUM life, or a 30 day MTTF life.
126 Mpsrent: RFields and 777Den Thanks for the explanation of groound speed versus air speed. That helps me understand.
127 NAV20: No similarities at all, really, Isitsafenow. The rudder broke into pieces, which were found some distance away from the fin. The NTSB said in their r
128 Dfanucci: Simply stunning how many folks will turn a blind eye in order to prove thier "hypothesis" and or "opinion". For the Airbus pilots here: Are there any
129 Ikramerica: Well, Duracell does make mission critical batteries for all sorts of applications. They just aren't the same ones you buy at the drug store. Though I
130 Baron95: Thank you so much for taking the time to answer with so much detail. It looks like they were at most 25kts and perhaps only 10kts from one or both ed
131 Njxc500: I was actually thinking a 30 day average battery life, either way it makes sense that the battery be rated at 30 days minimum. Still begs the questio
132 Goooooaaal: One question I have is that when the Captain reported that the aircraft was experiencing turbulence at 21:00 (I believe this was his last communicatio
133 Famfflores: New information: An image captured by the Meteosat-9 satellite (Eumetsat) 14 minutes before AF 447 sent the last message, showed that the plane crosse
134 A480: Just a question: I am flying on a Singapore Airlines A380 at the end of this month on their new SIN-CDG route. Does anybody know if A380’s use the s
135 Osiris30: Those temperatures (-83c) would be the temperature at the *top* of the cloud, not the point where the aircraft penetrated. At -83c the cloud tops wer
136 Gulfstream650: 40-45 bodies now recovered. I have to say, they looked pretty bloated judging by the body bags but I have to say, I think it's quite amazing that they
137 RFields5421: My understanding that this was an HF radio transmission with Brasilian Atlantic control - that the plane was near INTOL and would use airway UNI837 t
138 TUNisia: I wonder if it would be possible to design a pitot that could be heated if conditions called for it? Would that eliminate the icing issue?
140 TUNisia: Then why all the talk of icing if it's heated? Not enough heat? Design issue?
141 Sdq777: Also with this violent of a storm and at those altitudes, you can bet a very strong updraft which leads me to say that hail as big as softball and ba
142 2175301: It is my understanding that the requirment is for a minimum of 30 days of operation. To get that minimum of 30 days - and to not have to change batte
143 DCA2011: MORBID ALERT! (Here's where a pathology rotation comes in handy) Bodies become more and more buoyant up to a point the longer they are allowed to dec
144 WingedMigrator: If that were true, you would probably see evidence of damage on the leading edge of the vertical tail plane. The photos published so far do not show
145 NAV20: Going to torpedo my own earlier hypothesis now, because of two bits of new information I came by. The first was a radio report (can't find any confirm
146 Starlionblue: AFAIK "divert" in aviation parlance means "going to another airport to land". It doesn't mean "change course to avoid weather. It would make no sense
147 Sniffmom: Look at my post 113 further up. You'll find the link to FAB's map of the search area where they found bodies and debris, with distances shown.[Edited
148 Tietkej: " target=_blank>http://www.iag-inc.com/premium/> Thanks for this, NAV20. The link is much appreciated. It seems safe to say that AF447 was already in
149 Slinky09: If you take a look at the maps the Brazilian authorities are releasing, there may be some revealing information. Look at the third map for 9 June here
150 NAV20: Thanks, Sniffmom - tried your link when you put it on, but it only brought up the main page, I couldn't work out which button to click on for maps? C
151 Sniffmom: I uploaded the picture in my reply post to you now. Edit: All maps from FAB regarding this operation is posted on their site under the "Infograficas"
152 NAV20: Thanks Sniffmom, Slinky09, problem solved.
153 NAV20: Same here..........except maybe that, if the aeroplane broke up at 35,000 feet, they'd all very likely have been unconscious from oxygen lack within
154 Jrosa: Destroços is wreckage, debris. Grande peça is the Vertical Stabilizer. The last know position is "Ultimo Contato" or last contact point.
155 Quentinc: 90 km... 10 days at sea... that is 9 km a day, a few hundred meters an hour drifting. I am not saying the plane didn't break up. Maybe it did, perhap
156 Mandala499: OK... 206T or 210T gross weight during the accident becomes numb when talking about outclimbing a CB. I really do not think trying to outclimb a CB i
157 Tugger: It could have been electrical failure or they could have been overwhelmed by cold. Like airspeed the temperature of the air is key to how well the he
158 Tietkej: Thanks, guys. Yes, that makes a lot of sense, especially in this scnenario, when considering they were in the middle of the Atlantic and passing thro
159 Hardiwv: In Brazil there is a media report based on Eumetsat data (captured by satellite Meteosat-9) and studied by a Brazilian University showing that AF477 f
160 NAV20: If that engineer is right, Mandala499, the poor blokes couldn't even make a start on the 'aviating'...... About error messages, one point that the ma
161 Mandala499: Now now... 3PRIMs, 3SECs... that's 6... 3ADIRUs... that's 9 2LGCIUs... that's 11 etc etc... They may or may not be separate CPU units... OK, the othe
162 Alhena: As far as i understand, he's assuming that the acars FLAG ON PFD messages indicate that the pfd 'computers' are rebooting. This is totally different
163 Pihero: The IFREMER vessel ("Pourquoi pas ?") carries two ROVs and the manned submarine "Nautile". All three can operate to 6,000 meters. That's the specs. S
164 Quentinc: Came across this http://aviationtroubleshooting.blogs...liable-speed-by-joelle-barthe.html which describes Back Up Speed Scale, which would be handy
165 Starlionblue: Is it really safe to say that? I would say it is still speculation at this point. Quite. Garbage in, garbage out. In fact, computers and software in
166 Tietkej: Well noted. It is speculation. I sounded a bit assertive there. It is reasonable speculation though, I am sure you'd agree. Within my profession (unr
167 Quentinc: Maybe, depends what was broken. If it is simply the pitot and perhaps the static ports that are suspect, then no. The feature seems to use angle of a
168 Pihero: An ACARS specialist, probably just hardware as - see further - his knowledge stops there and basically he has no clue on the meaning of the messages.
169 Alhena: Thank you. That was my impression too.
170 ThrottleHold: Turn co-ordination is provided throught the yaw-damper which has a travel limit of only a couple of degrees. If I was flying with someone who started
171 Mandala499: Maybe, depends what was broken. If it is simply the pitot and perhaps the static ports that are suspect, then no. The feature seems to use angle of a
172 FWI747: Sorry if it has been posted before It seems that the crews of those two Air Caraïbes A330-200 went threw similar problems but with an happier ending
173 Starlionblue: A simple weathervane sticking out into the airflow is probably the simplest way to measure AoA. However in the case of airliners I believe the pitot
174 Zeke: " target=_blank>http://www.iag-inc.com/premium/> That pod cast was the biggest load of XXXX I have heard for some time. The guy being interviewed was
175 Mir: I've never heard of a combination pitot/AoA sensor. A combination pitot/static yes, but not the AoA. I'm not really sure how it would work, since all
176 ThrottleHold: Corect, although it will enter Abnormal Law, which technically is a variation of Alternate Law.
177 Mandala499: Off topic, it is possible... the E170/190 uses this system. 4 pitot tubes... 2 on each side... Thank you for concluding that, I suspected it to be so
178 FCA767: Isn't Thales the company doing the new Pitots but it was another company who did the older ones? Also you provide really detailed good reasoning whic
179 LMML 14/32: I have lost count on how many flights I've done in my career of 30 years. But I can tell you that I (my plane actually) have been hit 4 times by ligh
180 TristarSteve: The Airbus AOA sensors are simple weathervanes.
181 Mandala499: Answer provided in " target=_blank>http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/un....html Paragraph 7 and the image below it should provide a good answer...
182 Astuteman: Which correct me if I'm wrong, some people seem to be trying to paint as an "unsafe" thing...... Rgds
183 GlenP: Just passing on, that the BBC is reporting that the French nuclear submarine is now on station to join in the search: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world
184 David L: You and me both. Clearly there are other scenarios that seem at least as plausible, if not more, but many others that seem far less plausible. Someth
185 FCA767: I think it was in this thread within the last 2 parts...or pprune yesterday...or on the Air France website...sorry I can't remember...I'll have to ha
186 MadameConcorde: I am convinced that the flight recorders will be recovered very soon. Air France, Airbus and the French (and Brazilian) governments will not let this
187 NA: Leaves the question, what does "Tasil" mean on that chart? Thats very interesting. Approx. 150 flights, no lightning strikes, thats my experience ove
188 Logos: My thoughts exactly. Alternate Law confuses me, too, (though maybe less than this gentleman, it seems) but I'm not about to speak authoritatively on
189 Sniffmom: Tasil was the next point where they were supposed to report at approx 02.20utc. Edit: Typo[Edited 2009-06-10 04:23:39]
190 DAL763ER: TASIL is a waypoint on the boundary between Brazilian and Senegalese airspace. http://wikimapia.org/12840687/TASIL-...
191 Mandala499: The next waypoint along their route... Can someone repost the time they were at the previous waypoint and their last estimate for TASIL??? (0233UTC w
193 Yanqui67: Found this info on Dukane's website. They make the underwater beacons used on FDR and CVRs. They are in fact lithium Batteries. Operating Frequency:
194 Starlionblue: Well, here's one. http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_AOA.html Don't blame me. Blame google. To use a HAWK21M phrase: "any pics." Note the
195 Hardiwv: Indeed, I found this information to be extremely relevant for the investigation. Rgs,
196 Soon7x7: I'm curious about the positioning of probes...as demonstrated in the images...could the lower installation of the pitots expose them to more runway, t
197 Baroque: Thank goodness for Pihero and Mandala and the other factual contributions. Indeed, oh my ears and whiskers that it was thought there were not. Howeve
199 Mandala499: The airbus pic on reply 199, behind the door, below it, there's a red circle with a "line" sticking out of it... that's the AoA sensor... Cheers for
200 Jerblaine: I being a pseudo meteorologist say that the weather system that the plane was either inside of or nearing WAS actually a bigger than average storm. Yo
201 Mandala499: INTOL 01°21'39"S 32°49'53"W TASIL 04°00'18"N 29°59'24"W Last ACARS transmission, was sent over 03°34'40"N 30°22'28"W at 0214UTC Let's call this
203 Ellehammer09: A couple of links, that may answer a lot of questions to those not familiar to aviation terms and procedures, etc. http://acronymsandabbreviations.avi
204 Golftango: With the recovery of human remains, it is safe to say that AF447 either broke up mid-flight, or ditched. If water is discovered in the lungs of the vi
205 Jerblaine: I am pretty sure the currents are east to west so that is why the debris circle is off to the west of the projected path to TASIL.
206 Tietkej: Fantastic stuff, Mandala. According to your calculations, what makes TASIL so relevant? Does this have to do with the TAM pilot, who saw flashes the
207 Mandala499: I just needed it to check the time reports between INTOL and TASIL (estimated) to get a rough indication of their groundspeed, and then determine whi
208 RFields5421: I disagree. Water in the lungs, which we do not know to be a fact, only indicates that the person was attempting to breath underwater. It does not in
209 Sniffmom: Yesterday, someone else brought in a celebrity testimonial quoted from the media, implying pilot mistake. I will go after this type of statement once
210 Tietkej: Yes, exactly. Which doesn't make it easier, really. Anyway, two thumbs up for your contributions and calculations here, Mandala499.
212 Alhena: According to this report of yesterday's press conference http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/vo...-af447/2009/06/09/ult7483u152.jhtm (portuguese) The na
213 NA: From avherald.com (dated June 9th): "Airbus Industries said in an internal e-mail leaked to the public, that there is no evidence of any electrical fa
214 Rheinwaldner: No break up in high altitudes spreads the parts so far. The Überlingen midair crash at high altitude showed parts of two aircafts spread over 10 km:
215 Slinky09: Is it possible that some material (e.g. bodies) which have a density closer to water might move with the current and composite material or other move
216 757GB: " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/ame...5.stm Besides trying to passively locate the pings of the black boxes, would active sonar be u
217 Kiwiandrew: I hate to point out the obvious , but the Uberlingen crash was ( for the most part *) over land - there were no ocean currents to spread debris - so
218 CasInterest: I am kind of curious here, what other kind of breakup would you suggest, if an air breakup at high altitude can't put corpses 83 KM apart, then how w
219 Faro: In the case of BOAC 911, a 707 that hit extreme turbulence near Mt Fuji in 1966, the fin snapped off clean due to a violent lateral gust; same with t
220 RFields5421: There tend to be three debris groups in the ocean from ship sinkings/ aircraft crashes. The first group is very light weight material blown by the wi
221 GlenP: 757GB: Sorry, I've never served in submarines; ex-artillery signals NCO, so I've no idea of the capabilities of their sonar systems. I believe we have
222 Kl911: French media now quotes the French secret service that 2 radical moslim extremists where on board the flight. They consider them a threat to France...
223 Catseye: If you were flying in Instrument Meteorological Conditions is it possible to fly with only the Attitude Indicator and power readings but without the A
224 Kl911: Skynews reports the terrorist link as well : http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...rs_Shared_Names_Of_Radical_Muslims
225 Rheinwaldner: Sure, therefore it is a perfect example how far spread the parts would be after a high altitude break up. With this in mind we can exclude that the 9
226 NAV20: Maybe, Rheinwalder. But what is your alternative hypothesis? Some sort of magical situation where the aeroplane flew on for 90-odd kms. on a zigzag c
227 Mandala499: If the aircraft has the optional BUSS (Back Up Speedtape System), then the answer is yes... Covered in reply #174, and the link within it explains it
228 MadameConcorde: I am not sure what to make of this. We have to wait until the authorities get it confirmed i.e. their names are on the passengers list even if they b
229 Faro: The French "Direction centrale du renseignement intérieur", equivalent of the FBI, is the most likely source quoted by the article. Free translation
230 757GB: Thank you for your answer GlenP. I did understand the purpose of the link, and since I've been wondering about active sonar for several days, I refer
231 Pihero: That position is in all probability GPS-generated. We have no reason to suspect it. Mandala, you should have a look into the BEA-reconstructed route,
232 Rheinwaldner: About the 90km debris area? None - there is nothing to be derived from this! Even if it broke in the air the first impact of all parts would have bee
233 SeeTheWorld: My bet is that once they confirm the names and passengers, this will be nothing ... It's like most often when there is a suspicious package .. it tur
234 NAV20: Sorry mate, have to 'push' you. So you favour the 'near-vertical dive into the sea' theory. My own one a few days ago, as it happens. Fine - you're a
235 Jetterrosie: I tend to agree. Although nothing can be ruled out right now it would be extremely unusual for nobody to have very publicly claimed responsibility ye
236 BrouAviation: This wasn't just a celebrity, it was a founder and owner of two highly respected companies in the aviation industry, being Lauda Air and FlyNiki. Sec
237 Rheinwaldner: No problem, I have no theory, I don't exclude any theory. I only exclude that the debris area proves a high-altitude-brake-up.
238 NAV20: OK - you have no theory. See ya.........
239 MadameConcorde: Forged passports with fake names? This is rather common. Or maybe they are not the real two they are thinking of.
240 Astuteman: If you had followed any of the information posted above, as I understood it he may well have caused the "torrent" of error messages by following a fa
241 Quentinc: BackUp Speed Scale, is just an aid, I think. The pilots are expected to memorize and to be able to fly appropriate pitch and thrust settings for vari
242 Ellehammer09: Even with the strongest currents it' would be hard to explain the distance.. 10-12 km a day I reckon is out of question! Less than half that distance
243 Pihero: This foolishness about making a conclusion about in-flight breakage or sea impact from the debris trai(s) has got to stop. Just imagine a leaking oil
244 BrouAviation: How can they be on the passenger list then. Their names on the passports should match with the names on the passenger list, otherwise they wouldn't b
245 NAV20: Another horse just entered - or rather re-entered - the legal race. 'Terr'ists.' I suppose that there's always been a fifth horse entered in the hors
246 Jetterrosie: This is getting a little off topic but it is common for terrorists and the like to have many different aliases and supporting documentation. Security
247 NAV20: BUT - according to the Brazilian Navy - who by common consent have done a fantastic job so far - that's what has happened. If you think that the Braz
248 MadameConcorde: We are not yet certain that these two "names" on board the flight were really the ones they are thinking of. The French Secret Services have not confi
249 RFields5421: Surface currents can run as high as 5 kts per hour in parts of the world. Drifts of 25-50 km per day are not unusual.
250 Acelanzarote: Fully agree, but think its a waste of time looking for common sense at the minute. Some of the comments/questions on here just make me think a lot of
251 UALWN: This link was posted earlier in the thread: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/un...--the-air-caraibes-story.html#more It talks about the two pitot-fre
252 Sniffmom: Precisely for the reasons you mention (founder of two airlines, holder of a commercial pilot's licence), seen from a professional standpoint, implyin
253 Mandala499: Pihero... Excellent stuff... as always... It does look like it's all 10 mins (plus at least 4 secs)... I Concurr Indeed... Which would be 260KIAS? (ca
254 ThrottleHold: Yes, I see a lot of similarities.
255 Osteogenesis: That is very easy. After so many days in the middle of the Atlantic the currents and the wind can do that easily. Not all objects have the same sail
256 WingedMigrator: Careful with the quote button there, Pihero. First, no ocean current is perfectly laminar. This produces a random walk trajectory for each piece of d
257 Osteogenesis: And that you would only accept one where Airbus is at fault. Just accept the fact that this is a complicated case. Cases like this take a long time.
258 Khobar: Finding bodies points away from a "near-vertical dive into the sea". Plus whatever sank to the ocean floor. "Strewn along the route of the plane's de
260 DiscoverCSG: Speak for yourself. This is quite the situation, and now there's the apparent distant possibility that terrorists are involved. So, basically, we don
261 PlanesNTrains: I hope that you're correct, but unfortunately they cannot "will" the boxes to reveal themselves and rise to the surface. I have very little knowledge
262 BrouAviation: To you it may be, others in the aviation industry might have different priorities. (their brand, money, juridical consequences, to name a few) May so
263 Pihero: I' m really sorry. Forum glitch. The quotes are all from NAV20's # 148. I'm going to ask why, probably because of the posts numbering. Once again, my
264 2175301: Hmmmm... Not so sure about this. Here is the way I see it: If the CVR and FDR are recovered in usable condition I suspect there is a 50% chance that
265 Pihero: ....and floated back to the surface at different vertical speeds, hence different deep current effects... and at the surface, just different drift co
266 Mandala499: Had that been over the ocean... I guess someone will start saying PA103 went into low earth orbit because the debris was scattered over a 200mile rad
267 Khobar: That would be a break up in the air, not a break up upon impact with the water.
268 Osteogenesis: No, what he is saying is that the reason why the truth wont come out, is because what it means for certain companies and governments (of course he is
269 Flipdewaf: I think if there were a vertical dive scenario then the plane would be little more than torn bits of ali foil and then there would be many peoples fl
270 Osteogenesis: The present evidence is probably only a small part of what will be considered the evidence at hand in 2 years.
271 Slinky09: When Pan Am 103 broke up wasn't it just that, a break up not a disintegration, where the engines ran for some time and carried part of the plane forw
272 Boeing747_600: Its not necessarily useless. If you have reasonably good knowledge of windspeed and direction, you can estimate the True airspeed vector from grounds
273 Khobar: There are plenty of examples to demonstrate the occurrence of different debris fields without employing any assumptions at all.
274 Khobar: The engines stopped within a few seconds of the initiating event, when the main portion of the aircraft violently pitched downward. In the wake of th
275 AirbusA370: Sorry for being impious, but does anybody know if the found bodys still had clothes? If it had been an inflight-breakup, the clothes would have been r
276 Dragon6172: I get the feeling a lot of us have been at that conclusion since thread 1.
277 BrouAviation: 'Mostly' might be not enough in this case. An aircraft has to be in a perfect state not 'mostly' but 100% all the time. If it isn't, at least the PIC
278 Sailfly: Agreed, I have been through that area and at times currents do get quite high.
279 LongHaul67: Are AF 332's equipped with BUSS (Back-Up Speed Scale)?
280 PlanesNTrains: I'm not sure why this keeps me chuckling. Absolutely. -Dave
281 CasInterest: ???????? No. The clothes would be traveling the same speed as the person. Even through negative acceleration
282 AirbusA370: The air at 100mph+ during the free fall would rip them off...
283 Tugger: Uh no. Just ask any skydiver. The air may remove a piece or two of clothing (a jacket or loose shirt) but nothing else really. Pants, underwear, butt
284 Sniffmom: If you read a few accident reports where flights have broken up at high altitude, you'll see that many victims were indeed found naked.
285 David L: Yet another classic conspiracy tactic. We haven't even seen a preliminary report and already the final report is a pack of lies. In other words, "I'v
286 Tugger: Now that would be due to the 300mph+ wind force experienced effectively "blasting" the clothes off not Normal freefall won't do it which is how I too
287 Sniffmom: Yep, then we agree. Sorry for the confusion, I first misinterpreted your post on this. Edit: Typo.[Edited 2009-06-10 10:58:39][Edited 2009-06-10 10:5
288 RFields5421: And you will also find reports of victims whose clothing was not removed. The only certainty is there is no certainty what happens. Every case, every
289 Sniffmom: That's because they said they wouldn't release this information to the media out of concern for the families of the victims.
290 CasInterest: I have not seen those reports, can you point me to those, where they didn't include a bomb blast? My understanding is that the Naked passengers resul
291 David L: He changes his mind so often, while always being "absolutely certain", that I can't remember. But you are correct. After seeing one photo, he had sol
292 Sniffmom: Tugger is quoted, by the statment was made by me. China Airlines 611 comes to mind immediately. I think I'll just leave it at that, mindful that othe
293 FCA767: Nota 23 19h05 INFORMATION ON SEARCHES OF THE AIR FRANCE FLIGHT 447 Command and the Navy Command of the Air report that so far a total of 41 bodies was
294 David L: Never mind the moderators (with all due respect, of course ). The reason I'd prefer such things not to be discussed is that I don't want to talk that
295 CasInterest: Ok, it's off topic, but the point would still be, that you can't tell anything by the state of the bodies. //edit can't tell anything about where the
296 Mandala499: When Airbus blame Technology, when Boeing blame the crew? Well, a potshot, random or subjective approach to accident discussion doesn't do justice to
297 Golftango: I remember photos of TWA800 where victims were being pulled from the water in just underwear. This was from TIME I believe, haven't seen the images s
298 AirNZ: If you describe yourself as a "legal pro", for what reason would it be referred to either the US Supreme Court, or the UK House of Lords? As a matter
299 Khobar: I can understand not wanting to discuss the condition of a particular person, but I believe a discussion of what happens to the human body in an airc
300 Pihero: On a totally unrelated topic, I'd like Iberiadc852 to do the same job he did on the first pics of the fin - when it was on the water - with those date
301 Slinky09: Thank you for your post. I agree, anything relating to an individual person should not be discussed. After all, let us remember that aside from a des
303 Rolfen: The closest you can get to a convertible airliner.
304 FCA767: Quoting Pihero (Reply 308): And confirm once for all the deflection of the rudder...when the whole assembly is at rest The Rudder will move whenever s
305 Mandala499: I think he was asking to disprove someone's conviction that the rudder was deflected to the right because it was deflected to the right causing tailf
306 David L: Because "someone" had one of their many "this is definitely it" theories based on the rudder being "definitely" jammed" on the basis of a couple of p
307 JBH: Could be. Seems to me it is some kind of floatation device used by the Brazilian navy to lift and/or ensure the fin would remain floating, though....
308 Pihero: Thanks, Ellehammer09... So...the rudder was free to move around its hinges, then. How interesting..as : Not so fast ! The deflection of the rudder bef
309 Ellehammer09: That was my first thought, but why use a floating device on something that is obviously floating on its own? Maybe to be sure that it doesn't sink be
310 Moderators: Continue here please: AF A332 Crash (F-GZCP) Part 16 (by Moderators Jun 10 2009 in Civil Aviation) Many thanks.
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