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Why Has There Never Been A 'Scottish Airways '?  
User currently offlineManhattanbeach From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8184 times:

Just wondered. Alot of other carriers seem to do quite well out of Scotland. Granted you have BA but if you're going any distance you have to change somewhere no matter who you fly with.

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBananaBoY From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 1578 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8167 times:

I don't think there's ever been an "English Airways" either.  box 

There was a short-lived "Air Scotland" though...


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User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2097 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8144 times:

At one time, BA flew routes like EDI-BHX-ZRH, GLA-MAN-TXL and PIK-YMX-YYZ so ultimately BA was Scotland's national carrier. It was nationalised so there was probably no point in a 'Scottish Airways'.

User currently offlineManhattanbeach From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8145 times:

Quoting BananaBoY (Reply 1):
I don't think there's ever been an "English Airways" either.

Well come on, all hell would break loose.

No seriously, call it whatever you like but just wondered whether a few non-stops would make money ? In better times granted.

[Edited 2009-06-12 02:25:57]

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3573 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8150 times:

Don't you remember the "Caledonian girls" with the plaid skirts ?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that in their last years they flew only from London, despite all the Scottish branding.


User currently offlineManhattanbeach From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8146 times:



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 4):
Don't you remember the "Caledonian girls" with the plaid skirts ?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that in their last years they flew only from London, despite all the Scottish branding.

Yes loved them but like you say..LGW.


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7371 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8140 times:
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Would this pair be considered "Scottish" flag carriers? Chieftain Airlines with 748s in the 1980s and air écosse with Emb110s? However, Loganair carried "Scotland's airline" on the fuselage of thier aircraft.

User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8131 times:



Quoting Manhattanbeach (Thread starter):
Granted you have BA but if you're going any distance you have to change somewhere no matter who you fly with.

And with BA that also applies to any part of the UK except London.


User currently offlineManhattanbeach From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8091 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 7):
And with BA that also applies to any part of the UK except London.

Or France Paris or Spain Madrid or Germany Frankfurt...blah blah blah

(yes Munich before you fire back)

That's a tired old economically nonsensical dig at BA.


User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8084 times:
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Try these through history plenty of SCOTTISH airline identities !


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Plus these very Scottish identities


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Scottlands own airline for 48 years !

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And last but certainly not LEAST the Great


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User currently offlineCCA From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2002, 833 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8072 times:

How about this lot, short lived though.


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User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3168 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7986 times:



Quoting Manhattanbeach (Reply 8):
Or France Paris or Spain Madrid or Germany Frankfurt...blah blah blah
(yes Munich before you fire back)
That's a tired old economically nonsensical dig at BA.

Well, BA's strategy to not operate flights that do not start or end on any of the London airports (and to sell BA Connect) is quite different from other traditional European carriers.

LH for example, not only operates 2 major hubs (FRA, MUC) but has also quite extensive operations from DUS, HAM, TXL and STR, and some point-to-point flights from CGN and NUE.

AF, next to it's 2 major hubs in Paris, operates an international and domestic network of point-to-point flights (mostly through their regional subsidaries) from NTE, LYS, SXB, MRS, NCE, TLS, BOD and CFE.

In Spain, Iberia has of course transferred all it's BCN flights to XG, but so far, it doesn't seem that this venture has brought them too much success. And still, Air Nostrum operates an extensive point-to-point network from secondary airports in Spain, in Iberia's colors.

There are of course many differences between these countries and companies, that cause different business decisions. But the strategy to focus solely on hub-spoke flights (with the exception of the LCY operations) is defenitely not something that happens in all countries.


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7956 times:

Scottish European flew to FRA, but only for one season, IIRC.

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User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1676 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7934 times:

I remember that a few of BOAC (and BA?)'s TATL services included a stop at Prestwick.

There have been a few 'Scottish Airways' as several posters have pointed out but the market is so small that it doesn't warrant an independent carrier. The few TATL routes are also served by American carriers, and there's at least one longhaul link (EK to DXB). Scotland is located in a place that makes it unfavourable for pax to transit through. So it makes sense that pax from Scotland change planes at LHR, CDG, or FRA since there is no backtracking involved.

Granted, perhaps had it been the British Civil Aviation Department's policy to develop a distinct Scottish airline from the start, then perhaps we would have a well-sized airline operating a solid European network and a few niche long-haul routes. But it obviously didn't work out that way.


User currently offlineManhattanbeach From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7889 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 11):
Well, BA's strategy to

Forgive me but why is BA being dragged into this ?

Like you said there are differences between countries, companies and markets. BA for a start has alot more competition than AF or LH. Look at EK for instance and the amount of services they offer from all over the UK compared to France or Germany. Even at LHR BA has to compete directly with another carrier with significant longhaul operations based there. It's all great for competition and makes the UK market one of the 'most' competetive.

Across the globe surely the main tactic of any airline is to have its longhaul operations based at the largest or financially most important city of whatever nation they serve. This is the best way to provide the widest scope in terms of destinations. You either fly nonstop with that airline from that city or transfer with it or another airline.

Based on competition and market factors in the UK BA's best option is to have its longhaul operations based at Heathrow. That doesn't mean that another airline without those commitments costs etc could have a base in say Glasgow or Edinburgh ??

I could see an airline with a couple of cheeky little 787's doing this.

But jeez can we just leave BA out of it.

 

[Edited 2009-06-12 03:23:42]

User currently offlineBramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7713 times:

Air Scotia from the BBC series 'The High Life' anyone?

User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7700 times:
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Bramble following on the theme

A real Scottish Airline

Air Ecosse (French for Scotland!)


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User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7700 times:

I was thinking about Higland Express but that didn't last all that long. And if I recall correctly it had very low loads when it did.

I don't understand it really, I mean EDI and GLA would make fantastic bases for a niche Scottish airline using A318 /A319 aircraft. There must be rules and regs in place preventing it. Or maybe just the threat of BA coming in and swamping the market to oust it.


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7371 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7684 times:
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Business Air with Sf340s before they got a 146 for LCY-FRA ops.

User currently offlineL410TUrbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5697 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7651 times:



Quoting Manhattanbeach (Reply 14):
Look at EK for instance and the amount of services they offer from all over the UK compared to France or Germany.

EK serves 5 destinations in the UK, 4 in Germany. Your point?


User currently offlineZKEYE From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 241 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7635 times:

No sober pilots????


Sorry  drunk 



Bring out the gimp
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7617 times:



Quoting Manhattanbeach (Thread starter):
Why Has There Never Been A 'Scottish Airways '?

Oh, because it costs.  hyper 


User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2097 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7588 times:



Quoting Manhattanbeach (Reply 14):
Forgive me but why is BA being dragged into this ?

It's not altogether unfair to do so. It was a nationalised company, as such Scotland's flag carrier, then to be flogged off to investors (as I'm sure you'll remember!)


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7588 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 17):
I don't understand it really, I mean EDI and GLA would make fantastic bases for a niche Scottish airline using A318 /A319 aircraft. There must be rules and regs in place preventing it. Or maybe just the threat of BA coming in and swamping the market to oust it.

Try U2 and FR all with sizeable networks from Scotland to Europe. If anything it was them that ousted BA from the regions!



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently onlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7478 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7526 times:



Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 23):
I mean EDI and GLA would make fantastic bases for a niche Scottish airline using A318 /A319 aircraft. There must be rules and regs in place preventing it.

No such rules.

Commercial aviation in the UK (including Scotland) is effectively under the control of the EU. Their regulations allow any airline more than 50 per cent owned by EU nationals and / or investing companies to operate from any airport within the EU to any other airport anywhere within the EU. They also allow any airline to operate beyond EU borders within the restrictions imposed by existing international agreements such as the EU-USA Open Skies, the Anglo-Singapore Open Skies and the Anglo-Indian bilateral agreements.

This is how, for example AF came to operate LHR-LAX last summer. So their is little to stop airlines such as LH or AF/KL setting up a hub at, say, EDI, accept for the likely financial viabilityt of operating such a hub.


25 Post contains images BCAL : British Caledonian (BCal) was a "Scottish" airline. Many of the original investors were Scottish (including two major Scottish companies) and most of
26 AirNZ : And, as usual, when it comes to such you're wrong again because it was nothing of the sort except in your own perception! In your reference to flying
27 Needmolegroom : Those were indeed the days, you could travel from EDI or GLA to Gatwick then on to the US and other locations around the world, all on BCal planes. I
28 Manhattanbeach : Wow - doesn't it ? So does that mean that another airline could not start operations ? Which is what I was getting at and why I tried to pre-empt pos
29 Caaardiff : I know the name is hardly Scottish related, but no-one has mentioned Flyglobespan. Bases at EDI GLA and ABZ. And operating long haul routes from GLA/E
30 VirginFlyer : 29 posts and no one has made mention of Caledonian Wings... V/F
31 Planesarecool : Six actually, which is two more than in Germany, a much larger country. EK have 14 daily flights to the UK and 7 to Germany. That was his point.
32 Post contains links Glbltrvlr : Surely you can't overlook Air Scotia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Life_%28TV_series%29
33 David_itl : With EK being restricted in how many cities and frequencies they can operate into Germany. but BA had sizable ops in the regions but for reasons best
34 Planesarecool : Irrelevent. They have a far greater presence in the UK and therefore provide much more in the way of competition to BA than they do to LH.
35 Seemyseems : My mother applied to be an f/a for Air Ecosse. I reckon the main Scottish airline was most probably BCAL, but why was LGW their main hub?
36 BCAL : In the early 1980s BCal International routes from LGW were: USA ATL DFW IAH STL JFK and LAX were added to the network after the demise of Laker Skytr
37 AirbusA6 : That quote is actually from Babybus, and I was disagreeing with it! If (and it's a big if) Scotland became independant, would there be political impe
38 David_itl : That only operated in 1974 on a 4 weekly basis using 707s and led to LGW-MAN as a domestic service being introduced, You may be thinking of BA7267/72
39 AirNZ : Well, well, talk about pure ignorance. I thought as much really. You see, although you just don't seem to get it, this were you are totally incorrect
40 Manhattanbeach : My first trip as cabin crew with BA was on an ex BCAL DC-10 to IAH. I sat on the flight deck for take-off. Happy days. Some of the crew (the girls) t
41 Trintocan : BCal also served BGI and SJU - Puerto Rico was a destination and not merely a fuel stop. TrinToCan.
42 Manhattanbeach : LOL - i'm sorry but I don't quite know how to respond to that.
43 Manhattanbeach : I need an aspirin. Where did all that come from ? I've been called some things in my time but 'fanboy' and 'apologist' They're new ones. At the risk
44 Nighthawk : I strongly doubt it - the days of flag carriers and national airlines are gone. There just isnt enough demand, and most places that are viable are al
45 Manhattanbeach : I get your point although i'm beginning to regret starting this. I just thought that with some of the aircraft currently in production it might be a
46 Post contains links and images OtnySASLHR : There was a "Scottish Airlines" formed in Prestwick in 1946 as a civilian side to "Scottish Aviation" formed in 1935, its last commercial service was
47 Rutankrd : That be-thistled Donaldson 707 brings back some childhood memories on pier B at Manchester in summer 1973 with packed lunch "egg sandwiches" and a bot
48 Rdwootty : Reading a book called An Illustrated history of British European Airways by Phil Lo Bao I found the following>> Scottish Airways in 1946 flew the foll
49 BCAL : I explained this in Reply 25. Thanks. I must be getting senile! BCal served LGW-JFK in the days before Laker Skytrain but services were suspended due
50 Viscount630 : Quite simply - there HAS been a "Scottish Airways" - the original was nationalised into British European Airways shortly after WW2. It's identity was
51 Manhattanbeach : Thanks, that was interesting to read.
52 Aerecosse : B-Cal definately operated JFK with 747's. Remeber flying NW (Orient) as it was then from JFK to PIK and the BR 747 was parked up next to ours & it was
53 Trintocan : I stand corrected about BGI - I was not too sure as to whether it was a destination of BCal but I thought I had read that somewhere. Perhaps the long-
54 Rutankrd : Tritocan As far as I remember the only Caribbean Scheduled service by British Caledonian was to San Juan Aerecosse You may have seen a BCAL B747 in Pr
55 Viscount630 : Didn't BCal operate to BGI on behalf of/in association with Caribbean Airways?
56 RP TPA : Of course, the original name of Scot Air was "Suckling Airways". Now THAT was a great name for an airline, I wonder why it got changed?
57 David_itl : Wasn't Laker involved with Caribbean Airways?
58 VV701 : Far from confusing them my recollection is that they were one and the same thing. Caledonian Airways was formed in 1961 primarilly by Adam Thompson a
59 Post contains images BCAL : Laker Airways did operate services on behalf of the Barbados Government and the operation was called initially International Caribbean Airways and th
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