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KLM Confirms 7 ERJ 190s  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Today at Paris Air Show KLM confirmed the order of 7 x ERJ 190s from Embraer. The order was under an option in the original contract of August 2007.

Currently KLM operates 4 ERJ 190s. By the end of 2010 KLM will take delivery of 10 ERJ 190s which are replacing the outdated F-100s. All of KL ERJ 190 are configured in 100 seats.

http://www.embraer.com.br/institucio...84-Com-VPC-KLM_New_Orders-I-09.pdf

Also today at Paris Air Show Fuji Dream Airlines from Japan order 1 x ERJ 175 in addition to the 2 x ERJ 170 ordered in November 2007.

Rgs,

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

This is great news! The ERJ looks very nice in KLM's c/s, how many does KL currently have on order?

Any news on the ERJ170/175?



seemyseems
User currently offlineDALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3208 times:
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wow, correct me if I am wrong but KLM then be one the bigger operators of the type in Europe?


Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
User currently offlineAirbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

total of 17 orders, of which 13 still to be delivered.

I'm going to miss my little fokker.....



FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3369 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

According to luchtvaartnieuws.nl this is only a confirmation of the order already announced a month ago.

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=31010



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2888 times:

Thanks for the good news for both KLM and Embraer Hardi.

What about their F70 fleet (IIRC, 24 frames)? Don't they have plans to get ERJ-170/175 as replacement and also, some ERJ-145 to replace the F50 fleet?

Which services are left to KLM Cityhopper now a days?



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently onlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4695 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2878 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 5):
What about their F70 fleet (IIRC, 24 frames)?

They will stay for the time being. They are a lot younger than the F100's and have little operational issues.

Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 5):
Don't they have plans to get ERJ-170/175 as replacement and also, some ERJ-145 to replace the F50 fleet?

I wouldn't count on the 145. The 170 and/or Q400 would be more likely.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2805 times:



Quoting JRadier (Reply 6):
I wouldn't count on the 145. The 170 and/or Q400 would be more likely.

But then they will be replacing 50-seaters with 70-seaters... Are the routes operated by F50 ready for 70-seaters??



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineMMEPHX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2721 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 7):
But then they will be replacing 50-seaters with 70-seaters... Are the routes operated by F50 ready for 70-seaters??

Given the horrendous economics of 50 seat RJs it may be cheaper to operate a 70 seat Q400 at 60% capacity than an RJ. I could see a Q400 order from KLM in the future to replace the F50s. The distances they fly, flight time would likely be very comparable between the RJ and a Q400.


User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1690 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

The 7 'addiotional' E190's are replacements for the 12 Fokker 50's.

At the end of next year, KLC will operate 26 Fokker 70's, 5 Fokker 100's and 17 E190's...

F50 routes will be upgraded to F70's, while F70 routes will be upgraded to E190's (the 5 F100's must be seen as 'spare aircraft' when the F70's/E190's are unservicable).

Wouldn't count on either the E170/175 or Dash8-400's...



don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2491 times:



Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 8):
Given the horrendous economics of 50 seat RJs it may be cheaper to operate a 70 seat Q400 at 60% capacity than an RJ. I could see a Q400 order from KLM in the future to replace the F50s. The distances they fly, flight time would likely be very comparable between the RJ and a Q400.

The MRJ is covering that market portion and is likely to be the flagship of most regional fleets in Europe in the 50-100 seat segment post-2015, unless Embraer goes GTF as well. The GTF makes any turboprop almost totally useless for runs longer than 300nm.


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2215 times:



Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 8):
Given the horrendous economics of 50 seat RJs it may be cheaper to operate a 70 seat Q400 at 60% capacity than an RJ.

Horrendous economics? This are news for me. So, why ERJ145 family and CRJ100/200 sold so well all over the world?



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently onlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4695 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2158 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 11):
So, why ERJ145 family and CRJ100/200 sold so well all over the world?

Because with the cheap oil of years ago they were kind of competitive (and US passengers wanted jets, not props). Look at recent sales numbers for the 50 seat jets and you will see what he means



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2031 times:



Quoting JRadier (Reply 12):
Because with the cheap oil of years ago they were kind of competitive (and US passengers wanted jets, not props). Look at recent sales numbers for the 50 seat jets and you will see what he means

This is questionable, although I accept that we high oil prices turboprop present better economics in some sense. You have to remember that jets have lower maintenance cost, there are other factor to take into account. Anyway, the 50 seat jets may strong back in the market since oil prices are well below USD 100 and will remain in this mark for quite some time.

Rgs,


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1977 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
This is questionable, although I accept that we high oil prices turboprop present better economics in some sense. You have to remember that jets have lower maintenance cost, there are other factor to take into account. Anyway, the 50 seat jets may strong back in the market since oil prices are well below USD 100 and will remain in this mark for quite some time.

That's what I was thinking about. Oil prices felt considerably ont he last months, so 50 seats regional jets must be back again. For short runs (200-250nm), there is no doubt props are the right fit, but for longer runs, ERJs are way more confortable, fast and more efficient.



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25300 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1861 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 11):
Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 8):
Given the horrendous economics of 50 seat RJs it may be cheaper to operate a 70 seat Q400 at 60% capacity than an RJ.

Horrendous economics? This are news for me. So, why ERJ145 family and CRJ100/200 sold so well all over the world?

Fuel prices were much lower when the ERJ145 and CRJ100/200 were selling in large numbers. Low cost carriers also weren't as big a factor in many markets then. That has resulted in much lower yields on many routes which have made the 50-seat regional jets uneconomic.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1821 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Fuel prices were much lower when the ERJ145 and CRJ100/200 were selling in large numbers. Low cost carriers also weren't as big a factor in many markets then. That has resulted in much lower yields on many routes which have made the 50-seat regional jets uneconomic.

But you have to remember that there are still a lot of intra-Europe routes suitable for 50 seat jets having a strong O&D therefore with high yields. For example Luxair uses the ERJ145 for LUX-LCY I would guess the route is 100% O&D and average fares very high which would make the jet perfect for this route. There are many routes in Europe and the US with similar profile.

But your points are well taken, the scope of 50-seat jets have indeed been reduced, except for some selected routes as I said with high yields and strong O&D.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMMEPHX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1749 times:

Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 14):
That's what I was thinking about. Oil prices felt considerably ont he last months, so 50 seats regional jets must be back again. For short runs (200-250nm), there is no doubt props are the right fit, but for longer runs, ERJs are way more confortable, fast and more efficient

Oil has been artificially low for the past few months due to the overall economic malaise. Right now it's in the $70/BBL range and will likely fluctuate more, but many economists think $75-80/BBL should be the "true" cost of oil given supply/demand conditions. All this is way above the low $30's pricing we saw just a few months ago.

We've seen several airlines reduce CRJ numbers (OK, capacity cutting for all sorts of reasons) and some (CO) have even reintroduce props. Props are comparable on time/distance out to about 350-400miles then jets are generally a better call. I doubt we will see many more orders for 35-50 seat jets in the future. 70 seats is a whole different and much better economic category. I think a mix of Q400 and E190/195 would be a good mix for KLM and offer them a lot of flexibilty in matching demand/price/capacity.


In the meantime I'm looking forward to my F70 flight from AMS-BHX in a couple of weeks.

[Edited 2009-06-17 19:52:01]

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