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Delta Boeing 777 And 787 Orders  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6468 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15297 times:

As we know, Delta will not be taking the initial deliveries for the 787 that were supposed to be delivered to NW. Also, on Delta's blog, it was stated that DL's future will be based around twin-jets, meaning DL is probably planning on replacing the 744 fleet.

From what I have heard, DL is considering converting NW's 787-8 orders and options to 777s (both -200LR and -300ER) and 787-9s. I can see why the 787-9 would be preferable, as it both carries more passengers and has more range, resulting in a lower CASM. If DL orders the 773ER, they would probably be used to replace the 744 fleet. Also, it is quite possible that DL might want GE engines for their 787s instead of RR. GE has helped Delta through bankruptcy, and the fact that DL's new 772LRs use GE may also be a driving factor. However, I don't know if the 787s would intially be used to replace some of the older 763ERs or simply be used for fleet growth.

For J seating, I am guessing that the 777s (both -200LR and -300ER) will have the Contour Solar Suites while the 787s will have the Thompson Vantage seats. As for Y, DL has put the staggered Thompson Cozy Suite seat project on hold, so I don't know if that is currently the plan. If the project is dead, I am guessing DL will go with the Weber 5751 slimline seats with winged headrests for Y.

For IFE, probably the both the 777s and 787s will get the Panasonic eX2 AVOD system in both cabins. DL is currently a major Panasonic customer when it comes to IFE. The 777s will probably get 9 inch screens in Y. The 787s may either get 6 inch screens or 9 inch screens in Y.

Does anyone have their opinions?

Does anyone have their own opinions?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15003 times:

Is DL ordering the B777-300ER?

Hope they do it is an amazing plane!



seemyseems
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6468 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14980 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 1):

Is DL ordering the B777-300ER?

Not yet, however, DL has stated that their future will be based around twin-jets, which is why DL isn't installing AVOD on the 744 fleet. The 773ER seems to be the most logical replacement.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5765 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14860 times:

I question how much sense it makes to do ANYTHING for fleet expansion right now- AA just announced 7.5% cuts this fall, and I suspect others will follow suit with small reductions.
The 787-8 should already have an incredibly low CASM, so I don't know that they should go for the larger -9 (again, global recession... GLOBAL...) when the -8 would do great things for them.

If they do not order and take delivery of the -8, I think they will be at a competitive disadvantage with Continental, AA (when they order), and UA (when/if they order).

Further, I'm not convinced that Delta can simply change the engine orders from RR to GE on a whim- NW never went bankrupt, so it's not as though contracts can simply be thrown out the window.
Further, we've yet to see which is the better engine for any given mission profile on that aircraft.


User currently offlineFFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14844 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
NW never went bankrupt, so it's not as though contracts can simply be thrown out the window.

Actually, NWA filed bankruptcy the exact same day as did Delta!


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14332 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
The 787-8 should already have an incredibly low CASM, so I don't know that they should go for the larger -9 (again, global recession... GLOBAL...) when the -8 would do great things for them.

Dunno, maybe capasity requirements for the next 25 years.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30851 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14315 times:
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It could also be a case that if the operating costs of a 787-8 and 787-9 are close enough, the larger model may prove to be the better revenue generator due to the extra seats available.

User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14270 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):

There goes my dreams of flying on a 744 to NRT. And DL ordering A345s or A346s.  Sad

I think it is a question of when DL will order 773ERs. I'm sure DL will order more 772LRs and use some 787 (-8 or -9 series) to replace 763s, depending on demand and the economy.



It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4747 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14215 times:

DL prefers 2-engine birds. DL has orders and options for both the 787 families and the 777 families.

Both families have the options of GE aircraft.

Your answer lies in those facts.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14116 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
Not yet, however, DL has stated that their future will be based around twin-jets, which is why DL isn't installing AVOD on the 744 fleet. The 773ER seems to be the most logical replacement.

Thanks for that, I think the B77W would be good for DL, it always does good for other carriers.



seemyseems
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21496 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 13608 times:

I do not buy this rumor. DL has a very large fleet of 763s. They need 788s for Africa and other routes that need better range and more cargo capacity than the 763.

Converting to 77Ls would be wasteful on many routes, only to be waiting for 789s which are almost the same and almost the same range as the 77L.

77Ws make sense as 744 replacements I suppose. Would like to see an American carrier flying this type. But I think the 744 can hang on for a while.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6468 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 13579 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
But I think the 744 can hang on for a while.

Well, DL has stated on their blog they won't be installing AVOD on these aircraft, and that DL's future will be based around twin-jets. So I can't see the 744 remaining in the fleet much longer.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAirkorea From South Korea, joined Dec 2006, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12878 times:

Two engine jets fits well for DL as DL and NW has never used four engine jets except for 744.
Would like to see DL 77W in the North America - Asia route.


User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12796 times:



Quoting Airkorea (Reply 12):
Two engine jets fits well for DL as DL and NW has never used four engine jets except for 744.

Hmmm...I seem to remember some DL DC-8s


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12759 times:



Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 13):

Quoting Airkorea (Reply 12):
Two engine jets fits well for DL as DL and NW has never used four engine jets except for 744.

Hmmm...I seem to remember some DL DC-8s

Convairs too IIRC....



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30851 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12730 times:
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Don't forget the 741 and 742.  Wink

User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12715 times:

Is DL and the A350 just a non-starter?

Better question: did any of the NW management who did the A330 deals wind up in positions of authority in the new DL/NW merged company?



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12690 times:

DL had Convair 880's

NW had Boeing 707's


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6468 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12651 times:



Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 17):
NW had Boeing 707's

As well as a few DC-8s.

Quoting C680 (Reply 16):
Is DL and the A350 just a non-starter?

It is possible, but probably unlikely. DL is already committed to the 777 family. As for vs. the 787, I am sure Airbus will try hard to get DL to order the A350, however, I think Boeing still has the edge.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8505 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12208 times:

What Delta really needs is a good 763ER replacement. The 788 is not as optimized for that size as the 763 already is, although of course it will work. I'm sure Boeing could design something that size and have it be even more efficient than the 788--especially if Boeing doesn't try to hit 8000nm of range.

User currently offlineJoperrin89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12161 times:



Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 13):
Hmmm...I seem to remember some DL DC-8s

Dont forget the Convair 880.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12069 times:



Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 7):
There goes my dreams of flying on a 744 to NRT. And DL ordering A345s or A346s. Sad

DL would never order the A345/A346. First, it would make no sense as they already have the 77L, so a 77W would be the logical addition. Second, the 345/346 are less efficient than the competing models, hints the sales number of the types.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 19):
What Delta really needs is a good 763ER replacement. The 788 is not as optimized for that size as the 763 already is, although of course it will work. I'm sure Boeing could design something that size and have it be even more efficient than the 788--especially if Boeing doesn't try to hit 8000nm of range.

The 788 is the closest and best replacement for the 763ER. The 787 is the direct 767 replacement.

Quoting C680 (Reply 16):
Is DL and the A350 just a non-starter?

Probably, but not definitely. DL has some brand spanking new 77Ls, options for more, and will most likely order the 77W to replace their 744s, which would cover their fleet needs in that size for a while. They won't need anything to replace the 77Es because they'll have 789s for that. I'd say DL likely won't be going for the A350.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11025 times:

Replace some of the 787-8 with 772LRs, 773ERs and 787-9. Get the 744s out of the fleet. I love them but they suck for anything more than 3 hours. Every time I fly, the video is off or doesn't work. You can sense the previous 10,000 passengers who sat in it. I don't think they have changed the interiors of the 744s since the first delivery.

NW (and UA) 744s in Y are the worst seats by far on North America - Japan. Even some developing nations have better Y!



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10574 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):
The 788 is the closest and best replacement for the 763ER. The 787 is the direct 767 replacement.

While that is what Boeing says, they also said the 757 was the direct replacement for the 727. Boeing hemmed and hawwed about that and ended up loosing some key former 727 customers to Airbus because the 757 was too big and too capable. The 788 is slightly smaller than the 764 for a given seating layout, but has a lot more range. If someone came along and designed an aircraft the same size and range of the 763ER using 787 era technology it would eat the 788s economics for lunch. Now that does not mean that an airline like DL would buy that aircraft. What really needs to be done is to look at current and possible future routings in the respective seat classes. You would think Boeing and Airbus would do a good job of this. However, it isn't easy and they have screwed up enough times to prove it.

Thank god for them there isn't real competition in the commercial airliner market. Just look at the success of the A332 and 772L. While they are great aircraft, and where relatively cheap to develop, they are shrinks. If you do the workup they get their market share because there is no real competition (The 764 was just too much of a stretch without improved engines or MTOW, and the A345 is even more of a shrink suffer). In a really competitive environment a new player would have come in and mopped the floor by building a purpose built aircraft. Instead Airbus (an Boeing to a lesser extent) is making a healthy profit, extracting decent rent, and the airlines are thinking it is the best thing ever, but really cannot get what they would really like to have.


User currently offlineFun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1034 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 10116 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
If they do not order and take delivery of the -8, I think they will be at a competitive disadvantage with Continental, AA (when they order), and UA (when/if they order).

CO switched to mostly 789's (17/25). That blows a hole in that statement. Not sure what AA ordered.

With its size and scope, DL could probably used 75-100 788's to replace the 767's (the true 767 replacement) and pick up the 789's to replace A330's & 772 models in the future.

77W is a no brainer for DL if your statement about twins is true. I do find it odd that the world's largest airline with the world's largest hub would just not consider the 748 however.


25 Bobnwa : American has an order for 42 firm and 58 options for 787. NW went bankrupt the same time as DL. Suggest you change news sources.
26 Post contains links VirginFlyer : I think what he is getting at is that Northwest are not currently in Bankruptcy, so they can't just walk away from their engine deal with RR. Of cour
27 Carls : I disagree, while DL won't order neither A358 nor A359 the A351 is a great option. And if we take your logic as the way they will be making decisions
28 Jfk777 : Delta could take the 787 with RR engines or they could tranfer the order to other airplanes. 777 with RR engines work well already for DL and not all
29 FiestaFlight : Amen to that!! I'm forced to fly Y seats 3 or 4 times a year to Asia, and these two products are simply abysmal (sp). I'm also noticing more broken s
30 Mayor : It amazes me all the claims made about an a/c that hasn't even left the drawing board, yet. Have they decided on the shape of the windows? Now, don't
31 EA772LR : Well I said closest and best replacement. And in Boeing's lineup, the 787 is the direct replacement for their 767. Commonality? You're joking right.
32 Luckyone : The 772L is not a shrink.
33 1337Delta764 : Correct. BTW, you should know that Boeing did though propose a 771ER to DL and CO as a possible replacement for their L-1011s and DC-10s, however, bo
34 DL767captain : It sounds like DL just doesn't want some of the early production models that NW was willing to take that would come at a higher weight, not that they
35 1337Delta764 : I am guessing DL might convert some 763ERs to domestic configuration towards the end of their service lives as 787s come onboard. The same was done f
36 YVRtoYYZ : Scotty! You've returned to A.net and with a better ASL machine as well!
37 DL767captain : Ya it would make sense, there's no reason not to if they are still in working order, who knows they could become the DC-9 of DL!
38 Centrair : What would be the 767 to 787 retain/replacement ratio? What would be the 747 to 777 retain/replacement ratio? Meaning how many 767s are going to need
39 Pellegrine : What is the latest on the Thompson Cozy Suites? Will they ever see the light of day in commercial service?
40 Ikramerica : The 757 was the "replacement" for the 727 only in that it started to be built as the 727 was ended. It was larger than a 727-200, and had more payloa
41 Post contains links Keesje : http://www.domain-b.com/companies/co.../images%5CRichardAnderson_03nr.jpg The boss? Delta has 13 Boeing 777's, Delta has 32 Airbus A330s. Also far mo
42 1337Delta764 : Well, the A333s are quite useful on routes from the East Coast to Europe, however, the A332 IMO is better utilized on longer routes that are too long
43 Phollingsworth : While strictly speaking the 77L is not a shrink, if you look at its payload and other properties it has many of the characteristics of a shrink. Also
44 Papatango : Delta has 16 777's------8ER's and 8LR's
45 Stitch : The 77L will lift more payload than the 77E and fly that amount of payload farther than a 77W could. About the only thing the 77L has in common with
46 Phollingsworth : The extra payload capability is hallmark of a shrink, along with some of the other factors. The 77L is an amazing aircraft, but that does not mean th
47 EA772LR : The difference between the 77L and the A332 is that the 77L size was the original size of the 777 model family, the 773/77W are stretches. Now grante
48 Stitch : I'm confused then, as to why the A318 lift less payload than the A319, which lifts less than the A320. Same with why the 737-600 lift less payload th
49 AADC10 : The 787-9 will presumably have lower CASM than the 787-8 and it can be used to downgauge 777 or 747 routes. DL is far behind AA and UA in 300+ seat i
50 Keesje : Dl has about 16 777's, 16 747s and 21 A330-300s and 21 767-400ERs, AA has 47 777's. United 52 777s and about 26 747s.
51 Mayor : Well, duh......DL has NO 3 class aircraft, so I guess AA and UA ARE ahead of DL.
52 Brons2 : AA has zero planes that carry 300+ passengers in service. Just because it says on Boeing.com that the 772 carries 305 passengers doesn't mean that it
53 Tristarcrazy : DL's 777's carry about 270, the 764 in transatlantic carry 246 (domestic version are about gone but they did carry just over 300) and A333 carries 29
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