CokePopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 968 posts, RR: 10 Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27811 times:
Thanks Panamair. Been waiting for this info for awhile now.
This announcement free's up a few 777's. I wonder if they will
replace some routes with the 777 or park a few?
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27799 times:
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2581 posts, RR: 7 Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27776 times:
Could they lose their PVG authority if it remains suspended for too long? I am certain DL already evaluated that, but I am just curious.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27692 times:
CokePopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 968 posts, RR: 10 Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27692 times:
Jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 6312 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27711 times:
Interesting that CVG is left with only CDG, killing CVG to LGW surprised me tremendously.
ATL to ICN is well served by Korean Air. ATL to PVG could mean the 777 moves to the DTW to PVG route in the fall, DTW is better positioned as for such a flight as the 777 takes 15 hours and 50 minutes to get there from ATL.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 5697 posts, RR: 28 Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27665 times:
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 3): Could they lose their PVG authority if it remains suspended for too long? I am certain DL already evaluated that, but I am just curious.
Only if someone challenges DL for the authority and given current conditions I doubt anyone will.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27664 times:
Quoting FFlyer (Reply 4): Aren't there some 744's that might be too big for certain routes in this economy?
LHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 772 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27635 times:
Why are they cutting CVG-FRA if it supposedly has such good yields? I have seen several mentions on here about how DL does rather well on CVG-FRA (and I believe CVG-CDG as well), so why are they cutting that would seem to be moneymakers? I will freely admit that I've considered it a "gift" for a while now that DL has maintained transatlantic service beyond CDG out of CVG, so I'm not just bitching about losing service.
Jetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2759 posts, RR: 29 Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27560 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8): Only if someone challenges DL for the authority and given current conditions I doubt anyone will.
I think you are surely right here. We are actually returning to a time where carriers hold significant "dormant" authorities.
I think the most interesting thing here is that these are pretty major cuts in terms of capacity, but the network connectivity isn't diminished much. The advantage of having such a vast network of hubs. ATL-PVG for example was clearly not needed from a network connectivity perspective, once DTW-PVG was added. At the end of the day, the footprint is still big.
It's also interesting that EDI is the only announced international station closure. This indicates that they intend to maintain the footprint, though I'm sure we'll see some heavy capacity reductions in terms of frequency and aircraft size.
It will be interesting to follow what the other carriers do. This is clearly the tip of the iceberg.
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2581 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27531 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 5): Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 3):
Also, how is SYD doing?
Jetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2759 posts, RR: 29 Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27486 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10): Why are they cutting CVG-FRA if it supposedly has such good yields? I have seen several mentions on here about how DL does rather well on CVG-FRA (and I believe CVG-CDG as well), so why are they cutting that would seem to be moneymakers? I will freely admit that I've considered it a "gift" for a while now that DL has maintained transatlantic service beyond CDG out of CVG, so I'm not just bitching about losing service.
Because times change and Delta has changed. CVG-CDG has long been the cash cow. The role of CVG-FRA has diminished over the years as:
A) SkyTeam connectivity has become more important
B) CVG has shrunk
C) JFK has grown
D) DTW is in play
Keep in mind that a lot of the CVG-FRA traffic is actually connecting beyond FRA on an interline basis. Canceling it forces that traffic over SkyTeam hubs at CDG, AMS, JFK, DTW and ATL.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27459 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 11): I'm sure we'll see some heavy capacity reductions in terms of frequency and aircraft size.
Agreed and they will likely come sooner this year (i.e., starting in September) than in previous years (usually not till November). There will probably also be some suspensions for a few weeks to some destinations during the deep winter (end of January till mid-February for example)
FFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27414 times:
Well at least the analysts are happy about this...
Alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4594 posts, RR: 49 Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27333 times:
For those interested, today's analyst presentation (Bank of America/Merrill Lynch Global Transportation Conference) is already posted at Delta.com.
Interesting read and while guidance has been lowered, operating margin is still projected to be in the green (0-2%).
AVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 611 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27307 times:
When will the additional details be available to the public?
Avconsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27234 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10): Why are they cutting CVG-FRA if it supposedly has such good yields? I have seen several mentions on here about how DL does rather well on CVG-FRA (and I believe CVG-CDG as well), so why are they cutting that would seem to be moneymakers? I will freely admit that I've considered it a "gift" for a while now that DL has maintained transatlantic service beyond CDG out of CVG, so I'm not just bitching about losing service.
There were previous threads, from last Fall, where DL stated they were committed to CVG through the Summer of '09 and would have a better idea of CVG future as the merger progresses. As you know, there is a lot of speculation CVG would be scaled back to a focus city given the proximity of DTW. We know MSP is going no where with the agreement between DL & the state of Minnesota.
IMO, CVG might buy time based on DTW economic condition; however, CVG & DTW sit too close together to be efficient. In the 90's US was competing with itself with overlapping hubs. DTW and CVG would easily fall into this category.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 27186 times:
Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 16): while guidance has been lowered, operating margin is still projected to be in the green (0-2%).
The "swine flu" hasn't helped and has had a significant impact on transpacific travel (as evidenced by the large drop in LF in May).
AV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1229 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27165 times:
Very sad about JFK-EDI...I have flown that route along with ATL-EDI and wished it had stayed in ATL. I guess this means little hope for a DL into GLA? Shame sorry Scotland, I enjoyed the flight while we had it.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30434 posts, RR: 77 Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27166 times:
Obviously Delta needs to do what they need to do, and there is nothing wrong with these cuts in this economy. Its just funny that four of the routes being suspended - ATL-PVG/ICN and CVG-FRA/LGW - are four routes that many used to defend to death.
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 15): This will be interesting to see what CO and AA do specifically.
AA already released their European winter schedule. A few seasonal frequency reductions and capacity cuts (smaller planes), but no current plans to suspend any routes. That can change, of course.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27057 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20): I was not expecting this route to go...I am sure KE will be happy.
The route is a big one but not that big to support a daily KE 744 and additional capacity. Plus, the KE hub competes with the NRT hub, so even before the additional ATLNRT capacity you don't drive much incremental flow traffic but rather shif it between hubs.
Jetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2759 posts, RR: 29 Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 26989 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22): ATL-PVG/ICN and CVG-FRA/LGW - are four routes that many used to defend to death.
Frankly, all of these are merger-related to a significant degree.
Things changed VERY quickly with Asia due to the economy and the H1N1 Flu. ATL-PVG never made as much sense once DTW-PVG was operating anyway. No one at DL would have argued otherwise. I certainly wouldn't have either.
ATL-ICN was performing well..then the economy and flu hit it as well. But most importantly, ATL-ICN was added to improve connectivity to Asia. After the merger, it makes far more sense for Delta to keep that traffic on its own metal via NRT. In a sense, it could have still been a profitable route, but a strategic negative for the carrier. As every pax sent over ICN is a potential pax that could have flown on DL equipment beyond NRT.
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 25, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 26962 times:
Im not surprised at all. I was just saying in another thread that I thought CVG-FRA would be affected somehow. CVG-LGW does surprise me a bit, but I bet that one will come back during the summer.
ATL-PVG doesnt surprise me one bit. Its been awful from the beginning. Plus DTW is better suited for Asia traffic.
ATL-ICN doesnt surprise me either since there seems to be an emphasis more on NRT now, but we werent told that is the "shineing star of the Pacific network"?
Also I dont know if this has been brought up, but ATL-NRT will be operating daily with a 744 instead of 11x weekly.
Alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4594 posts, RR: 49 Reply 26, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 28418 times:
Quote: Panamair (Reply 19):
The "swine flu" hasn't helped and has had a significant impact on transpacific travel (as evidenced by the large drop in LF in May).
No, swine didn't help at all. Mex beach traffic will be affected in seasonal suspensions harder this year than before.
Quote: Jetlanta (Reply 24):
Things changed VERY quickly with Asia due to the economy and the H1N1 Flu. ATL-PVG never made as much sense once DTW-PVG was operating anyway. No one at DL would have argued otherwise. I certainly wouldn't have either.
Bingo - writing was on the wall with the NW merger and DTW-PVG launching. Not surprised on this one.
Quote: LAXdude1023 (Reply 25):
ATL-ICN doesnt surprise me either since there seems to be an emphasis more on NRT now, but we werent told that is the "shineing star of the Pacific network"? Wink
The route was well in better times. All airlines are hurting. Only Delta's the one that gets the sh*t from this board.
There are additional seasonal changes that will be made. No different than years past.
Cba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4530 posts, RR: 4 Reply 27, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 28396 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 7): ATL to PVG could mean the 777 moves to the DTW to PVG route in the fall, DTW is better positioned as for such a flight as the 777 takes 15 hours and 50 minutes to get there from ATL.
I think that we may see a lot of Asia service shifted to DTW in the future, while ATL remains the domestic super hub, and serves Europe and LatAm. DTW is much better positioned to capture connecting traffic going to Asia than ATL is, and NW has had a strong Asian network from this hub for decades going back to Northwest Orient. ATL-Asia service is still relatively new. ATL will be best suited for expansion into Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
I could be extrapolating a tad too much here, but it seems that DL may be reversing its initial post-merger behavior to grab NW resources (planes, routes, etc) and throw them all into ATL. Now I think that they are realizing that NW's network brings a lot to the table that they can build off of, rather than packing everything into ATL.
And honestly, the CVG reductions make perfect sense. CVG will probably be a focus city in the next 5 years due to its proximity to DTW. The only thing that will hold the focus city is DL's monopoly on the market there... but then again as DL pulls back we may see the Air Trans, Southwests and Jet Blues of the world creep in.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 28, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 28471 times:
I'm surprised one of the BOM trips didn't get cut, either ATLBOM or AMSBOM.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 25): AA already did. Just a few frequency cuts. No route cuts.
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 29, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 28227 times:
Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 26): Only Delta's the one that gets the sh*t from this board.
Definatley not. All the airline get their fare sare of it.
Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 26): Bingo - writing was on the wall with the NW merger and DTW-PVG launching. Not surprised on this one.
Will this mean that DTW-PVG will go daily now that ATL-PVG is kaput?
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 15272 posts, RR: 55 Reply 30, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 28171 times:
Surfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 28103 times:
The domestic economy will most likely recover well before the rest of the world economy. Why not reallocate some assets to the domestic market? Down guaging to increase yield only works if no one comes in and fills the void which hasn't seemed to be the case. When DL cuts many times the capacity is backfilled by another carrier. Why not work towards building route structure where you are lacking (West), replacing RJ routes with mainline, and prepare for the future. A side benefit would be putting pressure on your competition in a tough economic environment.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 5697 posts, RR: 28 Reply 32, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 28090 times:
Quoting Avconsultant (Reply 18): IMO, CVG might buy time based on DTW economic condition; however, CVG & DTW sit too close together to be efficient. In the 90's US was competing with itself with overlapping hubs. DTW and CVG would easily fall into this category.
There was an article not too long about how DL's management saw DTW. They were very excited about DTW and viewed it as having the potential to become a "superhub" despite all the economic woes of the area. While nothing was said specifically about CVG, the talk about growing DTW to be a superhub doesn't portend well for CVG.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 13): Because times change and Delta has changed. CVG-CDG has long been the cash cow. The role of CVG-FRA has diminished over the years as:
A) SkyTeam connectivity has become more important
B) CVG has shrunk
C) JFK has grown
D) DTW is in play
I agree with your analysis and I would add one more point. Rising fuel prices will kill a lot of RJ flying. CVG relies heavily on this RJ flying. By shifting capacity toward DTW, they can upgauge to more cost effective flying.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11009 posts, RR: 64 Reply 33, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27994 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 25): Im not surprised at all. I was just saying in another thread that I thought CVG-FRA would be affected somehow. CVG-LGW does surprise me a bit, but I bet that one will come back during the summer.
Agree with you, seems that the CVG-CDG connecting the main SkyTeam hub in Europe and allowing more and easy connections, would even demand a larger plane.
For DL it's good because they can reduce seat offer and increase yields.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
CO58 From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 45 posts, RR: 1 Reply 34, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27966 times:
Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 26): Only Delta's the one that gets the sh*t from this board.
Oh please! Go read a few threads that do not have "DL" in the title and you will see almost every airline gets its fair share of bashing on these boards, not just poor innocent Delta.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28): I'm surprised one of the BOM trips didn't get cut, either ATLBOM or AMSBOM.
I was surprised too. Hopefully KLM can take the AMS-BOM flight soon and let DL use the spare 763 to start something wonderful like SLC-ICN or downgauge an existing NW 330 flight.
AABB777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 413 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 28013 times:
More information on Delta cuts...
Delta is requesting the following relief:
Dormancy waiver of seven (7) U.S.-China frequencies, Atlanta-Shanghai,
from September 1, 2009 to September 1, 2010.
Dormancy waiver of four (4) U.S.-South Africa frequencies,
Atlanta-Capetown via Dakar, from September 1, 2009 to September 1,
2010.
Convert remaining three (3) of five (5) U.S.-Ukraine direct service
frequencies (New York-Kiev) from year-round to seasonal service,
effective September 1, 2009.
Convert remaining four (4) of seven (7) U.S.-Russia direct service
frequencies (Atlanta-Moscow) from year-round to seasonal service,
effective September 1, 2009.
Dormancy waiver of five (5) U.S.-Argentina seasonal frequencies, New
York-Buenos Aires, permitting Delta to resume JFK-Buenos Aires
seasonal service on December 18, 2010, rather than in December, 2009.
Tu154m From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 662 posts, RR: 7 Reply 37, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27990 times:
Recap:
Market changes
· ATL-BOM service ends 10/24/09
o Last op. 24OCT EB, 23OCT WB
o JFK-BOM starts 25OCT EB, 26OCT WB
· ATL-ICN service ends 8/30/09
o Last op. 30AUG WB, 31AUG EB
o Daily NRT-ICN remains
· ATL-PVG service ends 9/1/09
o Last op. 1SEP WB, 2SEP EB
4/week DTW-PVG and Daily NRT-PVG remain
· CVG-FRA service ends 8/29/09
o Last op. 29AUG EB, 30AUG WB
o Daily ATL-FRA, DTW-FRA and JFK-FRA remain
· CVG-LGW service ends 8/29/09
o Last op. 29AUG EB, 30AUG WB
o Daily ATL-LGW remains (plus LHR service)
Suspended Service various dates through March 2010
· ATL-PRG service suspended 9/26/09-3/27/10
o Last op. 25SEP EB, 26SEP WB
o JFK-PRG remains 3x weekly
· ATL-SVO service suspended 9/29/09-3/26/10
o Last op. 28SEP EB, 29SEPWB
o Daily JFK-SVO remains
· JFK-AGP service suspended 10/18/09-3/27/10
o Last op. 17OCT EB, 18OCT WB
· JFK-KBP service suspended 9/12/09-3/27/10
o Last op. 11SEP EB, 12SEP WB
· JFK-PSA service suspended 10/19/09-3/27/10
o Last op. 18OCT EB, 19OCT WB
· JFK-SNN service suspended 10/4/09-3/26/10
o Last op. 3OCT EB, 4OCT WB
· JFK-VLC service suspended 10/11/09-3/26/10
o Last op. 10OCT EB, 11OCT WB
· ATL-ARN service suspended 8/23/08-3/27/10
o Last op. 22AUG EB, 23AUG WB
Seasonal Service ending early
· MSP-CDG seasonal service ends 8/30/09
o Last op. 30AUG EB and WB
· JFK-OTP seasonal service ends 9/6/09
o Last op. 6SEP EB, 7SEP WB
· CVG-AMS seasonal service ends 8/15/09
o Last op. 15AUG EB, 16AUG WB
o ATL only remaining DL-coded service, multiple gateways with NW-code flights
· ATL-VCE seasonal service ends 10/10/09
o Last op. 10OCT EB, 11OCT WB
o Daily JFK-VCE remains
Discontinued Service
· ATL-CPT service ends 8/29/09
o Last op. 29AUG (28AUG ATL originator)
· JFK-EDI service ends 9/19/09
o Last op. 19SEP EB, 20SEP WB
DLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3397 posts, RR: 10 Reply 38, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27804 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 31): The domestic economy will most likely recover well before the rest of the world economy. Why not reallocate some assets to the domestic market?
I would say the opposite is true. I expect the rest of the world's economies to do better than the USA economy over the next few years.
MogandoCI From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1790 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27782 times:
If I were DL I would attempt to build up LAX and SEA as the Asian gateways (since UA's SFO fortress is nearly impossible to penetrate). NW chose DTW and DL chose ATL to route their traffic only because they had limited options in their existing hub structures.
Going to Asia and Europe via ATL involves major backtracking for most people within the US, and DTW's catchment area's economy has been on a long-term downtrend (so O&D and yields can only continue to deteriorate).
AABB777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 413 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27731 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 39): So CPT is gone all together? I though it would be seasonal? This also ends ATL-DKR.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 42, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27703 times:
Quoting AABB777 (Reply 41): Yes, cut until September 1, 2010
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11009 posts, RR: 64 Reply 43, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27617 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting AABB777 (Reply 35): Dormancy waiver of five (5) U.S.-Argentina seasonal frequencies, New
York-Buenos Aires, permitting Delta to resume JFK-Buenos Aires
seasonal service on December 18, 2010, rather than in December, 2009
Wow... one year waiver ?!
Quoting Tu154m (Reply 37): ATL-CPT service ends 8/29/09
o Last op. 29AUG (28AUG ATL originator)
That's a surprise, i was thinking that it was a good performer
Quoting Tu154m (Reply 37): ATL-SVO service suspended 9/29/09-3/26/10
o Last op. 28SEP EB, 29SEPWB
And also SVO has been downgraded from the previous expected 764 with flat beds to a 763.
Where the 764 will be used ?
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
CokePopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 968 posts, RR: 10 Reply 44, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27651 times:
On JFK-EZE we were leaving customers behind on several days....
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 45, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27477 times:
Quoting CokePopper (Reply 44): On JFK-EZE we were leaving customers behind on several days....
Unfortunately that was due to a whole bunch of low introductory fares...
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 46, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27490 times:
Jetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2759 posts, RR: 29 Reply 47, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27432 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 46): 2) Can we confirm that ATL-PVG/ICN and CVG-FRA/LGW are gone for good and not just seasonal?
They are "suspended". Its not seasonal. I'd not be surprised to see ATL-PVG back some day. CVG-LGW would be a reasonable summer seasonal. I suspect they will reevaluate that one as they go into the summer planning period.
DLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3397 posts, RR: 10 Reply 48, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27385 times:
Yup, that's the word. Apparently the AI pullout on the non-stop make it look good again.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 46): 2) Can we confirm that ATL-PVG/ICN and CVG-FRA/LGW are gone for good and not just seasonal?
• Atlanta-Seoul: indefinite suspension after Aug. 30
• Atlanta-Shanghai: indefinite suspension after Sept. 1
• Cincinnati-Frankfurt: indefinite suspension after Aug. 29
• Cincinnati-London-Gatwick: indefinite suspension after Aug. 29
You will have to tell me what "Indefinate suspension" means.
Surfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27223 times:
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 38): I would say the opposite is true. I expect the rest of the world's economies to do better than the USA economy over the next few years.
Possibly, but recent recessions have all began in the US and spead to the world, like this one, and the recovery began when the US recovery was well underway. Like it or not the US economy still drives the world economy. It would be nice if the airlines could be more proactive instead of constantly reactive. There are a lot of side benefits to reallocating to domestic including: reduced exposure to the pandemic de jour, reduced crew training, the ability to get rid of high frequency RJ routes and fill holes in the domestic network, to name a few.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 50, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27230 times:
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 48): You will have to tell me what "Indefinate suspension" means.
It's like Obama "saving or creating" jobs. It means they're gone. At least until somebody decides down the road to try them again.
AABB777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 413 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26857 times:
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 48): Atlanta-Shanghai: indefinite suspension after Sept. 1
....well according to DL's temporary dormancy request, this is atually suspended until September 1, 2010...
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 53, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26831 times:
Quoting AABB777 (Reply 52): ....well according to DL's temporary dormancy request, this is atually suspended until September 1, 2010...
It is the airline industry so anything can happen in a year, but I don't see DL bringing back a bunch of terrible routes in the worst month of the year.
DLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3397 posts, RR: 10 Reply 54, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26817 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 49): Like it or not the US economy still drives the world economy.
Not the way it used to. Look to China, Europe, and South America to lead the way out of this one.
The USA screwed up bad over the last 20 years, and continues to make all the wrong economic moves.
The rest of the world would not have had such problems this time, except that they held alot of worthless paper issued by Freddie and Fannie.
DL (and other airlines) have trimmed capacity both domestically and internationally over the past couple of years. To dump capacity into the domestic market as was done in the past will only exacerbate their own (and everyone elses) problems by depressing yield to the point where a 100%LF will still lose money.
....well according to DL's temporary dormancy request, this is atually suspended until September 1, 2010...
Dormancy requests for more than one year are only granted in extraordinary circumstances. Absent a dramatic shift in travel that sees the need to re-start these routes during the slowest travel period of the year, Delta will once again request dormancy waiver extensions to spring 2011 for routes they would like to resume.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 56, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26778 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 49): but recent recessions have all began in the US and spead to the world, like this one, and the recovery began when the US recovery was well underway
Getting OT here but if the US tries to "consume" and spend its way out of this crisis, like we did with others, we'll be back in another crisis in no time. Basically, it's time for others to consume more and for the U.S. to actually produce and save more...
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 57, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 26729 times:
Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 40): If I were DL I would attempt to build up LAX and SEA as the Asian gateways (since UA's SFO fortress is nearly impossible to penetrate). NW chose DTW and DL chose ATL to route their traffic only because they had limited options in their existing hub structures.
Going to Asia and Europe via ATL involves major backtracking for most people within the US, and DTW's catchment area's economy has been on a long-term downtrend (so O&D and yields can only continue to deteriorate).
Yeah, it makes you wonder how DL was successful all those years, doesn't it??
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
Surfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 26696 times:
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 54): Not the way it used to. Look to China, Europe, and South America to lead the way out of this one.
We'll see I guess. The US consumer is still the power behind the world economy in my opinion.
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 54): DL (and other airlines) have trimmed capacity both domestically and internationally over the past couple of years. To dump capacity into the domestic market as was done in the past will only exacerbate their own (and everyone elses) problems by depressing yield to the point where a 100%LF will still lose money.
The problem is that as you reduce domestic capacity it is often quickly back-filled by others. See post 9-11 actions by DL that allowed many competitors grow and thrive. DL's post BK cost structure is among the lowest in the industry. I'm saying DL should learn and be that competitor instead of following the cut, cut, cut,...oh crap where did they come from, mentality of the past.
MSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1312 posts, RR: 2 Reply 60, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 26485 times:
Cuts, cuts, cuts. It's getting old to hear. At least they're coming almost entirely from the DL side and not the NW side.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 61, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 26348 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 59): Quoting Mayor (Reply 57):
Yeah, it makes you wonder how DL was successful all those years, doesn't it??
Not really. The only trans-Pacific route that Delta has operaetd from ATL for more than two years is Tokyo.
Perhaps you didn't notice the sarcasm in my statement, in reference to the poster implying that DL hasn't been successful out of ATL, or anywhere, for that matter.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
DLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3397 posts, RR: 10 Reply 62, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 26315 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 58): The problem is that as you reduce domestic capacity it is often quickly back-filled by others. See post 9-11 actions by DL that allowed many competitors grow and thrive. DL's post BK cost structure is among the lowest in the industry. I'm saying DL should learn and be that competitor instead of following the cut, cut, cut,...oh crap where did they come from, mentality of the past.
One needs to look closer at the USA market and the fragmentation of that market since deregulation.
Since deregulation, the largest change to the USA's aviation market has been the introduction of the LCC. The LCCs have split the market with a partially fungable alternative to the legacy carrier. The LCCs have captured about 35% or so of the market.
What you describe as "backfill" has been the LCC picking up market share and the legacies cutting in response. Since the LCCs have been picking up domestic market share (as they can with lower costs), the amount of domestic passengers left for the legacy carriers to carry has decreased, requiring legacies to reduce domestic capacity.
What has been needed is a reduction in the number of legacy carriers in the long run as the market is no longer able to support so many. Thus the calls by many for legacy mergers.
727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 756 posts, RR: 5 Reply 63, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 26049 times:
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 60): Cuts, cuts, cuts. It's getting old to hear. At least they're coming almost entirely from the DL side and not the NW side.
True enough. It certainly looks more and more everyday like a wolf in Delta's coloring. I knew we were headed for trouble when Anderson was brought on board with DL. I haven't believed a word he's said yet and thus far haven't been surprised.
I am disappointed to see all of this. I have defended the CVG flights, I'll admit the errors of my ways. I still believe that the market is there, but DL has mismanaged this operation for the last 15 years and I fully expect the NW management to finish it off. I agree now that it will be nothing more than a focus city in 2 years and maybe even less than that in 5 years. Think DFW and PDX. I now expect WN to slide on in and DL will give up like they have been getting really good at lately.
RafflesKing From Singapore, joined Mar 2007, 300 posts, RR: 0 Reply 64, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 26083 times:
So does this just leave CVG with CDG non-stop year round? Are AMS and FCO even seasonable destinations any longer?
I'm not seeing the ATL-MEX cuts yet. Before piggy flu, it was 4x daily on DL metal, now its 2x, and 3x in October.
-------
Mah - why do you seem to always bicker with so many? I swear this is the third thread in a row I've read where you and some other poster spend 4 posts taking shots.
Surfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 65, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25984 times:
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 62): What has been needed is a reduction in the number of legacy carriers in the long run as the market is no longer able to support so many. Thus the calls by many for legacy mergers.
DL's cost structure aligns favoably with the LCCs since BK. I believe they need to leverage the benefits of a world-wide route structure and start taking back market share from them.
AVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 611 posts, RR: 1 Reply 66, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25939 times:
Any word on domestic cuts and the Mexico cuts? When will they be revealed?
727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 756 posts, RR: 5 Reply 67, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25957 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 65): DL's cost structure aligns favoably with the LCCs since BK. I believe they need to start taking back market share from them.
Mega Ditto. With DL's CASM the time is right but if it isn't capable of high RSMs they seem to be running for it.
MogandoCI From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1790 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25744 times:
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 62): What you describe as "backfill" has been the LCC picking up market share and the legacies cutting in response. Since the LCCs have been picking up domestic market share (as they can with lower costs), the amount of domestic passengers left for the legacy carriers to carry has decreased, requiring legacies to reduce domestic capacity.
What has been needed is a reduction in the number of legacy carriers in the long run as the market is no longer able to support so many. Thus the calls by many for legacy mergers.
Perhaps the cutting of hubs plus a more coherent hub strategy. The combined giant has NRT, SLC, MSP, DTW, MEM, CVG, ATL, JFK, AMS, and CDG (not the mention official and unofficial focus cities of LGA, SEA, LAX, BOS/DCA [due to presence of Delta Shuttle]). Do you really need 10 hubs and 3/5 focus cities?
I'd say (1) do to MEM what AA did to STL, (2) rename CVG as "focus" and blame it on the economy, (3) pick either AMS or CDG, (4) build out SEA+LAX, (5) decide whether you want to leverage the SkyTeam's ICN fortress, invade KE's turf by doing all the fllying out of NRT, or route everything using 787s out of SEA, (6) pick either SLC or MSP if you need connectivity to BigSky and the Plains (I know they're far apart, but I'd say that's the only portion of the map that SEA+LAX+DTW+ATL can't handle).
After all that, the new DL should be much more lean with only SEA, LAX, SLC, DTW, ATL, JFK, CDG, and either ICN or NRT. 8 (6 domestic + 2 intl) hubs is way more manageable.
Something's wrong when the only true SkyTeam hub in Asia is ICN, and with the suspension of ATL-ICN, DL doesn't fly nonstop to ICN from continental US at all. (And how many people want to connect in CAN instead )
DLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3397 posts, RR: 10 Reply 69, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25663 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 65): DL's cost structure aligns favoably with the LCCs since BK. I believe they need to leverage the benefits of a world-wide route structure and start taking back market share from them.
Source? They are called Low Cost Carriers for a reason.
It is alot more expensive to maintain multiple aircraft types, multiple employee type certifications, multiple ticket distribution systems, international route authorities, code-shares, interlining.........
Joe Sixpack doesn't care about world-wide route structures, only who will give him the cheapest ticket from BWI to MDW.
DL (or any other legacy carrier) does not care so much about marketshare as they do about profitability. RASM is much more important than marketshare.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 5697 posts, RR: 28 Reply 70, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25641 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 65): I believe they need to leverage the benefits of a world-wide route structure and start taking back market share from them.
DL's costs are certainly improved, but trying to duke it out for domestic marketshare with the LCC's is a losing proposition. Adjusting for stage length, carriers like B6, FL and WN still have a good 20% cost advantage over DL on domestic flying.
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2581 posts, RR: 7 Reply 71, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25584 times:
AA made a similar announcement today, without specific route impacts.
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2581 posts, RR: 7 Reply 75, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25426 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 73): That's actually total capacity cut 7.5%.
AABB777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 413 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 25321 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 73): Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 71):
AA made a similar announcement today, without specific route impacts.
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3063 posts, RR: 17 Reply 77, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 25163 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 61): Perhaps you didn't notice the sarcasm in my statement, in reference to the poster implying that DL hasn't been successful out of ATL, or anywhere, for that matter.
I'm quite sure he understood it and was replying directly to you in saying that DL has, in fact, been quite unsuccessful in their ATL-Asia attempts.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11009 posts, RR: 64 Reply 78, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 25141 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 54): Not the way it used to. Look to China, Europe, and South America to lead the way out of this one.
Very true. But even BRICs are getting in trouble. I see only a few bigger markets with ability to recover faster: China, Brazil and India.
Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 68): Perhaps the cutting of hubs plus a more coherent hub strategy. The combined giant has NRT, SLC, MSP, DTW, MEM, CVG, ATL, JFK, AMS, and CDG (not the mention official and unofficial focus cities of LGA, SEA, LAX, BOS/DCA [due to presence of Delta Shuttle]). Do you really need 10 hubs and 3/5 focus cities?
Agree, but excpet for ATL, NRT and AMS, all they can do is try to release which hubs they can eliminate. JFK, DTW, MSP, SLC, MEM, MSP and CVG is for sure too much even for the world's largest airline (as you mentioned, not to forget about 5 focus cities)
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
USAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2420 posts, RR: 2 Reply 79, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 25074 times:
So..when DL says they're suspending CVG-LGW/FRA, they're bringing it back , right? They didn't say they're discontinuing it.
Mexicana: "La Primera Siempre Sera La Primera" R.I.P. Mexicana!
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 81, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 25029 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 77): Quoting Mayor (Reply 61):
Perhaps you didn't notice the sarcasm in my statement, in reference to the poster implying that DL hasn't been successful out of ATL, or anywhere, for that matter.
I'm quite sure he understood it and was replying directly to you in saying that DL has, in fact, been quite unsuccessful in their ATL-Asia attempts.
Ah, but the original statement I was replying to also mentioned they were unsuccessful to Europe out of ATL. I just made a blanket, sarcastic statement in response.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
IrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 972 posts, RR: 4 Reply 82, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24996 times:
Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 40): If I were DL I would attempt to build up LAX and SEA as the Asian gateways (since UA's SFO fortress is nearly impossible to penetrate). NW chose DTW and DL chose ATL to route their traffic only because they had limited options in their existing hub structures.
Going to Asia and Europe via ATL involves major backtracking for most people within the US, and DTW's catchment area's economy has been on a long-term downtrend (so O&D and yields can only continue to deteriorate).
That's not gonna happen.
If DL couldn't make a LatAm hub work from LAX, what makes them think that a transpacific one would? I highly doubt DL is going to add more flights from SEA other than the markets it currently serves, and who knows, you may even see some of those get chopped as well.
It is not prudent to build international capacity in small-to-non-hub markets that have little connecting feed or traffic in this economic climate. For now, Delta's best strategy in its Asian operations is to rely heavily on its NRT hub rather than open up a US West Coast gateway, or even add more nonstops to Asian markets from its existing US hubs like DTW, MSP, ATL, SLC, etc. As long as DL provides plenty of good connections from US gateways through NRT and onward to large markets in the Asia/Pacific basin, the carrier will be in much better shape.
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 48): Yup, that's the word. Apparently the AI pullout on the non-stop make it look good again.
Last I checked, both nonstop AI flights to BOM and DEL are still there from JFK. I don't know where you got your info from. You might be confusing it with the discontinuation of the AI JFK-LHR segments.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 51):
Sort of how like RDU-CDG won't be starting next summer, either.
JBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4398 posts, RR: 23 Reply 83, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24922 times:
Quoting Hywel (Reply 72): Sorry to see LGW-CVG going, but I was on it 4 weeks ago and it was less than half full
So was I. I flew on Fridays--we were more than 3/4ths full but I was still surprised at the number of empty seats I saw.
I hate that routing's going--customs in CVG is pretty quick and I prefer LGW over LHR...
Jetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2759 posts, RR: 29 Reply 84, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24930 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 70): DL's costs are certainly improved, but trying to duke it out for domestic marketshare with the LCC's is a losing proposition. Adjusting for stage length, carriers like B6, FL and WN still have a good 20% cost advantage over DL on domestic flying.
Very true.
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 71): AA made a similar announcement today, without specific route impacts.
It should be pointed out again that Delta is probably the strongest network carrier. These cuts are intended to keep it that way. We will be hearing similar things from the rest...just as we have from around the world. Given Delta's new scale, the shear number of routes is high, but the actions are not out of line with what we are seeing on a global scale.
Most of these moves are preemptive, given the outlook. Many of them will be back, just as many of the post-9/11 cuts were eventually reinstated. (Most will be back for Summer 2010) The strategy hasn't changed, but the environment has.
What has also changed is Delta's ability to adapt. It's new network structure gives it flexibility to cut, while still maintaining a footprint. CO has that in the sense that many of its EWR markets are double-daily. They can reduce frequency without damaging the network.
Delta doesn't serve as many O&D's with more than daily service, but they do operate many markets from multiple gateways. So the destination doesn't necessarily disappear.
On the whole, its sad to see this, but I'd much prefer the the entire industry did this and weather the storm than retain too much capacity and end up back at the courthouse.
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 85, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24807 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 84): On the whole, its sad to see this, but I'd much prefer the the entire industry did this and weather the storm than retain too much capacity and end up back at the courthouse.
Amen brother!
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 84): Most of these moves are preemptive, given the outlook.
I could definately see CVG-LGW as a 757 flight during the summer.
AA already announced the details of a 6.5% cut in international capacity and now theyre saying 7.5%. So they only have 1% left they have to announce the details on (Im guessing AA might make ORD-DME seasonal)
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
Surfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 86, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 24622 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 70): DL's costs are certainly improved, but trying to duke it out for domestic marketshare with the LCC's is a losing proposition. Adjusting for stage length, carriers like B6, FL and WN still have a good 20% cost advantage over DL on domestic flying.
I'll agree with that but DL still maintains a RASM advantage. Overall CASM could be cut with larger aircraft flying routes. RASM advantage could be maintained with first class, BOB, WIFI and TV sales etc. The opposite of what DL has been doing as it tries to cut capacity to increase revenue only to watch it backfilled by low cost carriers. Could larger aircraft flown less frequently be the key to giving the customer what they want.....a good product at a fair price? Or is the only alternative to throw up your hands and try to fly where the LCCs don't.....yet.
Tu154m From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 662 posts, RR: 7 Reply 87, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 24638 times:
AGAIN, as the response in reply 37:
Market changes
· ATL-BOM service ends 10/24/09
o Last op. 24OCT EB, 23OCT WB
o JFK-BOM starts 25OCT EB, 26OCT WB
Since there seem to be alot of people still not understanding what this means:
ATL-BOM ENDS(finished, stops, ceases) 10/24/09. LAST OP eastbound is 10/24, last westbound is 10/23.
FFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0 Reply 88, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 24331 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22): AA already released their European winter schedule. A few seasonal frequency reductions and capacity cuts (smaller planes), but no current plans to suspend any routes. That can change, of course.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 25): AA already did. Just a few frequency cuts. No route cuts.
Well, yet again, nowadays - Where Delta leads - Others will follow...
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 89, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 24220 times:
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 88): Well, yet again, nowadays - Where Delta leads - Others will follow...
And there will be much more down the pipe from others (in my opinion)!
American already anncounced they were cutting 6.5% of their international capacity. They released the details and no routes were cut, just capacity reductions. Now they are upping that number to 7.5%. Thats only one more percentage point than what they have already announced. That means whatever else is being cut, wont be drastic at all.
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
Jetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2759 posts, RR: 29 Reply 90, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 24160 times:
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 88):
Well, yet again, nowadays - Where Delta leads - Others will follow...
And there will be much more down the pipe from others (in my opinion)!
Come on man...they announced the cuts the SAME DAY at the SAME EVENT. AA wasn't following Delta. They were both making the same sound business decision. Others will as well. These plans takes weeks, if not months, to formulate. Pretty much all the carriers have indicated they would reduce capacity further if necessary. It's necessary.
The one big difference is that, due to the merger, Delta has some extra weight it can shed and still be in fighting condition. Some of the others are already pretty lean and cuts might be more painful.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30434 posts, RR: 77 Reply 91, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 24137 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 89): American already anncounced they were cutting 6.5% of their international capacity. They released the details and no routes were cut, just capacity reductions. Now they are upping that number to 7.5%.
The 6.5%/7.5% being cut is total capacity, not just international.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 92, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 23919 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 91): The 6.5%/7.5% being cut is total capacity, not just international
The additional cuts will be made up of 1% domestic and 3.5% international.
CO is also slated to announce capacity cuts in July.
FFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 23920 times:
A buddy of mine with AA just called me and told me that AA plans a cut of something like 1000 plus FA's?? If this is true, AA must have other capacity reductions in mind?
Will followup with information when I speak to him again! Anyone else with info?
Wonder how many more Delta folks will be offered early outs? Will AA offer early outs as well or just furlough their employees?
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 94, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 23773 times:
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 93): A buddy of mine with AA just called me and told me that AA plans a cut of something like 1000 plus FA's??
Ive heard the same thing. 1200 was the number I heard. Not sure yet though.
I imagine it will pretty much be like that across the board.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 91): The 6.5%/7.5% being cut is total capacity, not just international.
I heard most cuts were going to be international. I dont think there should be any route cuts (maybe 1 at most).
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
FFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0 Reply 95, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 23742 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 90): The one big difference is that, due to the merger, Delta has some extra weight it can shed and still be in fighting condition. Some of the others are already pretty lean and cuts might be more painful.
I totally agree with you. Cut me a break here... These AA guys love to rile up the Delta guys so it's kinda fun when the shoe goes to the other foot. Statements made earlier indicated AA was done making any further cuts and I believe that this is just the beginning of many further capacity reductions - not just for DL and AA - but for others as well and will be announced in next few weeks if not sooner. Those who do not - will not survice if fuel keeps creeping upwards not to mention all the other variables that are taking place currently.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4910 posts, RR: 21 Reply 96, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 23645 times:
How times change. I remember in the mid 90's when DL was flying CVG-FRA twice daily. AT the time it was reportedly DL's most profitable flight.
In terms of ATL-PVG, the route was more or less necessary pre-merger in order to gain a footprint in China. However, they now have several other gateways to work with. IMHO, DL would be wise to look at either JFK or West Coast (LAX or SEA) to China flying.
I think that what killed ATL-ICN more than anything is DL's newfound ability to route those flying beyond ICN onto its own metal at NRT. Of course, if DL and KE were to ever pursue a JV, the route could potentially return.
FFlyerworld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0 Reply 97, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 23443 times:
This article sums up what I believe will be forthcoming regardless of what the koolaiders at several carriers wish to believe...
SLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3818 posts, RR: 12 Reply 98, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 23168 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 96): In terms of ATL-PVG, the route was more or less necessary pre-merger in order to gain a footprint in China. However, they now have several other gateways to work with. IMHO, DL would be wise to look at either JFK or West Coast (LAX or SEA) to China flying.
Getting the route authority was the big issue here, and DL had a much better probablity of getting ATL service to PVG, than from LAX or JFK which are already very well served to mainland China via various carriers mainly Chinese flag. SEA would be amore logical solution for them with perhaps an ATL or SLC origination with the 772ER for starters.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
AvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 99, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 22463 times:
Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 26): No, swine didn't help at all. Mex beach traffic will be affected in seasonal suspensions harder this year than before.
The fire fights between the Drug Lords and the Federales outside the resorts in Acapulco cannot be good for business much less the Swine Flu.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32): There was an article not too long about how DL's management saw DTW. They were very excited about DTW and viewed it as having the potential to become a "superhub" despite all the economic woes of the area. While nothing was said specifically about CVG, the talk about growing DTW to be a superhub doesn't portend well for CVG.
No, I did not see that article!! There you have it. That could be the unofficial fate of Cincy. They do not have the local traffic to support a hub while it has to be one of the best facilities in the country. 3 of the 4 runways are +10,000 ft. A & B Concourse are nice. Exclusive hub carrier. But it is what it is.
Quoting CO58 (Reply 34): Oh please! Go read a few threads that do not have "DL" in the title and you will see almost every airline gets its fair share of bashing on these boards, not just poor innocent Delta.
Take a look at the YX critics or when is NW going to retire the DC-9's.
Centrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 23 Reply 100, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21986 times:
I wonder if we will see any aircraft swapping in the fall.
The 777s and 744s could be swapped on routes that need reduction or increase of capacity. Maybe some other swaps to deal with aircraft maintenance, painting and reconfiguring. It seems like a good time to suspend.
How many DL aircraft will join the fleet by September 2010? What kinds?
That could point to how they want to reassign the fleet internationally.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 2908 posts, RR: 2 Reply 101, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21969 times:
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 98): Getting the route authority was the big issue here, and DL had a much better probablity of getting ATL service to PVG, than from LAX or JFK which are already very well served to mainland China via various carriers mainly Chinese flag. SEA would be amore logical solution for them with perhaps an ATL or SLC origination with the 772ER for starters.
I always thought SEA was their best choice for a west coast gateway given that there's the most connecting traffic, it's in a better location, is a shorter flight, and doesn't have the same competition as LAX. I'm still hoping that SEA-PEK will be launched, but am not holding my breath in the current economy.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4910 posts, RR: 21 Reply 102, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21872 times:
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 101): always thought SEA was their best choice for a west coast gateway given that there's the most connecting traffic, it's in a better location, is a shorter flight, and doesn't have the same competition as LAX. I'm still hoping that SEA-PEK will be launched, but am not holding my breath in the current economy.
That may very well be what happens. As I said above, I believe that DL's best bet is to operate China from either JFK or a West Coast gateway (either LAX or SEA).
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 5697 posts, RR: 28 Reply 103, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21831 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 86): RASM advantage could be maintained with first class, BOB, WIFI and TV sales etc.
Maybe, but think of FL for a minute. FL has a business class, will have BOB and WiFi, so DL's advantage isn't that great. The prime reason DL has a higher RASM than FL is a reasonably large cadre of loyal business travelers. After that group, DL gets no better RASM from leisure travelers than FL does. So if DL tries to dump more capacity on FL, all they'll be attempting to do is mostly steal away low-yield leisure traffic.....not worth it.
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 86): The opposite of what DL has been doing as it tries to cut capacity to increase revenue only to watch it backfilled by low cost carriers.
Outside of Florida (and a few focus cities like BOS, CMH), DL hasn't seen LCC's backfill that much of its capacity. DL has over the years slashed capacity at places like MGM, HSV, GSP, etc, but there's been no big flood of LCC's. Even where LCC's have come, DL has pumped in plenty of capacity.
Take a look at a market like PNS-ATL. On a typical weekday, DL is offering 1,210 seats each way. That's a significant amount of capacity for a smaller market. How much more capacity do you think they should dump to try and drive FL out? FL offers 468 seats in comparison.
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 86): Could larger aircraft flown less frequently be the key to giving the customer what they want.....a good product at a fair price?
I definitely think the industry will slowly trend back this way. The days of 10x daily CRJ's on a route will be ending. But even still, there's still room for LCC and legacies to exist.
SLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3818 posts, RR: 12 Reply 104, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21600 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 103): I definitely think the industry will slowly trend back this way. The days of 10x daily CRJ's on a route will be ending. But even still, there's still room for LCC and legacies to exist.
With WN more restrained and not doing as well $$$ wise, I think there is room to slash capacity, especially multiple 50 seat CRJ city pairs. But DL?NW needs to also eliminate many older mainline aircraft now that they are completing the merger. Older MDD aircraft such as the DC-9 come to mind.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
CRJ200FAGuy From United States of America, joined May 2007, 352 posts, RR: 0 Reply 105, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21310 times:
Quoting CO58 (Reply 34): Oh please! Go read a few threads that do not have "DL" in the title and you will see almost every airline gets its fair share of bashing on these boards, not just poor innocent Delta.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I get sick and tired of hearing about how everyone is soooo mean to Delta. Personally, after what they've done to me the past week I rather enjoy Delta bashing.
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 104): But DL?NW needs to also eliminate many older mainline aircraft now that they are completing the merger. Older MDD aircraft such as the DC-9 come to mind.
How about inferior aircraft like the 767? Why do Deltoids want to get rid of the 9 so fast? It's paid for and does it's job.
LH469 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 44 posts, RR: 0 Reply 106, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21330 times:
The route cuts announced today don't appear to add-up to -15% in International DL/NW capacity. Any idea as to which additional routes to be cut and time-line for desc.?
Skibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0 Reply 107, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 21146 times:
Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 99): Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32):
There was an article not too long about how DL's management saw DTW. They were very excited about DTW and viewed it as having the potential to become a "superhub" despite all the economic woes of the area. While nothing was said specifically about CVG, the talk about growing DTW to be a superhub doesn't portend well for CVG.
No, I did not see that article!! There you have it. That could be the unofficial fate of Cincy. They do not have the local traffic to support a hub while it has to be one of the best facilities in the country. 3 of the 4 runways are +10,000 ft. A & B Concourse are nice. Exclusive hub carrier. But it is what it is.
I swear, DL did not plan this what so ever. It is that new airline the KCAB brought into CVG. Those B1900s that fly to Somerset, KY are scaring DL out of CVG.
ThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2210 posts, RR: 2 Reply 108, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 19998 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8): The hits just keep on coming for CVG.
Yep!! let's face it...CVG is so redundant right now....
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10): Why are they cutting CVG-FRA if it supposedly has such good yields? I have seen several mentions on here about how DL does rather well on CVG-FRA (and I believe CVG-CDG as well), so why are they cutting that would seem to be moneymakers? I will freely admit that I've considered it a "gift" for a while now that DL has maintained transatlantic service beyond CDG out of CVG, so I'm not just bitching about losing service.
CVG is not a "moneymaker" anymore it so obsolete now.....maybe back in 96'
Quoting Avconsultant (Reply 18):
IMO, CVG might buy time based on DTW economic condition; however, CVG & DTW sit too close together to be efficient. In the 90's US was competing with itself with overlapping hubs. DTW and CVG would easily fall into this category.
MEM is too close to ATL....
Quoting Cba (Reply 27): And honestly, the CVG reductions make perfect sense. CVG will probably be a focus city in the next 5 years due to its proximity to DTW. The only thing that will hold the focus city is DL's monopoly on the market there... but then again as DL pulls back we may see the Air Trans, Southwests and Jet Blues of the world creep in.
Agreed CVG will go way of PIT
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32): I agree with your analysis and I would add one more point. Rising fuel prices will kill a lot of RJ flying. CVG relies heavily on this RJ flying. By shifting capacity toward DTW, they can upgauge to more cost effective flying.
economically speaking DL/NW operate a complex inefficient fleet....CVG is even more redundant by having 80% of traffic CRJs flying there
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 51): Sort of how like RDU-CDG won't be starting next summer, either.
Quoting RafflesKing (Reply 64): So does this just leave CVG with CDG non-stop year round? Are AMS and FCO even seasonable destinations any longer?
FCO was out a while back AMS is a go for now..
Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 105): How about inferior aircraft like the 767? Why do Deltoids want to get rid of the 9 so fast? It's paid for and does it's job.
Are you kidding? there's nothing worse than flying a gas guzzler that was built in 1972.....
Hjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 847 posts, RR: 3 Reply 109, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 19720 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 102): That may very well be what happens. As I said above, I believe that DL's best bet is to operate China from either JFK or a West Coast gateway (either LAX or SEA).
I agree halfway... the markets in JFK and LAX are larger, but they offer fewer connecting possibilities (JFK too far East, and LAX not enough in-flow connectivity). DL would also have to compete with other carriers on these routes, which would hurt yields and in most cases, DL's product would be inferior to the Asian competitors. If DL choses, however, to route passengers through one of it's mega hubs, it doesn't have to compete head to head with the competing carriers in those markets. Those carriers likely don't have very advantageous code-sharing or interline agreements, so DL would be able to command a price premium from more markets when they route their flights to China from an exclusive DL hub, where DL is the only entrant in the market. Therefore DL has better connectivity, fewer logistical problems with repositioning aircraft, and commands a higher percent of the market and therefore can set it's own prices. I also feel that flying from a DL exclusive hub is less risky.
Quoting LH469 (Reply 106): The route cuts announced today don't appear to add-up to -15% in International DL/NW capacity. Any idea as to which additional routes to be cut and time-line for desc.?
I was wondering whether anyone did the math to see what was the actual percentage of capacity reduction. I heard that DL planned between 10-12% of INTL reductions. If anything more is to be removed, it will be hub-hub flying, IMO, where it is easy to remove capacity or frequency and therefore save money.
I'm surprised that DTW has seen no cuts whatsoever. This is very surprising given the weakend economy. I was totally expecting capacity reductions in DTW first. Perhaps, DTW is well balanced and it's number of INTL connections is well-suited to the local market + connections.
I'm also surprised to see so many cuts/suspensions at ATL. Are the enlarged terminal facilities for DL at JFK (T4) helping create more opportunities for DL flying ex JFK? DL should focus on placing its best products on the JFK routes, as this market is the most competitive, yet the most lucrative, and DL could increase market share by improving the "total experience" by improving their facilities and onboard product. With more gate space, they might also be able to provide better connectivity from more domestic markets.
For NYC market, I believe that DL should offer domestic flights to LGA in the morning and evening periods for the O&D market, but afternoon connections should probably be routed to JFK in order meet the late afternoon departure bank for European flying. This seems logical to me.
Centrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 23 Reply 110, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 19622 times:
Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 109): I'm surprised that DTW has seen no cuts whatsoever. This is very surprising given the weakend economy. I was totally expecting capacity reductions in DTW first. Perhaps, DTW is well balanced and it's number of INTL connections is well-suited to the local market + connections.
I thought there were some reductions and cuts in the last round at DTW. I know DTW-NGO was reduced. Wasn't a London frequency reduced?
I think DTW could be next but I think it depends on the availability of aircraft and ability to move crews around.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
MarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 572 posts, RR: 0 Reply 111, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 19586 times:
Interesting how the articles of American sources always somehow get to make US carriers as "the world's largest". In this case Delta. Based on whatever measure they can find, no doubt. But don't ever call pax boardings the best measure of "largest".
(Same as saying that Atlanta is the world's largest airport by pax boardings, even though that's mostly about domestic forced transfers, and has nothing to do with it's stature as a world hub - which it isn't and will never be due to its disadvantageous location too far to the south).
Market value is probably the best measure ( I think SQ succeeds in that one), followed by revenue (KLM-AF), and then passenger-kilometers-flown (anybody?).
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 28 Reply 112, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 19415 times:
Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 26): The route was well in better times. All airlines are hurting. Only Delta's the one that gets the sh*t from this board.
With all due respect, you can blame it on a certain "global traveler" the vast majority of the time. I know for me I have no problem with Delta (it's just a company, for goodness sake) but when you get someone who just has to be right about everything, you can't help but cast stones.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 90): The one big difference is that, due to the merger, Delta has some extra weight it can shed and still be in fighting condition. Some of the others are already pretty lean and cuts might be more painful.
They are in a great position to do exactly that. As you say, what more can a carrier like Continental or American cut without harming the entire network.........without merging?
ReuschAir From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 113, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 19408 times:
Quoting Avconsultant (Reply 18): We know MSP is going no where with the agreement between DL & the state of Minnesota.
Can someone give background and likely direction of the MSP situation and DL because of the state of MN? I'm clueless in this aspect.
Aviationwiz From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 952 posts, RR: 5 Reply 114, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 19417 times:
Quoting AABB777 (Reply 41): Yes, cut until September 1, 2010.
Huh? So their cutting CPT right before the summer 2009/2010 season (South African summer) and starting it back up right after the World Cup? I know a lot goes in to route planning, but I can't think of a possible reason for that.
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3063 posts, RR: 17 Reply 115, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 19147 times:
Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 108): Are you kidding? there's nothing worse than flying a gas guzzler that was built in 1972.....
You obviously have no knowledge on the matter, it would seem.
The DC9's, as they are long-since paid for, can quite often operates route cheaper than their more fuel-efficient counterparts in the fleet as a large majority of the A319/A320's and 737's all still have very high monthly lease costs.
Fuel efficiency is only one piece of a rather large puzzle. Cost of acquisition and operation play a huge part in that. The DC9's have no monthly cost and run remarkably cheap.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30434 posts, RR: 77 Reply 116, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 19109 times:
Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 108): Quoting RafflesKing (Reply 64):
So does this just leave CVG with CDG non-stop year round? Are AMS and FCO even seasonable destinations any longer?
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 28 Reply 117, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 19044 times:
Quoting Aviationwiz (Reply 114): Huh? So their cutting CPT right before the summer 2009/2010 season (South African summer) and starting it back up right after the World Cup? I know a lot goes in to route planning, but I can't think of a possible reason for that
I'm guessing that they could choose to restart the route at any time if they wanted to, but are simply picking an arbitrary date in the future as "placeholders" for the route authorities. As others have said, I suppose they could simply be delaying the inevitable, though I think they simply want to buy themselves some time to see how things shake out over the next 12 months....or so.
CV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 816 posts, RR: 1 Reply 118, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 19036 times:
Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 109): I agree halfway... the markets in JFK and LAX are larger, but they offer fewer connecting possibilities (JFK too far East, and LAX not enough in-flow connectivity). DL would also have to compete with other carriers on these routes, which would hurt yields and in most cases, DL's product would be inferior to the Asian competitors
If DL were to have authority to fly LAX-PVG/PEK, the local traffic should be able to support the route. There is no US Flag Carrier on either route, and DL should be able to siphon some SoCal traffic from UA that connect to these destinations via SFO, as well as traffic from Air China & China Eastern. A little feed from the surrounding area such as PHX/SAN/LAS/SLC wouldn't hurt. IF DL is to ever make a true hub out of LAX, now is the time to prepare for 2010 and beyond.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 119, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 18870 times:
Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 111): Based on whatever measure they can find, no doubt. But don't ever call pax boardings the best measure of "largest".
Uh, Delta actually does not base its claim on being the world's largest based on pax boardings.
Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 111): Market value is probably the best measure ( I think SQ succeeds in that one), followed by revenue (KLM-AF), and then passenger-kilometers-flown (anybody?).
Funny you should mention revenues and passenger-km-flown, because by both those measures, Delta/Northwest is the world's largest. FYI, the most commonly 'accepted' measure of airline size is based on revenue passenger miles (RPMs) or revenue passenger kilometers (for the metric world) - RPK.
Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 109): I'm surprised that DTW has seen no cuts whatsoever
Well, DTW-NRT is supposed to be reduced to a single daily starting in the fall. And as for Europe, there is not much more they can reduce - other than to make DTW-FCO seasonal. DTW has LHR, FRA, AMS and FCO currently - perhaps frequency cuts and downgauging on DTW-AMS. One thing we have not seen so far is the change of gauge that I would expect in some markets for the fall/winter.
Quoting LH469 (Reply 106): The route cuts announced today don't appear to add-up to -15% in International DL/NW capacity. Any idea as to which additional routes to be cut and time-line for desc.?
Those few announced ones (in the press release) don't, but if you see subsequent posts on seasonal cancellations and unannounced downgauging, they quickly will add up...
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30434 posts, RR: 77 Reply 120, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 18867 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 117):
I'm guessing that they could choose to restart the route at any time if they wanted to, but are simply picking an arbitrary date in the future as "placeholders" for the route authorities.
The date is not arbitrary. DOT does not grant dormancy for more than 12 months out unless it is an extraordinary circumstance. The route ends August 30th.
It is my understanding that Delta currently does not intend to resume Cape Town, but will nonetheless keep the route authority dormant.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 28 Reply 121, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 18805 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 120): The date is not arbitrary. DOT does not grant dormancy for more than 12 months out unless it is an extraordinary circumstance. The route ends August 30th.
Thanks for the clarification - I didn't realize that 12 months was the maximum timeframe. I should have been more clear. What I meant was:
I'm guessing that they could choose to restart the route at any time "prior to the end of the 12 month period" if they wanted to,
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30434 posts, RR: 77 Reply 122, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 18783 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 121):
I'm guessing that they could choose to restart the route at any time "prior to the end of the 12 month period" if they wanted to,
Correct, they can.
However, in a memo sent out to employees today, it was listed as an indefinite suspension, while other suspended routes (i.e. Atlanta-Moscow, Atlanta-Stockholm, JFK-Pisa) had re-start dates listed.
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2378 posts, RR: 29 Reply 123, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 18581 times:
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 115): The DC9's, as they are long-since paid for, can quite often operates route cheaper than their more fuel-efficient counterparts in the fleet as a large majority of the A319/A320's and 737's all still have very high monthly lease costs.
A good point, but remember those more costly Airbus and Boeing aircraft can fly a heck of a lot further than the DC-9s....
An A319 (roughly the same capacity as a DC-9) could fly the short haul DC-9 routes such as DTW-ORD or MSP-MKE, but also the likes of MSP-MIA, DTW-SAN, etc. In fact, I think even the CRJ-900 and ERJ-175 can fly further than the DC-9...am I wrong?
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 124, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 17689 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 112): but when you get someone who just has to be right about everything, you can't help but cast stones.
Sure you can. There are others on here that are just as adamant about their favorite airline being the best, but they never seem to get abused like DL does.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
Jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 6312 posts, RR: 1 Reply 125, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 17474 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 102): That may very well be what happens. As I said above, I believe that DL's best bet is to operate China from either JFK or a West Coast gateway (either LAX or SEA).
Delta's ace in the hole for service to Asia is DTW, with NW's fabulous terminal. DTW's geographic location is great for the great circle route to Asia, DL's 77L can go far into Asia from there.
In the way distant past pre -744's days, NW did have respectable service from SEA to NRT, Seoul and other Asian points.
Tinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2 Reply 126, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17422 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 123): In fact, I think even the CRJ-900 and ERJ-175 can fly further than the DC-9...am I wrong?
Nope...you are correct. The E175 has a range approaching 2,000NM and the CR9 about 1,800NM or so. I asked a DC-9 capt how much range they could get out of it and his response was about 1,500NM.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2581 posts, RR: 7 Reply 127, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17426 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 125): In the way distant past pre -744's days, NW did have respectable service from SEA to NRT, Seoul and other Asian points.
As did DL from PDX. At the time, it was am impressive transpacific network for the size of the metro area.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 128, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17404 times:
Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 109): I was wondering whether anyone did the math to see what was the actual percentage of capacity reduction. I heard that DL planned between 10-12% of INTL reductions
Back in March they said they'd reduce Transatlantic and Transpacific by 10-12%, and yesterday they announced additional cuts of up to 20%. The Transatlantic cuts they've made so far plus yesterday's get them to about 10% down YOY--if they're curring 20% they need to double the cuts. TPAC is even worse--yesterday's announcement plus all the other adjustments they've made get them to about halfway to their March goal, never mind yesterday's increased target. Anyone can confirm?
Quoting CV880 (Reply 118): If DL were to have authority to fly LAX-PVG/PEK, the local traffic should be able to support the route
They can fly it, but they'll be the new carrier struggling to match CZ/CA/MU fares--basically the same problem that they face at JFK with offshore competition.
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 129, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17356 times:
Jetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2759 posts, RR: 29 Reply 130, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 17206 times:
Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 111): Interesting how the articles of American sources always somehow get to make US carriers as "the world's largest". In this case Delta. Based on whatever measure they can find, no doubt. But don't ever call pax boardings the best measure of "largest".
(Same as saying that Atlanta is the world's largest airport by pax boardings, even though that's mostly about domestic forced transfers, and has nothing to do with it's stature as a world hub - which it isn't and will never be due to its disadvantageous location too far to the south).
Market value is probably the best measure ( I think SQ succeeds in that one), followed by revenue (KLM-AF), and then passenger-kilometers-flown (anybody?).
ASM/ASK is the industry-accepted standard of size. Delta is the largest in the world using that measure. Market value is a ridiculous metric as it fluctuates day-to-day and has nothing to do with size. Revenue is a little better, however many airline groups have non-airline related subsidiaries that skew the data. Should, for example, Lufthansa Consulting be included when determining LH's size versus other airlines? When United owned Westin and Hertz...should they have been included? ASM/ASK has long been the accepted standard as defined by IATA.
To the same point, passenger traffic (no matter connecting or originating) has always been the industry-accepted measure for airports. You diminish ATL by saying its not a world hub, as if that somehow makes it less BUSY. A person traveling through ATL from BWI to TPA is no less a person than someone traveling through SIN from SYD to SVO. People moving through airports is the definition of "busy". You can say that ATL doesn't have as many international to international connections and that is fine. Of course, the U.S. passenger market is the largest in the world, so one would expect it to be more heavily domestic in nature.
And, of course, ATL also has more aircraft movements than any other airport on Earth. So it is #1 using the two primary metrics. Passengers and aircraft movements.
The fact is, no matter how much you may not like the definitions, they are well-accepted around the world. IATA and ACI are the groups that provide the rankings. Neither is based in the U.S.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 128):
Back in March they said they'd reduce Transatlantic and Transpacific by 10-12%, and yesterday they announced additional cuts of up to 20%. The Transatlantic cuts they've made so far plus yesterday's get them to about 10% down YOY--if they're curring 20% they need to double the cuts. TPAC is even worse--yesterday's announcement plus all the other adjustments they've made get them to about halfway to their March goal, never mind yesterday's increased target. Anyone can confirm?
Mav, its pretty convoluted, but I think that these might be it for the international. I'll try to get a better sense. Given the shifting base and the constant adjustments, its hard to get a handle . I think you may be misinterpreting something here. I don't think they are cutting 20%.
MasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 4503 posts, RR: 8 Reply 131, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 17190 times:
I know this is the conventional a.net wisdom, but I suspect that, if they indeed are paid for, it's only because nobody will lend any money on them. Think of them as aluminum futures. Still, this makes almost all their costs variable, and that counts in the short-haul circumstances cited - up to a point.
The advantage of DC-9's worthlessness is DL won't incur much of a write-off when they are finally scrapped. This isn't true of the 763's, which HAVE to be flown; parking them would be more expensive - which is why DL was forced into their post-bankruptcy, high-risk international expansion. It was a brilliant attempt and almost worked - still might, if DL can get over this 1-2 year bump in the road.
How the 763's are redeployed will be interesting to watch.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 132, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 17112 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 130): Mav, its pretty convoluted, but I think that these might be it for the international. I'll try to get a better sense. Given the shifting base and the constant adjustments, its hard to get a handle . I think you may be misinterpreting something here. I don't think they are cutting 20%.
Some clarity would be helpful--their presentation says Fall 2009 will be down 10% YOY systemwide with transatlantic down 20%. If that is the case they need to double their announced cuts for both Transatlantic and Transpacific.
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 4878 posts, RR: 8 Reply 133, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 17066 times:
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 131): Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 115):
The DC9's, as they are long-since paid for,
I know this is the conventional a.net wisdom, but I suspect that, if they indeed are paid for, it's only because nobody will lend any money on them
They are paid for but I believe they are collateral for a loan NW took out just before the merger finalized.
MasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 4503 posts, RR: 8 Reply 134, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16979 times:
Quoting United1 (Reply 133): They are paid for but I believe they are collateral for a loan NW took out just before the merger finalized.
Which to me means they are not paid for. Last earnings conf. call, I believe Bastian said everything of value was hocked.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 28 Reply 135, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 16807 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 124): Sure you can. There are others on here that are just as adamant about their favorite airline being the best, but they never seem to get abused like DL does.
I'm sure you're correct, Mayor. Nonetheless, in countless Delta threads, one person seemed to bring out the vitriol of many. Certainly to a far greater extent than would have otherwise existed. I just think it's a very large stretch to suggest that there is no foundation for the aspersions cast at Delta on this board.
Anyhoo, I certainly think Delta is doing a lot of things right at the moment, and as long as the one-man band doesn't show up, I think the high quality of posts by folks such as yourself, Jetlanta, and Alitalia744 will more than keep the thread in a positive form.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 136, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 16742 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 135): I'm sure you're correct, Mayor. Nonetheless, in countless Delta threads, one person seemed to bring out the vitriol of many. Certainly to a far greater extent than would have otherwise existed. I just think it's a very large stretch to suggest that there is no foundation for the aspersions cast at Delta on this board.
Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that they don't want to think he could be correct, in most cases? Otherwise, there are many CO fanboys on here, too, that seem to think that CO is the best thing since sliced bread. And don't even get me started on the WN fanboys.
There is another DL fanboy on here that rubs me the wrong way because he's just a wannabe and in most cases he's much worse than and does more harm than good compared to the one you refer to.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 28 Reply 137, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 16675 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 136): Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that they don't want to think he could be correct, in most cases? Otherwise, there are many CO fanboys on here, too, that seem to think that CO is the best thing since sliced bread. And don't even get me started on the WN fanboys.
There is another DL fanboy on here that rubs me the wrong way because he's just a wannabe and in most cases he's much worse than and does more harm than good compared to the one you refer to.
Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you, per se. But I can only speak for myself, and I have no emotion one way or the other about Delta. Yet time after time, this person's approach has been so counterproductive, condescending, and egotistical that he created the environment where people wanted to see him fall on his face. Unfortunately, Delta and those who care about it have been caught in the middle.
With him, I always said 'it's not the message, it's the messenger'. And since he takes pride in being that way, I doubt much is going to change.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 138, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16342 times:
Quoting Cba (Reply 27): ATL remains the domestic super hub, and serves Europe and LatAm
ATL made the most sense as a gateway to Asia for DL because it can connect Asia to Latin America and because of the huge amount of feed that ATL has domestically.
Of course, the other side of the coin is that DL could and probably will add new spokes to DTW to make Asian routes even more viable.
ICN will be back from other DL gateways...and China routes will be reworked. The idea that anyone is doing anything wrong by failing to start a China route since every US carrier has at least one route that they have not started or fully ramped up on a year round basis. Even those carriers that are operating China routes daily during this summer do not necessarily have what it takes to make new routes work elsewhere on their system. Further, there are new China routes that will be available very soon... the supply of China authority is very much in balance with demand for the next several years at least.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 55): Absent a dramatic shift in travel that sees the need to re-start these routes during the slowest travel period of the year, Delta will once again request dormancy waiver extensions to spring 2011 for routes they would like to resume.
possibly, but there are other carriers that have not started routes that were awarded and those carriers have made no firm plans to start their routes either.
Quoting Panamair (Reply 56): Basically, it's time for others to consume more and for the U.S. to actually produce and save more...
Absolutely.... but the global economy is still heavily driven by US consumerism. As jobs are lost in the US, those countires must find new ways to grow their economies. It will happen but it will take a whole lot longer if the US is not helping to push the growth.
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 60):
Cuts, cuts, cuts. It's getting old to hear. At least they're coming almost entirely from the DL side and not the NW side.
guess you forget about DTW-KIX among others. We also haven't heard about the inevitable downgrades and capacity reductions out of NW hubs... NW's route system just doesn't have the number of int'l routes DL has nor has NW taken the risk in starting new routes in recent years.
Despite what you think, DL is not playing DL vs NW - they are doing what is best for the whole company.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 78): Very true. But even BRICs are getting in trouble. I see only a few bigger markets with ability to recover faster: China, Brazil and India.
China's economy is too heavily based on consumer driven spending in the US and Europe to think they will pull the global economy forward. If China decides to start spending money increasing its own standard of living, things could loosen up... but indications are that the Chinese gov't is not terribly interested in doing that.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 84): What has also changed is Delta's ability to adapt. It's new network structure gives it flexibility to cut, while still maintaining a footprint. CO has that in the sense that many of its EWR markets are double-daily. They can reduce frequency without damaging the network.
Delta doesn't serve as many O&D's with more than daily service, but they do operate many markets from multiple gateways. So the destination doesn't necessarily disappear.
Absolutely.... other airlines simply don't have the network mass to cut much other than frequencies at this point, CO from EWR included.
Keep in mind that these types of reductions are exactly what you expect to see preparing to go into the fall in a downturn. The real indication of what the future will look like will be in six months or less when the summer schedules for 2010 are announced. We could well see new routes based on the strengths of the combined DL/NW route system and new routes that better connect the two systems.
Stay tuned also to announcements or leaks about what aircraft are in/out of the fleet are the timeframes for how long they will be parked. This could be an ideal time to cut the 744 fleet in favor of 777s on hand or some of the 767s could be parked for the winter only to reappear in the spring to start new routes, perhaps to support new growth across the Pacific.
As with everything in life, the picture is constantly changing and what we see now could look very different in a year.... not just for DL but for a whole lot of the rest of the industry.
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 139, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 15931 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 138): ATL made the most sense as a gateway to Asia for DL because it can connect Asia to Latin America and because of the huge amount of feed that ATL has domestically.
With DTW now in the picture, ATL no longer makes sense as the Transpac gateway. DL has obviously realized this with the latest cuts (ATL is only left with one flight to Asia come October). Good for DL. They realized what they bought and whats best to put where. DTW makes much more sense as an Asia gateway.
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
Surfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 140, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15724 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 138): Stay tuned also to announcements or leaks about what aircraft are in/out of the fleet are the timeframes for how long they will be parked. This could be an ideal time to cut the 744 fleet in favor of 777s on hand or some of the 767s could be parked for the winter only to reappear in the spring to start new routes, perhaps to support new growth across the Pacific.
Cuts seem to be the mantra of this merger regardless of what was said to get the merger approved. Most saw the writing on the wall. No real attempts to fill out the route structure, just cut, cut, cut, and open the door for the competition..........as usual.
Avconsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 141, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15594 times:
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 107): I swear, DL did not plan this what so ever. It is that new airline the KCAB brought into CVG. Those B1900s that fly to Somerset, KY are scaring DL out of CVG.
LOL, has that service started?
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 123): n A319 (roughly the same capacity as a DC-9) could fly the short haul DC-9 routes such as DTW-ORD or MSP-MKE, but also the likes of MSP-MIA, DTW-SAN, etc. In fact, I think even the CRJ-900 and ERJ-175 can fly further than the DC-9...am I wrong?
Two things,
1) you would not want to waste the A-319 on a short haul given its mission capability.
2) someone will confirm or correct me. DL collective bargaining agreement requires a percentage of flights to be flown by mainline aircraft. THE CRJ-900 & ERJ's are not mainline.
Cospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1356 posts, RR: 0 Reply 142, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15600 times:
They need to better use the 767-300's we have one flies NRT-GUM sits about 11 Hours and Back GUM-NRT !?!?? flight time each way is about 3:30
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5672 posts, RR: 9 Reply 143, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15223 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 140): Cuts seem to be the mantra of this merger regardless of what was said to get the merger approved. Most saw the writing on the wall. No real attempts to fill out the route structure, just cut, cut, cut, and open the door for the competition..........as usual.
You don't suppose that the world economic crisis, or the flu have had anything to do with the cutbacks do you? Are you suggesting that DL has had more severe cutbacks than other carriers? Funny, I read about the other carriers doing the same thing, and they weren't involved in mergers. I wonder why they are cutting back also?
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 144, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15228 times:
Quoting CRJ200FAGuy (Reply 105): How about inferior aircraft like the 767? Why do Deltoids want to get rid of the 9 so fast? It's paid for and does it's job.
Are you crazy? Getting rid of the 9s wouldn't hurt the system as much as getting rid of the 767s. What do you propose to do to replace them on the int'l routes? Maybe, once they actually start receiving the 787s, they can do that, but not before. And, BTW, what makes the 767 inferior, in your mind and compared to what?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 145, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15197 times:
I posted this on the OAG change thread, but I can't find any non stop flights from CID-ATL and CID-CVG after August on Delta.com. Please tell me those aren't being cut!?
AVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 611 posts, RR: 1 Reply 146, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15177 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 138): ATL made the most sense as a gateway to Asia for DL because it can connect Asia to Latin America and because of the huge amount of feed that ATL has domestically.
Of course, the other side of the coin is that DL could and probably will add new spokes to DTW to make Asian routes even more viable.
How much connecting traffic has there been for DL through ATL for Asia going to Latin America and vice versa? Or did the world economy scuttle much of that before it had a chance to get started?
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 147, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15163 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 136): Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that they don't want to think he could be correct, in most cases?
Actually no, I don't think it's that at all and certainly not to me anyhow......as in another members case I have absolutely no specific feelings for DL either way. In my opinion it's more to do with the majority of related threads being deliberately, and systematically, manipulated and at times downright falsified just to feed ego. Indeed, a thread on DL can't seem to exist without himself turning it into a bash on every other airline. There's absolutely no need for any of it but, as I say, it's an obvious ego thing.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 138): ATL made the most sense as a gateway to Asia for DL because it can connect Asia to Latin America and because of the huge amount of feed that ATL has domestically.
Of course, the other side of the coin is that DL could and probably will add new spokes to DTW to make Asian routes even more viable.
How does it make most sense to have a hub for Asia in the SE US? From your comments I read you as saying that basically without ATL DL have nothing much. If DL didn't deliberately put everything through ATL would it still make most sense?
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 148, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 15080 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 147): Indeed, a thread on DL can't seem to exist without himself turning it into a bash on every other airline. There's absolutely no need for any of it but, as I say, it's an obvious ego thing.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 137): Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you, per se. But I can only speak for myself, and I have no emotion one way or the other about Delta. Yet time after time, this person's approach has been so counterproductive, condescending, and egotistical that he created the environment where people wanted to see him fall on his face. Unfortunately, Delta and those who care about it have been caught in the middle.
With him, I always said 'it's not the message, it's the messenger'. And since he takes pride in being that way, I doubt much is going to change.
Apparently, you didn't take the time to read post #138. I cannot find on it, any what you say above, even though, apparently, in your eyes, he does it on every thread. Could it be that as soon as you see who the post is by, your past notions of what he says is coloring what you see? Just asking?
Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 111): Market value is probably the best measure ( I think SQ succeeds in that one), followed by revenue (KLM-AF), and then passenger-kilometers-flown (anybody?).
Apparently, neither ICAO or IATA don't agree with you. Why don't you contact them and bring the error of their ways to their attention??
BTW, I remember, several years ago, that BA had a campaign as "The World's Favourite Airline" even though DL boarded more passengers than did BA. Wonder how that happened?
To say that ATL is not a "world hub" because it's placed too far south, what does that make MIA? IAH is farther south than ATL, does that make them not viable as a "world hub"? Are only hubs that are north of a certain point eligible to be that? What IS your criteria?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
BinMonster From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 215 posts, RR: 0 Reply 149, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 15050 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 145): I posted this on the OAG change thread, but I can't find any non stop flights from CID-ATL and CID-CVG after August on Delta.com. Please tell me those aren't being cut!?
Discontinuation of ATL – AVP/CID effective 18Aug
Discontinuation of CVG – CID effective 18Aug
NWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3161 posts, RR: 8 Reply 150, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14952 times:
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 60): Cuts, cuts, cuts. It's getting old to hear. At least they're coming almost entirely from the DL side and not the NW side.
I hear you, but I think we've had our share too. What about the freighters? What about the Airlink flights that have moved over to DCI carriers? Or flights like SEA-OGG that are now on DL metal? PDX-NRT? PDX-AMS? EWR-AMS?
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 139): With DTW now in the picture, ATL no longer makes sense as the Transpac gateway. DL has obviously realized this with the latest cuts (ATL is only left with one flight to Asia come October). Good for DL. They realized what they bought and whats best to put where. DTW makes much more sense as an Asia gateway.
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 147): How does it make most sense to have a hub for Asia in the SE US? From your comments I read you as saying that basically without ATL DL have nothing much. If DL didn't deliberately put everything through ATL would it still make most sense?
AirNZ,
I'm clearly reading post 138 different than you, but what I got from it was the assertion that ATL once *made* sense as an Asian gateway, but now DTW is equally-if not more-viable, especially in regards to connecting Asia-Latin America....
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 151, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15013 times:
Quoting BinMonster (Reply 149): Discontinuation of ATL – AVP/CID effective 18Aug
Discontinuation of CVG – CID effective 18Aug
I guess the CVG cut is to be expected with as many hits as that hub has been taking. Sad to see it go though as we have had that for 15 years, CVG is so nice to connect thru and seems to have less weather delays, etc.
I am really confused and upset ATL is being cut. We have had this flight for a few years now, the times are great for business trips and connections through the SE US. Losing one destination is bad enough but two? Wow, I can imagine the Eastern Iowa Airport board won't be too happy about losing two destinations, especially ATL. I can't believe they can't make that one work. They restart FSD and keep that but can't keep CID? Sorry for venting. I am a DL/NW loyalist, but this one kinda hurts. So much for the "merger of addition", we pretty much are losing the old Delta and just retaining NW under the DL banner. Losing ATL leaves a really gaping hole for service to the SE. Guess I will have to go back to AA for my future trips to the southeast. I'd rather have one connection thru DFW than a double connect like MSP/ATL, MSP/MEM, DTW/ATL etc. Thanks Delta.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 152, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14960 times:
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 153, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14938 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 148): Apparently, you didn't take the time to read post #138. I cannot find on it, any what you say above, even though, apparently, in your eyes, he does it on every thread. Could it be that as soon as you see who the post is by, your past notions of what he says is coloring what you see? Just asking?
Actually no Mayor, not at all. I was giving you as what I saw the reason to be in general and not linked to either this, or any specific, thread in particular. Indeed, I clearly said " it seems like every thread...." . No, it's not colouring anything for me at all, nor do I have an inborn problem with it because, as I said, I have no feelings for DL one way or the other. I can certainly see though how many find it arrogant and very off-putting.
I'm clearly reading post 138 different than you, but what I got from it was the assertion that ATL once *made* sense as an Asian gateway, but now DTW is equally-if not more-viable, especially in regards to connecting Asia-Latin America....
That could indeed be, and I've certainly no problem at all if I've read it incorrectly. I can absolutely see DTW being a much more logical, and viable, hub for Asia. What I was mean more in that regard was with ATL being in the SE, would a more sensible Asia hub not have been in the west? Oh! I fully understand DL can't seem to make LAX work but just figured surely effort into a western hub would have always made 'more sense' than ATL....other, of course, than because everything is deliberately put through ATL.
Luckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1405 posts, RR: 0 Reply 154, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14913 times:
Quoting NWAESC (Reply 150): Or flights like SEA-OGG that are now on DL metal? PDX-NRT? PDX-AMS? EWR-AMS?
These routes are still being flown are they not? It is arguable that the A330's had/have a nicer product than DL's 767s, but wouldn't you rather have service on a "substandard" aircraft than no service at all or fewer options?
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 155, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14892 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 152): Well, I'm SURE that DL did that deliberately to inconvenience you and were just waiting for the economy to tank to do it.
well OBVIOUSLY I know they didn't just do that to me but its frustrating none the less, and I know several people who travel this flight for business who will probably feel the same way. They just restarted FSD-ATL and keep that, but cancel this flight? The flight did well even in the high oil prices. Sorry if I vent my frustration.....just sucks to lose two non stop destinations at the same time, when I was really looking forward to this merger for bringing enhanced service.
NWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3161 posts, RR: 8 Reply 156, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14870 times:
Quoting Luckyone (Reply 154): These routes are still being flown are they not? It is arguable that the A330's had/have a nicer product than DL's 767s, but wouldn't you rather have service on a "substandard" aircraft than no service at all or fewer options?
Yes they are. I was commenting on another poster's assertion that all cuts were from the DL side specifically, when we at NW have had our share of flying lost.
BTW, please don't include me in the "767 sucks" crowd. I am an absolute fan of the A330, but my worry about the 767 is with cargo, and not IFE like a lot of others on here.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
Coalways From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0 Reply 157, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14863 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 151): So much for the "merger of addition", we pretty much are losing the old Delta and just retaining NW under the DL banner
That what are merger is for to cut whats not needed there probably be more cuts to come.
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 153): Oh! I fully understand DL can't seem to make LAX work
Wonder when SYD is going to be cut, I would have thought it would be in the first round of cuts.
Luckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1405 posts, RR: 0 Reply 158, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14844 times:
Quoting NWAESC (Reply 156): BTW, please don't include me in the "767 sucks" crowd. I am an absolute fan of the A330, but my worry about the 767 is with cargo, and not IFE like a lot of others on here.
That wasn't my intention, my apologies. Personally I find that argument tiresome and even pretentious. I mean really, most people are more concerned about getting there, and what does it say about your mental capacity if you can't sit in a seat for a few hours and read, or just talk? Why do you have to be passively entertained for the whole flight?
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 159, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14805 times:
Quoting Coalways (Reply 157): That what are merger is for to cut whats not needed there probably be more cuts to come.
you're right. Guess I am not going to drink the Delta kool-aid anymore lol
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 160, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14796 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 155): well OBVIOUSLY I know they didn't just do that to me but its frustrating none the less, and I know several people who travel this flight for business who will probably feel the same way. They just restarted FSD-ATL and keep that, but cancel this flight? The flight did well even in the high oil prices. Sorry if I vent my frustration.....just sucks to lose two non stop destinations at the same time, when I was really looking forward to this merger for bringing enhanced service.
Well, maybe you'll get your service back, once the economy improves. At least they haven't closed CID, completely. Just scaling back and when the time comes when it's viable, again. I wouldn't be surprised to see it come back.I can understand your frustration, but I'd rather have them cut a few routes, now and save some money instead of running a full schedule on a full route system and have to go back into BK because they weren't prudent with their route system.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
OOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1288 posts, RR: 2 Reply 161, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14783 times:
Has any airline in the U.S. cut as much capacity as Delta?
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 162, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14770 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 160): Well, maybe you'll get your service back, once the economy improves. At least they haven't closed CID, completely. Just scaling back and when the time comes when it's viable, again. I wouldn't be surprised to see it come back.I can understand your frustration, but I'd rather have them cut a few routes, now and save some money instead of running a full schedule on a full route system and have to go back into BK because they weren't prudent with their route system
I hope your right Mayor, I would think if the situation improves ATL will be back for sure, I always thought it did well. For now guess I will just have to suck it up and deal with it.
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 163, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14780 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 143): or the flu have had anything to do with the cutbacks do you?
I believe that the economic crisis may have played a part in DL's cutbacks to Asia, however I think the flu is an excuse. ATL isnt a huge gateway to Mexico so feed for ATL-PVG/ICN wouldnt have been much of an issue. In a good economy Im sure DL would have been fine doing ATL-ICN in addition to KE, however I think ATL-PVG would have flopped no matter what.
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4910 posts, RR: 21 Reply 164, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14740 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 147): How does it make most sense to have a hub for Asia in the SE US? From your comments I read you as saying that basically without ATL DL have nothing much. If DL didn't deliberately put everything through ATL would it still make most sense?
Pre merger, which other hub was DL going to try to build up as an Asia hub. CVG? No, SLC? No, JFK? Perhaps but they were still busy trying to build up JFK and the TATL side of things. Prior to the merger it absolutely did make the most sense to use ATL as the Asia hub given the size of the hub and number of flights going in and out of there on a daily basis.
Jetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2759 posts, RR: 29 Reply 165, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14633 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 163):
I believe that the economic crisis may have played a part in DL's cutbacks to Asia, however I think the flu is an excuse.
You are wrong. Point of Sale Asia traffic has been DEVASTATED by H1N1.
Nwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3161 posts, RR: 8 Reply 166, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14548 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 165): You are wrong. Point of Sale Asia traffic has been DEVASTATED by H1N1.
How so? Or more specifically, by how much are they off?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 167, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14521 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 140): Cuts seem to be the mantra of this merger regardless of what was said to get the merger approved. Most saw the writing on the wall. No real attempts to fill out the route structure, just cut, cut, cut, and open the door for the competition..........as usual.
And which competitors are adding capacity to ICN/PVG/FRA/LGW....?
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 146): How much connecting traffic has there been for DL through ATL for Asia going to Latin America and vice versa?
Because it does not have to be reported to the DOT, it is "off the books". Those who have are in the know are well aware of how much traffic DL carried from the US to Latin America, esp. Japan to GRU and LIM, and that proportionately, DL/NW combined are increasing their presence in these markets. Not surprisingly, DTW is one of the best served cities to Japan in the interior US.
Quoting NWAESC (Reply 150): DTW is equally-if not more-viable, especially in regards to connecting Asia-Latin America....
...validating that it might make a whole lot more sense to put in a few DTW-LatinAm flights to build on the flows that DL has already developed instead of flying transpac aircraft another hour further to ATL in order to tap into DL's Latin network. As you well know, LatAm is a region NW did not touch. DL can bring the Asian and Latin networks together where they make sense in lots of different ways. DTW might make alot of sense not only for Asia-LatAm flows but for a number of other ethnic market which DL has or might develop.
Quoting OOer (Reply 161): Has any airline in the U.S. cut as much capacity as Delta?
Has any airline in the US added as much int'l capacity prior to this downturn?
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 168, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14501 times:
Quoting NWAESC (Reply 156): BTW, please don't include me in the "767 sucks" crowd. I am an absolute fan of the A330, but my worry about the 767 is with cargo, and not IFE like a lot of others on here.
The 763 and 4 is capable of carrying plenty of cargo on the appropriate length routes; AA and DL have easily carried 50-60K of cargo out of S. America on 4500 mile flights. My question is how DL will maintain efficient operations by mixing 767s and 330s/777s/744s in a hub operation such as at NRT.
Nwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3161 posts, RR: 8 Reply 169, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14406 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 168): My question is how DL will maintain efficient operations by mixing 767s and 330s/777s/744s in a hub operation such as at NRT.
Precisely what I was driving at... Shoulda been more clear.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 28 Reply 170, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14326 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 148): Apparently, you didn't take the time to read post #138. I
Apparently not, since my post was #137.
But if you are going to make this a ridiculous all-or-nothing type of argument, then there's nothing more to talk about.
Quoting Mayor (Reply 148): Could it be that as soon as you see who the post is by, your past notions of what he says is coloring what you see? Just asking?
Mayor, with all due respect, I've personally had enough interaction with this person on a.net that I don't feel the need to explain my feelings to you or anyone else. And frankly, perhaps it's you who are glazing over his tone when you see what carrier he's talking about.
Do I really think that? Not necessarily. But I'm not going to let you turn this into something it's not just because you don't like what I have to say.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 171, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14277 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 170): Mayor, with all due respect, I've personally had enough interaction with this person on a.net that I don't feel the need to explain my feelings to you or anyone else. And frankly, perhaps it's you who are glazing over his tone when you see what carrier he's talking about.
Do I really think that? Not necessarily. But I'm not going to let you turn this into something it's not just because you don't like what I have to say.
Apparently, you can state that you don't like what I have to say, but I can't. That's ok, because I honestly think that your dealings with this person in the past, while they may not have been good (I'm not denying that it could have been that way) have possible colored what you see when he posts today. I haven't been on here long enough and seen that much from him that would make me think what he says is anything but possible fact.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 28 Reply 172, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14227 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 171): Apparently, you can state that you don't like what I have to say, but I can't
I welcome you to say how you feel. But please don't try to twist my motivations to match yours. I am quite capable of calling a spade a spade without there being any underlying agenda.
Quoting Mayor (Reply 171): That's ok, because I honestly think that your dealings with this person in the past, while they may not have been good (I'm not denying that it could have been that way) have possible colored what you see when he posts today.
I think we've gotten ahead of ourselves in this conversation, and I really don't think it's intentional, but let me clarify two things:
1. I NEVER said in this thread that he was making improper statements IN THIS THREAD. I don't think he had even entered this thread when I referenced him. Instead, others made generic jabs that I know were directed at previous comments that he had made, and I just was sharing why they might feel that way.
2. I don't necessarily disagree with everything he says, and frankly I'm not knowledgable enough about Delta to really have an opinion on many things. Having said that, just being right sometimes doesn't make it ok to talk down to people the way he has, and his "I am right. Period." attitude doesn't play well with many people, whether or not he is right. And I won't even get into statements that he makes that are futuristic ponderings and, if they come to be he claims credit for, while if they don't he points to outside influences. Oye.
Anyhow, Mayor, I really don't have a quarrel with you, per se. It is very clear, though, that there is one person in the Delta camp who pushes many peoples buttons needlessly.
OOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1288 posts, RR: 2 Reply 173, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14054 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 167): Quoting OOer (Reply 161):
Has any airline in the U.S. cut as much capacity as Delta?
Has any airline in the US added as much int'l capacity prior to this downturn?
So you're going to try and answer my question with another question?
Delta simply shifted capacity from domestic to international, overall capacity is down 10% in 2008 pending any more reductions.
So once again...
Has any airline in the U.S. cut as much capacity as Delta?
Surfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 174, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14044 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 167): And which competitors are adding capacity to ICN/PVG/FRA/LGW....?
I guess my frustration comes from the same tired strategies that keep this industry on a rollercoaster. The public wants a good, reliable product at a descent price. They want Costco. We have the Walmart Airlines already. Why not take the opportunity to redeploy those assets back to the domestic market, upguage routes that are flying full, remove RJs from the system, start a descent West Coast operation, etc.
Cutting to seats to raise yields in the domestic market is a tired strategy that historically has resulted in a windfall for the competition. How about instead of being sent to the desert, DLs big jets fly domestic routes again. Low CASMs to allow the lower ticket prices the public wants while we make some money with value added on-board items and actually offer a first class that those who can afford it want to pay for. Leverage the fact that you can put large equipment up against others who don't have the option. You may actually increase the potential market. Cut seats to try and preserve yields in a recession? Hello SWA, Air Tran, and Jet Blue, and VA. Standing by for incoming .
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 175, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14016 times:
Quoting OOer (Reply 173): Has any airline in the U.S. cut as much capacity as Delta?
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5672 posts, RR: 9 Reply 176, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13699 times:
Quoting OOer (Reply 173): Has any airline in the U.S. cut as much capacity as Delta?
Per message 175 four carriers have cut more capacity than DL. I applaud the carriers that are cutting capacity, as that appears to be the smart thing to do in this economy, don''t you agree?
BA744PHX From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 177, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13654 times:
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 178, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13533 times:
Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 174): How about instead of being sent to the desert, DLs big jets fly domestic routes again. Low CASMs to allow the lower ticket prices the public wants while we make some money with value added on-board items and actually offer a first class that those who can afford it want to pay for. Leverage the fact that you can put large equipment up against others who don't have the option. You may actually increase the potential market.
I like that idea....I hate that we have become so dependent on RJ's for everything. I take my hometown airport CID for an example. As recent as the beginning of the decade we had 8 daily flights to STL on TWA, all were mainline a mix of M80 and DC9. NWA had at least 3 mainline DC9's (and recently E75 or CR9's) up to MSP. DL's new schedule this fall will consist of only 4 CRJs to MSP and 3 CRJ's to DTW. ATL and CVG get completely axed. 7 daily flights by the worlds largest airline, where as NW before had 7-8 flights to MSP alone with a mixture of mainline and rj's/saabs. That's quite a capacity reduction, and certainly not a way to help gain market share. I am puzzled that now with the DC9's in hand they didn't maybe throw some ATL flights that way from here or other midwest cities. In our market it doesn't seem like they want to be competitive. No wonder Allegiant has become so puplar here at CID and other similar markets.
Luckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1405 posts, RR: 0 Reply 179, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13355 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 178): I like that idea....I hate that we have become so dependent on RJ's for everything. I take my hometown airport CID for an example. As recent as the beginning of the decade we had 8 daily flights to STL on TWA, all were mainline a mix of M80 and DC9. NWA had at least 3 mainline DC9's (and recently E75 or CR9's) up to MSP. DL's new schedule this fall will consist of only 4 CRJs to MSP and 3 CRJ's to DTW. ATL and CVG get completely axed. 7 daily flights by the worlds largest airline, where as NW before had 7-8 flights to MSP alone with a mixture of mainline and rj's/saabs. That's quite a capacity reduction, and certainly not a way to help gain market share. I am puzzled that now with the DC9's in hand they didn't maybe throw some ATL flights that way from here or other midwest cities. In our market it doesn't seem like they want to be competitive. No wonder Allegiant has become so puplar here at CID and other similar markets.
Perhaps when Delta crunched the numbers they found it was better for their bottom line to route those passengers through DTW and MSP based on where the majority of those passengers are going. Yes, it does seem odd that there isn't just ONE flight to the uber-hub at ATL, but unlike the South, those in the Midwest shouldn't have to change planes in Atlanta to get to heaven....
I don't know if I would use Allegiant as a valid comparison. They serve almost exclusively leisure traffic, while the majors supposedly want the business traffic. So, maybe they found the business traffic only warranted three daily flights, who knows. I certainly don't because I haven't seen their balance sheet!
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 180, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13227 times:
Quoting Luckyone (Reply 179): Perhaps when Delta crunched the numbers they found it was better for their bottom line to route those passengers through DTW and MSP based on where the majority of those passengers are going. Yes, it does seem odd that there isn't just ONE flight to the uber-hub at ATL, but unlike the South, those in the Midwest shouldn't have to change planes in Atlanta to get to heaven....
I think thats where the synergy of the merger steps in. DL is realizing that they wont have route everything through ATL. Now that they have hubs in DTW and MSP, they will be canidates for service that didnt quite make sense from ATL (sans the connections). For people in CID for example, DTW is more convenient for getting to most places as opposed to ATL. Although I do agree it does seem strange that they dont leave one flight to ATL from CID.
ATL-PVG is a perfect example of this. It didnt work from ATL, but now that they have DTW, it doesnt have to work from ATL. They can still serve the market though DTW with a better located hub for flights to Asia. I think DTW will be the prime canidate for future service to Asia.
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 3850 posts, RR: 20 Reply 181, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13214 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 167): And which competitors are adding capacity to ICN/PVG/FRA/LGW....?
CO is adding capacity to FRA with the start of IAH-FRA later this year, and has of course managed to move its entire London operation to Heathrow (and will benefit from cooperation with the JV carriers + bmi there in the years to come).
Asia is taking a hit all around, this is true. That said, the vision of Delta leveraging NWA's existing Asia strengths to build something rivalling DL's European ops in scale just isn't going to happen. Much of DL's expansion efforts into the Far East over the past 2 years has basically failed -- I invite you or anyone else to hold out hope that they will make SGN work, but the lack of 5th freedom traffic on the route will likely result in a swift demise.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 19516 posts, RR: 18 Reply 182, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13096 times:
How much less efficient is a fleet of 80 737NGs and 180 32x's than a fleet of 180 737NGs or 180 32x's? The answer is not much...
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 123): A good point, but remember those more costly Airbus and Boeing aircraft can fly a heck of a lot further than the DC-9s....
But they don't need the 319's legs for DTW-MBS or MSP-FSD.
Quoting Tinpusher007 (Reply 126): The E175 has a range approaching 2,000NM and the CR9 about 1,800NM or so. I asked a DC-9 capt how much range they could get out of it and his response was about 1,500NM.
The useful range of the -9 is nowhere near 1500 nm, especially in the summer. They are rarely, if ever, used on routes exceeding 1000nm (e.g. MSP-JAX).
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 151): Losing ATL leaves a really gaping hole for service to the SE. Guess I will have to go back to AA for my future trips to the southeast. I'd rather have one connection thru DFW than a double connect like MSP/ATL, MSP/MEM, DTW/ATL etc. Thanks Delta.
When you say "the southeast," what do you mean?
BHM? It's served from MSP and DTW.
MSY? Ditto.
JAX? Same
CLT? Same
RIC? Same
Most cities in the southeast have as much or more service from MSP/DTW as from ORD/DFW.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 167): Because it does not have to be reported to the DOT, it is "off the books". Those who have are in the know are well aware of how much traffic DL carried from the US to Latin America, esp. Japan to GRU and LIM, and that proportionately, DL/NW combined are increasing their presence in these markets. Not surprisingly, DTW is one of the best served cities to Japan in the interior US.
By rationalizing the Asia schedule as it has, DL has done something really smart: it has, for the most part, used ATL for Latin America-Asia itineraries where the one-stop service is necessary because someone else flies the route one-stop (through IAD, DFW, ORD, or IAH). SCL-PVG is no longer possible one-stop, but it's also not possible one-stop on any competitor. That means DL isn't at a disadvantage. In contrast, all kinds of carriers offer EZE-NRT one-stop, and DL continues to offer that.
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 183, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13004 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 182): When you say "the southeast," what do you mean?
BHM? It's served from MSP and DTW.
MSY? Ditto.
JAX? Same
CLT? Same
RIC? Same
I would imagine hes talking about cities like: MGM, LCH, BTR, MOB, GPT, PNS, VPS, etc. Those are cities that DFW and ATL serve, but not DTW or MSP. Nonetheless I dont know how much traffic is between Iowa and those cities.
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 184, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12973 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 182): Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 151):
Losing ATL leaves a really gaping hole for service to the SE. Guess I will have to go back to AA for my future trips to the southeast. I'd rather have one connection thru DFW than a double connect like MSP/ATL, MSP/MEM, DTW/ATL etc. Thanks Delta.
When you say "the southeast," what do you mean?
BHM? It's served from MSP and DTW.
MSY? Ditto.
JAX? Same
CLT? Same
RIC? Same
Most cities in the southeast have as much or more service from MSP/DTW as from ORD/DFW.
Well for me personally its PNS as I fly there often. Off the top of my head also MOB, GPT, VPS, PFN, TLH, MGM, CSG, VLD, GNV, Augusta , DAB, DHN, PIB, EWN, ILM, PHF, SRQ, EYW, TUP etc. Plus the extra connections and more direct routings to the larger cities in the SE too (like JAX, MCO, TPA. MIA etc), not to mention ATL's large international/transatlantic network and flights to the Carribbean and South America. My biggest problem with NW was that they always seemed to be backtracking to MSP to fly to the south (we have never had a flight to the MEM hub). Here at CID Rockwell International is the cities top employer and they have a a major presence at MLB, ATL is really the only connection that is viable to MLB. Atlanta in itself is a major O & D airport, DL's largest hub and world largest/busiest airport hub, which in itself should be enough to warrant the one daily flight (at one point before oil went sky high we had 2 daily flights). Its also nice to have at least one "warm weather" hub in the winter time to conenct to. I always liked the fact that if I could at least get out of CID on my way to ATL I could avoid any potential snow/ice issues at MSP, DTW etc. CID appears to be the only airport losing its ATL service at this time, which in itself seems odd ot me, especially when they are just trying FSD for the second time around and also LNK. Nearby airports like DSM, MLI and MSN are keeping their ATL flights and also have MEM service. Just seems odd to me that CID, which brings in many passengers (we topped a million a couple years back), would have that much difference of a service pattern for DL.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 19516 posts, RR: 18 Reply 185, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12939 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 183): Those are cities that DFW and ATL serve, but not DTW or MSP. Nonetheless I dont know how much traffic is between Iowa and those cities.
That was exactly my point. All of the largest cities in the southeast are still well-served ex-CID.
Luckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1405 posts, RR: 0 Reply 186, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12919 times:
Honestly there is little sense in flying to Augusta from Atlanta. It's a straight shot across I-20 from the airport. Yeah it's a 3 hour drive. But when you factor in the inevitable delays at ATL, plus having to wait, it evens out.
Jetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2759 posts, RR: 29 Reply 187, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 12611 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 180):
I think thats where the synergy of the merger steps in. DL is realizing that they wont have route everything through ATL. Now that they have hubs in DTW and MSP, they will be canidates for service that didnt quite make sense from ATL (sans the connections). For people in CID for example, DTW is more convenient for getting to most places as opposed to ATL. Although I do agree it does seem strange that they dont leave one flight to ATL from CID.
LAX, my only quibble with what you say here is that Delta isn't just "realizing" this. They knew all along that this would be one of the merger benefits.
Iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3650 posts, RR: 7 Reply 188, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 12595 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 151): Losing one destination is bad enough but two? Wow, I can imagine the Eastern Iowa Airport board won't be too happy about losing two destinations, especially ATL. I can't believe they can't make that one work. They restart FSD and keep that but can't keep CID?
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 178): I am puzzled that now with the DC9's in hand they didn't maybe throw some ATL flights that way from here or other midwest cities. In our market it doesn't seem like they want to be competitive. No wonder Allegiant has become so puplar here at CID and other similar markets.
I am unsurprised to see CVG, but surprised to see ATL cut as well. I'm also surprised FSD-ATL is sticking around. Without MEM, CID has no service to the southeast, as you said. NW is caring less and less about CID, with AA and UA picking up slightly more market share because of this (and G4). At this point, even Saabs to MEM would be nice (long ride I know).
MarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 572 posts, RR: 0 Reply 189, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12573 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 130): And, of course, ATL also has more aircraft movements than any other airport on Earth. So it is #1 using the two primary metrics. Passengers and aircraft movements.
Means absolutely nothing in the context of Atlanta being a world airport, because it simply isn't. It's just hauling huge volumes of domestic cattle (forced xfers by Delta in a geographically disadvantageous location), that's all.
And the last I read, SQ was the largest airline in the world based on market value, and KLM-AF the largest based on revenue.
I don't mean to belabor it - just trying to maintain perspectives.
EXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 190, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12555 times:
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 54): Not the way it used to. Look to China, Europe, and South America to lead the way out of this one.
Europe is in deeper recession than the US right now. South America is a basket case, plus they dont import enough to be an engine of world economic growth. For Europe and China to take over, they have to stop lending money to the USA and instead start their own domestic consumption. China has made some stops in that direction, but not Europe
Centrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 23 Reply 191, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12472 times:
I wonder if DL will move ATL-ICN to DTW-ICN or will KE start ICN-DTW? It is one of the only Skyteam hubs without KE or a flight to KE's hub.
How about DTW-HKG with one of its 777s?
Doesn't DL do some of its maintenance at HKG? Why fly the plane empty when they could just rotate it out there at HKG for maintenance.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
OOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1288 posts, RR: 2 Reply 192, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12429 times:
Quoting Centrair (Reply 191): How about DTW-HKG with one of its 777s?
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4910 posts, RR: 21 Reply 193, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 12275 times:
Quoting OOer (Reply 192): Quoting Centrair (Reply 191):How about DTW-HKG with one of its 777s?
That would require a 777-200LR?
An ER should be able to make DTW-HKG. CO flies EWR-HKG with a 772ER which is just over 200 miles longer than DTW-HKG.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30434 posts, RR: 77 Reply 194, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 12286 times:
Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 177):
It's odd to say but it looks like US policies haven't driven people away as so many here tend to believe.
Naked loadfactor figures tell us nothing.
US Airways has seen a large defection of elite flyers due to reduced value in their FF program. Most people don't care about what airline they fly, however, and just go for the cheap fare. And given US Airways' second and third largest hubs are located in large Southwest markets, no doubt they are offering cheap fares.
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 195, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 12209 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 194): Most people don't care about what airline they fly, however, and just go for the cheap fare
But given the reality of the situation, there's really no reason why the majority of passengers should care which one they fly. At the end of the day, an airline is only method of transportation from A to B and, for the vast majority who are buying their own tickets and aren't picking up freebies there's no real need for perceived 'loyality' to any particular airline.
So, for the vast majority of passengers of course price is going to be a major factor, and who voluntarily wants to pay a lot more for the same thing?
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 196, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12017 times:
Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 189): (forced xfers by Delta in a geographically disadvantageous location), that's all.
But isn't that what any hub is, operated by any airline, anywhere? You make it sound like it's a Delta exclusive.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 197, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12066 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 165): You are wrong. Point of Sale Asia traffic has been DEVASTATED by H1N1.
ATL-ICN/PVG were not canned because of H1N1--they never fundamentally worked. H1N1 of course didn't help the already bad situation.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 167): DL/NW combined are increasing their presence in these markets.
They are flat to down and a shrinking market between Japan and Latin America.
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 198, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11944 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 187): LAX, my only quibble with what you say here is that Delta isn't just "realizing" this. They knew all along that this would be one of the merger benefits.
Haha, maybe I should have said a.net just realized it.
There was always so much talk about how everything was going to be shut down and moved to ATL. That would have defeted the purpose of the merger. Glad to see DL is utilizing the synergy of the merger.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 197): ATL-ICN/PVG were not canned because of H1N1--they never fundamentally worked. H1N1 of course didn't help the already bad situation.
ATL-ICN did ok for a while. In a good economy, I could see ATL-ICN still here. However, blaming ATL-PVG on H1N1 is an excuse. That flight was doomed from the getgo.
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5672 posts, RR: 9 Reply 199, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11831 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10): so why are they cutting that would seem to be moneymakers? I
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 198): There was always so much talk about how everything was going to be shut down and moved to ATL. That would have defeted the purpose of the merger. Glad to see DL is utilizing the synergy of the merger.
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 4878 posts, RR: 8 Reply 200, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11798 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 198): Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 197):
ATL-ICN/PVG were not canned because of H1N1--they never fundamentally worked. H1N1 of course didn't help the already bad situation.
ATL-ICN did ok for a while. In a good economy, I could see ATL-ICN still here. However, blaming ATL-PVG on H1N1 is an excuse. That flight was doomed from the getgo.
Agreed, while traffic took a hit the other major US airline across the Pacific stated that looking forwards booking didn't seem to be affected much by H1N1. I mention this only because I'm sure DL is a similar trend in their bookings....
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30434 posts, RR: 77 Reply 201, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11959 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 195): So, for the vast majority of passengers of course price is going to be a major factor, and who voluntarily wants to pay a lot more for the same thing?
I voluntarily pay a lot more for the same thing since I'm loyal to flying AA and stick to AA. And many others voluntarily pay more for the same thing. And while the actual number of these flyers might only amount to 15-20%, they probably account for as much as 50% of revenue depending on the airline. So it matters. Extremely.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 202, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11591 times:
Quoting Iowaman (Reply 188): I am unsurprised to see CVG, but surprised to see ATL cut as well. I'm also surprised FSD-ATL is sticking around. Without MEM, CID has no service to the southeast, as you said. NW is caring less and less about CID, with AA and UA picking up slightly more market share because of this (and G4). At this point, even Saabs to MEM would be nice (long ride I know).
exactly. I know we have always been a strong market for AA and UA, but NW had a pretty good following here too, and I'm somewhat surprised DL doesn't want t make the effort here it seems. And no one even competes with DL to the Southeast so they pretty much have that all to themselves. This fall we will only have 7 daily flights by Delta, 4 to MSP and 3 to DTW. In comparison, nearby MLI which is our neighbor/competitor will have twice that at 14 dailies: 5x ATL, 2x MEM 4x DTW 3x MSP. In MLI DL competes with AirTran which reduces the fares, CID is higher yielding which puzzles me on the service disparity. I do know that our airport has been in contact with Delta regarding the service changes and hopes to have some good news so I am crossing my fingers.
Papatango From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 491 posts, RR: 0 Reply 203, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11544 times:
If you really believe that I have some ocean front property to sell you in Phoenix!
That's okay. Phoenix is a dump.
Though if you really don't believe what I said, then I just don't know what to say. It's one of the most basic facts about airline revenue. The top 20% of flyers account for around 50% of revenue.
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2581 posts, RR: 7 Reply 205, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11465 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 201): I voluntarily pay a lot more for the same thing since I'm loyal to flying AA and stick to AA. And many others voluntarily pay more for the same thing. And while the actual number of these flyers might only amount to 15-20%, they probably account for as much as 50% of revenue depending on the airline. So it matters. Extremely.
I do this too. All the time. I will never shop around beyond my two airlines of choice (United and Alaska ). Usually schedule is first, then where I am at in securing the next year's status followed by price drives my decision. There is a lot of value to me in maintaining status - shorter security lines, boarding priorities, upgrades, etc. Clearly I am not the only one so our behavior drives yields up.
The majority of the traveling public probably doesn't shop this way, but there is a core of travelers who do.
Luckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1405 posts, RR: 0 Reply 206, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11419 times:
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 205): I do this too. All the time. I will never shop around beyond my two airlines of choice (United and Alaska ). Usually schedule is first, then where I am at in securing the next year's status followed by price drives my decision. There is a lot of value to me in maintaining status - shorter security lines, boarding priorities, upgrades, etc. Clearly I am not the only one so our behavior drives yields up.
The majority of the traveling public probably doesn't shop this way, but there is a core of travelers who do.
While most of the "traveling public" may not, I think that those who travel frequently pick an airline and stick with them. I know that unless I absolutely have to, I will only fly Delta not because WT said so or because their product is the latest and greatest. Please, I'm not that lame! I travel Delta because they offer an obscenely good network that will fit 95% of my travel needs without stopping, and and as a result, at age 23 I've built up a nice FF account that will only improve as I will be traveling a great deal in the future.
I also have some miles with United that I'm going to hang on to as I will be relocating in the next 18 months and don't know where I will end up!
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 207, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11391 times:
Quoting Luckyone (Reply 206): While most of the "traveling public" may not, I think that those who travel frequently pick an airline and stick with them. I know that unless I absolutely have to, I will only fly Delta not because WT said so or because their product is the latest and greatest. Please, I'm not that lame! I travel Delta because they offer an obscenely good network that will fit 95% of my travel needs without stopping, and and as a result, at age 23 I've built up a nice FF account that will only improve as I will be traveling a great deal in the future.
According to your profile, you live in Atlanta. If I lived in Atlanta, I would only fly DL too. If I lived in Houston, I would only fly CO and if I lived in Minnepolis I would only fly NW. Its all about where youre based and who offers the best network.
I too think it all comes down to network and where you can reach nonstop. I live in LA and Im moving to Dallas. Therefore I wont be flying anyone but AA if I can help it. Airlines have to get alot of their traffic that way.
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
COflyerBOS From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 208, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 11345 times:
I am the same way. I live in Boston but travel to Houston at least 25 times a year. CO offers the only non-stop so I am very loyal. I go out of my way connecting in EWR or CLE or even IAH and often pay slightly higher fares. But, in return, CO has been very good to me.
MAH is 100% correct. Airlines know where their bread is buttered...
Skibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0 Reply 209, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11268 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 207): According to your profile, you live in Atlanta. If I lived in Atlanta, I would only fly DL too. If I lived in Houston, I would only fly CO and if I lived in Minnepolis I would only fly NW. Its all about where youre based and who offers the best network.
I too think it all comes down to network and where you can reach nonstop. I live in LA and Im moving to Dallas. Therefore I wont be flying anyone but AA if I can help it. Airlines have to get alot of their traffic that way.
Agreed 100%. I live in Cincinnati, and my loyalty to DL has shrunk proportionately, if not more than the rate of cuts at CVG. Increasingly, I have to connect more and more, so the convenience of non-stop is going the way of the doh doh bird out of CVG. Contrary to the DL advocates on this board, I think their product in non-differentiated to any other US-based airline, and since it is mostly RJs out of CVG, I think DL down right sucks. If there was more mainline out of CVG, the service still wouldn't sway me as a cramped seat is a cramped seat no matter what airline you are on. IFE doesn't mean anything to me either, as I will either read a book or watch a movie on my laptop. So as terms of service, it doesn't mean sqwaut to me. The FF program also means less and less to me as it is increasingly more difficult to cash in an award without using an increasingly larger number of miles, and again since most flights are RJs, I get no benefits, like upgrades, for maintaining a meddalion status.
Like LAXDude says, it is all about the network. So with the changes and cuts that DL has done at CVG, they can no longer depend on my 100K plus miles a year, most being full fare tickets, purchased with little notice. Instead, I am now picking whatever airline gets me from point A to point B the fastest, whether that be UA through ORD, AA through ORD or DFW, CO through IAH, or even driving up the road to DAY to catch FL. I will tend to stay away from DL through ATL, as I personally feel that ATL is a terrible airport where a large portion of my flights always seem to be delayed.
I am no longer loyal to DL. I wish them luck, but where I live and how much I travel, it just doesn't make sense to be loyal to them any longer.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 210, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10957 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 198): There was always so much talk about how everything was going to be shut down and moved to ATL. That would have defeted the purpose of the merger. Glad to see DL is utilizing the synergy of the merger.
Not from Delta. That was all rumor and conjecture, mostly here on A.net.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5672 posts, RR: 9 Reply 211, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10919 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 210): Not from Delta. That was all rumor and conjecture, mostly here on A.net.
Exactly correct. Delta never said that or intimated that. That was all conjecture on A.net and all of a sudden it becomes a fact out of the mouth of Delta. Never happened.
Intl767400 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 19 posts, RR: 0 Reply 212, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10899 times:
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 209): Agreed 100%. I live in Cincinnati, and my loyalty to DL has shrunk proportionately, if not more than the rate of cuts at CVG. Increasingly, I have to connect more and more, so the convenience of non-stop is going the way of the doh doh bird out of CVG. Contrary to the DL advocates on this board, I think their product in non-differentiated to any other US-based airline, and since it is mostly RJs out of CVG, I think DL down right sucks. If there was more mainline out of CVG, the service still wouldn't sway me as a cramped seat is a cramped seat no matter what airline you are on. IFE doesn't mean anything to me either, as I will either read a book or watch a movie on my laptop. So as terms of service, it doesn't mean sqwaut to me. The FF program also means less and less to me as it is increasingly more difficult to cash in an award without using an increasingly larger number of miles, and again since most flights are RJs, I get no benefits, like upgrades, for maintaining a meddalion status.
Like LAXDude says, it is all about the network. So with the changes and cuts that DL has done at CVG, they can no longer depend on my 100K plus miles a year, most being full fare tickets, purchased with little notice. Instead, I am now picking whatever airline gets me from point A to point B the fastest, whether that be UA through ORD, AA through ORD or DFW, CO through IAH, or even driving up the road to DAY to catch FL. I will tend to stay away from DL through ATL, as I personally feel that ATL is a terrible airport where a large portion of my flights always seem to be delayed.
I am no longer loyal to DL. I wish them luck, but where I live and how much I travel, it just doesn't make sense to be loyal to them any longer.
The real problem is you live in CVG. Delta made a huge mistake by trying to put a mainline hub out of a place like CVG. Be glad you had mainline non stop service to so many destinations for so many years. It is a good thing you do not mind connecting through big hubs because that is the future of CVG service. You must be living right if you connect through ORD and do not experience delays as ORD is historically one of the most delayed airports! BTW, no other hubs except ATL have delays?! Good Luck escaping out of CVG to a real city with real air service!
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 213, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10851 times:
Quoting Intl767400 (Reply 212): The real problem is you live in CVG. Delta made a huge mistake by trying to put a mainline hub out of a place like CVG. Be glad you had mainline non stop service to so many destinations for so many years. It is a good thing you do not mind connecting through big hubs because that is the future of CVG service. You must be living right if you connect through ORD and do not experience delays as ORD is historically one of the most delayed airports! BTW, no other hubs except ATL have delays?! Good Luck escaping out of CVG to a real city with real air service!
Don't forget that DL originally started CVG as a reliever hub for ATL and it just sort of morphed into a full fledged hub.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
Iflyatldl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1936 posts, RR: 4 Reply 214, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10566 times:
Is it really worth keeping LGW open for just 1 daily flight? There really isn't any Skyteam carrier presence for connecting pax, seasonal or otherwise. Couldn't the CVG flight be shifted to LHR? I'm sure a slot could be traded.
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
UnitedTristar From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1187 posts, RR: 5 Reply 215, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9685 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 167): Because it does not have to be reported to the DOT, it is "off the books". Those who have are in the know are well aware of how much traffic DL carried from the US to Latin America, esp. Japan to GRU and LIM, and that proportionately, DL/NW combined are increasing their presence in these markets. Not surprisingly, DTW is one of the best served cities to Japan in the interior US.
well...the Asia to/from L. Amer routes are not the best strategy.
for example, to fly from LIM to NRT it is $6,965 (pulled from Orbitz for random dates at the end of AUG) vs LIM to ATL is $4,552 or ATL to NRT is $8,016. Do you really want to displace over $12K in revenue for a 7K ticket?
the flights originating out of NRT is a bit worse, $5,575 for NRT to LIM VS NRT to ATL is $7,473 or ATL to LIM is $2,872
DL would be smart to keep the L. Amer out of ATL and the Asia out of DTW, making it not as easy to connect forcing the lower yields offline.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 182):
By rationalizing the Asia schedule as it has, DL has done something really smart: it has, for the most part, used ATL for Latin America-Asia itineraries where the one-stop service is necessary because someone else flies the route one-stop (through IAD, DFW, ORD, or IAH). SCL-PVG is no longer possible one-stop, but it's also not possible one-stop on any competitor. That means DL isn't at a disadvantage. In contrast, all kinds of carriers offer EZE-NRT one-stop, and DL continues to offer that.
again, why would you want to?
Welcome aboard United Airlines L1011 Friendship Service to Osaka!
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 19516 posts, RR: 18 Reply 216, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9648 times:
Today, I'm not sure there's enough demand from the United States to Asia or to Latin America to fill the airplanes. It's not like DL can stick a 752 on ATL-NRT because the demand is soft. At that point, they might as well get some money for the seat rather than no money.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 217, posted (2 years 11 months 21 hours ago) and read 9045 times:
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 209): Instead, I am now picking whatever airline gets me from point A to point B the fastest, whether that be UA through ORD, AA through ORD or DFW, CO through IAH, or even driving up the road to DAY to catch FL. I will tend to stay away from DL through ATL, as I personally feel that ATL is a terrible airport where a large portion of my flights always seem to be delayed.
You complain about having to connect and then you say that's exactly what you'll do to avoid DL. Don't you find it difficult talking out of both sides of your mouth at once?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3432 posts, RR: 33 Reply 218, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8489 times:
I've been encouraged to post this news here, on this long, old and irrelevant thread. So... here is goes.
Mesaba announced yesterday that due to poor loads and bad yields, DL has decided to end all service to Dubuque, IA (DBQ). This marks the 3rd station closure this summer by Mesaba due to DLs decisions to completely withdraw service from markets. Unfortunately, this puts more FRONTLINE employees out of work. The good news is that DL still serves MLI in the area as well as DSM, CID, ALO, FOD, MCW and SUX in other parts of Iowa.
Intl767400 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 19 posts, RR: 0 Reply 219, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7989 times:
does anyone know when Delta will post the fall/winter schedules?
FutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 729 posts, RR: 1 Reply 221, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7838 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 220): Didn't somebody mention Delta is ending CVG-IAH? Can't seem to find confirmation of that anywhere.
The thread apparently keeping getting deleted, but yes, DL is ending CVG-BHM/DAY/IAH come the end of August.
Drerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4354 posts, RR: 10 Reply 222, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7847 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 220): Didn't somebody mention Delta is ending CVG-IAH? Can't seem to find confirmation of that anywhere.
Yeah - there was another thread devoted solely to that; but to sum it up:
CVG-IAH gets axed
2nd IAH-JFK CR9 starts
5th IAH-DTW added with 4 of the 5 IAH-DTW mainline.
So all in all I don't think IAH really looses anything in the grand scheme of things. I wish they would throw IAH a 757 somewhere though.
LambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2017 posts, RR: 43 Reply 223, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7718 times:
Quoting Intl767400 (Reply 212): The real problem is you live in CVG. Delta made a huge mistake by trying to put a mainline hub out of a place like CVG. Be glad you had mainline non stop service to so many destinations for so many years. It is a good thing you do not mind connecting through big hubs because that is the future of CVG service. You must be living right if you connect through ORD and do not experience delays as ORD is historically one of the most delayed airports! BTW, no other hubs except ATL have delays?! Good Luck escaping out of CVG to a real city with real air service!
There is no need to provoke Cincinnati natives to come out of the woodwork and start the debate of whether or not the city can support a hub. We've been through this with St. Louis and Pittsburgh and they all turn into enormous pissing matches. This board is better off without them.
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 209): Agreed 100%. I live in Cincinnati, and my loyalty to DL has shrunk proportionately, if not more than the rate of cuts at CVG. Increasingly, I have to connect more and more, so the convenience of non-stop is going the way of the doh doh bird out of CVG.
I have a feeling that a lot of the response to the DL cuts will revolve around the PR it gets from the local media.
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch threw American a bone and put a positive PR spin on American's 2003 cutbacks. It will be interesting to see if the Enquirer will do the same for Delta.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 224, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7639 times:
it was mentioned in the now deleted DL dropping CVG-IAH thread that some sort of anouncement was going to be made about the CVG hub either today or tomorrow. Has anything been announced yet?
AvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 225, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7394 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 224): it was mentioned in the now deleted DL dropping CVG-IAH thread that some sort of anouncement was going to be made about the CVG hub either today or tomorrow. Has anything been announced yet?
Where in the hell did that thread go? I find it, extremely, ironic how legitimate threads will disappear on here. This occurs more and more.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11009 posts, RR: 64 Reply 226, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7363 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 215): for example, to fly from LIM to NRT it is $6,965 (pulled from Orbitz for random dates at the end of AUG) vs LIM to ATL is $4,552 or ATL to NRT is $8,016. Do you really want to displace over $12K in revenue for a 7K ticket?
That's always my point when users here try to show point that traffic from places like Sao Paulo or Lima to Tokyo could be interesting for an airline. No one takes into consideration that connections mean lower yields than strong O&D. This could be good for Y but it's very bad for C and F traffic.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 216): Today, I'm not sure there's enough demand from the United States to Asia or to Latin America to fill the airplanes
Agree 100% and that's why almost all airlines are reducing capacity.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 227, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7339 times:
Quoting Intl767400 (Reply 212): The real problem is you live in CVG. Delta made a huge mistake by trying to put a mainline hub out of a place like CVG. Be glad you had mainline non stop service to so many destinations for so many years. It is a good thing you do not mind connecting through big hubs because that is the future of CVG service. You must be living right if you connect through ORD and do not experience delays as ORD is historically one of the most delayed airports! BTW, no other hubs except ATL have delays?! Good Luck escaping out of CVG to a real city with real air service!
It wasn't a mistake at the time, nor for many years after. It only seems like a mistake, now, with all the cutbacks happening, there. It was a hub that many, many passengers preferred going thru rather than ATL. Like I said before, it was originally a reliever hub for ATL but kind of morphed into a full fledged hub over the years.
Even on the cargo side, if we could send something thru CVG as an alternative to ATL, we would do it because we knew there would be no problem in connecting it. ATL, which we referred to as "The Black Hole" sort of sucked the cargo in, but then didn't spit it out the other side in a timely manner.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2896 posts, RR: 4 Reply 228, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6838 times:
Yeah, well at least we don't have hurricanes and humidity. :P
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 204): Though if you really don't believe what I said, then I just don't know what to say. It's one of the most basic facts about airline revenue. The top 20% of flyers account for around 50% of revenue.
Indeed, that's one of the most basic tenets of business, period.
Luckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1405 posts, RR: 0 Reply 229, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6681 times:
Quoting 777STL (Reply 228): Yeah, well at least we don't have hurricanes and humidity.
No, but you do have duststorms that can blow out your windows Also! The air is so dry to us eastcoasters that your nose can dry up so much it feels like there's pieces of glass in there....
Delta's terminal there is like stepping back in time... very odd and interesting at the same time.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 230, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6539 times:
Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 225): Where in the hell did that thread go? I find it, extremely, ironic how legitimate threads will disappear on here. This occurs more and more.
couldnt agree with you more on that. The thread on DL pulling out of DBQ seems to have been deleted too. Guess they were not topics that deserved their own thread? Stinks because there was som good conversations going on ion each one
AvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 231, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6446 times:
Some thing does not look correct CVG appears to be heavy on the hit list.
As a quick recap what are the flight cut by hub:
Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8522 posts, RR: 22 Reply 233, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6334 times:
Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 231): Some thing does not look correct CVG appears to be heavy on the hit list.
As a quick recap what are the flight cut by hub:
AMS, FCO, LGW, and FRA are all on the chopping block? Wow! There goes tatl service from CVG... Altho, isn't there CDG service? I guess that's all they'll have...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
AvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 234, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6232 times:
What was DL peak in CVG as to cities served and mainline?
I think it would make us sick to see the comparison to today.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 5697 posts, RR: 28 Reply 235, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6198 times:
Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 234): What was DL peak in CVG as to cities served and mainline?
I guess it depends on what you call peak. The peak in terms of mainline operations occurred in 1996 with about 220 mainline flights. In terms of overall flights, that peak was hit in 2005 with about 610!! Of course about 450 of those were RJ's. In terms of destinations, I think the 2005 peak was about 130.
Though schedules aren't complete, my expectation is that CVG will be just over 200 flights (with only about 35 mainline) and maybe 70 destinations in September.
USPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3213 posts, RR: 9 Reply 236, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6185 times:
Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 234): What was DL peak in CVG as to cities served and mainline?
N702ML has a site, departedflights.com, that has listings of daily departures and totals for about fifteen current and defunct hubs, including TW @ STL, US @ PIT and BWI, and DL @ LAX/DFW/CVG. It's quite a good site.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 237, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5772 times:
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 238, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5689 times:
JFKZRH was also pulled out of OCT09; was it originally supposed to be seasonal?
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 239, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5659 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 238): JFKZRH was also pulled out of OCT09; was it originally supposed to be seasonal?
Yes supposed to run through Oct 23 or 24. When is it ending now?
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 240, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5479 times:
Does anyone know when DL's fall/winter schedule will be loaded in the system? Does anyone expect to see any additional CVG cuts?
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4910 posts, RR: 21 Reply 242, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5466 times:
Quoting Panamair (Reply 239): Yes supposed to run through Oct 23 or 24. When is it ending now?
AvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 244, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5415 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 240): Does anyone expect to see any additional CVG cuts?
I remember last Fall, DL stated they were committed to CVG thru Summer '09.
How much was DFW cut back before DL announced it was de-hubbed?
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 243): The press release was a "best of" highlights.
Airlines have amazed me in not revealing discontinuing of service. I do not envy the airport directors of the smaller cities. I am sure they are quite nervous.
Skibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0 Reply 245, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5365 times:
Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 244): I remember last Fall, DL stated they were committed to CVG thru Summer '09.
How much was DFW cut back before DL announced it was de-hubbed?
The Enquirer just came out with an article on the cuts:
In the article, they refer to a letter that Anderson wrote to the Cincinnati USA Regional Chamber.
Anderson starts off and says:
"We cannot continue to operate at the same level as prior years when both demand and revenues do not support the routes,"
But then later states:
"Delta remains committed to Cincinnati and is continuing to take the necessary steps to ensure our operation is profitable and appropriately sized to withstand every economic cycle,"
So DL continues to say they are committed to CVG, but notice that they did not use the word "hub" in the second quote. However, as you can imagine, the people of Cincinnati will read into that and say that the hub is safe. I don't know who is more ignorant here. The well crafted letter from DL which obviously is worded in such a way to continue to pull the wool over the eyes of Cincinnatians, or Cincincinnatians for continuing to believe that it will still be a hub. I guess I now know why Mark Twain said "When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati because it's always twenty years behind the times."
USPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3213 posts, RR: 9 Reply 246, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5311 times:
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 245): So DL continues to say they are committed to CVG, but notice that they did not use the word "hub" in the second quote. However, as you can imagine, the people of Cincinnati will read into that and say that the hub is safe. I don't know who is more ignorant here. The well crafted letter from DL which obviously is worded in such a way to continue to pull the wool over the eyes of Cincinnatians, or Cincincinnatians for continuing to believe that it will still be a hub. I guess I now know why Mark Twain said "When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati because it's always twenty years behind the times."
US Airways said similar things in 2003-04 during the PIT pulldowns. Most people here assumed the hub would stay. Frankly, as nice as it has been connecting through CVG as opposed to ATL over the years, I think we are seeing a permanent end to medium-sized cities serving as connecting hubs.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 247, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5288 times:
Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 246): I think we are seeing a permanent end to medium-sized cities serving as connecting hubs.
Except for SLC.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
USPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3213 posts, RR: 9 Reply 248, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5288 times:
SLC's status has more to do with location than anything else. Hopefully in the future, DL will continue to add international markets and frequencies to bolster the network there.
In fact, the only one of the original mid-sized hubs still flourishing is CLT, believe it or not. Just about all of the others, aside from SLC, have been downsized considerably or closed completely.
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 249, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5240 times:
Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 248): SLC's status has more to do with location than anything else. Hopefully in the future, DL will continue to add international markets and frequencies to bolster the network there.
Well, the location doesn't mean much either as the City of Denver, on different occasions, has tried to get DL to move the hub to DEN. There has also been a persistent rumor in the late 90s and early 00's about DL moving the hub to LAS and it had nothing to do with US's attempt to take over DL.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
Skibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0 Reply 250, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5257 times:
Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 248): In fact, the only one of the original mid-sized hubs still flourishing is CLT, believe it or not. Just about all of the others, aside from SLC, have been downsized considerably or closed completely.
Except for MEM, which I believe has a short shelf-life as well. I think eventually DL will settle on ATL, JFK, DTW, MSP and SLC as their domestic hubs.
AvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 251, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5329 times:
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 245): So DL continues to say they are committed to CVG, but notice that they did not use the word "hub" in the second quote.
Look at it this way, should things not workout with MKE for FL and they attempt to setup shop in CVG. It will be met with extreme prejudice from DL and all the mainline aircraft you would want.
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 250): I think eventually DL will settle on ATL, JFK, DTW, MSP and SLC as their domestic hubs.
USPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3213 posts, RR: 9 Reply 252, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5334 times:
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 250): Except for MEM, which I believe has a short shelf-life as well. I think eventually DL will settle on ATL, JFK, DTW, MSP and SLC as their domestic hubs.
MEM should last a few more years, though, or at least until they get additional runway capacity at ATL. That's the main reason DL is keeping MEM going at the moment.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 7671 posts, RR: 8 Reply 253, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5283 times:
Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 252): MEM should last a few more years, though, or at least until they get additional runway capacity at ATL.
huh?
2005 flights perday 4 runways- 1200
2009 flights perday 5 runways- 1000
DL should be able to add MEM into ATL easy. IMO CVG will die first.....then come MEM.
Also DL will be changing.....
route______now_____change
ATL-FCO ___333______767
ATL-FCO____333______767
ATL-AMS____333______332
ATL-HNL____744______333
DTW-PVG___744______777
MSP-LHR___332______767
JFK-FCO____333______767
AMS-BOM___767______332
Also MSP-CDG and SEA-OGG will get a seasonal cut.....
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
Joeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 819 posts, RR: 1 Reply 254, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5264 times:
Those are all reductions...where are the planes going? I'm assuming the smaller planes are coming from the routes being cut from CVG among other places.
Are the bigger planes going to the desert? I doubt the 333 will be but the 747 could be.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30434 posts, RR: 77 Reply 255, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5284 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 254): Those are all reductions...where are the planes going? I'm assuming the smaller planes are coming from the routes being cut from CVG among other places.
Reduced utilization rates. Although there is one new Europe route being planned for November. Hopefully it launches, but it hasn't been announced yet and I think it should have been by now.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 256, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5237 times:
Also, PHL-CDG is switching over from AF to a DL 752 starting October 5.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 7671 posts, RR: 8 Reply 257, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5222 times:
Quoting Panamair (Reply 256): Also, PHL-CDG is switching over from AF to a DL 752 starting October 5.
Forgot to add that one.
Panamair is JFK-BOM still 5x weekly? and id DTW-PVG going more than 4(?)x weekly?
PVG has lost ALOT of seats on Delta. IIRC NRT-PVG went from 744 to 332, ATL-PVG was dropped and now DTW-PVG is going from 744 to 777.....jeesh and UA is still running 2x daily 744s to PVG. (ORD and SFO)
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 258, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5210 times:
MSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1312 posts, RR: 2 Reply 259, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5183 times:
I wonder where the A333s and 744s are going. Hope the latter isn't the desert, but it wouldn't surprise me.
And could ATL-HNL be seasonal cut? That's a large cut in capacity on top of a previous large cut in capacity.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 28 Reply 261, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5226 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 260): So now Delta is ending all service to India? Wow.
AMS-BOM is still there.....it'll be like the old days of JFK-FRA-BOM or JFK-CDG-BOM again....at least for now...
Iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3650 posts, RR: 7 Reply 263, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5003 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 207): I too think it all comes down to network and where you can reach nonstop. I live in LA and Im moving to Dallas. Therefore I wont be flying anyone but AA if I can help it. Airlines have to get alot of their traffic that way.
Coalways From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0 Reply 264, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5002 times:
Wow JFK-BOM not starting DL is really cutting ALOT of its longhual flights from the US to other points on the Globe. CO will be the only US Carrier left in the market from EWR-BOM
I wonder how long SYD will last, its not really a big business market.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 7671 posts, RR: 8 Reply 265, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4884 times:
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 259): And could ATL-HNL be seasonal cut?
from a 744 to a 333 yes. In years past HNL(and LGW and FCO) have been 1x 767 during the winter and 2x 767 in the summer. So HNL will have more seats this winter than years past.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30434 posts, RR: 77 Reply 266, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4627 times:
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 265): have been 1x 767 during the winter and 2x 767 in the summer. So HNL will have more seats this winter than years past.
HNL has been a 2x 767 market. Peak for HNL from the East Coast is winter, not summer. Capacity is down, not just from Delta/ATL, but from everybody.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 267, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4540 times:
**sigh** I am hoping it will be back someday, I know the airport commission is working with Delta to reinstate the flight. It did have decent yields and full loads. Not everyone wants to go through MSP or DTW.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 268, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4451 times:
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 250): Except for MEM, which I believe has a short shelf-life as well.
possibly, but there are a couple things MEM does have going for it, the FedEx hub which keeps operating costs there pretty low, and also its more centralized location, which can grab the southern plains/Texas/western midwest traffic flows better than ATL can. Plus MEM isn't really too big to begin with so one could say the hub has been "right-sized" for a while. Its not like CVG where at one time they ran 600 daily flights through, way too big for a city that size. It is encouraging that MEM hasn't taken alot of cuts either, and has seen a few additions (i.e. DAL, MFE, LUB). Granted MEM is closer to ATL than MSP is to DTW, but I could envision a scenerio where DL operates a dual hub system in the south with MEM and ATL similar to what they do in the north ala DTW and MSP. Its nice to have the secondary option when it comes to weather delays and so forth.
NWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3161 posts, RR: 8 Reply 269, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4416 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 268): Its nice to have the secondary option when it comes to weather delays and so forth.
In addition, I'd also just like to add that it's a great way to get people from the upper tier to southern destinations in the winter, IRROPS or not.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
LAXdude1023 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 6081 posts, RR: 28 Reply 271, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4113 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 267): It did have decent yields and full loads.
If DL cut it, it probably didnt have decent yields, or didnt contribute enough to the hub. DL doesnt like cutting service at ATL. If they do, it means that the flight being cut was underpreforming or wasnt contributing to the hub enough. Dont know which it was in this case.
Next flights: DFW-GRU-SDU-EZE-DFW on AA/JJ/EK in J!
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 14244 posts, RR: 51 Reply 272, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4003 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 270): nopes it is confirmed SUSPENDED...and has been updated on Sabre as well.
How many free 777s do they have now versus planned?
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 273, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3887 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 271): If DL cut it, it probably didnt have decent yields, or didnt contribute enough to the hub. DL doesnt like cutting service at ATL. If they do, it means that the flight being cut was underpreforming or wasnt contributing to the hub enough. Dont know which it was in this case
not sure but the article in the Cedar Rapids Gazette had our airport commissioner state the flight had good yields. I know I can attest to the flights being full having taken them on several occassions (I know, full loads doesn't always equal good yields). But CR is typically a higher yielding airport.
quote: "Delta began service between Cedar Rapids and Atlanta with a daily flight in June 2006. It added a second flight in June 2007, but that has been reduced to a single flight each day.
“That flight has been very full and the yields have been good, but the fuel prices for the airlines have ratcheted up,” Mann said. “Delta made a decision to put their aircraft elsewhere. We’re going to work very hard to convince Delta that they need to retain that service for business travelers.”
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4910 posts, RR: 21 Reply 274, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3783 times:
Aiport commissioner's have a tendency to talk about routes to make their particular airport look good. Bottom line, if the flight really did have good yields it would not be cut.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 275, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3710 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 274): Aiport commissioner's have a tendency to talk about routes to make their particular airport look good. Bottom line, if the flight really did have good yields it would not be cut.
Maybe, maybe not. I'd be interested to see where the flight stood on the revenue list. I know someone on here used to post information on that. Flights on DL out of here aren't exactly cheap. They are about $200 cheaper out of Moline (where they compete with AirTran). My only hope is that the flight will be back one day, the route was good enough at one point to add a 2nd daily flight. FSD recently got their ATL flight back (it was cancelled for about a year) so hopefully when the economic climate is favorable we can see it return.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 7671 posts, RR: 8 Reply 276, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3710 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 266): HNL has been a 2x 767 market. Peak for HNL from the East Coast is winter, not summer. Capacity is down, not just from Delta/ATL, but from everybody.
It was 1x daily 764 last year. 2x during the summer. They said the reason it went 744 was to not use two 767s.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 272): How many free 777s do they have now versus planned?
They should have 2 extra 77Ls and 3-4 77Es.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 277, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3473 times:
When will DL place its code on all existing NW flights? For example, if I go to Delta's timetable, it will not show me CID-MSP flights.....when will this change?
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 7518 posts, RR: 10 Reply 278, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3455 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 277): When will DL place its code on all existing NW flights? For example, if I go to Delta's timetable, it will not show me CID-MSP flights.....when will this change?
When the Single Operating Certificate is okayed and in effect. They are hoping by the end of the year.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 279, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3235 times:
just noticed some more changes, at MLI (Moline, IL), MEM goes down to 1x daily (from 2), and this was surprising, MSP gets cut to only 2x daily. ATL stays at 5x daily but goes to all CR7's. DTW is at 4x daily. Is there not that much westbound traffic on DL/NW out of MLI? The MSP cuts really stand out....
I do notice here at CID they bumped MSP back up to 5 flights (from 4) and DTW to 4 (from 3)
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 280, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3231 times:
one other thing, is HTS the only CVG exclusive route now? With the cutting going on there, could we expect to see this flight shifted to either DTW or ATL?
DeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8545 posts, RR: 14 Reply 281, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3235 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 277): When will DL place its code on all existing NW flights? For example, if I go to Delta's timetable, it will not show me CID-MSP flights.....when will this change?
Quoting Mayor (Reply 278): When the Single Operating Certificate is okayed and in effect. They are hoping by the end of the year.
I just keyed in CID-MSP on delta.com's timetable and it pulled up the 4 NW flights (with NW flight numbers on each, not DL codeshare numbers).
That being said, I believe DL is codesharing on every single NW flight number now (and has for the past couple of months). You should also be able to book a CID-MSP nonstop r/t on delta.com (it will just list the NW flights/numbers, but you can still book it just fine).
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1791 posts, RR: 3 Reply 282, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3126 times:
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 281): That being said, I believe DL is codesharing on every single NW flight number now (and has for the past couple of months). You should also be able to book a CID-MSP nonstop r/t on delta.com (it will just list the NW flights/numbers, but you can still book it just fine).
I do see that for booking the flights they do come up, but weird that the printable pdf timetable doesn't show that...is that because the flights are coded as NW? I see all DTW flights are coded as DL and do show on the pdf timetable.
By738 From Cocos (Keeling) Islands, joined Sep 2000, 1710 posts, RR: 1 Reply 283, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2917 times:
ED-JFK
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 74): This is a surprise, is it to do with load factors?
Oh yes, sometimes as low as about 60% in Winter and agreesive competition from the long established CO on NYC route. DL just havent done their homework at EDI it would seem
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