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Reasons Why An Airline Wouldn't Join An Alliance?  
User currently offlineWeirdLinguist From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 44 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 5735 times:

AB, EY, EK come to mind as some of the biggest airlines that are unaffiliated are there valid reasons for not joining?

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 5722 times:

EK probably won't join an alliance, they believe in competition between airlines, they probably will join if they are the dominant carrier, (like AF-KL & DL in SkyTeam). (this is mostly from wiki).

AB is likely to join either oneworld or SkyTeam, as S7 is joining OW I think AB might follow.

Don't know much about EY, they do codeshare with a large amount of airlines.

How about SV, BR, PK are they likely to join an alliance?

[Edited 2009-06-12 15:51:03]


seemyseems
User currently offlineRoyalAirMaroc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Were'nt AH or AT going to join an alliance. Last i heard, AH was close to SkyTeam membership ?


Life is a Journey, One Which I hope will include alot of Flights !! =]
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 5639 times:



Quoting RoyalAirMaroc (Reply 2):
Were'nt AH or AT going to join an alliance. Last i heard, AH was close to SkyTeam membership ?

I could see these two joining SkyTeam, I reckon they would be good for Sky.

AT is close to SkyTeam as AF-KL owns 3%, they also codeshare with DL. AH codeshares with SkyTeam members too, and I think they are 'in the process'.

Personally I would like to see AH, AT and TU in SkyTeam.



seemyseems
User currently offlineRoyalAirMaroc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 5577 times:

The only possible conflict i could see with AT joining sky is the fact that they operate many flights into West Africa from Europe via CMN. Wouldn't AF-KL object to this ?


Life is a Journey, One Which I hope will include alot of Flights !! =]
User currently offlineMal787 From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 687 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 5549 times:

Some simply choose to stand alone and have interline agreements with other carriers, this would assist this carriers bottom line to a degree without the huge cost of joining an Alliance.
Some are not up to standards of joining an Alliance be it Safety or Service related.
And others have very senior people at the top who believe the airline they own is to good to join a team

Just my view

mal787



Flying cant get enough of it
User currently offlineSsublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 1 hour ago) and read 5487 times:

What are the costs of joining/maintaining an alliance membership? I would think along the lines of getting systems/processes in place to integrate with other alliance members could potentially be a cost an airline would consider not worth the cost of joining.

Secondly, for airlines like EK & EY etc where there really is no domestic market, there probably isn't much to be gained by joining an alliance. eg: It's not like you can take a DL flight to Dubai and hop on a local EK flight to your final local destination.

Primarily O&D traffic is another reason why an alliance might not work for an airline. THis might be the case with VS?

I'm sure there are other reasons.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month ago) and read 5459 times:



Quoting WeirdLinguist (Thread starter):
Reasons Why An Airline Wouldn't Join An Alliance?

In the case of AS, they make more money when codesharing than joining the alliance, which I think is a pretty smart move.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offline7324ever From Serbia, joined May 2009, 563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month ago) and read 5443 times:

I don't think HA is in an alliance?


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User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5211 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
In the case of AS, they make more money when codesharing than joining the alliance, which I think is a pretty smart move.

And I -know- their codesharing spans at least two alliances (OneWorld and SkyTeam)... if they were to join one or the other it may make mantaining the codeshare relationship with the other difficult if not contractually impossible.

It is a very smart move. (I once flew on an AS-coded AA-operated flight with an NW FQTV number on the PNR... I didn't get the miles, of course, but I still thought it was interesting)



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User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

Major alliances are expensive to join, impose all sorts of onerous requirements, do not inherently guarantee added revenue streams, do not work with all airline business models, aand are expensive to leave.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offline77West From New Zealand, joined Jun 2009, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

It really does depend on the business model of the carrier in question - Emirates, for example, has a massive global route network and would not really gain much benefit from joining an alliance, as it hardly needs feeder traffic when it flies many of the feeder routes with its own equipment!

As an alternative, an airline such as South African Airways or Air New Zealand which are much smaller, would benefit from linking up in an alliance where, they could gain feeder traffic from other member airlines and focus on core routes with their own metal, instead of spreading themselves too thin. The bigger alliance members benefit in turn by linking up to more out of the way places, giving their own passengers more choices.



77West
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5087 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 10):
Major alliances are expensive to join, impose all sorts of onerous requirements, do not inherently guarantee added revenue streams, do not work with all airline business models, aand are expensive to leave.

Amen.

On a route-by-route basis codesharing is smarter. Arguably, when you get into non-route-revenue issues, like lounge access, alliances allow more efficient resource sharing. But alliances in general, like everything the legacies and traditional full service airlines do, is largely a result of the groupthink and herd behavior they all suffer from and are way overblown in their alleged profit-making benefits - because all their main competitors are in an alliance as well.

Cairo


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4990 times:



Quoting 7324ever (Reply 8):
I don't think HA is in an alliance?

Good question.... their website does not say anything at all, so I am going to assume that they are not in an alliance.

Can anyone at HA can confirm for us??



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently onlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1987 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

EI was part of One World until it started to become a LCC. The main reason for the departure (and from what I heard, the only reason) was the changing of their computer system when JAL joined. Maybe someone else knows the story better than I do. EI has retained its alliance with BA of One World, KL of SkyTeam, and started new ones with UA of *A and the currently unalligned B6. It seems that allances like those don't work with their product.


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User currently onlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1987 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

I also forgot to mention EI's deal with Aer Arann.


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User currently offlineBoeing77W From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

I'm still waiting for the day when VS join Star Alliance. They code share with a number of airlines in the alliance such as SQ, BD, NH, CO and they have close links with others like NZ. Has there ever been mention that they won't join an alliance?

User currently offlineChinook747 From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4054 times:



Quoting Boeing77W (Reply 16):
I'm still waiting for the day when VS join Star Alliance. They code share with a number of airlines in the alliance such as SQ, BD, NH, CO and they have close links with others like NZ. Has there ever been mention that they won't join an alliance?

and they also have a good interline agreement with AC


User currently offlineQFMel From Australia, joined Jun 2009, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4037 times:

Every two to three months when the topic of QF looking to 'consolidate' is mentioned in the media in Aus, MH is often touted as a potential target. I don't see them as a particularly attractive target in many respects, although there would be some upsides- but I wouldn't complain if it did happen and that meant they joined OneWorld....

User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1540 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4012 times:

I am a member of skyteam (NWA WorldPerks). HA and AS are both listed as "WorldPerks Airline Partners." I guess this is different than an alliance partner. Still, I have been able to use my NWA FF number to get miles on both airlines and to book award travel on both airlines.

User currently offlineTayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4005 times:

It's interesting that the main "alliance" that affects most Australian frequent flyers doesn't really offer many "alliance" flights/connections with the next nearest "alliance partner" - CX.

An alliance to me means that carriers offer as many codeshared flights on alliance partners as possible to utilise their partner's strengths. Take MEL-HKG - OW only flies this route with 1x daily QF (flag route as it continues to LHR) and 3x daily CX (1x comes inbound via ADL, all three go outbound direct to HKG).

Do QF offer codeshare flights on Cathay MEL-HKG to allow QFFF's to take advantage of CX's superior frequency? Only to odd-mark destinations in Europe, I've never seen MEL-HKG QF codeshare on CX.
Does CX feed the QF HKG-LHR legs & BA HKG-LHR flights? Nope.
And because of the paltry codeshare situation members of QFFF earn 0.5 QFFF points if you fly discount economy on CX

I don't see the point in this sort of "we're partners, but not really" situation.

So really, my question is: In some cases, why do airlines join alliances at all???


User currently offlineBjwonline From UK - England, joined Mar 2007, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3971 times:

I have read many times before that there are "issues" between QF and CX which is why they do not co-operate well together. But then when I think about the QF relationship with JL (a recent member to OW) it doesn't seem to be that much better. And who does CX work well with/code share a lot with within the OW alliance?

It has been said on here before and I totally agree, that before planning any further expansion of Oneworld, the existing carriers within this alliance need to work much better together.


User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3728 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3906 times:
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Quoting Tayser (Reply 20):
So really, my question is: In some cases, why do airlines join alliances at all???

Because they want to sell seats to passengers and expand frequent flier privileges in markets beyond the ones they serve on their own metal.

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned El Al. El Al doesn't want to join an alliance probably because they have a higher security level than all other carriers. However El Al did code share with AA at one time, I don't know if they still do.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineTayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3771 times:



Quoting American 767 (Reply 22):

Because they want to sell seats to passengers and expand frequent flier privileges in markets beyond the ones they serve on their own metal.

You missed the point.


User currently offlineNYC2TLV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3752 times:



Quoting American 767 (Reply 22):
I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned El Al. El Al doesn't want to join an alliance probably because they have a higher security level than all other carriers. However El Al did code share with AA at one time, I don't know if they still do.

Wrong, LY desparately want to join an alliance. OneWorld being the most obvious choice for them since they code share on flights with AA and IB already and are not direct competitors with any of the other carriers to Israel besides BA (which should team up with El Al if they want to crush BD).

Unfortunately for LY, nobody wants them in an alliance.


25 Directorguy : In SV's case, unlikely, because they exist simply to fulfill a function, namely to transport people to/from and within, Saudi Arabia. At most they wo
26 JQFlightie : I know that AF codeshare on QF flights operated from SIN - BNE/ADL/MEL/PER im not sure about SYD. (OneWorld and SkyTeam) Also i flew NRT - FCO on JL
27 Seemyseems : I am still interested in seeing if PK will join an alliance, hopefully SkyTeam! Any airlines looking into alliance membership?
28 AirframeAS : You can easily do that with a simple codeshare. Again, AS is a great example.....
29 Heathrow : A lot of airlines come to mind: OA, PK, AI, HA, AT, AB, VS... I think at the end of the day it comes down to if it fits their business model or not.
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