CokePopper From United States, joined May 2008, 529 posts, RR: 5 Reply 1, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 26526 times:
Thanks Panamair. Been waiting for this info for awhile now.
This announcement free's up a few 777's. I wonder if they will
replace some routes with the 777 or park a few?
Interesting that CVG is left with only CDG, killing CVG to LGW surprised me tremendously.
ATL to ICN is well served by Korean Air. ATL to PVG could mean the 777 moves to the DTW to PVG route in the fall, DTW is better positioned as for such a flight as the 777 takes 15 hours and 50 minutes to get there from ATL.
FlyPNS1 From United States, joined Nov 1999, 3903 posts, RR: 27 Reply 8, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 26380 times:
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 3): Could they lose their PVG authority if it remains suspended for too long? I am certain DL already evaluated that, but I am just curious.
Only if someone challenges DL for the authority and given current conditions I doubt anyone will.
LHCVG From United States, joined May 2009, 243 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 26350 times:
Why are they cutting CVG-FRA if it supposedly has such good yields? I have seen several mentions on here about how DL does rather well on CVG-FRA (and I believe CVG-CDG as well), so why are they cutting that would seem to be moneymakers? I will freely admit that I've considered it a "gift" for a while now that DL has maintained transatlantic service beyond CDG out of CVG, so I'm not just bitching about losing service.
Jetlanta From United States, joined Jul 2001, 1831 posts, RR: 20 Reply 11, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 26275 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8): Only if someone challenges DL for the authority and given current conditions I doubt anyone will.
I think you are surely right here. We are actually returning to a time where carriers hold significant "dormant" authorities.
I think the most interesting thing here is that these are pretty major cuts in terms of capacity, but the network connectivity isn't diminished much. The advantage of having such a vast network of hubs. ATL-PVG for example was clearly not needed from a network connectivity perspective, once DTW-PVG was added. At the end of the day, the footprint is still big.
It's also interesting that EDI is the only announced international station closure. This indicates that they intend to maintain the footprint, though I'm sure we'll see some heavy capacity reductions in terms of frequency and aircraft size.
It will be interesting to follow what the other carriers do. This is clearly the tip of the iceberg.
Jetlanta From United States, joined Jul 2001, 1831 posts, RR: 20 Reply 13, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 26201 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10): Why are they cutting CVG-FRA if it supposedly has such good yields? I have seen several mentions on here about how DL does rather well on CVG-FRA (and I believe CVG-CDG as well), so why are they cutting that would seem to be moneymakers? I will freely admit that I've considered it a "gift" for a while now that DL has maintained transatlantic service beyond CDG out of CVG, so I'm not just bitching about losing service.
Because times change and Delta has changed. CVG-CDG has long been the cash cow. The role of CVG-FRA has diminished over the years as:
A) SkyTeam connectivity has become more important
B) CVG has shrunk
C) JFK has grown
D) DTW is in play
Keep in mind that a lot of the CVG-FRA traffic is actually connecting beyond FRA on an interline basis. Canceling it forces that traffic over SkyTeam hubs at CDG, AMS, JFK, DTW and ATL.
Panamair From United States, joined Oct 2001, 3617 posts, RR: 28 Reply 14, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 26174 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 11): I'm sure we'll see some heavy capacity reductions in terms of frequency and aircraft size.
Agreed and they will likely come sooner this year (i.e., starting in September) than in previous years (usually not till November). There will probably also be some suspensions for a few weeks to some destinations during the deep winter (end of January till mid-February for example)
Avconsultant From United States, joined Feb 2006, 1216 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 25949 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10): Why are they cutting CVG-FRA if it supposedly has such good yields? I have seen several mentions on here about how DL does rather well on CVG-FRA (and I believe CVG-CDG as well), so why are they cutting that would seem to be moneymakers? I will freely admit that I've considered it a "gift" for a while now that DL has maintained transatlantic service beyond CDG out of CVG, so I'm not just bitching about losing service.
There were previous threads, from last Fall, where DL stated they were committed to CVG through the Summer of '09 and would have a better idea of CVG future as the merger progresses. As you know, there is a lot of speculation CVG would be scaled back to a focus city given the proximity of DTW. We know MSP is going no where with the agreement between DL & the state of Minnesota.
IMO, CVG might buy time based on DTW economic condition; however, CVG & DTW sit too close together to be efficient. In the 90's US was competing with itself with overlapping hubs. DTW and CVG would easily fall into this category.
AV8AJET From United States, joined Sep 2003, 971 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 25880 times:
Very sad about JFK-EDI...I have flown that route along with ATL-EDI and wished it had stayed in ATL. I guess this means little hope for a DL into GLA? Shame sorry Scotland, I enjoyed the flight while we had it.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 26137 posts, RR: 77 Reply 22, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 25881 times:
Obviously Delta needs to do what they need to do, and there is nothing wrong with these cuts in this economy. Its just funny that four of the routes being suspended - ATL-PVG/ICN and CVG-FRA/LGW - are four routes that many used to defend to death.
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 15): This will be interesting to see what CO and AA do specifically.
AA already released their European winter schedule. A few seasonal frequency reductions and capacity cuts (smaller planes), but no current plans to suspend any routes. That can change, of course.
MaverickM11 From United States, joined Apr 2000, 11964 posts, RR: 51 Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 25772 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20): I was not expecting this route to go...I am sure KE will be happy.
The route is a big one but not that big to support a daily KE 744 and additional capacity. Plus, the KE hub competes with the NRT hub, so even before the additional ATLNRT capacity you don't drive much incremental flow traffic but rather shif it between hubs.
Jetlanta From United States, joined Jul 2001, 1831 posts, RR: 20 Reply 24, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 25704 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22): ATL-PVG/ICN and CVG-FRA/LGW - are four routes that many used to defend to death.
Frankly, all of these are merger-related to a significant degree.
Things changed VERY quickly with Asia due to the economy and the H1N1 Flu. ATL-PVG never made as much sense once DTW-PVG was operating anyway. No one at DL would have argued otherwise. I certainly wouldn't have either.
ATL-ICN was performing well..then the economy and flu hit it as well. But most importantly, ATL-ICN was added to improve connectivity to Asia. After the merger, it makes far more sense for Delta to keep that traffic on its own metal via NRT. In a sense, it could have still been a profitable route, but a strategic negative for the carrier. As every pax sent over ICN is a potential pax that could have flown on DL equipment beyond NRT.
LAXdude1023 From United States, joined Sep 2006, 4453 posts, RR: 22 Reply 25, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 25677 times:
Im not surprised at all. I was just saying in another thread that I thought CVG-FRA would be affected somehow. CVG-LGW does surprise me a bit, but I bet that one will come back during the summer.
ATL-PVG doesnt surprise me one bit. Its been awful from the beginning. Plus DTW is better suited for Asia traffic.
ATL-ICN doesnt surprise me either since there seems to be an emphasis more on NRT now, but we werent told that is the "shineing star of the Pacific network"?
Also I dont know if this has been brought up, but ATL-NRT will be operating daily with a 744 instead of 11x weekly.
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 15): This will be interesting to see what CO and AA do specifically.
AA already did. Just a few frequency cuts. No route cuts.
Next flights: DFW-SJU-BGI-MIA-DFW on AA
26 Alitalia744: No, swine didn't help at all. Mex beach traffic will be affected in seasonal suspensions harder this year than before. Bingo - writing was on the wal
27 Cba: I think that we may see a lot of Asia service shifted to DTW in the future, while ATL remains the domestic super hub, and serves Europe and LatAm. DT
28 MaverickM11: I'm surprised one of the BOM trips didn't get cut, either ATLBOM or AMSBOM. US allegedly just dropped MXP, BRU, and ZRH
29 LAXdude1023: Definatley not. All the airline get their fare sare of it. Will this mean that DTW-PVG will go daily now that ATL-PVG is kaput?
31 Surfdog75: The domestic economy will most likely recover well before the rest of the world economy. Why not reallocate some assets to the domestic market? Down g
32 FlyPNS1: There was an article not too long about how DL's management saw DTW. They were very excited about DTW and viewed it as having the potential to become
33 LipeGIG: Agree with you, seems that the CVG-CDG connecting the main SkyTeam hub in Europe and allowing more and easy connections, would even demand a larger p
34 CO58: Oh please! Go read a few threads that do not have "DL" in the title and you will see almost every airline gets its fair share of bashing on these boa
35 AABB777: More information on Delta cuts... Delta is requesting the following relief: Dormancy waiver of seven (7) U.S.-China frequencies, Atlanta-Shanghai, fro
36 Incitatus: Is LGW left with a single DL flight ATL-LGW, or is DL about to pack up and move everything to Heathrow?
37 Tu154m: Recap: Market changes · ATL-BOM service ends 10/24/09 o Last op. 24OCT EB, 23OCT WB o JFK-BOM starts 25OCT EB, 26OCT WB · ATL-ICN service ends 8/30/
38 DLPMMM: I would say the opposite is true. I expect the rest of the world's economies to do better than the USA economy over the next few years.
39 MAH4546: Also, JFK-EZE won't resume this winter. So CPT is gone all together? I though it would be seasonal? This also ends ATL-DKR.
40 MogandoCI: If I were DL I would attempt to build up LAX and SEA as the Asian gateways (since UA's SFO fortress is nearly impossible to penetrate). NW chose DTW a
42 MaverickM11: Yeah that and JFKEZE aren't likely coming back.
43 LipeGIG: Wow... one year waiver ?! That's a surprise, i was thinking that it was a good performer And also SVO has been downgraded from the previous expected
44 CokePopper: On JFK-EZE we were leaving customers behind on several days....
45 Panamair: Unfortunately that was due to a whole bunch of low introductory fares...
46 LAXdude1023: Couple of questions: 1) Is ATL-BOM shifting back to JFK? 2) Can we confirm that ATL-PVG/ICN and CVG-FRA/LGW are gone for good and not just seasonal?
47 Jetlanta: They are "suspended". Its not seasonal. I'd not be surprised to see ATL-PVG back some day. CVG-LGW would be a reasonable summer seasonal. I suspect t
48 DLPMMM: Yup, that's the word. Apparently the AI pullout on the non-stop make it look good again. • Atlanta-Seoul: indefinite suspension after Aug. 30 • A
49 Surfdog75: Possibly, but recent recessions have all began in the US and spead to the world, like this one, and the recovery began when the US recovery was well
50 MaverickM11: It's like Obama "saving or creating" jobs. It means they're gone. At least until somebody decides down the road to try them again.
51 MAH4546: AA handled them easily on JFK-EZE by throwing on additional (albeit I think it was unneeded in terms of the market size) capacity. In airline speak,
52 AABB777: ....well according to DL's temporary dormancy request, this is atually suspended until September 1, 2010...
53 MaverickM11: It is the airline industry so anything can happen in a year, but I don't see DL bringing back a bunch of terrible routes in the worst month of the ye
54 DLPMMM: Not the way it used to. Look to China, Europe, and South America to lead the way out of this one. The USA screwed up bad over the last 20 years, and
55 MAH4546: Dormancy requests for more than one year are only granted in extraordinary circumstances. Absent a dramatic shift in travel that sees the need to re-
56 Panamair: Getting OT here but if the US tries to "consume" and spend its way out of this crisis, like we did with others, we'll be back in another crisis in no
57 Mayor: Yeah, it makes you wonder how DL was successful all those years, doesn't it??
58 Surfdog75: We'll see I guess. The US consumer is still the power behind the world economy in my opinion. The problem is that as you reduce domestic capacity it
59 MAH4546: Not really. The only trans-Pacific route that Delta has operaetd from ATL for more than two years is Tokyo.
60 MSPNWA: Cuts, cuts, cuts. It's getting old to hear. At least they're coming almost entirely from the DL side and not the NW side.
61 Mayor: Perhaps you didn't notice the sarcasm in my statement, in reference to the poster implying that DL hasn't been successful out of ATL, or anywhere, fo
62 DLPMMM: One needs to look closer at the USA market and the fragmentation of that market since deregulation. Since deregulation, the largest change to the USA
63 727forever: True enough. It certainly looks more and more everyday like a wolf in Delta's coloring. I knew we were headed for trouble when Anderson was brought o
64 RafflesKing: So does this just leave CVG with CDG non-stop year round? Are AMS and FCO even seasonable destinations any longer? I'm not seeing the ATL-MEX cuts yet
65 Surfdog75: DL's cost structure aligns favoably with the LCCs since BK. I believe they need to leverage the benefits of a world-wide route structure and start ta
66 AVLAirlineFreq: Any word on domestic cuts and the Mexico cuts? When will they be revealed?
67 727forever: Mega Ditto. With DL's CASM the time is right but if it isn't capable of high RSMs they seem to be running for it. 727forever
68 MogandoCI: Perhaps the cutting of hubs plus a more coherent hub strategy. The combined giant has NRT, SLC, MSP, DTW, MEM, CVG, ATL, JFK, AMS, and CDG (not the m
69 DLPMMM: Source? They are called Low Cost Carriers for a reason. It is alot more expensive to maintain multiple aircraft types, multiple employee type certifi
70 FlyPNS1: DL's costs are certainly improved, but trying to duke it out for domestic marketshare with the LCC's is a losing proposition. Adjusting for stage len
71 BigGSFO: AA made a similar announcement today, without specific route impacts. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Americ...ines-to-cut-apf-15502889.html?.v=2 Intern
72 Hywel: Sorry to see LGW-CVG going, but I was on it 4 weeks ago and it was less than half full
73 MAH4546: That's actually total capacity cut 7.5%.
74 Seemyseems: This is a surprise, is it to do with load factors?
77 Transpac787: I'm quite sure he understood it and was replying directly to you in saying that DL has, in fact, been quite unsuccessful in their ATL-Asia attempts.
78 LipeGIG: Very true. But even BRICs are getting in trouble. I see only a few bigger markets with ability to recover faster: China, Brazil and India. Agree, but
79 USAirALB: So..when DL says they're suspending CVG-LGW/FRA, they're bringing it back , right? They didn't say they're discontinuing it.
80 Ojas: There are rumors of DL going back from ATL - BOM to JFK - BOM.
81 Mayor: Ah, but the original statement I was replying to also mentioned they were unsuccessful to Europe out of ATL. I just made a blanket, sarcastic stateme
82 IrishAyes: That's not gonna happen. If DL couldn't make a LatAm hub work from LAX, what makes them think that a transpacific one would? I highly doubt DL is goi
83 JBirdAV8r: So was I. I flew on Fridays--we were more than 3/4ths full but I was still surprised at the number of empty seats I saw. I hate that routing's going-
84 Jetlanta: Very true. And more carriers to come. It should be pointed out again that Delta is probably the strongest network carrier. These cuts are intended to
85 LAXdude1023: Amen brother! I could definately see CVG-LGW as a 757 flight during the summer. Is DL also moving ATL-BOM to JFK? I have absolutely no doubt, though
86 Surfdog75: I'll agree with that but DL still maintains a RASM advantage. Overall CASM could be cut with larger aircraft flying routes. RASM advantage could be m
87 Tu154m: AGAIN, as the response in reply 37: Market changes · ATL-BOM service ends 10/24/09 o Last op. 24OCT EB, 23OCT WB o JFK-BOM starts 25OCT EB, 26OCT WB
88 FFlyerWorld: Well, yet again, nowadays - Where Delta leads - Others will follow... http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Americ...ines-to-cut-apf-15503524.html?.v=3 And t
89 LAXdude1023: American already anncounced they were cutting 6.5% of their international capacity. They released the details and no routes were cut, just capacity r
90 Jetlanta: Come on man...they announced the cuts the SAME DAY at the SAME EVENT. AA wasn't following Delta. They were both making the same sound business decisi
91 MAH4546: The 6.5%/7.5% being cut is total capacity, not just international.
92 Panamair: The additional cuts will be made up of 1% domestic and 3.5% international. CO is also slated to announce capacity cuts in July.
93 FFlyerWorld: A buddy of mine with AA just called me and told me that AA plans a cut of something like 1000 plus FA's?? If this is true, AA must have other capacity
94 LAXdude1023: Ive heard the same thing. 1200 was the number I heard. Not sure yet though. I imagine it will pretty much be like that across the board. I heard most
95 FFlyerWorld: I totally agree with you. Cut me a break here... These AA guys love to rile up the Delta guys so it's kinda fun when the shoe goes to the other foot.
96 OA412: How times change. I remember in the mid 90's when DL was flying CVG-FRA twice daily. AT the time it was reportedly DL's most profitable flight. In ter
97 FFlyerworld: This article sums up what I believe will be forthcoming regardless of what the koolaiders at several carriers wish to believe... http://finance.yahoo.
98 SLCUT2777: Getting the route authority was the big issue here, and DL had a much better probablity of getting ATL service to PVG, than from LAX or JFK which are
99 AvConsultant: The fire fights between the Drug Lords and the Federales outside the resorts in Acapulco cannot be good for business much less the Swine Flu. No, I d
100 Centrair: I wonder if we will see any aircraft swapping in the fall. The 777s and 744s could be swapped on routes that need reduction or increase of capacity. M
101 RwSEA: I always thought SEA was their best choice for a west coast gateway given that there's the most connecting traffic, it's in a better location, is a s
102 OA412: That may very well be what happens. As I said above, I believe that DL's best bet is to operate China from either JFK or a West Coast gateway (either
103 FlyPNS1: Maybe, but think of FL for a minute. FL has a business class, will have BOB and WiFi, so DL's advantage isn't that great. The prime reason DL has a h
104 SLCUT2777: With WN more restrained and not doing as well $$$ wise, I think there is room to slash capacity, especially multiple 50 seat CRJ city pairs. But DL?N
105 CRJ200FAGuy: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I get sick and tired of hearing about how everyone is soooo mean to Delta. Personally, after what they've done to me
106 LH469: The route cuts announced today don't appear to add-up to -15% in International DL/NW capacity. Any idea as to which additional routes to be cut and ti
107 Skibum9: I swear, DL did not plan this what so ever. It is that new airline the KCAB brought into CVG. Those B1900s that fly to Somerset, KY are scaring DL ou
108 ThegreatRDU: Yep!! let's face it...CVG is so redundant right now.... CVG is not a "moneymaker" anymore it so obsolete now.....maybe back in 96' MEM is too close t
109 Hjulicher: I agree halfway... the markets in JFK and LAX are larger, but they offer fewer connecting possibilities (JFK too far East, and LAX not enough in-flow
110 Centrair: I thought there were some reductions and cuts in the last round at DTW. I know DTW-NGO was reduced. Wasn't a London frequency reduced? I think DTW co
111 MarcoPoloWorld: Interesting how the articles of American sources always somehow get to make US carriers as "the world's largest". In this case Delta. Based on whateve
112 PlanesNTrains: With all due respect, you can blame it on a certain "global traveler" the vast majority of the time. I know for me I have no problem with Delta (it's
113 ReuschAir: Can someone give background and likely direction of the MSP situation and DL because of the state of MN? I'm clueless in this aspect. Thanks, Reusch
114 Aviationwiz: Huh? So their cutting CPT right before the summer 2009/2010 season (South African summer) and starting it back up right after the World Cup? I know a
115 Transpac787: You obviously have no knowledge on the matter, it would seem. The DC9's, as they are long-since paid for, can quite often operates route cheaper than
116 MAH4546: AMS ends August 29th (or 30th, don't remember).
117 PlanesNTrains: I'm guessing that they could choose to restart the route at any time if they wanted to, but are simply picking an arbitrary date in the future as "pl
118 CV880: If DL were to have authority to fly LAX-PVG/PEK, the local traffic should be able to support the route. There is no US Flag Carrier on either route,
119 Panamair: Uh, Delta actually does not base its claim on being the world's largest based on pax boardings. Funny you should mention revenues and passenger-km-fl
120 MAH4546: The date is not arbitrary. DOT does not grant dormancy for more than 12 months out unless it is an extraordinary circumstance. The route ends August
121 PlanesNTrains: Thanks for the clarification - I didn't realize that 12 months was the maximum timeframe. I should have been more clear. What I meant was: I'm guessi
122 MAH4546: Correct, they can. However, in a memo sent out to employees today, it was listed as an indefinite suspension, while other suspended routes (i.e. Atla
123 SurfandSnow: A good point, but remember those more costly Airbus and Boeing aircraft can fly a heck of a lot further than the DC-9s.... An A319 (roughly the same
124 Mayor: Sure you can. There are others on here that are just as adamant about their favorite airline being the best, but they never seem to get abused like D
125 Jfk777: Delta's ace in the hole for service to Asia is DTW, with NW's fabulous terminal. DTW's geographic location is great for the great circle route to Asi
126 Tinpusher007: Nope...you are correct. The E175 has a range approaching 2,000NM and the CR9 about 1,800NM or so. I asked a DC-9 capt how much range they could get o
127 BigGSFO: As did DL from PDX. At the time, it was am impressive transpacific network for the size of the metro area.
128 MaverickM11: Back in March they said they'd reduce Transatlantic and Transpacific by 10-12%, and yesterday they announced additional cuts of up to 20%. The Transa
129 LAXdude1023: While thats true, DTW isnt in need of a reliever airport while ATL could use one. I believe that gives MEM retaining its hub status. That is very tru
130 Jetlanta: ASM/ASK is the industry-accepted standard of size. Delta is the largest in the world using that measure. Market value is a ridiculous metric as it fl
131 MasseyBrown: I know this is the conventional a.net wisdom, but I suspect that, if they indeed are paid for, it's only because nobody will lend any money on them.
132 MaverickM11: Some clarity would be helpful--their presentation says Fall 2009 will be down 10% YOY systemwide with transatlantic down 20%. If that is the case the
133 United1: They are paid for but I believe they are collateral for a loan NW took out just before the merger finalized.
134 MasseyBrown: Which to me means they are not paid for. Last earnings conf. call, I believe Bastian said everything of value was hocked.
135 PlanesNTrains: I'm sure you're correct, Mayor. Nonetheless, in countless Delta threads, one person seemed to bring out the vitriol of many. Certainly to a far great
136 Mayor: Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that they don't want to think he could be correct, in most cases? Otherwise, there are many CO fanboys on her
137 PlanesNTrains: Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you, per se. But I can only speak for myself, and I have no emotion one way or the other about Delta. Yet time after ti
138 WorldTraveler: ATL made the most sense as a gateway to Asia for DL because it can connect Asia to Latin America and because of the huge amount of feed that ATL has
139 LAXdude1023: With DTW now in the picture, ATL no longer makes sense as the Transpac gateway. DL has obviously realized this with the latest cuts (ATL is only left
140 Surfdog75: Cuts seem to be the mantra of this merger regardless of what was said to get the merger approved. Most saw the writing on the wall. No real attempts
141 Avconsultant: LOL, has that service started? Two things, 1) you would not want to waste the A-319 on a short haul given its mission capability. 2) someone will con
142 Cospn: They need to better use the 767-300's we have one flies NRT-GUM sits about 11 Hours and Back GUM-NRT !?!?? flight time each way is about 3:30
143 Bobnwa: You don't suppose that the world economic crisis, or the flu have had anything to do with the cutbacks do you? Are you suggesting that DL has had mor
144 Mayor: Are you crazy? Getting rid of the 9s wouldn't hurt the system as much as getting rid of the 767s. What do you propose to do to replace them on the in
145 CIDFlyer: I posted this on the OAG change thread, but I can't find any non stop flights from CID-ATL and CID-CVG after August on Delta.com. Please tell me those
146 AVLAirlineFreq: How much connecting traffic has there been for DL through ATL for Asia going to Latin America and vice versa? Or did the world economy scuttle much o
147 AirNZ: Actually no, I don't think it's that at all and certainly not to me anyhow......as in another members case I have absolutely no specific feelings for
148 Mayor: Apparently, you didn't take the time to read post #138. I cannot find on it, any what you say above, even though, apparently, in your eyes, he does i
149 BinMonster: Discontinuation of ATL – AVP/CID effective 18Aug Discontinuation of CVG – CID effective 18Aug
150 NWAESC: I hear you, but I think we've had our share too. What about the freighters? What about the Airlink flights that have moved over to DCI carriers? Or f
151 CIDFlyer: I guess the CVG cut is to be expected with as many hits as that hub has been taking. Sad to see it go though as we have had that for 15 years, CVG is
152 Mayor: Well, I'm SURE that DL did that deliberately to inconvenience you and were just waiting for the economy to tank to do it.
153 AirNZ: Actually no Mayor, not at all. I was giving you as what I saw the reason to be in general and not linked to either this, or any specific, thread in p
154 Luckyone: These routes are still being flown are they not? It is arguable that the A330's had/have a nicer product than DL's 767s, but wouldn't you rather have
155 CIDFlyer: well OBVIOUSLY I know they didn't just do that to me but its frustrating none the less, and I know several people who travel this flight for business
156 NWAESC: Yes they are. I was commenting on another poster's assertion that all cuts were from the DL side specifically, when we at NW have had our share of fl
157 Coalways: That what are merger is for to cut whats not needed there probably be more cuts to come. Wonder when SYD is going to be cut, I would have thought it
158 Luckyone: That wasn't my intention, my apologies. Personally I find that argument tiresome and even pretentious. I mean really, most people are more concerned
159 CIDFlyer: you're right. Guess I am not going to drink the Delta kool-aid anymore lol
160 Mayor: Well, maybe you'll get your service back, once the economy improves. At least they haven't closed CID, completely. Just scaling back and when the tim
161 OOer: Has any airline in the U.S. cut as much capacity as Delta?
162 CIDFlyer: I hope your right Mayor, I would think if the situation improves ATL will be back for sure, I always thought it did well. For now guess I will just h
163 LAXdude1023: I believe that the economic crisis may have played a part in DL's cutbacks to Asia, however I think the flu is an excuse. ATL isnt a huge gateway to
164 OA412: Pre merger, which other hub was DL going to try to build up as an Asia hub. CVG? No, SLC? No, JFK? Perhaps but they were still busy trying to build u
165 Jetlanta: You are wrong. Point of Sale Asia traffic has been DEVASTATED by H1N1.
166 Nwaesc: How so? Or more specifically, by how much are they off?
167 WorldTraveler: And which competitors are adding capacity to ICN/PVG/FRA/LGW....? Because it does not have to be reported to the DOT, it is "off the books". Those wh
168 WorldTraveler: The 763 and 4 is capable of carrying plenty of cargo on the appropriate length routes; AA and DL have easily carried 50-60K of cargo out of S. Americ
169 Nwaesc: Precisely what I was driving at... Shoulda been more clear.
170 PlanesNTrains: Apparently not, since my post was #137. But if you are going to make this a ridiculous all-or-nothing type of argument, then there's nothing more to
171 Mayor: Apparently, you can state that you don't like what I have to say, but I can't. That's ok, because I honestly think that your dealings with this perso
172 PlanesNTrains: I welcome you to say how you feel. But please don't try to twist my motivations to match yours. I am quite capable of calling a spade a spade without
173 OOer: So you're going to try and answer my question with another question? Delta simply shifted capacity from domestic to international, overall capacity i
174 Surfdog75: I guess my frustration comes from the same tired strategies that keep this industry on a rollercoaster. The public wants a good, reliable product at
176 Bobnwa: Per message 175 four carriers have cut more capacity than DL. I applaud the carriers that are cutting capacity, as that appears to be the smart thing
177 BA744PHX: So if im reading this right US Airways is the only one that had a load factor increase and they had the highest load factor? It's odd to say but it l
178 CIDFlyer: I like that idea....I hate that we have become so dependent on RJ's for everything. I take my hometown airport CID for an example. As recent as the b
179 Luckyone: Perhaps when Delta crunched the numbers they found it was better for their bottom line to route those passengers through DTW and MSP based on where t
180 LAXdude1023: I think thats where the synergy of the merger steps in. DL is realizing that they wont have route everything through ATL. Now that they have hubs in
181 Avek00: CO is adding capacity to FRA with the start of IAH-FRA later this year, and has of course managed to move its entire London operation to Heathrow (an
182 Cubsrule: How much less efficient is a fleet of 80 737NGs and 180 32x's than a fleet of 180 737NGs or 180 32x's? The answer is not much... But they don't need
183 LAXdude1023: I would imagine hes talking about cities like: MGM, LCH, BTR, MOB, GPT, PNS, VPS, etc. Those are cities that DFW and ATL serve, but not DTW or MSP. N
184 CIDFlyer: Well for me personally its PNS as I fly there often. Off the top of my head also MOB, GPT, VPS, PFN, TLH, MGM, CSG, VLD, GNV, Augusta , DAB, DHN, PIB
185 Cubsrule: That was exactly my point. All of the largest cities in the southeast are still well-served ex-CID.
186 Luckyone: Honestly there is little sense in flying to Augusta from Atlanta. It's a straight shot across I-20 from the airport. Yeah it's a 3 hour drive. But wh
187 Jetlanta: LAX, my only quibble with what you say here is that Delta isn't just "realizing" this. They knew all along that this would be one of the merger benef
188 Iowaman: I am unsurprised to see CVG, but surprised to see ATL cut as well. I'm also surprised FSD-ATL is sticking around. Without MEM, CID has no service to
189 MarcoPoloWorld: Means absolutely nothing in the context of Atlanta being a world airport, because it simply isn't. It's just hauling huge volumes of domestic cattle
190 EXAAUADL: Europe is in deeper recession than the US right now. South America is a basket case, plus they dont import enough to be an engine of world economic g
191 Centrair: I wonder if DL will move ATL-ICN to DTW-ICN or will KE start ICN-DTW? It is one of the only Skyteam hubs without KE or a flight to KE's hub. How about
193 OA412: An ER should be able to make DTW-HKG. CO flies EWR-HKG with a 772ER which is just over 200 miles longer than DTW-HKG.
194 MAH4546: Naked loadfactor figures tell us nothing. US Airways has seen a large defection of elite flyers due to reduced value in their FF program. Most people
195 AirNZ: But given the reality of the situation, there's really no reason why the majority of passengers should care which one they fly. At the end of the day
196 Mayor: But isn't that what any hub is, operated by any airline, anywhere? You make it sound like it's a Delta exclusive.
197 MaverickM11: ATL-ICN/PVG were not canned because of H1N1--they never fundamentally worked. H1N1 of course didn't help the already bad situation. They are flat to
198 LAXdude1023: Haha, maybe I should have said a.net just realized it. There was always so much talk about how everything was going to be shut down and moved to ATL.
200 United1: Agreed, while traffic took a hit the other major US airline across the Pacific stated that looking forwards booking didn't seem to be affected much b
201 MAH4546: I voluntarily pay a lot more for the same thing since I'm loyal to flying AA and stick to AA. And many others voluntarily pay more for the same thing
202 CIDFlyer: exactly. I know we have always been a strong market for AA and UA, but NW had a pretty good following here too, and I'm somewhat surprised DL doesn't
203 Papatango: If you really believe that I have some ocean front property to sell you in Phoenix!
204 MAH4546: That's okay. Phoenix is a dump. Though if you really don't believe what I said, then I just don't know what to say. It's one of the most basic facts
205 BigGSFO: I do this too. All the time. I will never shop around beyond my two airlines of choice (United and Alaska ). Usually schedule is first, then where I
206 Luckyone: While most of the "traveling public" may not, I think that those who travel frequently pick an airline and stick with them. I know that unless I abso
207 LAXdude1023: According to your profile, you live in Atlanta. If I lived in Atlanta, I would only fly DL too. If I lived in Houston, I would only fly CO and if I l
208 COflyerBOS: I am the same way. I live in Boston but travel to Houston at least 25 times a year. CO offers the only non-stop so I am very loyal. I go out of my way
209 Skibum9: Agreed 100%. I live in Cincinnati, and my loyalty to DL has shrunk proportionately, if not more than the rate of cuts at CVG. Increasingly, I have to
210 Mayor: Not from Delta. That was all rumor and conjecture, mostly here on A.net.
211 Bobnwa: Exactly correct. Delta never said that or intimated that. That was all conjecture on A.net and all of a sudden it becomes a fact out of the mouth of
212 Intl767400: The real problem is you live in CVG. Delta made a huge mistake by trying to put a mainline hub out of a place like CVG. Be glad you had mainline non
213 Mayor: Don't forget that DL originally started CVG as a reliever hub for ATL and it just sort of morphed into a full fledged hub.
214 Iflyatldl: Is it really worth keeping LGW open for just 1 daily flight? There really isn't any Skyteam carrier presence for connecting pax, seasonal or otherwise
215 UnitedTristar: well...the Asia to/from L. Amer routes are not the best strategy. for example, to fly from LIM to NRT it is $6,965 (pulled from Orbitz for random dat
216 Cubsrule: Today, I'm not sure there's enough demand from the United States to Asia or to Latin America to fill the airplanes. It's not like DL can stick a 752
217 Mayor: You complain about having to connect and then you say that's exactly what you'll do to avoid DL. Don't you find it difficult talking out of both side
218 Azjubilee: I've been encouraged to post this news here, on this long, old and irrelevant thread. So... here is goes. Mesaba announced yesterday that due to poor
219 Intl767400: does anyone know when Delta will post the fall/winter schedules?
220 MAH4546: Didn't somebody mention Delta is ending CVG-IAH? Can't seem to find confirmation of that anywhere.
221 FutureUScapt: The thread apparently keeping getting deleted, but yes, DL is ending CVG-BHM/DAY/IAH come the end of August.
222 Drerx7: Yeah - there was another thread devoted solely to that; but to sum it up: CVG-IAH gets axed 2nd IAH-JFK CR9 starts 5th IAH-DTW added with 4 of the 5
223 LambertMan: There is no need to provoke Cincinnati natives to come out of the woodwork and start the debate of whether or not the city can support a hub. We've b
224 CIDFlyer: it was mentioned in the now deleted DL dropping CVG-IAH thread that some sort of anouncement was going to be made about the CVG hub either today or to
225 AvConsultant: Where in the hell did that thread go? I find it, extremely, ironic how legitimate threads will disappear on here. This occurs more and more.
226 LipeGIG: That's always my point when users here try to show point that traffic from places like Sao Paulo or Lima to Tokyo could be interesting for an airline
227 Mayor: It wasn't a mistake at the time, nor for many years after. It only seems like a mistake, now, with all the cutbacks happening, there. It was a hub th
228 777STL: Yeah, well at least we don't have hurricanes and humidity. :P Indeed, that's one of the most basic tenets of business, period.
229 Luckyone: No, but you do have duststorms that can blow out your windows Also! The air is so dry to us eastcoasters that your nose can dry up so much it feels l
230 CIDFlyer: couldnt agree with you more on that. The thread on DL pulling out of DBQ seems to have been deleted too. Guess they were not topics that deserved the
231 AvConsultant: Some thing does not look correct CVG appears to be heavy on the hit list. As a quick recap what are the flight cut by hub: ATL: ICN PVG BOM CPT DKR PI
232 MAH4546: We can add the following fall cuts: ATL-AVP ATL-LNK SLC-CLE SLC-LNK
233 Steeler83: AMS, FCO, LGW, and FRA are all on the chopping block? Wow! There goes tatl service from CVG... Altho, isn't there CDG service? I guess that's all the
234 AvConsultant: What was DL peak in CVG as to cities served and mainline? I think it would make us sick to see the comparison to today. Yes, the the CDG TATL is all t
235 FlyPNS1: I believe CVG-DAY and CVG-BHM are gone too. I guess it depends on what you call peak. The peak in terms of mainline operations occurred in 1996 with
236 USPIT10L: N702ML has a site, departedflights.com, that has listings of daily departures and totals for about fifteen current and defunct hubs, including TW @ S
238 MaverickM11: JFKZRH was also pulled out of OCT09; was it originally supposed to be seasonal?
239 Panamair: Yes supposed to run through Oct 23 or 24. When is it ending now?
240 CIDFlyer: Does anyone know when DL's fall/winter schedule will be loaded in the system? Does anyone expect to see any additional CVG cuts?
241 DeltaHolland: CVG-AMS is being cut also? It didnt say that in the press release.
242 OA412: JFK-ZRH is still showing bookable through 10/23.
243 MAH4546: The press release was a "best of" highlights. Cincinnati-Amsterdam is discontinued permanently on August 15th.
244 AvConsultant: I remember last Fall, DL stated they were committed to CVG thru Summer '09. How much was DFW cut back before DL announced it was de-hubbed? Airlines
245 Skibum9: The Enquirer just came out with an article on the cuts: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...5/NEWS/Delta+cuts+more+CVG+flights In the article, the
246 USPIT10L: US Airways said similar things in 2003-04 during the PIT pulldowns. Most people here assumed the hub would stay. Frankly, as nice as it has been conn
248 USPIT10L: SLC's status has more to do with location than anything else. Hopefully in the future, DL will continue to add international markets and frequencies
249 Mayor: Well, the location doesn't mean much either as the City of Denver, on different occasions, has tried to get DL to move the hub to DEN. There has also
250 Skibum9: Except for MEM, which I believe has a short shelf-life as well. I think eventually DL will settle on ATL, JFK, DTW, MSP and SLC as their domestic hub
251 AvConsultant: Look at it this way, should things not workout with MKE for FL and they attempt to setup shop in CVG. It will be met with extreme prejudice from DL a
252 USPIT10L: MEM should last a few more years, though, or at least until they get additional runway capacity at ATL. That's the main reason DL is keeping MEM goin
253 DeltaL1011man: huh? 2005 flights perday 4 runways- 1200 2009 flights perday 5 runways- 1000 DL should be able to add MEM into ATL easy. IMO CVG will die first.....t
254 Joeljack: Those are all reductions...where are the planes going? I'm assuming the smaller planes are coming from the routes being cut from CVG among other plac
255 MAH4546: Reduced utilization rates. Although there is one new Europe route being planned for November. Hopefully it launches, but it hasn't been announced yet
256 Panamair: Also, PHL-CDG is switching over from AF to a DL 752 starting October 5.
257 DeltaL1011man: Forgot to add that one. Panamair is JFK-BOM still 5x weekly? and id DTW-PVG going more than 4(?)x weekly? PVG has lost ALOT of seats on Delta. IIRC N
258 Panamair: Nope...apparently not starting... Let's see for how long.... The BRICs stink for the moment....[Edited 2009-07-02 16:26:48]
259 MSPNWA: I wonder where the A333s and 744s are going. Hope the latter isn't the desert, but it wouldn't surprise me. And could ATL-HNL be seasonal cut? That's
260 MAH4546: So now Delta is ending all service to India? Wow.
261 Panamair: AMS-BOM is still there.....it'll be like the old days of JFK-FRA-BOM or JFK-CDG-BOM again....at least for now...[Edited 2009-07-02 16:28:10]
264 Coalways: Wow JFK-BOM not starting DL is really cutting ALOT of its longhual flights from the US to other points on the Globe. CO will be the only US Carrier l
265 DeltaL1011man: from a 744 to a 333 yes. In years past HNL(and LGW and FCO) have been 1x 767 during the winter and 2x 767 in the summer. So HNL will have more seats
266 MAH4546: HNL has been a 2x 767 market. Peak for HNL from the East Coast is winter, not summer. Capacity is down, not just from Delta/ATL, but from everybody.
267 CIDFlyer: **sigh** I am hoping it will be back someday, I know the airport commission is working with Delta to reinstate the flight. It did have decent yields
268 CIDFlyer: possibly, but there are a couple things MEM does have going for it, the FedEx hub which keeps operating costs there pretty low, and also its more cen
269 NWAESC: In addition, I'd also just like to add that it's a great way to get people from the upper tier to southern destinations in the winter, IRROPS or not.
270 Behramjee: nopes it is confirmed SUSPENDED...and has been updated on Sabre as well. 28OCT WED JFK/EDT BOM/‡9.5 1DL 26 J0 D0 S0 I0 Y0 B0 M0 JFKBOM 2155 2220‡
271 LAXdude1023: If DL cut it, it probably didnt have decent yields, or didnt contribute enough to the hub. DL doesnt like cutting service at ATL. If they do, it mean
272 MaverickM11: How many free 777s do they have now versus planned?
273 CIDFlyer: not sure but the article in the Cedar Rapids Gazette had our airport commissioner state the flight had good yields. I know I can attest to the flight
274 OA412: Aiport commissioner's have a tendency to talk about routes to make their particular airport look good. Bottom line, if the flight really did have goo
275 CIDFlyer: Maybe, maybe not. I'd be interested to see where the flight stood on the revenue list. I know someone on here used to post information on that. Fligh
276 DeltaL1011man: It was 1x daily 764 last year. 2x during the summer. They said the reason it went 744 was to not use two 767s. They should have 2 extra 77Ls and 3-4
277 CIDFlyer: When will DL place its code on all existing NW flights? For example, if I go to Delta's timetable, it will not show me CID-MSP flights.....when will t
278 Mayor: When the Single Operating Certificate is okayed and in effect. They are hoping by the end of the year.
279 CIDFlyer: just noticed some more changes, at MLI (Moline, IL), MEM goes down to 1x daily (from 2), and this was surprising, MSP gets cut to only 2x daily. ATL s
280 CIDFlyer: one other thing, is HTS the only CVG exclusive route now? With the cutting going on there, could we expect to see this flight shifted to either DTW or
281 DeltAirlines: I just keyed in CID-MSP on delta.com's timetable and it pulled up the 4 NW flights (with NW flight numbers on each, not DL codeshare numbers). That b
282 CIDFlyer: I do see that for booking the flights they do come up, but weird that the printable pdf timetable doesn't show that...is that because the flights are
283 By738: ED-JFK Oh yes, sometimes as low as about 60% in Winter and agreesive competition from the long established CO on NYC route. DL just havent done their
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