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How Can Toronto Beat JFK For The A380?  
User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1102 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10153 times:

I have a hard time understanding how Toronto can be better suited to get the A380 than JFK for Emirates. Can anyone explain?

Is it a reliability issue? I just don't get it.

[Edited 2009-06-11 12:47:12]

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24817 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10119 times:

Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
I have a hard time understanding how Toronto can be better suited to get the A380 than JFK for Emirates. Can anyone explain?

The Canada-UAE bilateral restricts EK to only 3 flights a week. They have been lobbying with the Canadian government for daily service for years. Since that isn't likely to happen anytime soon, they apparently prefer to maximize their capacity in the YYZ market within the limits of the 3 per week restriction by using their largest aircraft.

The Canada-UAE restriction is actually 6 flights a week but that has to be shared by both EK and EY, with EK operating 3 per week YYZ-DXB and EY 3 per week YYZ-AUH.

[Edited 2009-06-11 12:53:39]

User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3658 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10118 times:

EK can't serve YYZ daily, so the only way to increase the number of seats per flight is to use the A380. Apparently JFK has seen traffic go down a bit during this economic downturn, while YYZ remains very strong. Eventually an increase in JFK traffic should have the A380 back, it's just a matter of time.


The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10092 times:

It's because Canada won't allow EK to expand their services to Canada from the current levels at YYZ while JFK has multiple daily flights.

So really it's just supply and demand. EK can't add service to Canada so they're making up some of the loss by adding capacity in the form of the A380. If you do a quick search, within the past week there was a thread discussing how Air Canada is actively trying to keep EK from getting more access to Canada and that will give you some more info as to why EK now put the A380 to YYZ instead of JFK.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10011 times:



Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
Is it a reliability issue? I just don't get it.

In what respect could it possibly be a reliability issue? Reliability of what?


User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1102 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9915 times:

Question answered. Thanks.

For the reliability, I thought that if they had too much teething issues with the A380, they could have sent it to a "secondary" destination rather than mess up a key destination like NYC. That was the rationale. I'm not saying it is strong...


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9752 times:

I should also point that besides the Canada bilateral restrictions EK has run into (AC is off their rockers!), Toronto would represent the 4th largest combined U.S./Canada market. JFK no doubt will see the A380 return in very a short while. JFK, YYZ, LAX, SFO and YVR reamain the most likely U.S./Canada airports to see the super-jumbo in the years ahead.


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineOjas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2957 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9710 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
JFK no doubt will see the A380 return in very a short while. JFK, YYZ, LAX, SFO and YVR reamain the most likely U.S./Canada airports to see the super-jumbo in the years ahead.

With 58 on order, EK will deploy the A380 to every airport capable of handling it no matter what the market conditions are.

Wait and watch, the time will come soon when we see the A380 flying between DXB and DOH.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlinePlanetime From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9701 times:



Quoting A380900 (Reply 5):
For the reliability, I thought that if they had too much teething issues with the A380, they could have sent it to a "secondary" destination rather than mess up a key destination like NYC. That was the rationale. I'm not saying it is strong...

I think JFK will receive a 380 back when the demand/economy picks up and more deliveries are taken of the 380.

Just out of curiosity does YYZ have enough of Business and First class demand for the 380? I could see the Y being booked out but really hard to see the front packed.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
JFK, YYZ, LAX, SFO and YVR reamain the most likely U.S./Canada airports to see the super-jumbo in the years ahead.

Not sure if LAX, SFO and YVR can take the range for the 380.

What will be the next destination for EK in N.America? ORD, IAD are two on my mind.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5404 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9622 times:

Canada has a very large oil and gas presence in the middle east. Until the 380 came along, the most likely routes were through FRA or LHR...both of which had their own issues.

With the huge number of flight options between the rest of Canada and YYZ, connecting through YYZ could save a lot of time and effort.



What the...?
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24817 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9610 times:



Quoting AznMadSci (Reply 2):
EK can't serve YYZ daily, so the only way to increase the number of seats per flight is to use the A380.

Using the A380 to YYZ is equivalent of adding a 4th weekly 777-300ER, the type EK was previously using. 489 seats (14/76/399 F/J/Y) on the A380 vs. 364 (12/42/310) on the 77W.


User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1651 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9600 times:



Quoting Planetime (Reply 8):
Just out of curiosity does YYZ have enough of Business and First class demand for the 380? I could see the Y being booked out but really hard to see the front packed.

There are 72 premium seats, am I right? Well no way will this ever be fully sold, but I can definately see EK being satisfied with strong economy sales to compensate losses made in J/F.

Quoting Planetime (Reply 8):
What will be the next destination for EK in N.America? ORD, IAD are two on my mind.

ORD as you may know is going to be served by EY. If EK does start YYZ, it will not be 'pioneering' a route. I doubt we'll see IAD in the near future. UA's loads on IAD-DXB aren't too good, and already has a flight to KWI. QR has a daily 77W to IAD from DOH. A fourth route from the Gulf to IAD would be too much.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5404 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9508 times:



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 11):

There are 72 premium seats, am I right? Well no way will this ever be fully sold, but I can definately see EK being satisfied with strong economy sales to compensate losses made in J/F.

On trips from Calgary to DXB, J was almost always sold out. I can definitely see EK taking a bite out of the AC/LH/BA traffic from Canada to the Middle east.

If it's a big enough bite, It might be wise for AC to offer YYZ-DXB direct.



What the...?
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9450 times:



Quoting Planetime (Reply 8):
Not sure if LAX, SFO and YVR can take the range for the 380.

From DXB, but SIN or SYD via another carrier with the A380 don't let it surprise you.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineWeirdLinguist From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9400 times:

one source (not sure which one) said that EK A380 had a problem with premium seats not so muc economy, and since most of the money is brought in by premium passengers you can see why they pulled. But the problem I have with the decision is that. They announced it March-ish and it ended June 1, right when it looks like the economy is getting better. Seems like a bad desicion looking back at it. Although I am just someone typing out loud who cares what I say.

User currently offlinePlanetime From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9197 times:



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 11):
There are 72 premium seats, am I right? Well no way will this ever be fully sold, but I can definately see EK being satisfied with strong economy sales to compensate losses made in J/F.

On the JFK route I remembered their F/J was always full or close to capacity until about 7 months ago.


User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9040 times:



Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
I have a hard time understanding how Toronto can be better suited to get the A380 than JFK for Emirates. Can anyone explain?

Is it a reliability issue? I just don't get it.

If you've ever been to Canada, you will realize that amount of muslims that live there. Toronto could be a major gateway to canda for vacationers going to DXB and other destinations in the middle east, as well as more people immigrating to Canada. I understand New York has a large muslim pop. as well, but maybe they see Toronto as a more attractive choice for the a380



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineHeathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 978 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9025 times:



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 16):

If you've ever been to Canada, you will realize that amount of muslims that live there. Toronto could be a major gateway to canda for vacationers going to DXB and other destinations in the middle east, as well as more people immigrating to Canada. I understand New York has a large muslim pop. as well, but maybe they see Toronto as a more attractive choice for the a380

Damn straight!

I can fully see the A380 being a premium choice for YYZ. I'd fly EK if it wern't so expensive, but it is, and I think it has something to do with load factors.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8951 times:

JFK shouldn't see too many A380 movements by any airline, actually -- maybe a daily or two from a couple airlines, especially during peak travel periods, but otherwise, serious NYC market players emphasize frequencies and network connectivity.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineWeirdLinguist From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8807 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 18):
JFK shouldn't see too many A380 movements by any airline, actually -- maybe a daily or two from a couple airlines, especially during peak travel periods, but otherwise, serious NYC market players emphasize frequencies and network connectivity.

what? new york is a big market that has a lot of "premium" passengers who will fork over more money for more comfort and the A380 does provide more comfort. I could easily see 1 daily AF, LH and EK by mid 2010. Probably not Korean Air or Singpore or Qantas. After that VS, and British Airways , either one might start a 380 out of Heathrow


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8757 times:
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Quoting Planetime (Reply 8):
Not sure if LAX, SFO and YVR can take the range for the 380.



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 13):
From DXB, but SIN or SYD via another carrier with the A380 don't let it surprise you.

EK have already said they intend to fly direct from DXB to SFO, LAX and IAH with their A380's as soon as they get them (also in the process saying that SFC and weight improvements in train will get them (quote) "nearly full payload" on SFO-DXB)

Rgds


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7873 times:



Quoting WeirdLinguist (Reply 19):
new york is a big market that has a lot of "premium" passengers who will fork over more money for more comfort and the A380 does provide more comfort

1. Don't kid yourself -- with the exception of the EK shower that no one else is bothering to install, EVERY viable inflight amenity offered on the A380 can be offered on other aircraft types, particularly the 77W.

2. Premium passengers do desire comfort, but they desire the ability to go where they want to go when they want to go above all else, and therefore frequencies generally reign supreme in the NYC market. Do I expect several airlines to bring in, say, one A380 rotation to JFK per day? Sure. But that's about it.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently onlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6457 times:

What are the reasons for this restrictions??

Do the Canadian government have an ultra-protectionist policy with regards to Air Canada, which restricts other airlines on various routes??

Switzerland were also similar with Swissair if i remember correctly... Not allowing Easyjet to start up a number of routes because they provided competition to Swissair.



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User currently offlinePorkchop From Canada, joined Jun 2008, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6054 times:

Because Toronto is awesome!

User currently offlineSq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1633 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5937 times:

As people highlighted, we have double daily frequencies to JFK, while we are limited to 3x weekly in YYZ. Great layovers for the crew, not so good for the airline, especially when flights are going out chocka full even with EK tickets being priced at a premium over other flights. Also loads and yields have taken a bad hit on the JFK run due to the financial crisis hitting the New York area harder than others. Finally, it was also a sort of PR stunt by Emirates in response to the Canadian government's restrictions, and a top off to the whining and moaning of Tim Clark and co. It's no coincidence that the inaugural was flown by a Canadian captain (we do have many of those guys over here too) and received so much press.

Quoting Planetime (Reply 8):

Just out of curiosity does YYZ have enough of Business and First class demand for the 380?

There definitely is, not only were loads above 90% on the 77W, yields were great with J and F routinely going out full. Hopefully the A380 will fill some of the gaps left by our 3x weekly schedule.

Quoting WeirdLinguist (Reply 14):
They announced it March-ish and it ended June 1, right when it looks like the economy is getting better.

Even if the economy is getting better, from what I've heard forward bookings have improved very slightly, making a 2x daily 77W rotation still the best option. The thing with JFK was from what I heard from our A380 crew was that it was wildly erratic - some days the flight would be booked to capacity, even in J and F, while others there would be less than 100 passengers on board, with only a couple in F and a handful in J.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 21):

1. Don't kid yourself -- with the exception of the EK shower that no one else is bothering to install, EVERY viable inflight amenity offered on the A380 can be offered on other aircraft types, particularly the 77W

Well there are some other benefits like the sheer added floor space. The bar on board the A380 is awesome - while the 77W and others can easily accommodate a standing bar/lounge area, it would be nowhere near as large or spacious as the one we have on the A380. Also, in JFK at least, there was direct boarding from the Business/First lounge through second-story air bridges which means completely bypassing the gate and boarding directly from the serenity of the lounge. That feature, for an outstation, was a major hit with passengers.



Keep Discovering
25 Pnwtraveler : I refer you to the giant thread on the Emirates A380 to Toronto. Lets not rehash again in another thread, all the details of the bilaterals here when
26 Gr8Circle : It's not about the oil industry or Muslim population.....it's all about the lucrative S.Asian market...primarily India, followed by Pakistan, Sri Lan
27 WeirdLinguist : I am not talking about showers, bars, casinos or w/e. I am talking about cabin pressure (helps with jet lag), engine noise etc. which are more import
28 SixtySeven : Where are they going to fly 58 of the things? Thats the question. At the end of the day the 380 will go down like the concorde. Everyone will want to
29 WeirdLinguist : The answer: No Where (NWR) Dubai is a bubble, Emirates is becoming one by expanding at an unbelievable rate. I don't see any airline needing more tha
30 Planetime : In one perspective its a no brainer that EK sent their biggest aircraft to YYZ. Its more of US vs Canada. For example in Canada if you want to go to
31 Boac747 : Let's not forget that, if Toronto were an American city, it would rank fourth in terms of population (behind New York, Los Angeles and Chicago). Toron
32 Planetime : WEll actually 7th. Since in N.America or mostly anywhere the metropolis is a bigger factor when deciding market share.
33 Chrisrex83 : It was a delightful surprise for me to hear the 380 was to serve YYZ as the first Canadian city for 380 operations. My uncle works for Honeywell and
34 Viscount724 : You are presumably referring to metropolitan area populations published by the US Census Bureau for the U.S. and from the last (2006) Canadian census
35 Heathrow : Not only this, but I know of a number of people in YOW who drive to fly from YYZ. Let's not forget the GREAT east-indian population in Brampton and Y
36 Gr8Circle : Nice equations guys and quite true....but now deduct from that the thousands who drive to BUF to catch flights, thanks to the GTAA's horrendous prici
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