Moderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 86730 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
This is Part 16 regarding the crash of AF flight 447, continuing from the previous thread:
Part 15 in particular saw a lot of wild speculation over one or two emerging details. This will not be tolerated. Please try and keep the thread as factual as possible.
As ever, the forum rules apply; remember to focus on the topic in-hand and not other users.
Regards,
The Forum Moderators.
Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
LTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 362 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 86934 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 320):
Is that a mangled/entangled escape slide/slideraft????
If it were from the plane, they would have recovered it and we'd have pictures of it as part of the wreckage. Recovery of a slide/raft would be noteworthy.
My guess, as I said before, is that it belongs to the Brazil Navy
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 20630 posts, RR: 62 Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85902 times:
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 1): My guess, as I said before, is that it belongs to the Brazil Navy
To help maintain buoyancy during recovery. Good call.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 5880 posts, RR: 74 Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85683 times:
Thanks for that... at least I can stop thinking about it. I was thinking that if it were a mangled slideraft, it could point towards some form of airframe separation... (since we've been debating about where and when the tailfiin snapped...
Quoting Pihero (Reply 316): Not so fast ! The deflection of the rudder before it was lifted from the ocean was assumed by some to be jammed at the position where it caused the airplane break-up in flight.
I'm just glad theat theory has been disproved.
Hmmmm ! someone said anything about eggs on some faces ?
And if it were jammed, they would have taken care for the displacement to be preserved.
Eggs? Time to do grocery shopping, but I didn't have eggs in mind!
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 315): when an aircraft goes down and there is no evidence as to why the court can not infer that the pilot or owner are at fault.
That comment is so asking for someone (eggs anyone?) to start screaming "Conspiracy!" and/or "Cover Up!"
*yawn*
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
RFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 4870 posts, RR: 21 Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85646 times:
Quote: Ellehammer09 From Denmark, joined Jun 2009, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 319, posted Wed Jun 10 2009 16:57:48 your local time (23 secs ago) and read 0 times:
Just to keep things straight, I am in no way supporting theories of a terrorist attack - in contrary I'm sure we would have known by now, unless the basic strategy of terror has changed over night. Again the media is diverting facts to sell more papers - and the aspect of terror is known to have a great effect on the numbers.
But when it comes to excluding terror from this incident, isn't it pretty obvious that the messages on the ACARS is inconsistant with an explosion on board? And how would the interference by any terror act have influenced on the planes monitoring/controlling systems? I find it very unlikely that terror has anything to do with it..
I concur with your view on terrorism, however good old fashioned greed or revenge as a reason for a bomb I don't think can be excluded yet. Nor an accident if someone was transporting a explosive device.
I also don't think the ACARS messages exclude the possibility of an explosive device rupturing the hull which started a breakup of the aircraft.
A sudden massive explosion, yes the messages exclude that possibility. But a smaller one which lets the aerodynamic forces tear apart the plane must still be a possibility. A very small possibility in my opinion.
StasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3061 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85416 times:
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 5): I concur with your view on terrorism, however good old fashioned greed or revenge as a reason for a bomb I don't think can be excluded yet. Nor an accident if someone was transporting a explosive device.
From the MSNBC.com news website:
"The French magazine L'Express reported Wednesday that French intelligence services had matched the names of two passengers on board Flight 447 with those of suspects linked to Islamic terrorism. But it noted that the passengers' birthdates were not available, and that it might only be a case of people with similar names. The names themselves weren't reported.
A senior judicial official in France, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject, said he had received no information to back up the claim. French police and British intelligence officials would not comment on the report."
Source:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31207960/
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
Pygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 890 posts, RR: 41 Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85552 times:
This deflection appears to be the same as when it was in the water. Not saying it is jammed.
Ellehammer09 From Denmark, joined Jun 2009, 40 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85182 times:
Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 8): This deflection appears to be the same as when it was in the water. Not saying it is jammed.
Mandala already pointed out the fact, but here its even more obvious
that they are taking no effort in maintaining the rudders deflection - and the visible strap around it, seems to be deflecting the rudder to its max.. Resting on the aft deck, its clearly that there is no deflection.
Sniffmom From Norway, joined Feb 2009, 64 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85124 times:
Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 7): "The French magazine L'Express reported Wednesday that French intelligence services had matched the names of two passengers on board Flight 447 with those of suspects linked to Islamic terrorism. But it noted that the passengers' birthdates were not available, and that it might only be a case of people with similar names. The names themselves weren't reported.
Richierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3862 posts, RR: 7 Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85118 times:
That's a great picture, Pygmalion, of a site nobody wanted to see.
Considering this plane crashed a little more than a week ago, it must still rip the heart out of any AF people on here to see this snap. Even if they didn't know any of the passengers or crew personally. I know we have all had time to absorb the crash but it still seems impossibly hard to believe...
Let's hope the search for the boxes is a successful one. Its certainly going to be a monumental effort.
StasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3061 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85077 times:
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 1): If it were from the plane, they would have recovered it and we'd have pictures of it as part of the wreckage. Recovery of a slide/raft would be noteworthy.
Associated Press is reporting "that a French frigate, the Ventose, had already gathered 130 pieces of debris, big and small. The debris was being cleaned of salt and was to be taken to an undisclosed location for further analysis". Furthermore, "a total of 41 bodies have been recovered so far from the scene of the crash... The remains are being flown daily to Recife, where investigators hope to identify them and uncover clues into the crash based on the victims' injuries."
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 20630 posts, RR: 62 Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 85044 times:
Quoting Ellehammer09 (Reply 9): Mandala already pointed out the fact, but here its even more obvious
that they are taking no effort in maintaining the rudders deflection - and the visible strap around it, seems to be deflecting the rudder to its max.. Resting on the aft deck, its clearly that there is no deflection.
Looks like it's been strapped beyond it's max and has become displaced.
One has to remember that before it was moved it was photographed from various angles by the forensics team, so that once it was moved, any evidence would not be lost.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
GlenP From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 53 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 84953 times:
Correct me if I'm wrong,but wouldn't the cable that is slung around the V/S & rudder assembly from front to rear; & presumably tightened, cause the rudder to move?
Scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 10514 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 84950 times:
Quoting Ellehammer09 (Reply 7): I am in no way supporting theories of a terrorist attack
Until such time as each possible cause is eliminated, everything must be considered as a possibility, however remote.
Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 8): This deflection appears to be the same as when it was in the water. Not saying it is jammed.
The pictures of the VS on the deck of the Brasilian Navy ship appear to show it lying completely flat, certainly not at the angle in the picture you've posted.
Zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 6800 posts, RR: 74 Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 84850 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 229): But now please get a bit constructive and tell all of us what might, in your opinion, be the RIGHT information?
And I'll ask a question of you that I should have asked much earlier. As an experienced (and highly capable) Airbus pilot - has anything like that torrent of failure messages ever happened to you?
NAV, I will not speculate on here, I do not think you will find anyone who has my sort of background will, we just do not have all the facts.
The list of ACARS messages are MAINTENANCE messages, I generally never get to see maintenance messages until I shut down (unless I choose to look at the onboard central maintenance computer [CMC]) list in flight, as they are not displayed to the pilot). When I shut down, the first thing that comes out of the printer is the post flight report, that contains all the maintenance messages, and it is formatted nicely so you can actually read it. All I do is I scan through that list for any class 1 hard warnings, write those up in the aircraft technical log, and then put the post flight report it in the tech log for the mechanics to have. Class 2 and 3 messages do not make it to the tech log, they are captured on the post flight report, and then into in the airline maintenance system to be addressed at the next schedule service.
You can have a heap of maintenance messages in the CMC, and the pilots and passengers can be blissfully unaware of them due to all the system redundancy, pilots only get told about class 1 warnings, either by an ECAM or a flag. The CMC may generate a fault message, and still continue to function correctly, the built in test equipment (BITE) in these systems will pick up on lots of things that mechanics may need to look at some stage, but would not prevent the aircraft being dispatched on the next sector. The messages are classified as class 1 (must be looked at before by next sector), class 2 in the next 600h, and class 3, no specific time.
The differance between these ACARS messages and the FDR messages, is that on the FDR we can actually see the state (normal or fault) of each device in a time series, see which flag was displayed etc, can see what was and was not functioning in a time series. The ACARS list only gives the mechanics a time stamp and flight phase when a message was generated, the component may have been in that state for 1 second, 30 seconds or remain in a fault state, it will generate the same message in the CMC.
Quoting GlenP (Reply 14): Correct me if I'm wrong,but wouldn't the cable that is slung around the V/S & rudder assembly from front to rear; & presumably tightened, cause the rudder to move?
Yep, just like wind will cause a rudder to move when it parked at the gate.
Gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 818 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 84531 times:
Anybody has an estimate of the distance this honeycomb tail fin can travel floating in the ocean in a day or two ?
Giving the fact that the torque box looks ripped out of the fuselage ( See pics in post 61 Part 15 ), and considering the close proximity of the CVR and FDR with this part of the aircraft, the search area for the boxes can be reduced a lot with this.
I wish the best luck to the Emerald Sub crew in its effort to find them. They have three weeks before the ping start to fade....
Saludos.
G.
Circling the world, that's the way to live !! DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fokker F-27 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 15102 posts, RR: 69 Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 84477 times:
"brouaviation
This wasn't just a celebrity, it was a founder and owner of two highly respected companies in the aviation industry, being Lauda Air and FlyNiki. Second, he knows were he's talking about, as 'his' Lauda Air lost an aircraft in kind of the same way as AF447 crashed. "
"In kind of the same way"? Not at all. The Lauda Air 767 crashed because of in-cruise reverser deployment. There have been no indications that the same thing happened here. I'm assuming an ACARS message would report it.
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
RFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 4870 posts, RR: 21 Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 84434 times:
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17): Anybody has an estimate of the distance this honeycomb tail fin can travel floating in the ocean in a day or two ?
People on the other thread quoted the Brasilian Navy as saying surface currents in the area run 3 to 5 kts per hour. I assume the tailfin would be moved only by surface currents, not significantly influenced by winds due to the way it was floating. But I could be wrong about that.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 5880 posts, RR: 74 Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 84137 times:
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 19): People on the other thread quoted the Brasilian Navy as saying surface currents in the area run 3 to 5 kts per hour. I assume the tailfin would be moved only by surface currents, not significantly influenced by winds due to the way it was floating. But I could be wrong about that.
Thank you...
OK, let's say it's 3kts... that gives it 72NM per day... give it 5 days and it's 370NM to which there is no guarantee that (and evidently) the debris and bodies will all move at the same rate and in the same direction resulting in a conveniently right cluster... So, even if the aircraft did breakup upon water impact, or shortly before, a 90km spread after a few days isn't hard to achieve... therefore, NAV20, it doesn't prove or explain that it was a high-altitude breakup, although it cannot be ruled out at this stage.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
B707forever From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 459 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 83656 times:
Call me whatever but I'm so curious to know what's really happening behind the scenes with the lawyers. What's the positioning between Airbus and AF litigation teams and how are the families bonding to prepare to sue.
And as the backdrop, what are the positioning points being played out. If it turns out to be the pitot and the speed issue, it's going to be very interesting to see how it's all settled.
Versabob From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 83521 times:
I only occasionally follow this forum, so the following question may be a possible repeat. At a cruising altitude of 30,000+, is there signficant risk of ice obstruction inside pitot tubes? At that altitude, air is very cold but typically also very dry.
< nitpick >
"Knot" means "nautical mile per hour". Saying "knot per hour" is redundant. Or, I guess, a measure of acceleration.
< /nitpick >
Quoting Versabob (Reply 22): At a cruising altitude of 30,000+, is there signficant risk of ice obstruction inside pitot tubes? At that altitude, air is very cold but typically also very dry.
If you're flying near or in a thunderstorm, I would say yes.
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
Pdoucy From France, joined Jun 2009, 3 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 82855 times:
Quoting Versabob (Reply 22): Call me whatever but I'm so curious to know what's really happening behind the scenes with the lawyers. What's the positioning between Airbus and AF litigation teams and how are the families bonding to prepare to sue.
I don't understand why it is a given that families will sue. At this point, sue whom, for what ?
DaBuzzard From Canada, joined Sep 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 82694 times:
Quoting Pdoucy (Reply 24): I don't understand why it is a given that families will sue. At this point, sue whom, for what ?
Sue everyone for everything, standard practice in cases like this. When the investigation is complete the courts will decide who pays what to whom.
25 Thomson735: Yes there is a significant risk especially if you are above/near a thunderstorm or another type of large weather system, remeber icing is pretty much
26 Tugger: Because 228 family members are dead and the surviving family members want answers and someone will be blamed. Whether it's the crew, the aircraft man
27 RFields5421: From the previous thread Navy and salvage experts around the world have learned very hard and deadly lessons to never trust any large item to float. A
28 Dragon6172: My guess is that it is bags that held all the ropes and straps that they are securing around the fin to prepare it for hoisting.
29 RFields5421: This was an international flight, while some folks will cite the Warsaw Conventions and the $75,000 limit on damages, those limits no longer apply. T
30 Ac888yow: As an aside, a relative of mine who is legal counsel at PWC (Pratt Canada) told me that "who" is obviously the party(ies) deemed to be negligent or a
31 Theredbaron: I guess the amount depends on the lawyers... I could make tons of jokes about lawyers but in this situation Ill refrain, out of respect for these trag
32 Luv2cattlecall: " target=_blank>http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...1.jpg I've never been up close to a tail before, and it may be an optical illusion...but is th
33 Starlionblue: I have noticed that more modern fins tend to be more "slender", that is less extended along the long axis of the aircraft, than their older counterpa
34 Bravo1six: While I agree with the premise regarding how the system works, just because an accident has occurred doesn't immediately mean that there is any liabi
35 LTBEWR: While it may be distasteful to discuss about potential litigation or otherwise seeking of money compenstion by families of victims of this crash, ther
36 FuturePilot16: At the same time, they can't bring any lawsuit against anyone too hastily, because I know that if I was a judge, a case like this would have to have
37 Babybus: I think if I had just lost someone in a crash only a few days ago I wouldn't yet be thinking of ways to sue the airline. There would be more pressing
38 Soon7x7: I don't understand the rudder deflection concern...the deflection evident in the photos is a result of counterbalance weights attached to the leading
39 Soon7x7: Has this airframe been in Chicago? Is it possible the TSA had a field trip to visit an A332 and climbed on the pitot tubes to look inside the cockpit.
40 Jerblaine: I am ready for them to find some more debris. Does anyone have any new pics of new debris found? or how about pics of any bodies being recovered?
41 FCA767: I couldn't tell if pihero was dis-crediting my idea or the others...all I saw was eggs for someone...which coincidently is what we mostly ate in ST.
42 Oly720man: I seriously doubt it. After what the bodies have been though they won't be a pretty sight. At best you'll see a body bag, but I'd imagine the media w
43 FCA767: But that's the same as "stasis's" Post but in french...its just because they cant prove the birth dates...which is strange as they would have someone
45 A380Heavy: With us being on Part 16 of this thread it is easy to miss some information so please forgive me. Do we know yet whether the aircraft broke up at crui
46 777DEN: Unknown Unknown, the bodies are still in transit to the morgue probably not , but unknown at this time yes, once the autopsies are done one report of
47 NA: I guess 99% can´t follow this so closely they can keep track with the 2000+ posts so far. As for the ones so intensely looking at the rudder and a p
48 Tietkej: We forgive you. No, seems impossible to narrow down at this stage. I think the bodies that have been recovered so far are being brought to an undiscl
49 RFields5421: We really know nothing about the bodies other than the reported number which have been picked up. They are using DNA for identification - not unusual
50 757GB: I'll ask this again because it's not an easy question and probably the forum experts on this topic might have not seen it (it was on a previous part o
51 Jerblaine: It just seems to me that it is possible that the storm was just too strong. Do we have the technology to stay in flight through the most powerful stor
52 Doktor71: As it is impossible to read all the posts in this topic, may I ask for a brief summary of the most important facts/details giving an idea or somewhat
53 LH526: What would be notewowrthy about it? A plane impacting the ocean with lot's of G forces and disintegrating into shrapnels wcould possibly rip a raft o
54 LTC8K6: AF447 did not complete it's flight and crashed in the ocean.
55 Doktor71: Thanks, I assume that there is no more fact to talk about?
56 757GB: Yep. That´s pretty much the size of it. Everything else is speculation (some of it very good), but essentially we need to keep remembering time afte
58 Doktor71: So may I ask for the "good speculations" without embarrassing anyone?
59 Goooooaaal: I think that we can make the determination at this point that this aircraft broke up in the air, albeit we do not know how it came apart, or why, or a
60 Desh: Has anyone seen this - sorry did not have time to review all prior threads .. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/world/americas/11plane.html?_r=1&hp "N
61 757GB: You're absolutely right, and I didn't mean to come across as not caring about your question. If I did I apologize. Some of the speculation I've read
62 Doktor71: Thank you very much for this summary. Perhaps other expert (users) may contribute with more details.
63 LTC8K6: The article fails to live up to the headline.
64 Pihero: Agree, except the very last paragraph : "A Delta Air Lines spokeswoman, Betsey Talton, said Delta had replaced the tubes on some models and was repla
65 LTC8K6: Does that mean Delta was already replacing them on A330's, or has now begun to replace them? ********** http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-0
66 StuckInCA: I don't really understand people in every part of this 16 part discussion jumping in asking for a personal update. There's been a summary of what's kn
67 EI787: Many posts have had to be unnecessarily deleted in this thread due to people responding to posts which had to be removed. If you feel a post is in bre
68 RFields5421: Since my post was deleted, I won't reference other posts. What is / was the supply status of the new model pitot assemblies? Were there dozens/ hundre
69 Mandala499: 'Tis a minor one... for a much greater benefit! -------------- Let me go back to the 3 phases of an incident/accident. You have: 1. Normal phase A. T
70 Airtechy: I still don't believe that we have any evidence that this flight flew into a "massive" thunderstorm. Other flights successfully deviated around the bu
71 Canoecarrier: Probably the best post I've seen on this topic so far. I appreciate that rather than jumping to a conclusion you've approached this as a septic, slow
72 UPSMD11: In regards to the pitot tubes getting the air speed, is there a way to use GPS to get this? I am guessing not as GPS, if available in all parts of the
73 Tangowhisky: I apologize if this was explained before, but would the complete loss of airspeed data make the rudder limiter ineffective? If so, could this mean tha
74 Mir: It's as much for PR as it is response to union demands/requests (and it's the right thing to do). Nitpicking, but if the sensors were compromised, it
75 Mandala499: There's a discussion about this in techops.... Anyways, theoretically you can derive some sort of airspeed through realtime trigonometric vector calc
76 Type-Rated: There are some similarities in this crash to the NW Boeing 720 crash in the Everglades back in 1963. That plane was at 17,000 feet, entered a T-Storm
77 Mandala499: Tailfin separation causing them to enter the problem phase, or after they entered the problem phase? (See Post #69) on the "3 phases of an accident/i
78 Iwok: Mandala. Quick note. If the plane broke up at altitude, the debris would hit the water over a large area. Then with ocean currents, the whole debris
79 Mandala499: With all due respect, we have discussed this almost to the brink of death in the previous topics (which some replies may have been deleted for housek
80 BA319-131: - This is perhaps the best post in the entire 16 parts of this story, welcome to my respected list. Thanks for your informative and detailed opinion
81 WingedMigrator: It's not just wind. It's also wave action and ocean current turbulence. Finding a 90 km debris field 1 week after the fact requires only about half a
82 LTC8K6: Had the debris been found right away, you would be correct. Since the debris had several days to move around, we cannot draw those conclusions from i
83 Canoecarrier: Since we're back on debris drift. I ran across this article recently: http://www.prweb.com/releases/Search...nvironmental_Data/prweb2522584.htm The U
84 757GB: Rather than nitpicking, it's a very good point. Thank you.
85 Pihero: RE-post for references on the BEA site : From Alhena : "Found this on the BEA site. Think it wasn't posted yet:" SHOM oceanic study For those interest
86 LTC8K6: So there were thunderstorms, but nothing exceptional then?
87 Khobar: You touched on a point I thought of a while back - if there was turbulence ahead, the normal procedure would be to slow down, and this would have hap
88 WingedMigrator: Me too. And they've barely started the search... the Emeraude just got underway, as did the two US towed sonar arrays. The Nautile and the ROVs aren'
89 Khobar: Wow...I don't know if this was already posted: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525835,00.html "An Italian woman was killed in a car crash in Austr
90 Sniffmom: Guess my point got lost because I didn't express myself good enough, but the French title says "No terrorists aboard AF 447". Someone first started r
91 764: I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but do we have any evidence that AF 447 was actually traveling at thirty something thousand feet? Is it a
92 Tangowhisky: Thank you Mandala499 once again for taking the time and explain. I guess the only reason a pilot may press the rudder would be in attempt to recover
94 Dragon6172: Reminds me of a plot from a series of movies that have gone on way too long. Final Destination? They are coming out with another of those ridiculous
95 Alhena: There have been numerous posts about the meaning of the limiter fault warning. Also seems not to be an unusual warning. The warning about limiter fau
96 Tietkej: Apparently so, since it didn't leave radar surveillance until 0148Z (if the media got that right).
97 Jbernie: Question: Wouldn't a humid environment, or even just flying into regular rain prior to flying into a very cold section of air be enough to cause the
98 Sniffmom: Number of bodies found is now 44, according to FAB. http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?mostra=3169
99 Alhena: http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?mostra=3168 FAB (Brazilian airforce) is reporting that weather conditions around TASIL are getting worse,
100 Khobar: I asked before but where is the third fin mount lug/clevis?
101 LongHaul67: Don't know if this has been posted already. From AF website 11 June 2009: Air France Chief Executive Officer Pierre-Henri Gourgeon today met with memb
102 Zeke: Alternate Law and the Rudder Travel Limiter would be linked to F/CTL ADR DISAGREE.
103 Mir: The Final Destination movies have plots? Humidity no, rain yes (provided it remained on the pitot tube as the air got colder, which is difficult at h
104 Jbernie: Thank you for the response. Agree with the improbability of it, just didn't think it would quite fall into the 100% impossible category.
105 AVLNative: From http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2009061...9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNjYW5haXJmcmFuY2U- ... But after 10 days of searching, the authorities combing what's beli
106 Starlionblue: As I understand it, if airspeed data is lost the limiter remains set to the last speed it got. In other words, if the last speed it got was 300kt, it
107 764: Good point. Although I am still wondering whether the aircraft could have - for whatever reason - ended up descending without pilots' knowledge. Othe
108 HAMAD: this article on cnn, indicates that the CEO beleives that it is terrorism, and not the airspeed sensors. not sure if he is trying to cover something u
109 Kiwiandrew: " target=_blank>http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics...group I think that it is stretching it a bit to say that the article indicates the CEO believe
110 GlenP: Sorry Hamad, but the CNN piece is basically a restatement of Longhaul67's reply 101, with additional, separate details of the possible terrorists on b
111 Pylon101: Time is running out. Just read on Yahoo/AP that the French submarine is capable to cover 13 square miles/35 squate km A DAY!!! And effective US milita
112 David L: I have to agree with GlenP. The CEO does not say anything to suggest he believes terrorism was involved. As for a "cover up", all he is saying is tha
113 Pihero: Bad interpretation ! This ABCNews is more accurate : "The sub, the Emeraude, which is equipped with high-tech sonar equipment, joins search teams fro
114 Pihero: The ACARS uses either VHF or satellite links for data transmission. The messages are automatically sent when a system declares a fault and the mainte
115 NA: But sounds underwater can be heard from a much larger distance than above water, so they can be quite some distance away to at least hear the "ping"
116 Pihero: See post # 85 and the link to the SHOM study of propagation.
117 Nomadd22: It's like trying to find something in space. There are very large, high gain accoustical sensors that could pick up the signal from many miles away,
118 LTC8K6: 30 days is the minimum spec. They will almost certainly ping for much longer than 30 days.
120 Hiflyer: With the P3 dropping sonobuoys and couple choppers with dipping sonar to boot. I know secrecy is great but in this case perhaps there would be a grea
121 Theredbaron: Well now details are emerging about the posibility of an inflight breakup. The article does not identify the source, but the info is consistent with t
122 A388: If there was an explosion in let's say the lower deck cargo hold, not all passengers will get burns. If the passengers of which they have found the b
123 FCA767: he didnt mean anything bad...he just knows his navy...so used that
124 GlenP: Personally, I think it's probably better to wait for something official to be released,rather than taking a news media item, citing an unindentified
125 Hiflyer: I believe the various organizations have stated that they are officially releasing no details on bodies until after recovery efforts are over and all
126 CasInterest: Has there been an updated Debris Map released by the Search Authorities. The other day we had one that showed where the bodies, vertical stabilizer an
127 Nomadd22: Didn't mean to and I shouldn't have worded it that way. Although I have some knowledge of US capability I have to admit none whatsoever of French equ
128 Nomadd22: You're probably right if they're covering a large area. They wouldn't have the same capability as subs, but you could cover much more ocean in a much
129 Slinky09: No new maps but there is a notice on the Brazillian forces pages saying: "Command and the Navy Command of the Air report that, in recent hours, aircr
130 Pihero: Ladies and Gentlemen, May I remind you once again to be very careful with quick conclusions based on perceived effects and phenomena ? For instance, -
131 Pylon101: So the good news is that LA class US submarines joint the operation. All is classified - but those are supposed to be effective. Pihero, I went to th
132 Soon7x7: Can you tell me if the vertical fin torque box on the A332 is common to the A300, A340 series with the various leading edges, fin caps and respective
133 Pihero: It's another bloody problem of measuring units : The original Navy press release talks about a 20 Nm x 20 Nm square, so an area of 400 square nautica
134 MEA-707: Actually if it was terrorism, with so little clearity of the political agenda behind it and with already the current level of airport checks of cargo
135 Astuteman: Although that probably IS a slight to other people's Navies... But may not know other people's......... No matter. I digress.... Apols. I would have
136 Baroque: It is almost surprising that there is not constant coverage from sonobuoys a bit lke satellite coverage only more so. Possibly the relation of the se
138 Pylon101: Still it would be much easier for many of if those who follow investigation really close: 1. To provide information in plain English - what is perimet
139 Slinky09: This site belongs to the Brazilian Air Force who are providing images, maps and sometimes bi-daily updates. To translate, copy a page url to Google T
140 Alhena: some pictures of recovered debris: http://noticias.uol.com.br/album/090...as_album.jhtm?abrefoto=4#fotoNav=1
141 Alhena: From today's press conference as reported in http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/vo...-af447/2009/06/12/ult7483u173.jhtm probable are of impact is a cir
142 777jaah: Images #9 and 14 shows a couple of jumpseats. Looks like those were basically intact, and makes you wonder if the crew supposse to be sitting on them
143 Alhena: About the presentation on the shom site (reply 85): The sea floor is very accidented. Depths varying from 864 to 4696m - slide 3 slide 4: in red - roc
144 FlySSC: Air France A332 are fitted with 11 jumpseats for the F/A for a Crew of 9. Moreover, considering when the accident occurred (more than 3 hours after t
145 Sdq777: I haven't looked at all the post, so if this has been posted, sorry. But it's interesting to note that if the aircraft did indeed enter a severe thun
146 FrmrCAPCADET: Sonobuoys would not seem to have to be all that expensive, and an appropriate plane could have got there and dropped them in hours versus days/even a
147 Pylon101: These numbers appear to be doable, don't they? Even having in mind the minimum signal if boxes are on max. depth. Thanks, Alhena.
148 RFields5421: No, just an acknowledgement of the impact of cubic dollars/pounds/euros thrown into a defense budget. The French have good submarines. Much better th
149 RFields5421: Sonobouys are not designed to search for the depths of this area. They are designed and optimized to detect sounds at depths up to 2,000 ft and in ce
150 Alhena: I guess so. I think to remember the Émeraude being capable of covering something like 35 x 35 km a day (sources are very messy with figures, especia
151 Pihero: RField, Thanks for the infos. Here is the one, already on site, along with another two ROVs. All are aboard the "Pourquoi Pas ?" (meaning "Why Not ?")
152 Gonzalo: Can somebody with a deep knowledge of the A330 lay out identify this items on the pics ? So far I can see two jump seats ( or flatbeds for crew rest
153 WingedMigrator: Just what the doctor ordered: http://www.ifremer.fr/fleet/systemes_sm/engins/nautile.htm Arrived at the crash site today.
154 RFields5421: No. This is a very specialized area with the incredible costs only being worthwile to build such a submersible once every couple decades. Everyone of
155 Vasu: Those pictures of debris were kinda chilling... especially the oxygen mask. To think that someone could've been wearing it during the whole ordeal bro
156 RFields5421: Way, way too technical for most folks on this forum. I've had supposedly knowledgable university professors argue with US Navy submarine sonar operat
157 OA260: Yes thats exactly what I was thinking, quite upsetting really.
158 Desh: At what depth does the black box implode ? Is that a know metric - pounds or kgs per sq inch or cm ? Is there a cut off depth beyond which the search
159 RFields5421: Those masks look to still be in the stowed position, not extended for use. Airplane crashes are very difficult events. Only when you see a site befor
160 Pihero: That FAB site revealed, but not in English some rather interesting pieces of information : " O Comando da Marinha e o Comando da Aeronáutica informam
161 Comorin: Assuming that a ping is hearable within a 1 km square, and that a ping happens every 30 seconds, we would need the underwater listening device to tra
162 Astuteman: Which hasn't always resulted in better capability..... I mentioned them about 35 threads ago... Rgds
163 Nomadd22: Professors love using perfect fluids, whatever point on the curve suits them and fewer variables than you would ever find in the real world. The good
164 RFields5421: I do not know who made the FDR / CVR for this aircraft - but a brochure from Sagem Defense Securitie list their SSFDR specs as http://www.sagemavioni
165 DocLightning: Look, the financial costs of a plane crash are monumental. The human costs of a plane crash are monumental. With various governments and their respec
166 Sniffmom: FAB says the French Navy has found more bodies, but that the number won't be disclosed until the bodies are transferred to the Brazilian Navy. The Con
167 Mir: I believe the device transmits once per second. -Mir
168 Comorin: Thank you for the correction, and apologies to all for posting misleading information without checking the facts. Luckily the final numbers still wor
169 Jeffbart33: I understand that mainly passive sonar would be used to locate the FDR and CVR, listening for the pings hopefully coming from their locators. Since w
170 F9Animal: This news alone is very interesting. If there was no water in the lungs, then that rests my fear of survivors drowning, or dying before rescuers arri
171 Iwok: I was wondering about SOSUS as well. Is it still active? If so, shouldn't they be able to triangulate the crash position based on the loud noise that
172 2175301: Concerning the search for the CVR and FDR and the technologies being brought into play: The French submarine Emeraude is likely to have just as good p
173 RFields5421: On one of the previous threads I described how we used to use the Antigua NAVFAC with the Antigua, Barbados and Grand Turk SOSUS arrays to locate roc
174 Comorin: Thank you for an excellent, informative post that answers a lot of questions. On a different tack, I suspect that the debris field could be drifting
175 2175301: RFFields5421 is correct. In addition, even if the US (or someone else) has a survelience system that located the crash location I am far from convinc
176 Wjcandee: I am constantly amazed by media reports that "there was no explosion or fire" because the bodies recently recovered weren't burned (the 16 they saw, t
177 JetMARC: The Survival image is most likely a survival kit that is attached to the slide-raft (in the slide pack) which deploys automatically when the door is
178 Mir: They definitely can be. But I would imagine that whatever wreckage is too heavy to float has found its way to the bottom by now, and it's not going t
179 Sxmarbury33: Just curious, how much bandwitdth would it take to have a sat uplink for a "streaming" FDR alongside a hard FDR. It seems a little archaic that after
180 Baroque: You are right, I should have followed Pihero's link - I was waiting for the book as in Reply 151 when all along the film was showing at http://www.be
181 Alhena: You're right. I got got confused with the ~ 1500 m/s at surface and read that as being the same as 1.5 km/h which is obviously wrong.
182 Pylon101: With all sufficient information provided - thanks to all having knowledge and who has been participating in this discussion - we should follow the FDR
183 OA260: Very true , in some ways its as hard for them as the families. I couldnt do a job like that I have to admit.
184 Breiz: Not really strange if you take into account the proximity of the mid-atlantic ridge. This ridge is an active line of magma spill-outs which pushes sl
185 757GB: Thank you very much for the information.
186 Comorin: I just saw this excellent slideshow with some new pictures of the recovered wreckage on Time magazine's website: http://www.time.com/time/photogallery
187 RFields5421: There are several issues. One of course is bandwidth and maintaining a consistent connection in remote areas of the world. The bandwidth is readily a
188 757GB: Thank you for sharing. I can't say I "enjoyed" watching them. For me at least it really brings home how tragic this is, besides all the technical dis
189 Mrocktor: To deal with turbulence? It may be incorrect piloting technique, but we have the worst sort of evidence that pilots do it.
190 ZANL188: Reading all the FDR/CVR posts in the AF447 threads... and all the FDR/CVR threads popping up elsewhere as a result of AF447 has left me with this thou
191 2175301: A deployable CVR/FDR is also a lot more expensive than the current system. Military aircraft do not have the cost structure that civilian aircraft ha
192 ZANL188: But I'm not comparing it to the current system, compare it with the other schemes I mentioned that transmit data, from every aircraft, before the cra
193 Kappel: Actually, over 50 bodies have been retrieved so far. And the debris retrieved also does not have any burn marks on it. But granted.. it's still way t
194 Baroque: It is the lower salinities between about 500 and 1200 m that interest me. Higher bottom water temperatures around mid ocean ridges are not likely to
195 Nomadd22: There's no need for thousands of streams of data. All systems can stay locked onto a few available channels and only open up a transmission at need,
196 Breiz: Sorry if I misunderstood you. The presence of the so-called "conveyor belt" in the Atlantic brings surface artic waters down to the depths of the equ
197 Tietkej: German magazine "Der Spiegel" (considered a reputable magazine in Germany) is now reporting that all 50 of the dead passengers (may they rest in peace
198 DRAIGONAIR: Anyone know what this is? Looks like a spoiler? http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/FOTOS/130609/img_5.JPG
199 KingFriday013: " target=_blank>http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/...5.JPG Certainly looks like one. Here's more of it: http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/FOTOS/13
200 Mcdu: The picture of the jumpseats from the cabin are interesting. Not sure what the staffing level is on AF but if the flight was encountering turbulence
201 RFields5421: I agree, though my answer was focused on why full FDR/CVR data is not streamed back fulltin. I suspect some type of burst transmission of very limite
202 Tietkej: Yes, the violent damage is indeed stunning. Mir, Zeke, Mandala, Pihero, does this give you any indications of possible new/existing scenarios? I'd ha
203 Pihero: In fact it's the whole group that could bring a few clues : - The twin jumpseats are in all probability those fixed on the aft bulkhead. The give-awa
206 Nomadd22: Ah. My fault for being too lazy to read everything. Maybe it's time to start talking to Iridium about their next generation system. Make it something
207 Type-Rated: It possibly could have been damaged further by colliding with other pieces of the aircraft on the way down from 35,000 ft. After it broke up each pie
208 Scipio: Interestingly, the tailfin does not show such collision damage, which could be compatible with the hypothesis that it detached somewhere early on in
209 Tietkej: Still wild speculation, but one scenario. Different question: Suppose a plane like the A332 goes into a largely uncontrolled high-speed dive. Would a
210 Comorin: Good point! I guess three things could have happened to the spoiler: 1. It was deployed to slow the aircraft. 2. It got ripped off and the points of
211 Philhyde: Someone else already pointed out that this flight had a crew of 9 with 11 jumpseats. Also, at that point in the flight, some of the crew were undoubt
212 HNL-Jack: That seems likely. Had a chance to view UA 811 after it returned to HNL and the damage to the tail was severe from various parts of the plane and oth
213 Alhena: What are the conditions necessary for spoiler deployment? From the TAM accident at CGH I remember positive gear pressure and throtles at or near idle.
214 Jbernie: On initial inspection, based on the damage shown in the img_4 & 5 photos it would appear that the impact would have been on the side shown in img_6 a
215 Alhena: (spoiler images) according to this report (portuguese) http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/vo...-af447/2009/06/13/ult7483u180.jhtm The vessel that retr
216 Zeke: We just do not have enough factual information to draw any sort of conclusion from anything found so far. The information search will take months, be
217 Type-Rated: This theory of yours has a high possibility. If the VS went first then the aircraft would definitely been uncontrolable. Look at the AA A300 at JFK a
218 SSTsomeday: I just wanted to point out the report from Bloomberg (as indicated in post 121): "Most of the 16 bodies examined in preliminary stages of the probe i
219 Tietkej: Thanks, Zeke. I agree. Still, I think we may be moving to a point where some scenarios are gaining more probability than others. But, even if we knew
220 Crjfixer: No such thing as a dumb question especially when noone has the answers yet. If that is indeed the spoiler (which it looks like to me as well) It look
221 Baroque: You will note that this low salinity zone more or less corresponds with a velocity low. Happily, the gradation to lower velocities appears to be grad
222 Alhena: Precipitation in the ITCZ is larger than evaporation. Fresh water intake from the Amazon does play a role, but it's taken north by currents and doesn
223 AF Cabin Crew: I believe these jumpseats are the front one. There are 2 blocks of dual seats 1 by door 1L where the CCP/Chief Purser seat and one in the aft galley
224 Alhena: I looks bent backwards on images 4 and 5 and forward on imges 3 and 6. Could it be somewhat 'flexible' at the damage area?
225 Mestrugo: You're confusing spoilers with thrust reversers. Spoilers can be activated at any moment to reduce speed, while thrust reversers can only be activate
226 Pihero: Yes, apparently, the damage should be "reversed". Unless - as some poster remarked on another site - the airplane was flying backward tail- first, it
227 Spacecadet: Not necessarily, in fact I can't think of a case when that has happened, and I can think of plenty of cases when thrust reversers deployed in flight.
228 Alhena: What I understood from the TAM case was that during landing spoilers would have to be used to reduce lift. The speed-brake function must be somewhat
229 Crjfixer: Im not sure about Airbus but some manufacturers call them all spoilers. Most aircraft have flight spoilers, spoilerons, and ground spoilers. Flight s
230 Giopan1975: Many interesting views coming from pilots at one of Tim Vasquez pages. http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/comments.shtml Many of them puzzled by
231 757GB: I know there's been especulation regarding the rudder. This came out less than 1/2 hour ago. Maybe it's old news. If so please disregard. Apparently t
232 Tietkej: Hmm, the source contains this: "One of the 24 automatic messages sent from the plane minutes before it disappeared points to a problem in the "rudder
233 AirbusA370: This is old news. It was also already established that the rudder limiter message most certainly was caused by the Air Data Disagree problem and the r
234 AirbusA370: I think, it went like this (speculation mode on) - Crew flies into severe weather - Airspeed information becomes unreliable (maybe because of iced/clo
235 LTBEWR: As to the recovered and possibly unoccpied 'jump seats', one has to wonder if maybe there wasn't enough time for the f/a's to get into the seats. It w
236 LongHaul67: That would be the rudder limiter. Has been discussedat length in previous AF447 thread parts.
237 EcuadorianMD11: It´s a plausible scenario I suppose...........but wouldn´t it be great to find those orange boxes in order to obtain some cold hard evidence!?? But
238 David L: I thought it had been discussed that the messages do not suggest that any systems had been rebooted. I may have misunderstood, however.
240 ARGinLON: The crew could have been in the rest area by then. Remember this happened 3 hours into the flight.
241 RFields5421: Not necessarily. There was a lot of discussion of the physics of HF radio on some of the early threads. A ship, or airplane, might well have very goo
242 Guillermo: That thing in fact seems like a spoiler. However, watching closely to that photographs furnished by the Brazilian Air force (http://www.fab.mil.br/por
243 757GB: Thank you very much for sharing all that work and analysis. In my case seeing the spoiler also brought back memories from that Austral flight. It act
244 TheRedBaron: Add that maybe after the auto pilot disconects it gives the crew an uncontrolable airplane in moderate to heavy turbulence... Pure speculation but se
245 Mandala499: And this drives us nuts... literally... We can only come up with the most possible scenarios, which includes significant extrapolations... hence, the
246 474218: Spoiler is the correct name for the control surface. Spoilers preform many different functions depending upon the aircraft/manfacture. They can be us
247 Theredbaron: Mandala its been in my thoughts from day 1 that the crew most likely had no idea of the problems they would be facing maybe seconds before they happen
248 AverageUser: You can't evade it: first there's the bandwidth issue, then the issue that for satellite communication to take place, the antenna will have to be dir
249 Boacvc10: Just a comment for future thought, not particularly relevant to the AF447 incident, but really relevant to air safety: If the "black boxes" are so imp
250 Soon7x7: Why not install them in the vertical fin in the A/BUS models since they fair so well in accidents..and float...I mean this seriously!...j
251 Alhena: Another view of the VS/Rudder: http://www.estadao.com.br/fotos/airbus600.jpg
252 OA260: Thanks for taking the time to post. I found it very interesting.
253 Viscount724: You're overlooking the DC-8 which only has ground spoilers. DC-8 spoilers cannot be used in the air which is why the DC-8 is one of the few aircraft
254 Bramble: Not neccessarily. Perhaps AF are still tidying up the meal service 3 hours into the flight. Not sure myself as havne't flown them personally. The cre
255 2175301: I am sure that whatever satellites that were in an orbit to look at this area have looked. Unfortunaelty, debris and other gunk floating on the surfa
256 ZANL188: Most of the typical earth resources satellites that would be equipped for this kind of thing are in 12hour sun synchronous polar orbits. This is done
257 N49wa: Boeing defends Airbus jet http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/boei...-airbus-over-crash-inquiry-2783253
258 Gonzalo: I think that is the most logical position. Taking aside the "fair play" expected in a situation like this, Boeing and Airbus products share a lot of
259 Pihero: In fact, in all certainty, it's spoiler #1 L. It is longer and less square than the others. It also has a lesser angle of deployment than the rest of
260 Mandala499: Would they willingly and knowingly go through severe turbulent area (to the extent of being "dangerous"? Whilst your comment is fair, others such as
261 FCA767: Hi Mandala, Taking that Black spot of turbulence you see in the radar return...say if you were flying in clear sky...and get that clear air turb...co
262 Osteogenesis: " target=_blank>http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/boei...83253 My respect for Mr Jim McNerney! Just wished many A Netters would behave the same!
263 Mandala499: Well, this so called black spots... you avoid them when it's surrounded by red (and/or purple). The radar colours shows the intensity of the precipit
264 Pihero: By definition CAT doesn't show on radar. Only defense is a flight level change, or if CAT is identified as linked to mountain waves, or generally in
265 Giopan1975: I don’t see any reason why cockpit crews cannot be blamed for anything (even at this stage of the investigation and being totally speculative with v
266 Pihero: Reason ? Decency is one. Humility for accepting the fact that one knows nothing is two. Intellectual honesty based on lack of basic understanding on
267 NA: That is imho very likely. It was reported all other flights deviated, just not AF447, though I´m still waiting for the confirmation that the deviati
268 Giopan1975: Have a look at some of deviation senarios discussed by a captain found on this page http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/comments.shtml "This has
269 Pihero: Unless you have a crystal ball, you don't whether the flight has diverted or not. Therefore, you, along with your fiend above have no right to pose a
271 Tietkej: That is spot on, Pihero. Thanks for venting your frustration, because I agree this is going too far. We're not predicting the weather here, nor are w
272 David L: Let me get this straight: you're saying that even if weather had nothing at all to do with this accident, you still want to "blame" the AF crew for b
273 NA: Well, the IB flight 10 minutes behind AF447 deviated some 200 miles or more to the west. AF 447 last position and the area where the wreckage was fou
274 Mandala499: Internet back online... finally... I am appalled that one writes "I don’t see any reason why cockpit crews cannot be blamed for anything"... at this
275 Pihero: "more or less "is the right word.Prove to us that the aircraft did not deviate. If you can't, you're talking out of turn. The wreckage was found is c
276 NA: Proven is almost nothing in regards of AF447, only that it approached, likely entered a severe storm and encoutered severe turbulance. As for a devia
277 Desediez: Excuse me, if this has been posted allready... looking at this photo http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/FOTOS/120609/img_8.JPG IMO the piece with the
278 Catseye: Suggesting pilot error on a predominately pilot contributed forum was ill-informed. Professional airline pilots undergo extensive theoretical and pra
279 Comorin: Mandala99, a fascinating post! Thanks for taking us into your cockpit. I was intrigued by your reference to ADMP, and since have Googled the term. Do
280 Giopan1975: I do not want to get misunderstood with this pilot error scenario that irritated some people. But pilot error as in underestimating the severity of t
281 David L: That's a bit misleading - you've taken my words out of context. Look at the comment I was responding to. In fact, look at the rest of the sentence yo
282 Mandala499: Ever tried reporting a deviation in Africa or congested HF airspace? In a non-radar environment... the atc couldn't care less whether you deviate or
283 Normie999: Back in the day, a zillion entries ago, I speculated about Air France's "excellent safety record" (entry 6 at - AF A332 Crash (F-GZCP) Part 14 (by Mod
284 FCA767: Thanks for another good informative post
285 Tietkej: You're missing the point: we're not blaming anyone or anything. We're trying to establish the root cause of the accident and this not possible so far
286 Normie999: You're missing the point: we're not blaming anyone or anything. We're trying to establish the root cause of the accident and this not possible so far.
287 Mandala499: Before anyone misunderstands... let me set the record straight, I am not a licensed pilot. The closest I've been to that is taking my hands on the yo
288 RFields5421: I would be very interested to see some confirmation, because everything I've seen/ heard is that almost no flights deviated their flight plans more t
289 Sneiled: I have been reading mostly all posts on Airliners and pprune about AF447 crash since the breaking news on 1st of June. From day one, some media made t
290 Goooooaaal: The only thing we can say with any degree of certainty is that the evidence strongly suggests a break up in the air. Unfortunately, everything beyond
291 Pihero: In order to give some sense in the mad house. One of the most common aspects following an accident is the number of conflicting senses of urgency, foc
292 Giopan1975: A nice video of an active CB.....quite scary. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2CdUnbKO28
294 FCA767: " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2CdU...bKO28 wow nice...I never knew it does it that regularly...normally from the groun you see 1 li
295 Rikkus67: A great place to see such amazing power is in Arizona in late August/early September, during monsoon season. I have never experienced such a raw disp
296 Spacecadet: Also in the middle part of the USA, in "big sky country". I have never seen such storms as I have seen driving through Nebraska. Amazing thing is you
297 NA: Thanks for your explanation. Usually top weapon, or better, defence systems are more capable than is being reported to the public. Just think about s
298 Speedbird128: As a radar and non-radar controller, it does matter to me if there is track deviation. It *can* affect the longitudinal time separation if the aircra
299 Moderators: Continue here please: AF A332 Crash (F-GZCP) - Part 17 (by Moderators Jun 15 2009 in Civil Aviation) Many thanks.
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