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What If LA Bought RG From GOL Now?  
User currently offlineEastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3693 times:

Its obvious GOL is not really exploitng the VARIG Brasil brand. LAN, on the other hand eager to settle into Brazil. Wouldn't make more sense for LAN to buy the brand at a discount now and revive Varig rather than start LAN Brasil as a brand.


AA will Rise Again!
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8626 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3696 times:
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Why would a successful operator such as LAN dilute it's very strong brand by taking on the identity of a failed brand ?


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

I really do not see any chance of LAN starting LAN Brasil or buying RG. GOL already integrated RG into its operations, the operations of both are unified. Competition in Brazil is tough and it would be almost impossible for LAN to compete with giants TAM and GOL.

Azul is the airline which is growing fast in Brazil with its hub in VCP, having 4% of the domestic market. Airline business in a continental country such as Brazil would entail forming a massive domestic network which would represent an airline bigger than LAN Chile.

Rgs,


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3656 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
I really do not see any chance of LAN starting LAN Brasil or buying RG. GOL already integrated RG into its operations, the operations of both are unified. Competition in Brazil is tough and it would be almost impossible for LAN to compete with giants TAM and GOL.

Azul is the airline which is growing fast in Brazil with its hub in VCP, having 4% of the domestic market. Airline business in a continental country such as Brazil would entail forming a massive domestic network which would represent an airline bigger than LAN Chile.

Agree 100%... LAN just can't deal with brazilian market today. Azul is doing quite well, and I expect them to have at least 8-10% of market share by the end of this year, however, this does not indicates that any starter in brazilian aviation market will be as successful as they are.

As Hardi said, Brazil being a continental country would require a big network from the start, requiring at least 8-10 planes in a 3-4 months term, something very different from LAN's strategy/size in Peru, Ecuador, Argentina, etc...



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User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3656 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):

GOL, and apparently Azul, are doing quite well, and they both started very small with slim odds. LAN can learn.

Quoting Eastern023 (Thread starter):
Why would a successful operator such as LAN dilute it's very strong brand by taking on the identity of a failed brand ?

Very true. The old Brazilian aviation industry is gone, all the airlines are essentially brand new. LAN should look forward not backwards if they come into the country.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineBsbisland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 379 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3645 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
Competition in Brazil is tough and it would be almost impossible for LAN to compete with giants TAM and GOL

So we will have a duopoly forever in your view? Poor Brazil....

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
Azul is the airline which is growing fast in Brazil with its hub in VCP, having 4% of the domestic market. Airline business in a continental country such as Brazil would entail forming a massive domestic network which would represent an airline bigger than LAN Chile

You contradicted yourself..... If Azul can enter the market, why couldn´t LAN? I think you are underestimating a bit too much the size of LAN group when compared to TAM and Gol.


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3641 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
both started very small with slim odds.

I wouldn't say Azul started very small and with slim odds. They started with David Neeleman's DNA, his and Jetblue's know-how, good investment capacity, etc... After just 5 months of operations they already have a fleets of 10 E-jets, are flying to 13 brazilian cities, anc managed to catch 4% of market-share.

Regarding GOL, the market by that time was quite different from now..



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User currently offlineAsuflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3635 times:

I am very confused about VARIG and GOL. Can anyone update on the brand status of RG. Will it eventually become branded as GOL? Does RG have specific routes it flies or do G3 and RG's planes fly all the routes. RG's website no longer works, but it redirects to GOL's website.

User currently offline4EVERVARIG From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3602 times:



Quoting Asuflyer (Reply 7):
I am very confused about VARIG and GOL. Can anyone update on the brand status of RG. Will it eventually become branded as GOL? Does RG have specific routes it flies or do G3 and RG's planes fly all the routes. RG's website no longer works, but it redirects to GOL's website.

Well, GOL purchased the rights to the VARIG Brand a while ago. When GOL purchased it, the Constantino family had big plans to take advantage of VARIG name abroad yet provide a GOL level service in its international routes. GOL learned pretty fast that international service was not kids play as the new VARIG they had not only to face TAM, but big players such as Lufthansa, Air France, JAL, KLM, Korean Air, American, United, etc... Also, VARIG no longer belonging to Star Alliance, it would be fighting an uphill battle on every route. GOL tried a few European routes, but with limited resources they had no options but to give them up.

GOL is slowly phasing out the VARIG brand, because it was costing them a lot of money to maintain both VARIG and GOL brands as separate entities. Also, by phasing out VARIG, Gol no longer has to make costly payments to Fundacao Rubem Berta, the original owners of the VARIG brand, for the use of the VARIG brand.

Rumors are that the VARIG brand will eventually disappear by the end of 2010, however, amongst the VARIG loyalists circle there is a speculation that there is a group of investors that are working the backstage to bring back the VARIG brand in the near future...


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3586 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 6):
I wouldn't say Azul started very small and with slim odds. They started with David Neeleman's DNA, his and Jetblue's know-how, good investment capacity, etc... After just 5 months of operations they already have a fleets of 10 E-jets, are flying to 13 brazilian cities, anc managed to catch 4% of market-share.

Correct, Azul started with a huge financial backing, with Neelman (JetBlue - or USD 2.5 billion in revenues) plus foreign investors which own 20% of the airline. The DNA of Neeleman's former airline permeates Azul. He hired several former JetBlue executives, including finance director John Rodgerson and marketing vice president Trey Urbahn.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/19/smal...b/index.htm?postversion=2009032010

Rgs,


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3581 times:

Why would G3 hand over a recognized brand to a competitor?

User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2779 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3527 times:



Quoting 4EVERVARIG (Reply 8):
GOL tried a few European routes, but with limited resources they had no options but to give them up.

So Varig doesn't fly anywhere outside of South America anymore? Do they still have any 767s left?

I think it is sad that there is only one Brazilian airline flying long haul...


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3519 times:



Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
So Varig doesn't fly anywhere outside of South America anymore? Do they still have any 767s left?

Nope, no more flights outside S.A.

Regarind the B767 fleet, RG/G3 still have, IIRC, 5 or 6 B763s on lease... They eventually use on of them on domestic routes for crew trainning purposes. Also, there are rumors that they will be weat-leasing 2 of this frames to PumaAir as this airline plan on flying GRU-LAD and GRU-REC-LAD)...



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User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3491 times:
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Quoting Eastern023 (Thread starter):
Its obvious GOL is not really exploitng the VARIG Brasil brand. LAN, on the other hand eager to settle into Brazil. Wouldn't make more sense for LAN to buy the brand at a discount now and revive Varig rather than start LAN Brasil as a brand.

They would do better if use LA brand but all will depend on:

- What they will offer in terms of aircraft/entertainmrnt

and more important

- Hub!



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offline4EVERVARIG From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3429 times:



Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
I think it is sad that there is only one Brazilian airline flying long haul...

I agree with you my friend. I guess that as of now, the Brazilian market is setting the dust from the implosion we had a short time ago. The Brazilian airline market by itself is big enough to support more than one flag carrier. I know I am going to offend many in here by the following statement, however it will be a matter of time when TAM too will be too big for itself to be the only "mother of all airlines" and step on the wrong toes. Political winds will change and it will eventually give one of TAM's competitors enough breath to build an international network to compete head to head with JJ.

And in terms of service, Brazilian Airlines, be it RG in its glorious days, JJ and even VP had great and quality inflight service that I have yet to see in any US carrier.

For the future, I see one Brazilian carrier concentrating services to Europe, Africa and Middle East with limited services to Eastern Asia, Latin America and MIA. The other carrier would concentrate its network to the American continent, Asia and Australia with limited services to Middle East and Western Europe. However both airlines would have a strong domestic presence. I can also see a third more regional carrier with a strong domestic route, latin American connection and include a gateway at JFK or MIA.

So don't loose hope yet, my friend. I see good things coming as the airline business in Brazil matures and settles into a more professional and efficient model.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3395 times:
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Quoting United787 (Reply 11):
So Varig doesn't fly anywhere outside of South America anymore? Do they still have any 767s left?

I think it is sad that there is only one Brazilian airline flying long haul...

That's very sad. As JJ8080 said, they have still 5-6 B763, but no long haul flights. And there's space for an airline flying long-haul, specially at GIG.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3377 times:



Quoting 4EVERVARIG (Reply 14):
The Brazilian airline market by itself is big enough to support more than one flag carrier



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
And there's space for an airline flying long-haul, specially at GIG.

Agree. No doubt there is!

Sadly G3 proved everybody they still don't know how (don't "want") to do it properly. OceanAir also didn't manage to go well on GRU-MEX route and returned all B767s and the B757...
As mentioned, PumaAir is considering services to LAD with ex-G3/RG B763s, but IMO, they are just not ready for such thing and would be failing in 1 or 2 months on the route.

So, let's wait and see how it goes.... Perhaps G3 will try it again when the market recovers, but as mentioned many many times here at a.net, they'd need a totally different strategy from the one adopted on their first try.



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User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3366 times:
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Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 16):

Sadly G3 proved everybody they still don't know how (don't "want") to do it properly. OceanAir also didn't manage to go well on GRU-MEX route and returned all B767s and the B757

Because they tried to go on a " safe " market instead of develop another one. I'm sure they would be still flying GIG-MEX if they decided in favor of Rio and created a mini-hub over there.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3307 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 17):
Because they tried to go on a " safe " market instead of develop another one. I'm sure they would be still flying GIG-MEX if they decided in favor of Rio and created a mini-hub over there.

Although it seems that MEX routes are now presenting poor loads, because of the crises right? I don't know if they'd manage to get slots, but GIG-MIA or GIG-FRA would maybe have worked better..



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User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3298 times:
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Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 18):
Although it seems that MEX routes are now presenting poor loads, because of the crises right? I don't know if they'd manage to get slots, but GIG-MIA or GIG-FRA would maybe have worked better..

Ocean Air best chances were on Latin America because of AV expertise. At that time they could focus on Brazil-USA, but now is too late



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3285 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 17):
Because they tried to go on a " safe " market instead of develop another one. I'm sure they would be still flying GIG-MEX if they decided in favor of Rio and created a mini-hub over there.

OceanAir failure has to do with poor brand, lack of marketing, poor product. It is the same reason G3's RG routes did not work. It is very easy to say route Y would have worked better.

Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 18):
Although it seems that MEX routes are now presenting poor loads, because of the crises right?

All routes to/from MEX are showing poor performance. Mexico's Azur saw demand drop in 50%, IB cut MAD-MEX from 12 x week to daily, AM cut several routes and so did AM. Hotel occupancy are below 30%. Sooner or later Mexico will recover, they need our support, this disater could happen to any developing market (including Brazil).

Rgs,


User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

a little of topic. But how are WebJet and Ocean Air doing these days? Last I heard was that WebJet war growing strongly and Ocean Air shrinking. But that was before the crisis.


NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Quoting LH506 (Reply 21):
But how are WebJet and Ocean Air doing these days? Last I heard was that WebJet war growing strongly and Ocean Air shrinking.

Both are not doing well. Webjet in fact had its licence withdrawn by the authorities last week.

The airlines growing in Brazil are:

1. Azul which established its hub in VCP;

2. Passaredo which established its hub in to - Leite Lopes (RAO / SBRP), Brazil">RAO;

3. Trip which established its hub in SDU;

Azul should get about 6% or 7% of the Brazilian market by the end of the year, while the market share of TAM and GOL are both decreasing. Passaredo and Trip do not have the financial muscle of Azul which will keep growing rapidly.

Rgs,

[Edited 2009-06-17 07:08:43]

User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3252 times:



Quoting LH506 (Reply 21):
a little of topic. But how are WebJet and Ocean Air doing these days? Last I heard was that WebJet war growing strongly and Ocean Air shrinking. But that was before the crisis.

If you what, herew the link for May-09 numbers: ANAC: May-09 Brazilian Traffic Figures (by JJ8080 Jun 16 2009 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
3. Trip which established its hub in SDU;

Considering their actual newtwork, I'd say PLU is their main hub, with MAO and LDB/MGF as secondary hubs... The have only 4 flights out of SDU...

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
Webjet in fact had its licence withdrawn by the authorities last week.

Really? Didn't hear about that. So they stopped operations? Both OceanAir and Webjet numbers for May-09 seemed good.



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User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3242 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 23):
Really? Didn't hear about that. So they stopped operations? Both OceanAir and Webjet numbers for May-09 seemed good.

Sorry, I meant BRA and not Webjet!

Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 23):
Considering their actual newtwork, I'd say PLU is their main hub, with MAO and LDB/MGF as secondary hubs... The have only 4 flights out of SDU...

http://www.panrotas.com.br/noticia-t...partir-do-santos-dumont_48343.html

Rgs,


25 JJ8080 : OK, that scared me! Thanks for the news, Hardi. Went searching the web and found a lot of news related to that, some also mentioning about LDB hub ex
26 LipeGIG : Hardi, for sure their brand is not so strong, for sure their marketing was almost none, but Ocean Air had a good product, 767 with PTV. RG was anothe
27 JJ8080 : Agree. Both B763s they operated to MEX was ex-UA birds, featuring the exact same seats and amenities... It was nothing special, but wasn't a disaster
28 2travel2know : Could LA buy whatever is left of Transbrasil or VASP?
29 LipeGIG : Yes, and they could for sure make the difference. Transbrasil not, Vasp yes. But they have more problems than real assets.
30 Hardiwv : But this has nothing to do with GRU, Lipe. The failure of Ocean Air, Varig and MX are all related to many factors, MX the current crisis in Mexico, R
31 LipeGIG : Hardi, yes it's nothing to do with GRU, but in my view, if Ocean Air tried to fly GIG-MEX, considering they had GIG-CGH, GIG-BSB, GIG-SSA and GIG-CNF
32 Hardiwv : I was not aware of OceanAir domestic network, then indeed your point is valid because they could also count on feeding traffic. About MX I also think
33 JJ8080 : As LipeGIG mentioned, even if they could buy it, they'd actually be getting trouble! I agree that GIG-MEX would have worked better, however, I still
34 LipeGIG : Hardi you're not entirely not aware as the flights were not all timely (but they could do this work). If they focus on alternatives, they could obtai
35 Kiwiandrew : I do not know whether this is possible or not , but as per my original reply to the OP I have to ask why would LAN want to buy a failed brand ? in Ar
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