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What Will US Do At A Less Restricted DCA?  
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6153 times:

It's been awhile since the original McCain/Boxer legislation was introduced... we can beat this one up a bit again, I think.

From the UA thread:

Quoting Gigneil:
Another equally if not more interesting topic would be - what will US do?



Quoting Cubsrule:
US has slots coming out of its ears...

4x LAX
2x SAN
3x SFO
2x PDX?
2x SEA?
Maybe even 1x SMF (it's about 300 PDEW, so they could likely fill a 319, but I don't know at what yields. If they have the aircraft, though, it may well be a better use of a slot than a fourth flight to GSO or BDL)

LAX, SAN, and SFO are all great bets. There's no reason to believe they won't shore up UA's DEN service with a couple of flights, either.

I remember the good old days when PHX and LAS were both served entirely with 757s - but certainly SFO and LAX would require 757s on all the trips.

Might help them reconsider removing as many as they're currently planning.

NS

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6133 times:

I didn't discuss the idea of reducing GSO or BDL - that wouldn't be allowed under the new legislation unless it changed significantly and I didn't notice. The legislation allows you to exchange a within-perimeter slot to a hub airport for any destination outside the perimeter.

So Delta certainly has an advantage, having the most within-perimeter hubs.

NS


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6108 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
I didn't discuss the idea of reducing GSO or BDL - that wouldn't be allowed under the new legislation unless it changed significantly and I didn't notice. The legislation allows you to exchange a within-perimeter slot to a hub airport for any destination outside the perimeter.

Well, it wouldn't directly be allowed...

But what WOULD be allowed-- in principle anyway-- is reducing (say) TPA on January 1, and moving a slot from BDL to TPA on January 15.

...and regardless, US has a ton of slots.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAmtrakGuy From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5999 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
regardless, US has a ton of slots.

True...but remember, between 1/3 and 1/2 of slots belong to NW/DL -- NW leased the slot to US. I believe new DL will request the slots back from US slowly next few years.


User currently offlineTheGMan From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 687 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5922 times:

They might have slots, but they don't have aircraft to run those long transcons from DCA. I could see maybe a daily LAX/SFO/and maybe SAN but not multiples.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5908 times:



Quoting TheGMan (Reply 4):
They might have slots, but they don't have aircraft to run those long transcons from DCA.

Doesn't that assertion necessarily assume something about the relative profitability of DCA transcons and various flights on which the aircraft are currently used? There's at least a possibility that MHT-CLT-BDL-PHL-CLT-JAX-CLT-PIT doesn't make as much money as DCA-SFO-DCA would (and redeyes, which would certainly be one possibility for these flights, help utilization on their own without any cutting).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5895 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Thread starter):
US has slots coming out of its ears...

4x LAX
2x SAN
3x SFO
2x PDX?
2x SEA?
Maybe even 1x SMF (it's about 300 PDEW, so they could likely fill a 319, but I don't know at what yields. If they have the aircraft, though, it may well be a better use of a slot than a fourth flight to GSO or BDL)

Does US currently serve the west coast with this many flights out of DCA? Or do they just hold the slot rights to them and not always fly them?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5879 times:



Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6):
Or do they just hold the slot rights to them and not always fly them?

US holds all kinds of slots that they use to flights inside the perimeter that could be shifted to west coast flying.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13198 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5860 times:

It will depend on the political pressures put on. As US has a strong presence in Airzona, I am quite sure Sen. McCain will push for a Non-stop to PHX. Maybe PHX, LAX, SFO, San Diego will be considered. Gotta keep those politicans happy. Probably one reason for this change was the greater restrictions with laws passed in recent years on all politicans as to riding on corporate jets where they would be a captive audience for lobbying efforts. Now they have to travel with the 'little people' facing the same frustrations as to security, delays, maybe sitting with a voter not a lobbist.

User currently offlineTheGMan From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 687 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5863 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
It will depend on the political pressures put on. As US has a strong presence in Airzona, I am quite sure Sen. McCain will push for a Non-stop to PHX

McCain already pushed for and got the non stop to PHX a long time ago.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5844 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
It will depend on the political pressures put on. As US has a strong presence in Airzona, I am quite sure Sen. McCain will push for a Non-stop to PHX. Maybe PHX, LAX, SFO, San Diego will be considered.

Umm, US flies 3x daily DCA-PHX (and once daily DCA-LAS) currently as part of the exemptions to the DCA Perimeter Rule...

You might want to visit this thread for an on-going discussion (with lots of facts and figures):
US Senate Debates DCA Perimeter (by LAXintl Jun 11 2009 in Civil Aviation)

bb


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5810 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 10):
Umm, US flies 3x daily DCA-PHX (and once daily DCA-LAS) currently as part of the exemptions to the DCA Perimeter Rule...

That actually begs an interesting question that I'm not sure of the answer to...

Could US use the LAS slot for another out-of-perimeter flight under this bill?

If so, would they? Certainly LAS isn't what it once was.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5780 times:

I think they probably would be able to. Since it gives you the ability to move service around to any beyond-perimeter destination, I assume it would also give you the ability to move exemptions you already have.

Although I do have to say, even late into last year they were pretty good about operating a 757 on the route. Its a 319 now, so it may really not be as important as it once was.

NS


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5762 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Could US use the LAS slot for another out-of-perimeter flight under this bill?
If so, would they? Certainly LAS isn't what it once was

I would think US would probably rather switch a PHX-DCA flight to somewhere in CA rather than the LAS flight. The O&D from LAS to WAS is certainly worthy of some n/s out of DCA. If US could carry traffic n/s from SFO or SAN, they should be able to easily eliminate one of the trips out of Sky Harbor.

bb


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5755 times:

I thought DCA banned the SFO, PDX and SAN flights....  confused  The one thing I do not get is if those routes are banned, then how did SEA make the cut?


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5726 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I thought DCA banned the SFO, PDX and SAN flights.... The one thing I do not get is if those routes are banned, then how did SEA make the cut?

This thread seems to be predicated on the assumption that one of the 2 proposed bills actually passes and service from DCA is opened up. Since US Airways has the most slots at Reagan, the discussions here center on what US might do IF things change...

(Again, I would visit the other thread on the topic for information and background.)

bb


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5698 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I thought DCA banned the SFO, PDX and SAN flights.... The one thing I do not get is if those routes are banned, then how did SEA make the cut?

(Unfortunately the other thread has turned into a discussion of light-rail transportation in the Washington DC area; maybe it will return the core topic eventually.)

I think when the exemptions were handed out, they tried to do it sort of "regionally"; thus SEA got an exemption that was supposed to take care of the Pacific Northwest (including PDX) and LAX was won by TWA originally, and was intended to take care of California. Of course the hubs of SLC, PHX, LAS and DEN also got exempted service so the rest of the west was going to have plenty of connections to choose from. That's my take on how it was done...

bb


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5671 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 13):
The O&D from LAS to WAS is certainly worthy of some n/s out of DCA.

Five years ago, I would have, without a doubt, agreed with you. But isn't the O&D from LAS to NYC equally worthy of a n/s to SOMEWHERE in the New York area?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5621 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
(Unfortunately the other thread has turned into a discussion of light-rail transportation in the Washington DC area; maybe it will return the core topic eventually.)

The core topic over there is legislative regulation at DCA, and the factors involved in it.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
But isn't the O&D from LAS to NYC equally worthy of a n/s to SOMEWHERE in the New York area?

Yeah, if it could operate without getting tooled by competition.

The reality is, they'd need several flights a day to EWR or JFK to really make it work, and both Continental and JetBlue are better set up at this time to make that go.

If US had enough spare 757s to do that, I think they could make a go of it. But A319s once or twice a day aren't going to work against CO or B6's hub operations.

I'm honestly surprised they don't have service to at least one of them anyway. But its certainly a sign of this economy that they don't.

NS


User currently offlineTheGMan From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 687 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5558 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
That actually begs an interesting question that I'm not sure of the answer to...

Could US use the LAS slot for another out-of-perimeter flight under this bill?

If so, would they? Certainly LAS isn't what it once was.

I am not sure that this is possible

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):

Yeah, if it could operate without getting tooled by competition.

I think that post was directed at a service to LGA

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):

If US had enough spare 757s to do that, I think they could make a go of it. But A319s once or twice a day aren't going to work against CO or B6's hub operations.

Could a 321 make it? I think so, US West is taking on several more 321s this year, I think.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5497 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
The reality is, they'd need several flights a day to EWR or JFK to really make it work, and both Continental and JetBlue are better set up at this time to make that go.

I agree. The situation in D.C. is that they are operating an uncompetitive frequency (compared to UA's 3 to IAD or WN's 3 to BWI) to a superior airport. Maybe that's a recipe for success. Maybe, though, one of the following is also true:

1) It's only successful because of the paucity of service to the west coast ex-DCA

2) It's not the best use of the slot, but it's the only way US can use it.

If one of those two things is true, it's easy to imagine the flight moving if that's possible.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineJopavon From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 304 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5363 times:

Is it possible to launch a DCA-MEX nonstop or is there any restriction associated to the perimeter or immigration issues?


Come fly Mexicana, to Mexico!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5357 times:



Quoting Jopavon (Reply 21):
Is it possible to launch a DCA-MEX nonstop or is there any restriction associated to the perimeter or immigration issues?

DCA doesn't have an immigration/customs facility suitable for a commercial flight.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5352 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 15):
Since US Airways has the most slots at Reagan, the discussions here center on what US might do IF things change...

If US has the most slots at DCA, how is that fair to the rest of the carriers who currently do serve the airport? F9 could do real well with adding another slot or two out of DEN, IMO....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5311 times:
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Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
thus SEA got an exemption that was supposed to take care of the Pacific Northwest (including PDX)

...and Alaska. There seems to be a tremendous connection traffic between DCA and the State of Alaska.


25 Cubsrule : What alternative do you suggest? Reauctioning all of them?
26 AirframeAS : Of course!
27 Gigneil : It could do it from the long runways at EWR or JFK, yeah... Brings up an interesting point of discussion with re: DCA as well. I wonder if US will wa
28 SeaBosDca : Another interesting issue is that US, no doubt with PHX and LAS leisure routes in mind, has configured its 757s in a high-density, Y-heavy configurat
29 C680 : No, DCA does have international flights (AC pre-clear in Canada) My fantasy of a BA LCY-DCA with a pre-clear at SNN lives on!!!!
30 TheGMan : You know, I am not sure I have ever seen a 321 in DCA. Really? Currently there are 3 configurations of 757 in the US fleet they are: 8F/185Y 12J/164Y
31 SANFan : All cx have slots at DCA, it's just that US has (essentially) a hub there so they have more. With the exeption of AS and F9, etc., who have only a si
32 Gigneil : You know what I miss is the FLL hub... it actually did really make sense, they just needed to stick with it. Funny thing is, they reconfigured those i
33 SNCntry32 : Arent all of US slots Northwest slots to begin with? I thought Northwest had the most slots in DCA?? Or am I remebering something wrong?
34 TheGMan : Yeah, that is exactly what I was talking about. All the US East birds have 8F (with the exception of the TATL ones) and the US West 752s have 14F.
35 KingAir200 : Not all of them, though they do lease several NWA slots. NWA is the 4th largest slot-holder in DCA, a holdover from the days of the DCA minihub.
36 SNCntry32 : Id like to know more about the DCA minihub.. Are there threads about it? Anything online?
37 Pylon101 : How could it possibly be if any A 319, 320 and 321 (with some restriction) can make it. From Moscow SU A-320 makes SVO-MAD easily in 5.5. hours and S
38 Wn676 : We used to send a 321 to DCA from PHX, but on the return the aircraft would route through CLT, which I'm guessing is because they couldn't make the n
39 ScottB : Actually, the East A321's were originally delivered with 26 F seats. The 757 fleet is starting to get a bit tight at US, especially with frames conti
40 LACA773 : With the short runway problems @ DCA as well as US wanting to use the 321s on transcons and were not completely happy with them because of the perfor
41 COERJ145 : Actually they are using 2 A320s and 1 A319 on todays DCA-PHX flights. US has always had A321-200s. The ones for west flying are equipped with IAE-V25
42 Post contains links Thestooges : The NW mini-hub in DCA existed in the early 90's, '91 or '92 I think, and came about after NW purchased/ took over a lot of Easterns gates/ slots aft
43 LACA773 : Thank you for the clarification, COERJ145. I knew they had different more powerful engines, I just wasn't sure on where to get the information on tha
44 Flighty : US fleet of A321s of whatever type so far has nothing to do with DCA transcon flights. It is easy enough to land at DCA with a 321 which US has done f
45 Gigneil : I was concerned about that. The situation may in fact rise that US isn't in a position to capitalize on the legislative changes, if they are made. Th
46 SeaBosDca : Not quite true. Multiple airlines use 738s. And A320s may count as well depending on your definition of "long range." I think you're right that A321s
47 Flighty : Okay, sorry yes the 738 along with the 737-700. About the A320, I am not too sure if US Airways runs them to PHX maybe? Otherwise, California or SEA
48 Racers22 : Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Republic Airways Holdings own many of the slots that US Airways currently uses at DCA? I thought they acquired a
49 TheGMan : Not saying they don't have aircraft that can make it there, I was trying to point out that they don't have any spare planes sitting idle. It would ta
50 FLYjoe : Yeah they did, but I believe US has 1st dibs to purchase the slots back should Republic choose to sell them.
51 Cubsrule : There's no shortage of 319s. Are they the best plane for the job? Arguably not. Are they suitable? Absolutely.
52 Ardent15 : Yep. In fact, AA's BOS-LAX flights (which is a considerably longer distance than DCA-LAX) are 738s.
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