Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
TWA's STL Hub  
User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6410 times:

Hello fellow a.netters....

At the request of fellow a.netter USPIT10L, I jabve completed a chart showing TWA's daily departures from their Saint Louis hub for the years 1977-2001.

The chart can be found at:

www.departedflights.com/TWSTLhub.html

Hopefully this link will encourage discussion about TWA's STL hub, its decline, its current AA service, etc....

One thing that interested me...TWA just couldn't seem to decide what they wanted to do with their Chicago service in the early 80s!

Please...let the discussions begin!

And mods...this, as I always say, is not an advertisement...it is providing a link to a site that will hopefully encourage discussion on the a.net board....

Thanks!

Greg
www.departedflights.com

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26010 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6282 times:

As always thanks for your efforts in documenting aviation history.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineUsafret From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6229 times:

Thanks Greg. I flew TWA dozens of times in the mid l980s on Air Force "TDYs". The glory days of full gates on "C" and "D", L-10lls and other heavies down at 42 to 44 on the "C" are gone. "D" is all but empty save for Great Lakes Airlines (B-1900s) and I think one Frontier gate. "C" is half AA RJs and half AA mainlines, but pretty much ends at Gate 32. My wife's brother was a long time TWA A&P is now at AA's MCI facility hanging on. I always liked TWA even though I rarely got upgraded as a military peon back then (AF Captain). My last TWA flight was l993, L-1011, SFO-STL-SFO, my wife and I got first class upgrade on that flight.

Although I'm Exec Plat on AA, I sure miss the TWA fleet, even the 727s and 707s of days gone by. Service was always good- Ozark better, but that's another thread. STL is a shell of it's former self on the C and D concourse, mostly MD-80s and a few 757s. AA long hauls mostly require changes in DFW and ORD. We have about one, maybe two direct flights daily on mainlines to major cities such as ORD, DFW, LAX, SFO, SEA, BOS, MIA, but fairly good service to LGA, DCA and a few other like cities. Smaller cities are on RJ's- ugh. I'd say we are a mini AA hub but could do more as we have a new long, but unused runway, better weather than ORD and plenty of gate space.

The airport commission is doing some upgrades at Lambert, they have re-done 5 out of the 6 luggage carousels, they are redoing the Saarinen ceilings in the main building but the concourses still leak when it rains! The local community just renovated the USO--it is a show place for our troops to visit and enjoy some quiet time. I'm retired military and it is the best USO in the country, IMHO.

The airport does appear cleaner this year than last and we have a few restaurants on "C" other than hot dogs and pretzels, such as Chili's and a California Pizza Kitchen. "A" Concourse is still fairly blah (UA, DL, US) and has weak food choices. East Terminal (WN) is pretty nice but showing some wear but weak food choices, but most folks just coming and going as this is a mini WN hub.

I think parking is $$ compared to BNA, CLT, etc as I see their rates as I travel about. Plus, the traffic flow all around STL is about as bad as LGAs, except for not having all the taxis. I feel bad for first time drivers trying to find their way around. I see confused looks all the time.

My dream would be to move the whole thing over to the Boeing complex across the main runways, equal airports like new Indianapolis and BNA, get a central rental car lot and better parking and eliminate the millions of shuttle vans!


User currently offlineDFW13L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6139 times:

I'm glad you posted this. For me, being from Shreveport, the comparison has always between SHV and JAN for BNA, MEM, STL, and CVG hub service. In the case of TWA, they held onto SHV for the duration, but ended the JAN service in 1997. The SHV service started in April 1995, and I flew on TWA my first time in late May of 1995 IND-STL-SHV (72S and DC9) to make it to a graduation.

It shifted to TWExpress flying in 2000. That always upset me because if the DC9 service had remained one more year, SHV could have had AA mainline service again for a little while.

I was also surprised to see that there were 2 LGW flights in 1998. I wasn't aware of that.

Thanks for your work in putting this together!
Matt


User currently offlineB595 From UK - Scotland, joined Mar 2009, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6027 times:

6-8 daily departures to CID from '97 to '01. And in some of the years, all 8 departures were TWA mainline. I caught the tail-end of those times, and it was like CID was a TWA fortress. I think in the early mornings you could see 3 TWA DC9s parked at the terminal together.

User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6155 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5736 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Nice chart, but I found an error. You have EVV listed as Evansville, Illinois. EVV is Evansville, Indiana. There is an Evansville, IL, but it is a really small town and doesn't have an airport. I see that EVV was all "commuter" even back in the 80s. Who was flying that route for TW and what were they flying?


My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1727 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5689 times:

I really enjoy your detailed hub reviews, they're very informative! It's interesting to see the kind of service that STL once had compared today, regardless of whether the service is on AA or anyone else. It's hard to even fathom seeing widebodies to LGW, FRA, and CDG lined up in the current environment. I also didn't realize that TW did so much moving around of their Chicago service...sometimes all ORD, sometimes all MDW...sometimes all mainline, sometimes almost half express...sometimes a few flights a day, sometimes nearly 20.

BTW, in addition to the typo Falstaff mentioned, "Toronto" is misspelled.


User currently offlineJohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

Good stuff, thanks. I went to school in Missouri (MU) during the last years of Ozark and have fond memories of St. Louis as a great place to watch aircraft, what with all the TWA activity and Ozark thrown into the mix. Not only did TWA have a large number of operations out of STL, but they also had a large proportion of widebodies, primarily L-1011s and 767s with a few 747s thrown into the mix. I also remember a visit to my sister's house in suburban St. Louis in the early 1980s and seeing a lot of TWA 707s on final for STL. Visiting STL today for me is a sad experience.

User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5564 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
You have EVV listed as Evansville, Illinois. EVV is Evansville, Indiana.



Quoting Steex (Reply 6):
BTW, in addition to the typo Falstaff mentioned, "Toronto" is misspelled.

Thanks, guys! Those items have been corrected!

Greg


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5540 times:

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
Nice chart, but I found an error.

Also, Lincoln, NE is LNK, not LKN, and Fayetteville, AR is FYV, not FAY (Fayetteville, NC). Otherwise, great job as usual, Greg! Also, in your other hub listings, you have Puerto Vallarta, Mexico as PVT, it's PVR.

[Edited 2009-06-10 13:38:36]


It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3094 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5451 times:

I only got to fly TW once, in the mid-90's MSY-ORD thru STL both ways. That was in the "More Room Throughout Coach" days. It was so awesome to see all that red & white parked at the gates (even though WN was already sizeable at STL then). Getting to see the L1011's in something besides DL colors, along with 747 Classics, was truly a treat!

I don't think I'd even want to go to STL now - would be too depressing.



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5424 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 9):
Also, Lincoln, NE is LNK, not LKN, and Fayetteville, AR is FYV, not FAY (Fayetteville, NC). Otherwise, great job as usual, Greg!

Oh....I ASSURE Y'all....the NUMBERS are correct despite by bad spellings and incorrect IATA codes! LOL! I promise!

And those errors HAVE been corrected, thanks Dave!

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 10):
I only got to fly TW once, in the mid-90's MSY-ORD thru STL both ways. That was in the "More Room Throughout Coach" days.

I only got to fly them a few times....all as a non-rev....

727-200 CLE-STL
DC-9 STL-MLI
DC-9 MLI-STL
MD-80 STL-CLE

DC-9-30 DFW-STL
DC-9-30 STL-MLI
Trans World Express J41 MLI-STL
DC-9-30 MLI-DFW

and finally...a one-way from STL to DFW on the fabulous 717.


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5407 times:



Quoting N702ML (Reply 11):
I only got to fly them a few times

I was blessed to fly them very often back in the day from about 82 through 90. TWA was very much a class act. A lot of my flying was STL to PHX, CMH, MKE, TPA and the Ambassador service was outstanding. I was on every aircraft type they flew including the 717.

I miss them a lot.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5406 times:

I flew them once in September, 2000....MSY-STL-BOS on two MD-80's.

I remember walking onto the plane and immediately being impressed with the small flight route map and flight information posted on one of the bulkhead walls. It was flight 436 and I remember seeing the strange routing on the map: MSY-STL-RSW. Lots of through passengers on that one, don't ya think?  Wink

By then in flight service was not remarkable, but I remember the flight crews were all very pleasant and we were served a snack in a white plastic bag with the TWA name printed on them. Wish I would have saved that one.


User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5332 times:



Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 10):

I don't think I'd even want to go to STL now - would be too depressing.

I certainly hope aviation isn't depressing for you. And if it is, there are probably some bigger issues we need to talk about.  Wink

The unfortunate part to the whole St. Louis situation is that Ozark Airlines never got a chance to really become a major player on the aviation scene. Ozark was widely regarded to be the airline of choice in St. Louis and when it was absorbed into TW, I'm told by my elders that it was regarded as a sad day. At that point, Ozark was "ours" as TW was still New York based. People that I speak to liken it to Midwest of today, yet it was a more profitable operation.

Too bad.


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3138 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

They flew nonstop to OGG?!!


E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineJohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5270 times:

They got a lot of business from my company back in the mid-90s when they had a policy whereby you could upgrade to first class (if space was available) for the price of full coach. Back in those days if you weren't staying over a Saturday night you were paying $1,000 for many coach airline tickets and as a result we used TWA quite a bit - why fly coach when you could fly first? I have fond memories of shuttling between BDL and CID via STL during that period. Probably the most interesting time was when we got a several-hour delay at the gate at CID due to thunderstorms in STL. The first class cabin drank the galley dry of booze, except for champagne, before we even pushed back. Fortunately they had plenty of champagne (well, sparkling wine really) on hand. I flew first with them quite a bit and they had the best domestic service of any carrier I've flown, they just waited on you hand and foot.

User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5236 times:

Did Ozark ever fly dc9s over to COU or was it all J31s?

Thanks.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2349 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5223 times:



Quoting B595 (Reply 4):
6-8 daily departures to CID from '97 to '01. And in some of the years, all 8 departures were TWA mainline. I caught the tail-end of those times, and it was like CID was a TWA fortress. I think in the early mornings you could see 3 TWA DC9s parked at the terminal together.

yep TWA was big here in CID, and it always seemed like those mainline flights were pretty full too. I remember when they even advertised all mainline 8 x per day back in 2000 or so. Its probably the reason why AA is big here today, although most is routed to ORD and DFW, but we still get 2 STL flights. I flew thru STL on AA to ORF last summer and on other previousl occasions after AA downsized STL. C still had a bustline feel to it which was nice, of course the airfield wasn't a busy and D was viturally a ghost town.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3745 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5171 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 15):
They flew nonstop to OGG?!!

OGG and HNL from STL.



PHX based
User currently offlineB767300ER From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5152 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I remember the STL-JFK scheduled in the AM included either the TLVor CAI 767-300
being used to STL to operate the STL-OGG flights and the return STL-JFK service bringing
back the 767-300 to operate to TLV or CAI. Even though the return to JFK of the plane sat
in STL for a many hours there was many times the plane was not properly prepared for
the CAI/TLV service and JFK commisary/maintance would be upset as they had less than
two hours from its arrival for the overseas departure. Therefore since there was less than two hours
between the arrival from TLV/CAI to the departure to STL the plane was sent out in less than
stellar condition for the STL-OGG flight. Up and till the end this problem was a thorn in the
side of both JFK and STL.


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5041 times:

How big was the JFK hub at it's peak? I remember at one point many domestic stations had nonstops to JFK as well as STL.

User currently offlineJetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

I can't believe Terre Haute (HUF) had TWA mainline in the late 70's, were the flights operated on Convairs or Connies?

User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5010 times:



Quoting Jetskipper (Reply 22):
I can't believe Terre Haute (HUF) had TWA mainline in the late 70's, were the flights operated on Convairs or Connies?

TWA became all-jet in 1967. The Convairs and Connies were long gone by the late '70s.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineB595 From UK - Scotland, joined Mar 2009, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4943 times:



Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 18):
yep TWA was big here in CID, and it always seemed like those mainline flights were pretty full too. I remember when they even advertised all mainline 8 x per day back in 2000 or so. Its probably the reason why AA is big here today, although most is routed to ORD and DFW, but we still get 2 STL flights. I flew thru STL on AA to ORF last summer and on other previousl occasions after AA downsized STL. C still had a bustline feel to it which was nice, of course the airfield wasn't a busy and D was viturally a ghost town.

I was happy to see that the a.net database has a few shots of TWA at CID


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum



And some nice ones of the TWA terminal at STL


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bevin Shively



25 BMI727 : Yessir. TW1 and TW2. I think one left at about 11:40 and the other a bit later. Whenever my family would go eat at 94th Aero Squadron for lunch I wou
26 N702ML : Jetskipper, you are correct...you CANT believe it because that was a mistake...those numbers should have been listed as Tampa departures, not Terre H
27 PC12Fan : Posts like this give me quite the case of melancholy. I've worked at STL since the late 90's and I sure miss those days. Makes me fantasize about have
28 Evanbu : Just out of curiousity, what was the range of equipment from MCI-STL?
29 FlyBoy84 : OZ served LUNCH on STL-ORD...roast beef or turkey sandwich, a bag of chips, a WHOLE can of soda, and an apple! Great for pax, not so great for the FA
30 BMI727 : I think that planes as large as the L-1011 were scheduled, but I would guess that every type flew that route at one time or another for MX reposition
31 727Tiger : Yes. In 1984, I caught an Ozark DC-9 out of COU to STL. It's route was SGF-COU-STL. I loved flying Ozark before the TWA merger.
32 OzarkD9S : I guess I'll chime in. I was an Ozark brat, later a TWA brat due to my Mom working for OZ/TW reservations. While St Louisans may have considered OZ th
33 USPIT10L : I've often wondered what would've happened had USAir bought OZ instead of PSA and Piedmont. With OZ and PS, USAir would've had a true transcontinenta
34 OzarkD9S : That would have been sweet indeed.
35 Lexy : Yeah! And if you are up that way on a Thursday, head over to Mid-America AIrport and watch the Arrow DC-10 land with a load of fresh flowers on it.
36 WA707atMSP : An Air Transport World article in the late 1990s said JAN became unprofitable for TWA once WN began flying there. Many of TWA's JAN-STL passengers we
37 Exaauadl : Yes, 2-3 times per day. Usualyl a STL-COU-JLN/SGF routing Most likely a DC-9-15. I flew thru STL a lot in the 1970s thru the 1990s. On OZ and just ab
38 OzarkD9S : I remember seeing those flights at the STL ticket counter. "Check-in for London, Paris, Madrid, Milan" etc...I think at the time STL had LGW and mayb
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
American's STL Hub posted Mon May 25 2009 19:54:35 by CIDFlyer
TWA PIT Hub 1980s posted Tue Apr 21 2009 17:05:23 by Nomadic
TWA's ATL Hub posted Tue Jul 8 2008 10:29:13 by EXAAUADL
TWA Atlanta Hub...An Ambassador Club? posted Wed Aug 1 2007 13:42:55 by Nomadic
TWA STL Int'l Routes posted Sat Sep 2 2006 20:33:29 by Sampa737
AA STL Hub posted Sat Oct 1 2005 19:20:07 by MD90fan
AA STL Hub Managers Prospective- Good Article posted Tue Jul 27 2004 02:22:48 by Atcboy73
Dropped Routes At AA STL HUB posted Sat Sep 27 2003 00:23:33 by ARCJET
Renovations For AA's STL Hub? posted Tue May 13 2003 03:18:17 by TLHFLA
Is The End Of AA's STL Hub Close? posted Wed Apr 2 2003 18:44:50 by Cody