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Wingletted 752s To Europe Are Now 'heavy'?  
User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7483 posts, RR: 7
Posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10320 times:

I was just listening to jfk tower , and that's what an AA pilot told the tower. News to me , i thought it was only the -300's that were heavy.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL172


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10281 times:

We aren't doing that...

Sounds like someone got the wrong memo.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7483 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10213 times:

Well,he was using a heavy amendment...


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineAdipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10203 times:



Quoting United_Fan (Thread starter):
I was just listening to jfk tower , and that's what an AA pilot told the tower. News to me , i thought it was only the -300's that were heavy.

All 757 are "heavy" in terms of their wake turbulence.



707 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 752 753 762 763 764 D9S D10 319 320 321 M80 M82 M83 M87 M88 M90 SF3 ERJ CRJ
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21558 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10112 times:



Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 3):
All 757 are "heavy" in terms of their wake turbulence.

But they don't get the "heavy" addition to their callsign unless they are actualy capable of weighing more than 255,000lbs.

Which some 752s are, and it's not out of the question that with the winglet modifications, the MTOW could be bumped up a bit.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2116 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10086 times:

In the early part of this decade, the question of whether or not 752's were 'heavy' was nearly as much a recurring and controversial subject as 'Airbus vs. Boeing', and 'When will NW retire their DC-9's?' Perhaps, like those two, it still isn't completely resolved.  Wink

My recollection was that the actual dividing line between heavy and not heavy was that anything heavier than a 752 was, but not the 752 itself. But as suggested by Adipasqu, the issue of strong wake turbulence on the plane complicated things a bit further. Maybe different airlines/authorities see this differently?

In any case, I'm not sure I see what winglets would have to do with anything, as they shouldn't actually affect MTOW, correct?

JL



Next flight.... who knows.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10053 times:



Quoting United_Fan (Thread starter):
i thought it was only the -300's that were heavy.



Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 3):
All 757 are "heavy" in terms of their wake turbulence.

For separation purposes only. ATC and other pilots know this so there's no need to add heavy to your callsign if your a/c's designated MTOW is not 255,001 lbs or more. Again, the flying pilot will know this.

Just to add, I didn't know AA had any in the heavy weight class.

An interesting thread about the subject below.

757-200 Mtow (by SeaBosDca Jan 10 2009 in Tech Ops)



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineMCOatc From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9816 times:

Some members may remember a thread I began on the US birds of the same nature not too long ago. I imagine a certain AA driver who initially denied the existence of this issue may ironically find himself "heavy" in the near future.

US Airways Heavy 752s (by MCOatc Mar 29 2009 in Civil Aviation)

We received a bulletin several weeks ago advising us that AA now has several birds that qualify as heavies and that we need to verify with each crew the proper weight class. I imagine it's only the sub-fleet of transatlantic ships AA has, but someone more knowledgable than I can give you the answer. The US birds are only over the threshold by about 500 pounds, probably similar for these as well.

You were not hearing things. Obviously it's not the winglets alone, as all of AA's 752 fleet is wingletted.


User currently offlineNW747-400 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9806 times:

United States ATC does not use "heavy" separation minima for 757's. They use 757 separation minima for 757's. Yes, they have their own weight class per US ATC.

Per FAA 7110.65, 5-5-4-f

Wake Turbulence Application - Terminal

Small behind large - 4 miles
Small behind 757 - 5 miles
Small behind heavy - 6 miles

As a side note, this only applies to B752. B753 is classified as a heavy jet.


User currently offlineMCOatc From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9690 times:



Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 8):
United States ATC does not use "heavy" separation minima for 757's.

 no  I assure you we do.

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 8):
As a side note, this only applies to B752. B753 is classified as a heavy jet.

As are certain -200 models. In which case we use heavy spacing in lieu of standard 757 spacing.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9634 times:



Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 3):
All 757 are "heavy" in terms of their wake turbulence.

They are not. Do we have to go through this all over again?

All B757's have increased separation standards applied to them by ATC in the U.S., but that in no way means they are getting the "Heavy" separation standards applied. See below:

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 8):
Per FAA 7110.65, 5-5-4-f

Wake Turbulence Application - Terminal

Small behind large - 4 miles
Small behind 757 - 5 miles
Small behind heavy - 6 miles

As a side note, this only applies to B752. B753 is classified as a heavy jet.

If they pilot calls themselves "Heavy", as an ATC'er I am going to question them if it is a B752 if the data block doesn't indicate "H". If they verify in fact they are classified as "Heavy" I'll change the flight plan to show "Heavy", if not I will ask them not to use the "Heavy" in the call sign.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9550 times:



Quoting United_Fan (Thread starter):
I was just listening to jfk tower , and that's what an AA pilot told the tower. News to me , i thought it was only the -300's that were heavy.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL172

Didn't know a 752 could fly that route. I never heard a 752 rrefered to as heavy either. Maybe the pilot just made a slip up. Btw how do you listen to the tower?



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 9381 times:



Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 3):
All 757 are "heavy" in terms of their wake turbulence.

Thats true.All B752 are rated heavy because of the vortices created aft requiring extra spacing for aircraft trailing them.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9226 times:



Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 3):
All 757 are "heavy" in terms of their wake turbulence.

 checkmark 

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
Thats true.All B752 are rated heavy because of the vortices created aft requiring extra spacing for aircraft trailing them.

 checkmark 

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 10):
If they pilot calls themselves "Heavy", as an ATC'er I am going to question them if it is a B752 if the data block doesn't indicate "H". If they verify in fact they are classified as "Heavy" I'll change the flight plan to show "Heavy", if not I will ask them not to use the "Heavy" in the call sign.

So are you saying, if you had a GA light aircraft following behind a 752 you would not maintain separation as if the 752 was a 'heavy'?


User currently offlineKlemmi85 From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9136 times:

Actually, the 757 has it's own category in the US. It's called the MH class and the only bird in there is the 757. However, in the end, they use a simple "heavy" after their callsign. The A380 is "only" heavy, too although it's classed in "S" for Super.

User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 9062 times:



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 13):
So are you saying, if you had a GA light aircraft following behind a 752 you would not maintain separation as if the 752 was a 'heavy'?

That is exactly what I am saying. Look at the chart in reply # 8 which NWA747-400 supplied. See that small behind a B757, that is what is applied. The reference to B757 is referring to a B752 that is not "HEAVY".

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
Thats true.All B752 are rated heavy because of the vortices created aft requiring extra spacing for aircraft trailing them.
regds
MEL.

Respectfully MEL, that is not correct within the U.S. There are two different separation requirements for the fleet of B757's. The B752 (non-heavy) has a separation standard that must be met. Then you have the others, either the B752 "Heavy" or the B753 (all are "Heavy") which have the "Heavy" separation standard.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
Didn't know a 752 could fly that route. I never heard a 752 rrefered to as heavy either. Maybe the pilot just made a slip up. Btw how do you listen to the tower?

CO uses their B752's (non-heavy) to fly from EWR to Europe, so seeing AA172 flying a B752 over the Atlantic isn't unusual. And yes, CO has winglets on their entire fleet of B752's.

If you look at the OP link you will see the aircraft was flight planned as H/B752/Q, the "H" prefix is the "Heavy" designator so the crew was correct in using the "Heavy"at the end of the call sign, no slip up.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 9008 times:



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 15):
Quoting EDICHC (Reply 13):
So are you saying, if you had a GA light aircraft following behind a 752 you would not maintain separation as if the 752 was a 'heavy'?

That is exactly what I am saying. Look at the chart in reply # 8 which NWA747-400 supplied. See that small behind a B757, that is what is applied. The reference to B757 is referring to a B752 that is not "HEAVY".

Different separation requirements down here then, not that there are many 752s seen at CHC but when the occasional RNZAF 752 comes down here they are treated as a heavy. I think the US must be the only place they are given a category of their own. When I'm up in my club's PA28 I think I will continue to appreciate that extra mile.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks ago) and read 8910 times:



Quoting EDICHC (Reply 16):
When I'm up in my club's PA28 I think I will continue to appreciate that extra mile.

And when I am up in the air I appreciate the same.

Guess the best way to describe it is to say it is convoluted at best.  Smile



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7483 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8221 times:



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 11):
Quoting United_Fan (Thread starter):
I was just listening to jfk tower , and that's what an AA pilot told the tower. News to me , i thought it was only the -300's that were heavy.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL172

Didn't know a 752 could fly that route. I never heard a 752 rrefered to as heavy either. Maybe the pilot just made a slip up. Btw how do you listen to the tower?

http://www.liveatc.net



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2246 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7981 times:



Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 3):
All 757 are "heavy" in terms of their wake turbulence.

Negative.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 10):
They are not. Do we have to go through this all over again?

All B757's have increased separation standards applied to them by ATC in the U.S., but that in no way means they are getting the "Heavy" separation standards applied. See below:

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 8):
Per FAA 7110.65, 5-5-4-f

Wake Turbulence Application - Terminal

Small behind large - 4 miles
Small behind 757 - 5 miles
Small behind heavy - 6 miles


Yes IAH, we do. Even after you have posted the facts from the publication, the experts are going to argue.

You and I have seen this how many times in the last three years?

This thread repeats in 4 months.  airplane  :::::::::::::: ::: :: : : --------Wake Turbulence



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6802 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 19):

What is a "large" ? I thought there were three categories, heavy, super (A380) and everyone else (small ?). Obviously I didn't know about the 752 having its own category, but I hadn't heard of a large either.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineRyDawg82 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 859 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6721 times:

Again to go back to the original poster..

AA is re-configuring a larger number of their B757-200's, part of this does push their weight slightly beyond the 255,000 pound limit. Currently there are about 15-20 of these Heavy AA B752's flying around. I believe the number will end up between 35-45. The pilots have to advise ATC prior to takeoff of the change, the type is amended to a Heavy B757 and their are called as such. This is due to ICAO not *currently* recognizing a Heavy B757-200 for flight planning purposes.


Hope this clears things up...

RP



You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
User currently offlineKlemmi85 From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6517 times:

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 20):
What is a "large" ? I thought there were three categories, heavy, super (A380) and everyone else (small ?). Obviously I didn't know about the 752 having its own category, but I hadn't heard of a large either.

There is light, medium, medium-heavy (757) (US only), heavy and super.

[Edited 2009-06-11 12:03:05]

[Edited 2009-06-11 12:04:39]

User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2418 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

In Canada, all B752 aircraft are considered HEAVY when in front of another aircraft, and Medium when following another aircraft. All of this is for wake turbulence separation, of course.

Therefore,

A B752 followed by a medium = 5 nm
A B752 following a Heavy = 5 nm
A B752 followed by a light aircraft = 6 nm
A B752 followed by another heavy = 4 nm

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2009-06-11 12:34:38]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3939 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5611 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

there are pilots that are flying our 752's that reference heavy on their call sign..........some do some dont


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
25 SPREE34 : Everything you'd ever want to know, and more. origin.www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/at_orders/media/ATC.pdf :::::::::::::::
26 NW747-400 : MCO may provide additional separation behind a 752; however, this practice is not MINIMUM separation. Perhaps a practice used by your facility for ad
27 SeaBosDca : The "heavy" border, as mentioned earlier, is 255,000 lbs. The maximum possible MTOW for a 752 is 255,500 lbs. You can already see how the confusion is
28 Mir : Actually, most 752s are not considered heavy, and thus do not use a "heavy" after the callsign. 752s are in the large category, but have their own se
29 Ikramerica : And considering that depending on the route and time left in the flight, the 240k may be heavier than the "heavy" 255k in a traffic pattern, the dist
30 Pictues : Well we have the definite answer to that one don't we aka never, but a new question comes from that "When will Delta retire the DC 9's?" lol
31 Post contains links Klemmi85 : There's a difference between ICAO and FAA in terms of aircraft description. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_turbulence#Wake_vortex_separ
32 Barney Captain : Guys, please re-read this for clarification - all 752's are not created equal. Some have MTOW under 255k lbs (non-heavy), some are over 255k lbs (heav
33 Mir : This isn't true. There is no medium-heavy class in the US. The 757 is a large, and it has some wake turbulence requirements above and beyond a large
34 IAHFLYR : I can't remember the last time I heard a CO B752 driver mess that one up but I'm sure it happens from time to time. Particularly when there is no suc
35 Klemmi85 : So i guess, LH has to rewrite their manuals... or perhaps the writer was just being creative
36 Post contains links SPREE34 : One would think so. Especially when the publications are available online. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: caution Wake T
37 IAHFLYR : You really need to get a job again!
38 Klemmi85 : U're really a funny guy... wtf you think I'm getting this from? creating some BS from nothing just because I have nothing better to do? I gave you th
39 MCOatc : LOL, now that's funny.
40 413x3 : I seriously hope you are not a pilot like your profile claims
41 IAHFLYR : The aircraft only has to be certified to more than 255,000 lbs to be classified as "Heavy", the actual take-off weight doesn't have to be more than 2
42 Vald : i knew these winglets were only a fad 757 were flying for years no probs.... but now put a bit extra on the wings & look what happens oooooohhhhhh....
43 SPREE34 : Chillax man. I really don't care how many post you or I have made. The airframe in question is handled differently buy the different authorities. You
44 IAHFLYR : OH MY........winglets, hmmmmmmmm are you serious??????????????????? Winglets have noting to do wtih a B752/B753!
45 Post contains links United_Fan : Well be that as it may,this 752 is using a heavy callsign. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL283
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