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Porter To St. John's, Newfoundland (YYT)  
User currently offlineAAMD11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1059 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4857 times:

I have it on reasonably good authority that Porter are planning expansion even further east - all the way out to Newfoundland. Specifically, St. John's - YYT.

Porter currently flies to YHZ several times a day from YOW - a 600-odd mile trip on a Q400. YYT from YOW is even further at nearly 1100 miles. How they plan on extending service out that far is anyone's guess, as the service will no doubt somehow have to originate in YTZ.

YTZ-YOW-YHZ-YYT? YTZ-YQB-YYT? Mind you, YQB-YYT is a good 800+ miles, too.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24824 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4819 times:



Quoting AAMD11 (Thread starter):
How they plan on extending service out that far is anyone's guess, as the service will no doubt somehow have to originate in YTZ.

YOW-YYT or YUL-YYT is well within the Q400's range. SAS once used their Q400s on GVA-ARN which is about the same distance.

GVA-ARN 910 nm
YUL-YYT 876 nm
YOW-YYT 957 nm


User currently offlineTennisace From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4765 times:

I could see YYT being added as one of Porter's summer routes in 2010............this year's summer schedule has already been announced.

YTZ-YQB-YYT would be interesting........one stop service between Toronto and St. John's. All the other options would have direct competition with AC and Westjet, especially in the summer.

Maybe Porter will bring back Canjet's old YYZ-YQM-YYT run??!!


User currently offlineAAMD11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1059 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4758 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
YOW-YYT or YUL-YYT is well within the Q400's range. SAS once used their Q400s on GVA-ARN which is about the same distance.

True.

I guess I am thinking mostly about baggage issues. Halifax is well within Q400 range from YOW, but Porter has had trouble hauling everyone, their dog and kitchen sink out to Halifax. I suppose that's more to do with the amount of stuff people try to bring with them than the capabilities of the plane.

I'm more concerned that if the flight was out of YOW direct to YYT, the number of bags left behind would no doubt increase when you consider the additional fuel required for such a trip.

That wouldn't be a bad thing for some friends of mine at the local baggage delivery company, though. lol

Quoting Tennisace (Reply 2):
I could see YYT being added as one of Porter's summer routes in 2010............this year's summer schedule has already been announced.

Not a summer route. The suggestion is it would form a permanent part of the standard schedule (which would resume in September or so).

[Edited 2009-06-09 13:00:25]

User currently offlineJean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2116 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

This is really hard to swallow. I'm not saying I think the original poster is lying; it just seems like an outlandish proposition to me. The Thunder Bay route seems a bit outlandish as well, but at least it's just a summer route (at least for now). It's also closer.

Halifax, remember, is also a mostly summer route, with reduced frequencies. How they could make YYT (which is much smaller than YHZ and considerably farhter away) work as part of the permanent schedule is beyond me. It also seems to be beyond what Porter has been discussing for possible future routes. (Does anyone havve the map from the inflight magazine where they show lots of potential future destinations?)

But to me, the biggest problem is not the market size, but the distance. Porter's advantage, at least for the high-yielding business customers, is its quick and convenient service. But for business travellers going from YTZ-YYT, time will be added not only by the intermediate stop(s), but by the fact that on a flight as long as YOW(?)-YYT, the slower speed of the Q400 compared to an AC jet becomes much more significant. In all, it's hard to see how this would maintain an appeal as a quick and efficient service.

However, one possibility that would seem to make the trip to YYT a more likely success could be stopping at a NEW intermediate city. That way at least some seats could be filled by pax heading for the new intermediate city, as well as by additional pax going between said mystery city and YYT. (The latter would also be true for YOW, of course, but a new intermediate marked could be more tantalizing for PD).

In that light, YQM as an intermediate stop, as Tennisace suggested, could make a little more sense out of all this. While it doesn't change the length of the flight for YTZ-originating customers, at least the length of the second leg isn't as long, and it also gets Porter into a second additional market which is just about as big as YYT's. I have no idea what demand there would be for local traffic between YQM and YYT, but at least they'd have that route to themselves.

As a fan of Fredericton, I'd love if the stop were in YFC, but the market isn't as big as YQM, and neither, I suppose, would be the demand between it and YYT. That said, another thing that YFC doesn't have is Westjet. Less competition could mean better yield on that segment of the route as a result.

Having said all of this, I still think this route would do better in the summer, no matter how one slices it!

Interesting times for Porter. They're going to have to find ways to use planes 11 through 20 pretty quickly, which could make for some more surprises!

JL



Next flight.... who knows.
User currently offlineAAmd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1059 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4601 times:



Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 4):
This is really hard to swallow. I'm not saying I think the original poster is lying; it just seems like an outlandish proposition to me. The Thunder Bay route seems a bit outlandish as well, but at least it's just a summer route (at least for now). It's also closer.

Halifax, remember, is also a mostly summer route, with reduced frequencies.

It is pretty crazy, I agree. Halifax didn't appear on the initial route map... it was a summer-time experiment that worked, so they kept it. St John's is miles away from anything they set out to serve.

Halifax, coincidentally, used to be summer-only. It's now four times daily during the spring & fall schedules. For the summer, Halifax will be served five times daily from YTZ (and YOW).

Oh, and Thunder Bay just might be year-round... you can book tickets for YQT in mid-November at present... still three times daily. That's aircraft number 13, I guess.  Wink

(On the subject of aircraft 11 through 20... 11 and 12 are already with Porter as LQM and LQN).  Smile


User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

Oh wow. Big grin

If indeed this is true, it would be a perfect route for me, for when I visit pals in Nfld 

[Edited 2009-06-09 15:10:40]


Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1061 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4529 times:
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I'd be interested to see if Porter could try to get in on more Military Travel. They already fly to:

YOW (National Defense HQ)
YQB (Naval Reserve HQ, Canadian Forces Fleet School Quebec)
YHZ ( CFB Greenwood, CFB Halifax, CFB Shearwater, Canadian Forces Fleet School Halifax, Joint Task Force Central)
YUL (Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School St Jean)
YTZ (Area Support Unit Toronto, Canadian Forces Staff College, Joint Task Force Central)
YQT (NORAD)

If they connected YOW/YHZ with YFC (CFB Gagetown, a massive army/air training base), Add in YTT with their Navy Aux base, you could be seeing a lot of CF travel.

I know for a fact that many CF members will fly with Porter because it is the only way we get business class. If they extended the YQT route to YWG you might be able to get in on traffic to CFB Shiloh, especially if there was a flight YWG YQT YOW/UL.



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4507 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
YOW-YYT or YUL-YYT is well within the Q400's range. SAS once used their Q400s on GVA-ARN which is about the same distance.

GVA-ARN 910 nm
YUL-YYT 876 nm
YOW-YYT 957 nm


I'd bet YOW-YYT, despite the distance, if this was going to happen. AC has only a single E-jet on this route, WS has nothing. With the Q400's speed, the difference block-to-block timewise wouldn't be much. Also, a lot of the traffic YOW-YYT is government, and therefore at more than vermin class fare basis. Baggage would be an issue, for sure.

But I'd more believe YYZ-PHL, YYZ-BOS, and YYZ-DCA -- once the pre-clearance thing is addressed.

A big problem looming I think is how to marshal all the a/c on the YTZ ramp when PD have all their (current) 18 a/c. There isn't a lot of space there.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineYVRtoYYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4392 times:

NORAD is based out of YYB, not YQT

User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4237 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4346 times:
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Quoting AAMD11 (Reply 3):
I guess I am thinking mostly about baggage issues. Halifax is well within Q400 range from YOW, but Porter has had trouble hauling everyone, their dog and kitchen sink out to Halifax. I suppose that's more to do with the amount of stuff people try to bring with them than the capabilities of the plane.

Horizon Airlines -- which also flies the Q400 -- does SEA-BIL-SEA twice a day at 575 nm each way -- but those planes also carry mail and freight in addition to luggage.

It's hard to believe that Horizon can fly the Q400 over the Rockies with passengers and freight but Porter can't fly the Q400 at sea level with everyone's luggage.  splat 


User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4309 times:

It's not a matter of Porter not being able to fly the Q400 fully loaded due to restrictions of the aircraft, it's the unique operating conditions of YTZ. The longest runway at YTZ is only 3,988 feet...hardly long enough to operate the plane at MTOW. As such, the range of the aircraft is quite limited if they take off fully loaded with passengers and their baggage. That is the reason the flights to YHZ go through YOW, but keep in mind they have previously operated non-stop YHZ-YTZ service seasonally.

As such, since adequate runways exist everywhere else they fly, there is no reason PD couldn't use their Q400's on YOW-YYT or any other number of routes that stretch the birds' legs a bit more. It seems likely to me that this would be their plan if they want to eventually increase coverage of the maritime provinces and maybe extend westward toward YWG and beyond (presumably using YQT as a stopping point).


User currently offlineMpsrent From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4290 times:

Seattle to Kelowna on Horizon over the rockies seemed to take forever for such a short flight.

User currently offlineAAmd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1059 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

It's the baggage allowance they offer, and the baggage they can physically carry that disagree. The Ottawa-Halifax market seems to consist entirely of people who bring as much luggage as they can, even for a single week.

I know that Porter passengers on this route are no exception. They're allowed two bags at a combined weight of 50lbs - which many passengers wrongly believe to be two bags at 50lbs each (putting them at twice their limit).

Q400 cargo hold capacities (FWD + AFT) = 3140lbs approximately. Porter offers passengers a total of 3500lbs (50lbs x 70 passengers). If everyone brings what they're allowed, they're overweight by near enough 400lbs.

At the end of summer (students going to school) and during Christmas (everyone visiting friends/family/pets) people don't just bring their allowance. They bring twice their allowance and then some.

The hope is that for every passenger that's over their limit, there's another who has almost no baggage at all. Alas, for a good part of the year, that's not the case.

That's bad enough on YOW-YHZ where the long runways allow you to operate at max weights. When you attempt YHZ direct out of the island, with all that baggage, and that tiny runway, and you're just adding problems onto problems. Ask anyone who flew into/out of Halifax with Porter this past Christmas.

[Edited 2009-06-09 19:25:50]

User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

Newfoundlander's are brutal when it comes to baggage. We have, on a regular basis, pax travelling short haul with two bags that are as full as they can pack them. It is not uncommom to see pax flying to YHZ, YOW, YYZ with supersized suitcases that weigh over 60lbs.
If PD has problems with baggage constraints, then I doubt we would see YTZ-YYT service, instead like has been mentioned, probably YOW-YYT or YHZ-YYT.
I think YQM-YYT could possibly work as well, maybe not daily, but 4-5X a week. I believe that C6 did well on that route.



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3987 times:

I've heard that BOS is a good possibility for new Porter service soon too.

User currently offlineBravo1six From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3922 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 10):
It's hard to believe that Horizon can fly the Q400 over the Rockies with passengers and freight but Porter can't fly the Q400 at sea level with everyone's luggage.

The issue isn't that they can't (or that the aircraft can't do it) but rather that the short runway length at Toronto Island results in payload restricted departures. Short runway + full pax/baggage = less fuel = technical stop enroute.


User currently offlineAAmd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1059 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3414 times:



Quoting PVD757 (Reply 15):
I've heard that BOS is a good possibility for new Porter service soon too.

That'll almost certainly be the next American destination.

Rumours of YSB (Sudbury, Ontario) being served later this year, too.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24824 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3379 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 10):
It's hard to believe that Horizon can fly the Q400 over the Rockies with passengers and freight but Porter can't fly the Q400 at sea level with everyone's luggage.

How many of those Horizon airports have only a 4,000 ft. runway?


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3370 times:
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Quoting Mpsrent (Reply 12):
Seattle to Kelowna on Horizon over the rockies seemed to take forever for such a short flight.

Yeah, well -- if they routed it over the Rockies it would take forever. In fact, they might as well drop in on Calgary first if they do it that way.

I know Western Canada's geography isn't well known east of Winnipeg, but the Rockies divide BC from Alberta (at least in the south) and there are several other mountain ranges (besides the Rockies) between Vancouver (or Seattle) and Calgary.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4237 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3267 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 10):
It's hard to believe that Horizon can fly the Q400 over the Rockies with passengers and freight but Porter can't fly the Q400 at sea level with everyone's luggage.

How many of those Horizon airports have only a 4,000 ft. runway?

None as far as I know. And when I come through Toronto (usually from YYC or YYG), I always change planes at Pearson.

It sounds like I'm missing something special at the lakeside.  razz 


User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

I would love to see YTZ-DCA.... Fares to WAS from YYZ are extremely high . I have flown BWI-BUF a few times already this year on Southwest and US ($49 each way) and used my nexus card to cruise through the borders. Try $500 at least to get to YYZ from any of the three Washington area airports....Porter...please come to DC!!!!!

User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3103 times:



Quoting Yegbey01 (Reply 21):
I would love to see YTZ-DCA.... Fares to WAS from YYZ are extremely high . I have flown BWI-BUF a few times already this year on Southwest and US ($49 each way) and used my nexus card to cruise through the borders. Try $500 at least to get to YYZ from any of the three Washington area airports....Porter...please come to DC!!!!!

I think there is a strong business case for YTZ-DCA. But as stated earlier, this can't go forward until there is US Customs Preclearance at YTZ -- which one assumes Porter will have to pay for. I am quite sure that Porter have had some type of discussion with Homeland Security about this already and are crunching the numbers to see what will work, in their view.

This would be a special service, downtown to downtown, and I wouldn't expect Porter to cut the business traveller much of a fare break on this route.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3040 times:



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 8):
A big problem looming I think is how to marshal all the a/c on the YTZ ramp when PD have all their (current) 18 a/c. There isn't a lot of space there.

Given the limited space at YTZ, and assuming PD intends to expand beyond the 18 aircraft on order, would YOW be an ideal second hub?

PA515


User currently offlineAAMD11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1059 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2890 times:



Quoting PA515 (Reply 23):
Given the limited space at YTZ, and assuming PD intends to expand beyond the 18 aircraft on order, would YOW be an ideal second hub?

Logically, it's the most likely place for a new base because it's already the focus of the Halifax (and maybe St John's?) flights. All regular Halifax flights operate from YOW. And, if you look at flights from the 5th October onwards, you'll notice there's an 0630 departure to YHZ now - that flight can't possibly originate in YTZ. There's also a late-ish arrival from Halifax (gets in around 2130 or so, so that can't be continuing to YTZ, either... well, not without running a serious risk of curfew busting). I'd say that almost makes Ottawa a focus city, considering practically every other flight starts or ends in Toronto.  Wink


User currently offlineDc10srule From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Just a few random thoughts about the Q400, Porter expansion and the Toronto City Centre Aiport:

I flew Horizon's Q400 from LAX to BOI @ 586nm each way and recall the block time difference being 16 minutes longer than the CRJ.

Any truth to rumors that Porter may join up with Westjet to become their regional division?
This gives the Thunder Bay route some legitimacy as customers may connect westbound on Westjet from there. This may also help explain what Porter is going to do with the fleet additions.

The Toronto City Centre Airport (TCCA) only has so many slots devoted to commercial operations. A complicated agreement designed to protect residents near the waterfront airport limits commercial flights based on a NOISE Exposure Forecast (NEF). The number is unconfirmed at about 114 slots (hard to get a straight answer). Therefore, since Porter is already using 90 slots, this leaves 24 slots for the 7 or 8 new Q400's on the way which is obviously inefficient.
Therefore, it makes sense to develop Ottawa as a secondary base to stage eastward expansion and make use of the entire fleet.

Politics always plays a part at the TCCA as the Toronto Mayor and some members of Parliament can't stand the airport. One particular airport hating member of Parliament - Olivia Chow, is trying to get the Airport Operator - The Toronto Port Authority - disbanded and the airport operation turned over to the City. If this happens, I fear that Porter will have the rug pulled from under them by the moronic mayor Miller who will do anything to stop commercial operations at the TCCA.

I wish Porter luck and am very happy to see them succeeding.

Take Care.



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