Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
CR7 To Q400 On SEA-YYC?  
User currently offlineBridYYC From Canada, joined Dec 2008, 14 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4893 times:

Hello,

My first post (but I replied to another post once  Smile Bear with me if this is a dumb question. So much knowledge here makes this a bit intimidating.

I'm scratching my head to try and understand what some of the business rationale would be for a plane change on a route. Horizon Air on the SEA-YYC route is swapping out CRJ-700's for Q400's.

The Q400 offers only 4 more seats, so I can't see that this is a capcity issue. Is it a range issue as that is the other noticeable difference between the planes? Do they need to move the CRJ to a longer route and can put the shorter route Q400 on this one? or could it be things like one plane performs better over the mountains than the other?

Eager to hear some of the thoughts on what may be prompting a change such as this?

Many thanks.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9667 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4878 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

QX is phasing out the CR7.

So it is a Q400, or nothing  Smile


User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

IIRC, QX is retiring the CRJ-700s soon, unless plans changed. This is probably part of the gradual changeover. Also, wouldn't the Q400 have a lower CASM on a route like this?


Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4859 times:



Quoting San747 (Reply 2):
IIRC, QX is retiring the CRJ-700s soon, unless plans changed.

I think they want to have them all phased out by the end of the year.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4852 times:

I'm flying on a QX Q400 (my first Q400 flight actually..) in August and it better be a good experience! I am hoping to get to fly in the UW Huskies plane!


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2296 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4816 times:

A Q400 has much better economics. Such a short ride the extra time the Q400 takes over the CRJ is hardly noticeable. The backlog for the Q400 shows the airlines are looking at the bottom line very carefully. Bombardier has said a further stretch of the airframe is likely given the strong order book and possibility of further sales.

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4799 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 5):
The backlog for the Q400 shows the airlines are looking at the bottom line very carefully. Bombardier has said a further stretch of the airframe is likely given the strong order book and possibility of further sales.

I hope so! The plane itself is one very nice looking aircraft, IMO!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineJetboy319 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4771 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 5):
A Q400 has much better economics.

According to the 2008 Bombardier Q400 media guide, the Q400 has better economics on flights 300NM or less (ie short-haul flying like SEA-YVR). YYC is over 400, so it's questionable that it provides better economics. Sure one could argue that the CASM is lower because of 4-6 additional seats, but how much does that help if the flights aren't full? The other disadvantage is lower-level mountain wave activity and of course summer thunderstorms over the Rockies. With the Q400s limited service ceiling, it will make for some turbulent rides for sure.


User currently offlineSuprazachair From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Feb 2004, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4672 times:



Quoting BridYYC (Thread starter):
I'm scratching my head to try and understand what some of the business rationale would be for a plane change on a route. Horizon Air on the SEA-YYC route is swapping out CRJ-700's for Q400's.

Its really only switching back to the Q400. I believe YYC went from F28 to CRJ to Q400 back to CRJ and now back to Q400. Q400's did the route exclusively for several years in the mid 2000's and only really switched back to CRJ when the F9 contract wasn't renewed.


User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

I think that the Q400 is perfect for this route, the CR7 has good capacity but is more suited for longer routes than YYC-SEA. If Horizon were to ever start YYC-PDX (probably very unlikely with AC operating that route now) than the CR7 would be a perfect fit. Plus the Q400 looks much better then the CR7.

User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4243 times:



Quoting Suprazachair (Reply 8):
Its really only switching back to the Q400.

I flew the route (SEA to YYC) in February of 2002 on the almost new Q400 at the time. The flight was extreemly comfortable and surprisingly quiet (compared to flights on older "non-Q" -100's and -300's). I have also flown the CRJ-700, and find the Q400 slightly more comfortable for the length of the flight (no dissing the CRJ, it's still a comfortable ride).

Does anyone know the flight time difference between the two aircraft on this route?



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineUSAIRWAYS321 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4164 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
I'm flying on a QX Q400 (my first Q400 flight actually..) in August and it better be a good experience! I am hoping to get to fly in the UW Huskies plane!

You'll enjoy it. I've flown the Q400 more than anything else for the past year and a half, and it's quickly become one of my favorites. Surprisingly comfortable with someone next to you, and unbelievably roomy if you get a row to yourself - easier than it sounds, as QX makes policy of on-board seat swaps before pushback so you can get a better seat.

Oh, and Huskies suck. Go Cougs!  Smile


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4147 times:



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 10):
Does anyone know the flight time difference between the two aircraft on this route?

Assume QX CRJ-700 block times were similar to AC Jazz which uses the CRJ-200 on YYC-SEA-SEA. Current block times per their published schedules:

YYC-SEA: AC 1:32, QX 1:55
SEA-YYC: AC: 1:25, QX 1:40


User currently offlineRbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4115 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 5):
Bombardier has said a further stretch of the airframe is likely given the strong order book and possibility of further sales.

How much further can they stretch this thing?


User currently offlineRbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4109 times:



Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 11):
Surprisingly comfortable with someone next to you, and unbelievably roomy if you get a row to yourself - easier than it sounds, as QX makes policy of on-board seat swaps before pushback so you can get a better seat.

Does the Q400 have balance issues that sometimes crop up on the CRJ200 and ERJ35-45?


User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2296 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

I agree the Q400 already looks long but nothing has looked as long as the good old Series 60 DC 8. The way that thing flexed on the takeoff run and when it hit turbulence was something. Talk about shake, rattle and roll. My mom who has always been a nervous flier thought it was going to snap in two.

I don't know how many more seats could be added and by how much the range will drop but someone must be asking for it.


User currently offlineSuprazachair From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Feb 2004, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4064 times:



Quoting Rbgso (Reply 14):
Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 11):
Surprisingly comfortable with someone next to you, and unbelievably roomy if you get a row to yourself - easier than it sounds, as QX makes policy of on-board seat swaps before pushback so you can get a better seat.

Does the Q400 have balance issues that sometimes crop up on the CRJ200 and ERJ35-45?

Generally no. Sometimes weight becomes an issue in the winter, but for the most part its a pretty solid workhorse.


User currently offlineThegreatchecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4034 times:



Quoting Rbgso (Reply 14):
Does the Q400 have balance issues that sometimes crop up on the CRJ200 and ERJ35-45?

In my experience, as long as the front and back zones are about equal, it does fine. If everyone is loaded forward, a few will have to go back as the Q400 is a bit nose heavy. Once you break about 50% LF, passengers can pretty much sit anywhere and most of the time this keeps things pretty spread out as most people enjoy having a row to themselves.

This all depends on how many bags and cargo is in the back, of course.

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4018 times:



Quoting Jetboy319 (Reply 7):
YYC is over 400, so it's questionable that it provides better economics. Sure one could argue that the CASM is lower because of 4-6 additional seats, but how much does that help if the flights aren't full?

If there wasn't an advantage, wouldn't QX be keeping the CRJ's? They fly some awfully long routes in that thing.

Quoting Jetboy319 (Reply 7):
The other disadvantage is lower-level mountain wave activity and of course summer thunderstorms over the Rockies. With the Q400s limited service ceiling, it will make for some turbulent rides for sure.

Unfortunately, the passengers paid for the ticket already, so there is no advantage or disadvantage in this area to an airline. Also, in my experience, turbulence over the Rockies is overblown and when it affects a Q, most of the time everyone else is complaining about the ride as well.

Of course, there will always be those goobers who say they will book away from an airline because of a bad ride they had on their last flight, but they will either forget when that airline is cheaper or will eventually realize that every airline flies through turbulence on occasion.

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3984 times:



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 18):
Of course, there will always be those goobers who say they will book away from an airline because of a bad ride they had on their last flight, but they will either forget when that airline is cheaper or will eventually realize that every airline flies through turbulence on occasion.

Having most of my flying experience travelling over the Rockies either E-W OR N-S (ie: YYC to YVR/SEA, or YYC to DEN)...it doesn't matter what kind of aircraft you are in...you will almost always have turbulence. I find the arguement that props are inherently a bumpier ride a mute point with these routes. EVERYTHING bounces...especially landing in YYC in bad weather...

The worst turbulence I have ever had was on a 757-200 from PHX to LAS (you could clearly see wingflex). The second worst (but not by much) was on an A340 from YYC to YVR! The calmest ride was YQL to YEG on a Beechcraft King Air 100...smooth as glass (not over mountains, but considerably lower flight ceiling).

I have had the pleasure of taking a **Dash 7** from YQL to YVR, and had an amazingly uneventful flight! There was little turbulence, and the lower service ceiling afforded some of the most spectacular mountain scenery I have ever witnessed. Same comfort level can be said for the Q400 from YYC to SEA, but with substancially less noise...



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineUSAIRWAYS321 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3957 times:



Quoting Rbgso (Reply 14):
Does the Q400 have balance issues that sometimes crop up on the CRJ200 and ERJ35-45?

I have been on a number of flights that were about 50% full, and on most of them, they will move 2-4 passengers from the first 4 rows to the back 4 rows.


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4329 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3895 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Jetboy319 (Reply 7):
According to the 2008 Bombardier Q400 media guide, the Q400 has better economics on flights 300NM or less (ie short-haul flying like SEA-YVR). YYC is over 400, so it's questionable that it provides better economics. Sure one could argue that the CASM is lower because of 4-6 additional seats, but how much does that help if the flights aren't full? The other disadvantage is lower-level mountain wave activity and of course summer thunderstorms over the Rockies. With the Q400s limited service ceiling, it will make for some turbulent rides for sure.

Horizon also flies the Q400 SEA-BIL-SEA twice a day. I flew that route in January at 575nm each way. In addition to passengers, we also were carrying mail and cargo. So, I suspect the economics of the plane are not based solely the number of seats filled.

Btw, I flew IAD-SAT on a Mesa Airlines CR-7 a couple weeks ago at 1181nm.
Apparently RJs are now being used as replacement aircraft on some thinner mainline routes.


User currently offlineUSAIRWAYS321 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3813 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 21):
Apparently RJs are now being used as replacement aircraft on some thinner mainline routes.

It's been that way for years.


User currently offlineSlcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3639 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3756 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 21):
Horizon also flies the Q400 SEA-BIL-SEA twice a day. I flew that route in January at 575nm each way. In addition to passengers, we also were carrying mail and cargo

Does the Q400 hold more cargo than the CRJ700?


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4329 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 3685 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
Does the Q400 hold more cargo than the CRJ700?

If I'm reading the graphs on the Bombardier web site correctly, no.

Q400 - Max Baggage Vol - 502 cu ft & Max Payload - 19112 lbs
CR-7 - Max Baggage Vol - 812 cu ft & Max Payload - 18800 lbs

I infer (perhaps incorrectly) that the QX business model involves trying to make money flying an aircraft that might only be three-quarters-full on a regular basis without subsidies.


User currently offlineAirnerd From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3572 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 21):
Apparently RJs are now being used as replacement aircraft on some thinner mainline routes.

This is the other reason QX is pulling the CR7s off routes from SEA. The CR7s have replaced much (if not most) of the mainline AS routes out of PDX. Only the busiest (and/or longest) routes out of PDX still see AS 737s.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
BA SEA-LHR Diverted To YEG On Dec 17 posted Sat Dec 22 2007 17:59:29 by CraigYEG
What To Expect: IDA-SEA On Horizon (QX) posted Wed Sep 8 2004 02:02:35 by BCAInfoSys
What Happens To The SFO-SEA Pax On 261? posted Tue Feb 1 2000 04:30:23 by UAPilot7
Flight 261...Was To Continue On To Sea! posted Tue Feb 1 2000 03:19:34 by Alaska 737-900
Strange Visitor To RDU On 6/11 posted Thu Jun 11 2009 21:28:48 by Jetpixx
Man To Live On Air Tran Plane For Month posted Mon Jun 1 2009 22:41:29 by Cartenz
US Airways Flt 20 To HNL On 5/28 posted Thu May 28 2009 23:17:31 by Skyharborshome
Equipment Sub On SEA-NRT For NW7 On 30May posted Wed May 6 2009 18:17:00 by Jetjack74
Maersk Crew Return To USA On Chartered A319CJ posted Thu Apr 16 2009 00:52:53 by SFOFlyer
Easy Way To Qualify To Preboard On WN posted Mon Apr 13 2009 07:28:10 by PROSA