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Will UA Ever Return To FLL/PBI?  
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

As many of you know, UA recently slashed their service from both FLL and PBI, and drastically cut MIA down to EMB-170s (with A320s in the winter). It's a bit pathetic that one of the world's largest airlines can't serve one of the largest population centers in the US, especially when at least two of their hubs (IAD/ORD) could support year-round service (if you want to push it, all of their hubs could support year-round service). So like the title says, do you think when times are better United might return to FLL and/or PBI?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4084 times:

when yields in the markets exceed cost to operate......

User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3761 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4051 times:

Theres no business traffic in Florida remember?

Love,

United Airlines


User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3956 times:

Quoting PanAm330 (Thread starter):

We still got ops pages for both airports but they are from early 2007 so who knows but its very unlikely. Remember we can't even be bothered to fly mainline to a place that was a base up until 2004  

Do watch though FLL when we take football/baseball teams down to play the Dolphins or Marlins. We had a 767 in there last year bring the 49ers in.

[Edited 2009-06-15 16:32:36]

User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3843 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

probably not.........these would be perfect for a codeshare on CO


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlinePlaneguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1210 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

Don't they currently meet this need through the US codeshare and *A feeds?


I want to live in an old and converted 727...
User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 968 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3759 times:

Great question.

UA will return to FLA under two different scenarios.

1. CO buys them.

2. They get some management that can find FLA on the map. After all business traffic has gone down significantly and therefore they NEED the feed.

No other scenarios works because they are in a DEATH spiral!



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3618 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting PanAm330 (Thread starter):
It's a bit pathetic that one of the world's largest airlines can't serve one of the largest population centers in the US, especially when at least two of their hubs (IAD/ORD) could support year-round service

More than a bit pathetic, it's extremely so. It's an embarrassment for United.

Quoting Planeguy727 (Reply 5):
Don't they currently meet this need through the US codeshare and *A feeds?

Depends what you call meeting the need. Having to change planes to get from Chicago to Miami or Ft. Lauderdale on United isn't what I call meeting the need. I am looking at a DSM-FLL/MIA vacation this winter and most flights require a double plane change- ORD and either CLT or DCA.



Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineAA757MIA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3581 times:



Quoting PanAm330 (Thread starter):
and drastically cut MIA down to EMB-170s

From ORD; I was looking for a non-stop flight for my cousin (she's 17 and deaf) only to realize that they are no longer flying non-stop to/from DEN. As someone else said, all itineraries were multi-stop, including plane changes, etc, etc.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 7):
It's an embarrassment for United.

 checkmark 

Exactly! The only reason I was even considering it is because their schedules were more convenient than AA's.


User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

UA I'm sure has enough feed to operate FLL/PBI-IAD on a 319/320. It just seems like they are not trying in certain domestic markets anymore.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3347 times:
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The PBI/FLL problem is more to do with slots at ORD. Even though United has lots of them at some point they only have so many. Many ciites on both coast get nearly hourly service from ORD and then through in all the regional cities UA needs to serve, mainline and Express. PBI was served once daily by UA for years, never enough presence.

User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3323 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 2):
Theres no business traffic in Florida remember?

There must be a strategic reason for United's leaving MIA.

They have 6 Airbus ORD-MCO, 7 Airbus IAD-MCO and 5 Airbus DEN-MCO per day. They also have 3 Airbus ORD-TPA, 3 Airbus IAD-TPA and 2 Airbus DEN-TPA per day.


User currently offlinePanam330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3285 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 10):
The PBI/FLL problem is more to do with slots at ORD. Even though United has lots of them at some point they only have so many.

That is probably one of the lamest excuses I've ever heard. You're telling me FLL/PBI aren't operated from ORD because places like CWA are of higher importance? Sorry, but I refuse to buy into that one. And let's not forget that they have IAD too - a fantastic connection point from the NE, and another reason that ORD slots have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 11):
They have 6 Airbus ORD-MCO, 7 Airbus IAD-MCO and 5 Airbus DEN-MCO per day.

Not just A32S. They've got 737s and 757s scattered every so often, mostly on weekends from what I've seen. Also, don't forget the daily 757 to SFO and the 2x A32S to LAX. MCO is quite a large station for UA, really. You'd think they'd be able to run a fairly similar schedule to FLL and/or MIA, and augment their ORD/IAD services with a daily or two to PBI.


User currently offlineMIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

I think UA gave up w/out a fight...the possibility of having more than one legacy carrier in MIA does exist. AA might have the MiAA fortress but DL I believe is the 2nd biggest domestic carrier at MIA running 95% of if it's flights on mainline aircraft to ATL and JFK with the exception of CVG. If DL can co-exist with AA why can't UA? AA runs one daily flight to IAD. Their is no way that UA cannot say that they cannot run at least one daily 320/319 and two E170 flights or 2 daily 319 flights to IAD. The same thing with DEN,SFO. Florida markets can be very different and the MCO market does not compare to say the MIA/FLL market.

It's sad to see the demise of UA from South Florida and to see it to the extent that it has gone. I understand perhaps in these times they don't know want to fly to say FLL and PBI but to completely leave the market to United Express via MIA only is pathetic (will mainline really return come Winter?). Their are still many loyal United customers who would love to see UA run at least a daily 320 to SFO, DEN from MIA. But what others leave behind...another will prosper from. That said...the answer being Virgin America...coming to South Florida (hopefully MIA) real soon if they are smart...

The same could be said about FLL and PBI...some low cost will pick up the slack sooner or later and saturate these markets with no frills low cost service to those markets left empty by UA.

My 2 Cents!



Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2797 posts, RR: 30
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

It really isn't all THAT surprising that UA left PBI and FLL. After all, JetBlue and Spirit didn't just trash yields but also had to steal pax from somewhere, and with DL and AA fighting back to retain their own market share, I'm afraid that airline was UA. MIA sees little LCC service, so I'm a bit surprised that UA shrunk so much there, but with AA so powerful there, I suppose UA decided it was best to let them have it. After all, AA has more or less left IAD, DEN, and even SFO to UA.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3276 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3183 times:



Quoting Panam330 (Reply 12):
That is probably one of the lamest excuses I've ever heard. You're telling me FLL/PBI aren't operated from ORD because places like CWA are of higher importance?

Might not be of higher importance, but it's likely higher profitability.

AA dominates MIA-ORD because of the ability to feed traffic on both ends. WN keeps yields down to FLL with their service from MDW and DEN. B6 fights 'em hard from IAD. I agree with you that it's hard to believe that UA doesn't want a presence in those markets, but apparently they don't.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32177 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3177 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 11):

There must be a strategic reason for United's leaving MIA.

United never left MIA. Their service levels to the airport are absolutely pathetic, but so be it. It's United problem that they can't make America's fifth largest market work when everybody else can, not South Florida's problem.



a.
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3151 times:



Quoting Panam330 (Reply 12):
Not just A32S. They've got 737s and 757s scattered every so often, mostly on weekends from what I've seen. Also, don't forget the daily 757 to SFO and the 2x A32S to LAX. MCO is quite a large station for UA, really. You'd think they'd be able to run a fairly similar schedule to FLL and/or MIA, and augment their ORD/IAD services with a daily or two to PBI.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
United never left MIA. Their service levels to the airport are absolutely pathetic, but so be it. It's United problem that they can't make America's fifth largest market work when everybody else can, not South Florida's problem.

The point is they still have strong service to MCO and TPA given the size of each market, so they haven't given up on Florida, just Miami.

The must be some reason (low yields, too much competition from American, or something) why they just don't have much service to MIA. I assume that decisions about where they fly to has some level of logic to it. I just don't know what the logic is.


User currently offlineJasonCRH From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 282 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3097 times:

South Florida was a MONEY LOSER for United. it ALWAYS WAS. of course, you're right, they could feed the flights, sell them out and send them out full, just as they ALWAYS did. But every single flight LOST money. Given that United had to make cuts, just like everywhere else, they cut the areas that were least valuable/strategic for them. What are they? a company where the VAST majority of its major markets and O/D traffic originages WEST of the Mississippi river. there is simply not as much high yield BUSINESS demand WEST of the Mississippi river for traffic to Florida. Could United run flights from LGA to Florida and fill them? Could they run LOW YIELD connection traffic on huge planes (or even not-so-huge) over IAD to south Florida? Of course they could, and they could fill them. BUT, the yields they will make are simply lower than other markets. these markets are NOT part of their stratetgic foot print. So, when the carrier has to make reduction, where does it reduce? in areas that are not as strategic. and for United's network, Florida simply is NOT as strategically important as it is for carriers such as Delta and Continental, carriers that are MUCH STRONGER east of the Mississipi in the Northeast than United ever has been.

Look, no carrier can be all things to all people - given limited resources, all airlines have to pick and choose their battles and know where they get the biggest return on their investments for the resources and networks they have. United's simply is NOT Florida. Same as Delta - it's simply NOT west coast (look at all the failed attempts at hubbing LAX).

This is simply something that you people dont get - airlines are in business to make a profit (or these days to lose as little as possible), and they can only do that if they maximize around their strengths and limit their weaknessess. the days when one carrier was everything to everybody are over. Get over it.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
Quoting Eghansen (Reply 11):

There must be a strategic reason for United's leaving MIA.


United never left MIA. Their service levels to the airport are absolutely pathetic, but so be it. It's United problem that they can't make America's fifth largest market work when everybody else can, not South Florida's problem.



User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3074 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
United never left MIA. Their service levels to the airport are absolutely pathetic, but so be it. It's United problem that they can't make America's fifth largest market work when everybody else can, not South Florida's problem.

 checkmark 
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 checkmark 



Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32177 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3074 times:

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 18):
This is simply something that you people dont get - airlines are in business to make a profit (or these days to lose as little as possible), and they can only do that if they maximize around their strengths and limit their weaknessess. the days when one carrier was everything to everybody are over. Get over it.

I think you are the one that needs to get over it.

I never argued that United makes money in South Florida, nor did anybody else. Obviously they do not.

That does not change the fact that reflects a huge failure in United to not be able to make such a huge market work, when every other airline can. A huge problem on United's part.

An airline can't be all things to all people, true. It doesn't change the fact that United has failed in such a large market, and it reflect poorly on United's ability to attract customers.

[Edited 2009-06-16 21:32:09]


a.
User currently offlineJasonCRH From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 282 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3056 times:

"Making a Market work". What exactly do you mean by that? You admit that UA doesnt make money. How else do you "make a market work"?

Let me go over my points again

United simply isnt, nor has it ever been, strong in the parts of the country that generate somewhat decent yields to south Florida.

Sure, they COULD flow tons of people over IAD. But the vast majority of those people have nonstops or easy access to nonstops on airlines such as JetBlue and WN. Those fares are LOW. Their yields are LOW. And having to carry a passenger on two flights instead of one flight at yields such that are that LOW will NEVER guarantee a profit.

I think you'd be surprised at how poorly many of the airlines actually do in South Florida. The only reason they keep these routes is because of their structure in the Northeast. Delta for a long time has had a much bigger presence in nyc/ the northeast than United ever had. They HAVE to have those routes to be competitive for everywhere else. United simply doesnt have that structure, they dont HAVE to have those routes. I'd bet you that MANY of Delta's nonstops form the northeast to South Florida lose money, but strategically for them those destinations are required. For United they are NOT.

What DOES United have to have? they DO have to have serve all the 'BIG markets that are important for their strategic areas. What are their strategic areas? Chicago. And then West of the Mississippi. Clearly, the DC area is important as well, but their biggest and most strategic areas are west of the Mississippi. Which routes do they fly that they absolutely must? Well, Hawaii for starters. Any carrier with huge networks in the West has to fly there. It's the West Coast's Florida.

It's all about choices and making the most of the resources and networks that you have. COULD you fill up A320's/757's to Florida from ORD, IAD, etc? sure, no doubt. does United's network give them the high yields on those routes? No. MUST they serve those routes, which lose money, to maintaint loyalty in their most strategic markets? NO.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 18):
This is simply something that you people dont get - airlines are in business to make a profit (or these days to lose as little as possible), and they can only do that if they maximize around their strengths and limit their weaknessess. the days when one carrier was everything to everybody are over. Get over it.


I think you are the one that needs to get over it.

I never argued that United makes money in South Florida. Obviously they do not.

That does not change the fact that reflects a huge failure in United to not be able to make such a huge market work, when every other airline can. A huge problem on United's part.



User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32177 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3053 times:



Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 21):
United simply isnt, nor has it ever been, strong in the parts of the
country that generate somewhat decent yields to south Florida.

That's just false.

United had a very strong operation at MIA through the early 90's until 2002.

It was not huge, but it was strong and profitable. They even started construction on what was then supposed to be the world's second largest RCC, although now that space is being taken over by Delta for a very large Sky Club.

I'll stick by what I said: it reflects very poorly on United as an airline to have a small presence in such a large market. It says that South Florida customers think poorly of the airline.



a.
User currently offlineJasonCRH From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 282 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2969 times:

Do you know that for a fact? Do you REALLY know that they were profitable all those years? Have you ever actually seen the numbers? They were NEVER as strong as AA in Miami. They were profitable, I will grant you, for a time in the mid '90s. But it started to go south by the end of the 1990's. United then had a choice to make. Invest a LOT of money in a market where they were a DISTANT number 2 (they were NEVER as big as AA there). They would have had to divert resources (planes, money, capital requirements) from markets where they were strong number 1's and in danger of losing that share. Or shore up other parts of the country where they wre a LOT stronger but had a lot more to lose - Denver, California, the Pacific. What would you do?

As I've explained, airlines have to make CHOICES as to where to be and how to spend their LIMITED resources. United, just like every carrier, had to decide where to be and where they would get the most bang for their buck. South Florida just was NOT it by the end of the 1990's.

South Florida is a nice place to visit but by the end of the 1990's/ early 2000's (ESPECIALLY after 9/11) it was a drain on UA's resources and a negative system contributor.

It's a smart business decision that UA realized this and has right-sized the company to focus on their most important markets. Just because South Florida is a big market doest not mean that UA has to have a huge presence there. It didnt work, barely did in the 1990's and is not strategically important for United's financial well-being.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 21):
United simply isnt, nor has it ever been, strong in the parts of the
country that generate somewhat decent yields to south Florida.

That's just false.

United had a very strong operation at MIA through the early 90's until 2002.

It was not huge, but it was strong and profitable. They even started construction on what was then supposed to be the world's second largest RCC, although now that space is being taken over by Delta for a very large Sky Club.

I'll stick by what I said: it reflects very poorly on United as an airline to have a small presence in such a large market. It says that South Florida customers think poorly of the airline.



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