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United States-AMS December 2008 Traffic  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6525 times:

Below is a compilation of airline performance (load factor and cargo) based on DOT data for the month of December 2008 between AMS and US and between US and AMS by major pax carriers except for some small players such as Privatair AMS-IAH. The idea of compilation of data came from a similar threat initiated by LipeGIG (credit for him) on traffic between US and Brazil.

Apart from the coclusions which could be drawn from each airline or route, it is evident that US-AMS is one of the worlds major routes and that AMS became a major distribution hub to from US to from Europe, Africa, and the Far East, especially for KLM and NW.

It is interesting to note that LF remained healthy despite the economic crisis, although some routes perform rather poorly on cargo. I also find interesting that the only major US legacy carrier without operations in AMS is AA.

Route, LF, pax and cargo -

MP
AMS MIA 68% 5056 pax 157t
MIA AMS 61% 4508 pax 230t

US
AMS PHL 66% 3075 pax 75t
PHL AMS 62% 3025 pax 119t

UA
AMS IAD 73% 5627 pax 507t
IAD AMS 69% 5480 pax 547t

AMS ORD 68% 3659 pax 324t
ORD AMS 71% 3908 pax 471t

DL
AMS ATL 73% 5399 pax 276t
ATL AMS 70% 4894 369t

AMS JFK 71% 3675 pax 10t
JFK AMS 73% 3737 3t

CO
AMS EWR 74% 5282 pax 605t
EWR AMS 80% 5427 pax 345t

AMS IAH 70% 5824 pax 484t
IAH AMS 69% 5503 pax 695t

NW
AMS BOS 68% 8684 pax 519t
BOS AMS 83% 10620 pax 463t

AMS DTW 82% 17708 pax 521t
DTW AMS 88% 19249 pax 608t

AMS EWR 83% 7597 pax 350t
EWR AMS 83% 7628 pax 16t

AMS IAD 73% 2489 pax 0t
IAD AMS 63% 2156 pax 0t

AMS JFK 65% 2840 pax 0t
JFK AMS 84% 3708 pax 0t

AMS MEM 72% 6423 pax 219t
MEM AMS 79% 7091 pax 267t

AMS MSP 83% 15491 pax 504t
MSP AMS 89% 16407 pax 625t

AMS PDX 69% 2865 pax 102t
PDX AMS 63% 2770 pax 158t

AMS SEA 85% 6516 pax 290t
SEA AMS 89% 6814 pax 329t

KLM
AMS ATL 77% 5207 pax 512t
ATL AMS 82% 5568 pax 485t

AMS DFW 65% 3419 pax 364t
DFW AMS 74% 3913 pax 367t

AMS DTW 73% 6878 pax 539t
DTW AMS 89% 8123 pax 254t

AMS IAD 67% 5178 pax 462t
IAD AMS 84% 6332 pax 396t

AMS IAH 79% 6668 pax 1514t
IAH AMS 85% 7118 pax 1919t

AMS JFK 85% 15976 pax 1597t
JFK AMS 87% 16476 pax 1322t

AMS LAX 90% 7833 pax 1342t
LAX AMS 84% 7319 pax 1360t

AMS ORD 70% 5508 pax 1662t
ORD AMS 80% 6241 pax 1340t

AMS SFO 88% 8027 pax 313t
SFO AMS 84% 7685 pax 500t

Rgs,

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6326 times:

Thanks for sharing Hardi.

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
NW



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
KLM

That's interesting the amout of non-stop connecting provided by both NW and KL on United States-AMS routes... Which planes are used for each route?

As a side note off topic, I was wondering about USA-Argentina and USA-Chile numbers, so, if you could tell me were to find such DOT data.



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User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

Ditto, thanks for sharing this.

AMS is one of the world's best airports, and certainly Europe's best major airport. That any world carrier could think about not flying there is beyond me. But then again, who said that AA is a world carrier?  stirthepot 

Anyways, good for KLM (wow, look at the loads to SFO, for example). The NW numbers to MEM also seem good; does anyone know why KLM stopped flying there with their own metal?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6195 times:



Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 2):
AMS is one of the world's best airports, and certainly Europe's best major airport. That any world carrier could think about not flying there is beyond me. But then again, who said that AA is a world carrier?

However, AMS (and the Netherlands in total) is a smaller O&D market than hubs like LHR/CDG/FRA which serve much larger populations. Most AMS traffic is connecting beyond AMS. That's generally lower-yield than O&D traffic. AA has generally favoured strong O&D markets and uses alliance partners on a code-share basis to serve points beyond. AMS has few oneworld carriers for connections to other points in Europe.

And many existing markets served nonstop from AMS have adequate capacity already, thus other carriers that don't serve AMS may have trouble generating profitable load factors. I assume that's one reason why EK/QR/EY don't serve AMS. KL has daily nonstops to DXB/DOH/AUH (more than daily to DXB). That's probably enough to meet the demand. I believe EK is more anxious ot obtain permission to serve additional points in Germany (Berlin for one) than to add service to AMS.


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6142 times:

Considering NW's and DL's loads for JFK-AMS route, I'm pretty sure AA would manage to get equally good loads if they had at least a daily B763 JFK-AMS flight.


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User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11420 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6129 times:



Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 2):
That any world carrier could think about not flying there is beyond me. But then again, who said that AA is a world carrier?

AA hasn't served Amsterdam because it does not fit into their strategy for Europe, which primarily focuses on serving large, local-centric, high-yielding business markets, and a few lower-yielding, higher-volume tourist markets (some with heavily seasonal traffic).

For AA, Amsterdam is:

1. Too small - it has one of the lowest proportions of local population to capacity of any major airport in Europe, driven by its status as a huge hub for a relatively small metro area

2. Low-yielding - compared with some of AA's more core Europe markets (London and Paris definitely at the top of the list), Amsterdam tends to have more connecting traffic - driven by point #1 - and thus lower yields

3. Already covered - AA likes to build a strong presence in fewer European markets, based primarily on their core European markets of London and Paris, and Amsterdam - given points #1 and #2 - is already very well-served from the U.S.

All the above being said, Amsterdam is a great city and a wonderful place to visit, and an AA flyer can easily get there via London on BA or via Madrid on Iberia.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6088 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
1. Too small - it has one of the lowest proportions of local population to capacity of any major airport in Europe, driven by its status as a huge hub for a relatively small metro area

That is all a matter of how one defines it. For me the entire Netherlands is the metro area of Schiphol. 16 million people and very wealthy.


User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6012 times:

Incitatus, Viscount724, and Commavia, thank you all for sharing your insightful thoughts on this. It is much appreciated.

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5899 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 1):
That's interesting the amout of non-stop connecting provided by both NW and KL on United States-AMS routes... Which planes are used for each route?

Indeed, AMS is connected nonstop to nothing more than 18 destinations in the US!

KLM uses a mix of B747M and B747, B772 and A332, NW uses the A332 and B757 (JFK only). UA uses B777/B767, CO B767 and B757, US B767, DL B767.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 2):
AMS is one of the world's best airports, and certainly Europe's best major airport.

Agreed, certainly the best long-haul airport in Europe and among the best in the world.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 2):
Anyways, good for KLM (wow, look at the loads to SFO, for example).

SFO and LAX do extremely well with both very good loads and cargo.

I am surprised ORD does so well because it is not SkyTeam hub.

DFW seems the poorest performing US destination as compared to the rest but it is KL newest route in the US.

IAH does excellent in cargo for obvious reasons (oil business).

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 2):
The NW numbers to MEM also seem good; does anyone know why KLM stopped flying there with their own metal?

MSO, SEA and MEM are the best performing NW routes between the US and AMS. KLM decided to stop flying there because of the agreement with NW in which they formed a global joint venture.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Most AMS traffic is connecting beyond AMS. That's generally lower-yield than O&D traffic.

Not reallt, connecting traffic to Asia/Middle East/Africa and some destinations in Europe which are not served nonstop from the US major gateways have incredibly high yields.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
AA has generally favoured strong O&D markets and uses alliance partners on a code-share basis to serve points beyond. AMS has few oneworld carriers for connections to other points in Europe.



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 4):
Considering NW's and DL's loads for JFK-AMS route, I'm pretty sure AA would manage to get equally good loads if they had at least a daily B763 JFK-AMS flight.

The fact BA' subsidiary OpenSkies decided to start an all-business class flight AMS-JFK during 2009 already indicates there is OW traffic at least for JFK-AMS. I would agree that AA could certainly operate with good performance a route such as JFK-AMS.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 6):
For me the entire Netherlands is the metro area of Schiphol. 16 million people and very wealthy.

You are correct, ASM Schiphol area is one of the biggest (and wealthiest) catching areas for the aviation business in Europe and in part explains the success of KLM.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
For AA, Amsterdam is:

1. Too small - it has one of the lowest proportions of local population to capacity of any major airport in Europe, driven by its status as a huge hub for a relatively small metro area

2. Low-yielding - compared with some of AA's more core Europe markets (London and Paris definitely at the top of the list), Amsterdam tends to have more connecting traffic - driven by point #1 - and thus lower yields

3. Already covered - AA likes to build a strong presence in fewer European markets, based primarily on their core European markets of London and Paris, and Amsterdam - given points #1 and #2 - is already very well-served from the U.S.

All of the above is wrong.

Amsterdam is the centre of the so called Randstad (Rim City) which is a conurbation consisting of the four largest Dutch cities (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht), and the surrounding areas. With its over 10 million, it is one of the largest conurbations in Europe. It is the home of 50 of Fortune 500 corporation and the busiest port in Europe. The Randstad is the 5th wealthiest metropolitan area in Europe measured by GDP.

Rgs,


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5744 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
I would agree that AA could certainly operate with good performance a route such as JFK-AMS.

Did they flew it already??



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User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5684 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 9):
Did they flew it already??

AA has never operated JFK-AMS to my knowledge.

However, other airlines have tried this route before, including SQ which operated AMS-EWR. I flew this route back in 2004 (?) with SQ B747, but SQ has axed this leg in mid-2004 because it started SIN-EWR A345 nonstop (18h flight) while SIN-JFK operates via FRA with B747. SQ still flies SIN-AMS B772 dedicated nonstop.

I really think AA is missing the boat in AMS because if UA and US can make AMS work there is no reason why AA cannot. KLM has even started AMS-DFW in 2008 stealing pax from AA hub market. I see there is market for AA DFW-AMS or JFK-AMS.

Rgs,


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5629 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
The fact BA' subsidiary OpenSkies decided to start an all-business class flight AMS-JFK during 2009 already indicates there is OW traffic at least for JFK-AMS.

Many reports say that Open Skies is doing very badly on the AMS route. Paris isn't doing well either in the current economic climate, but better than AMS. BA's CEO has indicated that there's a good chance Open Skies will be shut down if results don't improve soon.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5597 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Hardi thanks for the very interesting information. It's amazing to see how KL and NW dominates the US-AMS traffic.


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5500 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
BA's CEO has indicated that there's a good chance Open Skies will be shut down if results don't improve soon.

I would not be surprised, although OpenSkies has a great value for money. But in the current economic climate operating all-business-class flights must be a tough job. I imagine PrivetAir must also be facing difficulties in its all-business class AMS-IAH.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Hardi thanks for the very interesting information. It's amazing to see how KL and NW dominates the US-AMS traffic.

Lipe, I think probably the share of NW+KL should be equivalent to TAM+AA in Brazil, dont you think so? The difference is that NW+KL co-operate while TAM and AA are rivals.

I also find amazing that NW and KLM handle such a variety of destinations in the US (ST hub and non-hub). Also worth noting is that KL manages to make a lot of busines out of cargo in destinations such as LAX, IAH and ORD because it operates the B747M.

I find sometimes that TAM misses a lot of the cargo business to Brazil. There are much more cargo-only flights between the US and Brazil (ABSA, Arrow, etc) than between the US and AMS mainly because TAM does not have airplanes with big cargo compartment (except for A345) such as the B747M which can carry a lot of pax and cargo at the same time.

Rgs,


User currently offlineCws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5447 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
AA has never operated JFK-AMS to my knowledge.

However, other airlines have tried this route before, including SQ which operated AMS-EWR.

RJ has flown AMS-JFK in the past and, I believe, RO did as well.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5436 times:



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 14):
RJ has flown AMS-JFK in the past and, I believe, RO did as well.

And LY.


User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5437 times:



Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 2):
AMS is one of the world's best airports, and certainly Europe's best major airport. That any world carrier could think

Agreed!

Is KL still sending the MD-11 to SFO?



seemyseems
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6446 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5418 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
I am surprised ORD does so well because it is not SkyTeam hub.

But AMS is a huge SkyTeam hub equaling or surpassing ORD as a hub for the Star and One World Alliances which split the ORD hub.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5387 times:



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 14):
RJ has flown AMS-JFK in the past and, I believe, RO did as well.



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 14):
And LY.

Thanks I could only remember of SQ. But AA has certainly never operated in AMS as far as I remember.

Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 16):
Is KL still sending the MD-11 to SFO?

KLM sends the B747 full pax to SFO and the B747M to LAX. SFO and LAX both have very good performance, while SEA is taken care by NW with the A332 (also very good performance) and in this way KL-NW close the gap in the US West Coast.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 17):
But AMS is a huge SkyTeam hub equaling or surpassing ORD as a hub for the Star and One World Alliances which split the ORD hub.

You are right, I usually associate ORD with Star Alliance and UA. This is more the case of IAD, another market which KL does well.

I am still surprised how KL has managed to open AMS-DFW, which is KL newest route in the US. I really thought this route would not work.

Rgs,


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5374 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
KLM sends the B747 full pax to SFO and the B747M to LAX. SFO and LAX both have very good performance, while SEA is taken care by NW with the A332 (also very good performance) and in this way KL-NW close the gap in the US West Coast.

How are KLM's B747 Combi configured? B747s and M11s Combis were very common back in the 90's but now we just don't see any new Combi airplane. I wonder why.



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User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5339 times:

I am surprised ORD does so well because it is not SkyTeam hub. [/quote]

KLM has spent many years developing the market, including 10 years of my
professional life.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7498 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5274 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
I see there is market for AA DFW-AMS or JFK-AMS.

Theres really only room for one flight from DFW-AMS. One would think that AA would have the upper hand, but I think if it went head to head, KL would come out on top. DFW-AMS is a flight that is full of people who use AMS as a connecting point. AA doesnt have a European hub. They use LHR and MAD with the interline for DFW connections beyond that point, but without ATI, its harder to sell tickets as one carrier the way KL can. Plus, if you consider that the data was taken during low season when the DFW-AMS flight was 7 months old, it doesnt look so bad. Plus the amount of cargo carried on that flight aint half bad if you ask me.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
I am still surprised how KL has managed to open AMS-DFW, which is KL newest route in the US. I really thought this route would not work.

Just curious why. DFW is a very large international market. Alot of people think that you have to be associated with AA to succeed at DFW. Thats really not the case. For example, LH has always done better at DFW than BA. Also, DFW-FRA is the best preforming single flight from DFW to Europe in AA's system. That the case even though DFW is a oneworld hub and FRA is a star hub. KE is another example of a carrier that has found their way at DFW independant of AA, though DFW-ICN is pretty much an ethnic route.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5155 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 19):
How are KLM's B747 Combi configured?

KLM B747 combi has 280 seats, 42C/238Y. KLM has started to refit all of its B747M and B747 full pax. New economy and business seats installation has been finalised, while new IFEs (100+ films) have been installed in business class. The installation of the IFEs is still in progress for economy class. In my view the B747 combi has excellent configuration to simultaneously perform both passenger and freighter missions.

http://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/trav...ard/seating_plans/747-400Combi.htm

Interesting to note that KLM was the first world customer of the B747-400 Combi. Nowadays 13 airlines operate this aircraft, with 60 B747M in operation.

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 20):
KLM has spent many years developing the market, including 10 years of my
professional life.

And the numbers shows AMS-ORD is working quite well! Good work!

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
Theres really only room for one flight from DFW-AMS. One would think that AA would have the upper hand, but I think if it went head to head, KL would come out on top. DFW-AMS is a flight that is full of people who use AMS as a connecting point.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
Just curious why. DFW is a very large international market. Alot of people think that you have to be associated with AA to succeed at DFW. Thats really not the case. For example, LH has always done better at DFW than BA. Also, DFW-FRA is the best preforming single flight from DFW to Europe in AA's system

I agree that KLM has taken the DFW-AMS market and AA would not have the chance to compete with KLM. Your points about DFW market beyond AA and OW are very well taken and I agree with you. If AA ever starts AMS it will most likely be JFK-AMS.

Rgs,


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5115 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
AMS PDX 69% 2865 pax 102t
PDX AMS 63% 2770 pax 158t

Is this what they expected for this route? It does not seem that bad for a new route IMHO, but I'm no expert

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
The installation of the IFEs is still in progress for economy class.

Do you know what the status is of this (how many aircraft have the AVOD in Y now)?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
In my view the B747 combi has excellent configuration to simultaneously perform both passenger and freighter missions.

Absolutely. If it was still allowed by the FAA KL would likely have ordered the 748 combi. Unfortunately KL's long tenure with the 747 will end after the -400 series...  Sad

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
Interesting to note that KLM was the first world customer of the B747-400 Combi.

Yep, they also operated the 747-300 combi of course, and were a very early customer for the -400. They were the first to operate the GE powered 744. LH's first was delivered slightly earlier, but KL had their first 744 in service before LH.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5081 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 23):
Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
AMS PDX 69% 2865 pax 102t
PDX AMS 63% 2770 pax 158t

Is this what they expected for this route? It does not seem that bad for a new route IMHO, but I'm no expert

Compared to the other routes PDX performs poorly (has similar performance of US AMS-PHL). But we have to bear in mind that PDX (and DFW) are both new routes and could mature.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 23):
Do you know what the status is of this (how many aircraft have the AVOD in Y now)?

All of KLM MD-11s have been refitted and now feature the next seats in Y and C and AVOD system in Y and C. The B747 have been refitted with the new seats and AVOD in C. The refurbishment of the 22 strong 744/B747Ms with AVOD in Y as well as with the new Y seat will start in July this year. Capacity cuts in some destinations will allow KLM to finish the refurbishment earlier than expected.

Rgs,


25 HUYfan : How about AA on Miami-Amsterdam? It is the only route I could see working for them from AMS. Martinair is cancelling their MIA service, leaving the ro
26 Hardiwv : MP will close MIA and move to MCO instead. This leaves MIA market open. Some have mentioned there is a possibility of KL starting AMS-MIA, I doubt ab
27 Fxramper : Wish these numbers were higher. My next door neighbor uses this flight 2x month. Unclear why he uses DFW over IAH.
28 Travelin man : Interesting that a smaller market such as PDX has non-stop AMS service, while larger cities such as DEN, PHX, or even LAS do not. It seems as though a
29 B752OS : Perhaps the makeup of the local business community has something to do with this. Also, DEN and LAS both have service to Europe.
30 LAXdude1023 : They will be, the flight was entering its first slow season and was brand new when these numbers came out. And its also worth mentioning that while t
31 MAH4546 : Martinair is not ending Miami. It was a false news report. Martinair just opened their winter schedule and will continue to fly to Miami xTuTh (last
32 B752OS : Since MIA is being flown 5 x weekly, does this mean the other 2 frequencies were cut in favor of adding the MCO service?
33 Travelin man : True, but PDX has service to Europe as well (on LH). I think KL could make a DEN or LAS work (maybe not PHX).
34 MAH4546 : Not neccesarily. MP is reducing service everywhere because it is retiring 767s. MP is adding service to Orlando and Mombassa, Kenya; ending service t
35 MMEPHX : Interesting that in almost all cases the passenger LF is higher on the US-AMS sector than the AMS-US sector and the situation is almost perfectly reve
36 FlyingSicilian : Just for curiosity why can't we see their numbers also. Privatair runs that flight for KLM and IIRC the Houston Airport system publishes the numbers.
37 Hardiwv : Since you asked: Privatair AMS IAH 68% 555 pax 0t Indeed, the flight is flown on behalf of KLM on an all-business class B737, service is KLM style an
38 Seemyseems : I too read about this in February's Holland Herald, is there a picture of what the seats on the B744 might look like?
39 MAH4546 : DL currently operates CVG-AMS seasonally, but it ends permanently 29AUG09.
40 Post contains links and images Hardiwv : It will be the new economy seats similar to those in the B772 featuring AVOD system. This is the refitted Y cabin in the MD-11, I assume the B747 Y c
41 Bobnwa : The AMS based passengers already have non-stops to the Caribbean, Central America and South America out of AMS. Connecting there via MIA would not be
42 MAH4546 : Perhaps, but CVG is ending permanently in August. It will not be resuming.
43 Hardiwv : I am sure CVG will come back after DL-NW consolidation is reflected in AMS hub operations. My point was that in the list of next US destinations to b
44 LAXdude1023 : All the flights between CVG and AMS are zeroed out from Aug. 15.
45 JRadier : I honestly doubt AA could fill a 767 with AMS O/D traffic to those destinations in addition to current flights. I don't see the market being there.
46 Mindscape : By new world business class seats, you mean same seats as in their B77E and A332 and not in the B77W right? Early May, Sorry off topic, I flew BKK-AM
47 JJ8080 : Could we see KL flying to Brazilian Northeast, say, REC or FOR...? There must be a considerably big demand for leisure traffic... Perhaps 2-3x wekkly
48 Hardiwv : DL also axed CVG-FRA and CVG-LGW, the only European destination left in CVG operated by DL is CVG-CDG and I am not sure how long it will last. We wer
49 FlyingSicilian : Thank you! When I lived in Maastricht and Sittard I used to fly out of AMS to IAH ever couple of months and tried to score the Privatair flight but n
50 JJ8080 : Imagined that... What about GIG?
51 LAXdude1023 : That just hit me. The only trans-atlantic destination from CVG will be CDG. Thats crazy!
52 Bobnwa : If there is only one trans-atlantic then why wouldn't it be CDG. It is a major European city and a hub for onward connections to other destinations.
53 LAXdude1023 : It makes sense. I also would prefer AMS if I had a choice, but theres alot of histroy with the CVG-CDG route. Youre also correct in saying that eithe
54 Greenair727 : Do you have data on the final destination on the US of pax, by chance? the list looks like US port of entry points. (I realize that if a passenger sw
55 Hardiwv : GIG is a possibility, although only a few destinations have a dual AF-KL hub such as GRU and JNB. The present Brazil-NL bilateral does not allow KL t
56 JJ8080 : So, considering the bilateral barrier, as we talked about above they should go for 3x weekly AMS-FOR-REC-AMS A332 service..
57 Hjulicher : I hope that KL/NW chose to start PHL before going to DEN or LAS. I think that Skyteam could really do well in PHL if they had the connecting opportun
58 Hardiwv : I have also calculated the market share of each carrier in the US-Amsterdam-US market for December 2008 and the results are as follows: 1. NW 41% 2. K
59 Viscount724 : Do those numbers include only O&D passengers, or do they also include passengers connecting to/from points beyond AMS? I assume KL/NW carry a much hi
60 Hardiwv : The above numbers include all passengers O&D and connecting. I assume so, as I mentioned I would expect about 80% of KL/NW pax to be connecting pax i
61 Greenair727 : CLE would have been a logical next US city, but with CO pulling out of Skyteam, I'm not sure the route could support itself with the O&D and existing
62 LJ : When you´re selling a return for EUR 800 (though very limited space available) and can´t offer a daily connection it probably isn´t a good sign of
63 Hardiwv : Indeed, CLE is another potential market. It would be interesting to know which will be KL next destination in the US. I still think we will see the r
64 MAH4546 : There is absolutely no market for AA on MIA-AMS, especially with MP on the route. Martinair reducing service from daily to 5x weekly in a terrible ec
65 LJ : You don´t have to fly to AMS to cover the Dutch market. BRU is an alternative for everyone living in the Soutern part of the Randstad. DUS is an alt
66 Hardiwv : Above you mentioned that by serving CDG and LHR you already serve the Dutch market. I cannot agree, CDG and LHR are very different markets as compare
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