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YYC-Europe Routes  
User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 259 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4788 times:

Over the last few years YYC has seen an increase in flights to Europe with the arrival of British Airways to LHR, Lufthansa to FRA, and KLM to AMS as well as AC operating LHR and FRA. The only airline left to start a direct to Europe from YYC is Air France to CDG, but I have started to wonder if there are now too many seats avialable from Europe to YYC because in addition to scheduled flights, there are also charter flights that Air Transat, Monarch, and Thomas Cook. Do any airlines make a profit from these routes and how are the load factors for these routes?

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4702 times:

YYC is way overserved to/from Europe already, and way underserved (as in zero) to/from Asia.

User currently offlineKevin From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 1145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

LH and BA are doing just fine in terms of loads AFAIK. Not sure about KL.

In addition to the airlines you mentioned you can add Air Transat who flies charters from YYC to LGW, AMS, CDG...


User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4677 times:



Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 1):

Would there by any airlines that could possibly someday start any direct to Asia routes?


User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4675 times:

There was thread recently, and I think KL was happy with their YYC loads, they usually send the A332 to YYC.


seemyseems
User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4648 times:



Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 3):
Would there by any airlines that could possibly someday start any direct to Asia routes?

Emirates is on the record as saying that they would start service to/from Calgary (if Dubai counts as Asia) if it weren't for the rigid protectionist scheme that Canada applies to protect Air Canada. Now, whether that would actually happen might be anyone's best guess.

Other than that, it would seem that a carrier such as JAL or KL would be able to make a successful integration of Calgary into a scissor hub setup at NRT/KIX/ICN.


User currently offlineAirnerd From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4572 times:

YYC is about the easiest star award ticket to find from NA to Europe.

User currently offlineEVA777SEA From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4562 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 4):
There was thread recently, and I think KL was happy with their YYC loads, they usually send the A332 to YYC.

That thread had the loads at under 50% in May, I don't buy that KL is happy with this route.


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9077 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days ago) and read 4465 times:
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Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 7):
That thread had the loads at under 50% in May, I don't buy that KL is happy with this route.

I guess the competition is too high there. LH started in 2008 and before that it was only BA and of course AC on these routes, now another carrier. makes it more difficult.
But maybe during the summer months it is getting better.
I flew the route once on LH and it was pretty packed. I had to fly via SEA to YYC to get there as the flight was oversold and not a good idea to non- rev.

wilco737



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2887 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

The strange thing to note is that Calgary is hardly an airline hub (at least in terms of serving transit pax headed to Europe) and has roughly half as many people as Denver, yet the city enjoys about double the amount of air service that Denver, a MAJOR U.S. hub by all accounts, does. Yes, Calgary is the largest metropolitan area between Toronto and Vancouver, but it nonetheless remains surprising that a city of ~1.1 million has so many flights to Europe whilst, for instance, St. Louis' ~3 million have none at all.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6493 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4219 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 4):
There was thread recently, and I think KL was happy with their YYC loads, they usually send the A332 to YYC.

No one from NW/KL (it is a joint venture flight) has ever commented on the loads on these flights. It is all speculation by A.netters.


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4196 times:
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Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 1):
YYC is way overserved to/from Europe already, and way underserved (as in zero) to/from Asia.

These days I only get to Calgary a couple of times a year, but on every visit, the Korean population seems to have increased and the francophone population seems to have shrunk. So, vis-a-vis AF service, I could see leisure-class charters to Charles de Gaulle succeeding, but I don't think there is enough business traffic to / from that airport to support *regular* AF service.

On the other hand, I can see KE filling 330s at YYC.  yes 


User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 420 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4155 times:
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Air France won't fly to YVR or YYC, because their partner, KLM already does.

BA84


User currently offlineFlyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4139 times:

I love how some people claim that Calgary is over-served to Europe...how can one substantiate this?

YYC-Europe is one of the highest yielding markets Canada-Europe, and is definitely not overserved by any means... otherwise why would airlines keep adding service?

Yet, people here claim YYC-Asia is underserved without knowing the figures for demand to Asia from the YYC market...


User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4122 times:



Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 7):
That thread had the loads at under 50% in May, I don't buy that KL is happy with this route.



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 10):
No one from NW/KL (it is a joint venture flight) has ever commented on the loads on these flights. It is all speculation by A.netters.

My mistake  Smile

I thought it would become popular amongst KL, as Calgary being popular with petrol companies etc, and KL being popular with companies through their BlueBiz program.



seemyseems
User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4066 times:



Quote:
but it nonetheless remains surprising that a city of ~1.1 million has so many flights to Europe whilst, for instance, St. Louis' ~3 million have none at all.

Well look at where Calgary is located only an hour's drive away from the Rocky Mountains and hosts many world class events through out the year. In the winter people from Europe come to ski and in the summer for the Stampede so it makes it fitting that we have many European routes. While St. Louis doesn't have as much to offer like Calgary does. Population doesn't really matter when it comes to choosing routes.


User currently offlineHeathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4048 times:

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Thread starter):
The only airline left to start a direct to Europe from YYC is Air France to CDG

What do you mean the ONLY airline? Legacy airlines ALONE leave AY, SK, TK, MA, OK, IB, TP, OA, AZ, LO, OS, LX, SN and BD.

YYC doesn't need to have all these direct flights because of alliance connections. AC alone puts you all over the world with a connection in either YYZ or YVR

[Edited 2009-06-21 09:58:20]

Quoting BA84 (Reply 12):
Air France won't fly to YVR or YYC, because their partner, KLM already does.

YYZ is just one example of AF and KL serving the same place.

[Edited 2009-06-21 10:00:34]

User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 420 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3997 times:
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Quoting Heathrow (Reply 16):
Quoting BA84 (Reply 12):
Air France won't fly to YVR or YYC, because their partner, KLM already does.

YYZ is just one example of AF and KL serving the same place.

Don't compare Toronto with Calgary. That's like comparing Aberdeen with London. The demand for Calgary-Paris isn't there, which is why Air Transat covers the leisure market once a week.

BA84


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3957 times:
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Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 9):
has roughly half as many people as Denver, yet the city enjoys about double the amount of air service that Denver, a MAJOR U.S. hub by all accounts, does.

Are you sure that's correct?

I know Denver's urban sprawl is greater than Calgary's but it has about the same trans-continental road traffic and railroad traffic. But Denver International Airport, in addition to being a hub for two airlines -- like Calgary -- is also the focus city for a third airline. United and United Express by themselves have 70 gates in Concourse B . And Denver attracts tourists who stay in town rather that driving off to the mountains -- unlike Calgary. Plus, in Denver the numbers in trans-continental traffic hubbing through the airport is greater than in Calgary.

Okay, that said, how Calgary compares to Denver has nothing to do with Albertans flying to Europe or Asia.


User currently offlineHeathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3941 times:



Quoting BA84 (Reply 17):
Don't compare Toronto with Calgary. That's like comparing Aberdeen with London. The demand for Calgary-Paris isn't there, which is why Air Transat covers the leisure market once a week.

BA84

With the amount of traffic that goes through YYC, it's more like MAN with LHR. Yes, it is not the same, but for you to simply say that AF won't fly a route because KL is on it is false.


User currently offlineMindscape From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3867 times:



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 19):
With the amount of traffic that goes through YYC, it's more like MAN with LHR. Yes, it is not the same, but for you to simply say that AF won't fly a route because KL is on it is false.

It is not false. AFKL network strategy is to use the strengh of each carrier, redispatching destination that can be better served by a carrier than the other. Of course major world cities are served by both KL and AF, but after merger, destinations as KUL, TPE, CTU to name a few are served by KL, and SCL, EZE, SGN by AF.
For Canada, there is also the Canada-France bilateral agreement that prevent AF to serve the Western part of Canada, hence KL serving YVR and YYC.


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3860 times:



Quoting KGAIflyer (Reply 11):
These days I only get to Calgary a couple of times a year, but on every visit, the Korean population seems to have increased and the francophone population seems to have shrunk

Not that the Franco-Albertain community was ever that big, but outside of Québec, most French-Canadians feel very little kinship with France. So, even if the French population were nil in Alberta (which, for all intents and purposes, it is), AF could still have a go at YYC due to the healthy business sector in YYC. However, I think Air France/KLM prefer to strategically fly to various destinations, rather than have both duplicate service everywhere, especially at smaller stations.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 9):
The strange thing to note is that Calgary is hardly an airline hub (at least in terms of serving transit pax headed to Europe) and has roughly half as many people as Denver, yet the city enjoys about double the amount of air service that Denver, a MAJOR U.S. hub by all accounts, does

Yes, but you also have to remember that while population does play an important role in determining the amount of service a city gets, the city's importance in the country is also a factor. Calgary, in terms of it's importance to the Canadian economy would see it placed no lower than 4th place (behind Toronto, Montréal, and Vancouver and some would argue that as natural resources become more important in the future, Calgary could actually be the second most important city economically in Canada). Denver or St. Louis, while larger cities, could definitely not be considered as economically imperative to the US; I would say it's not a stretch to not even count them in the top 10, in terms of their relative importance to the US economy vis-à-vis Calgary to the Canadian.

Furthermore, Calgary, as a global centre for the natural resources industry (which, while comprising other aspects, is largely the oil and gas industry), sees more high-yielding passengers than many cities of similar or larger size in the US. So while it may be a 'small' city by American standards with a 'small hub' (12 million passengers a year would place it somewhere in the Top 40 by US standards), it has a lot to offer airlines

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1887 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3700 times:
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FYI, I checked the loads for KL AMS-YUL for end of june for a possible non-rev (then on to the US) but the Y is oversold and J is relatively full for most days.


Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineBakersdozen From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3700 times:



Quoting LH423 (Reply 21):
Calgary, in terms of it's importance to the Canadian economy would see it placed no lower than 4th place (behind Toronto, Montréal, and Vancouver and some would argue that as natural resources become more important in the future, Calgary could actually be the second most important city economically in Canada).

From what I've heard Calgary is 1st in the west, ahead of Vancouver for corporate head offices and likely ahead of Montreal in importance to the Canadian economy due to their natural resource sector. Although my guess would be they are fairly toe-to-toe and concenrate on different areas so a direct comparison is unfair to each.

"Calgary has now surpassed Vancouver by a wide margin as Western Canada's leading head office centre. Montreal, Canada’s second most important head office mecca, has been losing ground to both Toronto and Calgary as it inched up only 0.4% to 36,893. The study says activity is concentrated in four cities, with Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, and Vancouver accounting for 38% of Canada's population and 73% of the nation's head office employment last year." http://content.monster.ca/10295_en-CA_p1.asp


User currently offlineKGAIflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3475 times:
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Quoting BA84 (Reply 12):
Air France won't fly to YVR or YYC, because their partner, KLM already does.

Is it solely that?

Or could it also be the large presence of Shell Corporation in both Amsterdam and Calgary?


25 Aidanoc5793 : Doesn't Flyglobespan fly to YYC from DUB?
26 Hawaiian763 : During the summer they operate direct to DUB as well as MAN, GLA, and LGW
27 DavidYYC : Yes, direct flight on Wednesdays....
28 Heathrow : McLennan, Falher, Jean Côté, Guy, and Girouxville Alberta (the area where I presently am residing) are mainly franco-albertain, regradless of the s
29 Evolv : Calgary has its europe routes because of oil. All of the business traffic goes to YYC. Also, Calgary is a rich city, a higher precentage of its citize
30 DavidYYC : In addition to the above arguments about business and tourism; also Calgary (YYC) serves more then just the city itself. People who live in many of th
31 LH423 : Yes, but I was just responding to the point that AF would be less likely to fly to YYC than other carriers because there aren't many francophones in
32 Chinook747 : this route just started on May 3rd. Let's give it a chance before we start saying that KLM is not happy with the loads. Exactly, the demand for the r
33 BO__einG : I believe Belair also returns this summer for ZUR-YYC twice or so a week. This city really is in a advantageous position geographically and economical
34 LongHauler : Exactly. Airlines know precisely how many people wish to fly from Calgary to Asia. If demand were there, flights would be there. It is not a decision
35 Viscount724 : YYC (and YEG) have had direct service to Europe since the 1950s when their population was closer to 200,000 than today's 1 million plus. Both cities
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