Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Longstanding Problems At ASA  
User currently offlineMats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 620 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2966 times:

In the last pages of Air Transport World, there is always a bar chart of customer complaints and mishandled bags for US carriers. The company with the longest "bar" is always Atlantic Southeast. They also usually have the greatest number of IDBs.

It seems that they have been near the bottom of the rankings for a decade. In fact, I can remember them mishandling my own bag on a nonstop flight.

My question is: why have they not improved?

When other carriers face too many lost bags or IDBs, they usually work to correct the problem: fix a bag system, pad schedules, hire employees and equipment. If there are too many IDBs, they reduce the overbooking margin.

The poor service is probably a reflection of inept and/or rapidly changing management, lack of funding, lack of support, and unmotivated staff. But that must be an over-simplification. Is there something about ASA that is so deeply-rooted that it cannot be fixed?

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIAD51FL From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 350 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2932 times:

ASA can only fix 1/3 of those problems. Delta mainline runs the hubs & larger cities, reservation system, and pretty much controls staffing levels as they dictate what they pay ASA to run an outstation.

Delta mainline does all the bag unloading, transfering, and reloading at the hubs and some of the larger cities. ASA has no control over their employees. The only issue ASA would be at fault for is if an ASA ran outstation mistags, misloads, or noloads a bag. 80% Delta / 20% ASA.

Delta controls the reservation system and overbooks the flights based on previous data. Believe me the ASA agents have no say on when/if flights are overbooked. This is 100% Delta issue.

ASA stations have a budget based on what Delta pays them...therefore capping staffing levels to 3-4 agents per flight. The bigger the station the more they are allocated and the more staff they can have. 90% Delta issue / 10% ASA issue (as they sometimes need to work on their staffing models)

So your complaint should go to Delta, not ASA. I am not saying ASA doesn't have issues....all airlines do, but most of the blame for the issues you brought up go on Delta.

Chris



Enjoying the view of KIAH approach end of 27. 29.9758015, -95.2695694
User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2884 times:



Quoting IAD51FL (Reply 1):
So your complaint should go to Delta, not ASA. I am not saying ASA doesn't have issues....all airlines do, but most of the blame for the issues you brought up go on Delta.

I'm going to second this. Delta should be getting all the flap for ASA's customer service problems in the areas of IDB's and baggage. Both issues are contributed to ATL more than any other station in ASA's system which ASA does not ground handle. ASA didn't do much better when they did handle it but at least now it's squarely on Delta's shoulders.

Delta has taken the stance that they're going to oversell every flight out of ATL and hope enough people mis-connect.

Baggage is finally starting to get under control with the new scanning technology Delta has implemented but they're still understaffed in ATL which still causes problems.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22678 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2780 times:



Quoting IAD51FL (Reply 1):
So your complaint should go to Delta, not ASA. I am not saying ASA doesn't have issues....all airlines do, but most of the blame for the issues you brought up go on Delta.

If it's all (or even mostly) Delta's fault, why isn't OH as bad as EV?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAvconsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2770 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
If it's all (or even mostly) Delta's fault, why isn't OH as bad as EV?

Actually, OH usually trails EV.


User currently offlineMats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Okay, but why does the problem disproportionately affect ASA flights? If Delta is responsible for short-staffing and overbooking, shouldn't all Delta and Delta Connection flights be affected?

User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2618 times:

Another point to add to the great ones here is that DL has recently cut the number of stations run by ASA. Some, I believe, are even run by other regional carriers. Considering Delta's stance on strong performance numbers, who do you think will take priority on a 20 minute turn? An ASA flight or the flight from the ground crew's own company?

User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12199 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2618 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Mats (Reply 5):

Okay, but why does the problem disproportionately affect ASA flights? If Delta is responsible for short-staffing and overbooking, shouldn't all Delta and Delta Connection flights be affected?


I'm guessing the vast amount of ASA flights in ATL vs Comair



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10319 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2591 times:



Quoting NorCal (Reply 6):
Another point to add to the great ones here is that DL has recently cut the number of stations run by ASA. Some, I believe, are even run by other regional carriers. Considering Delta's stance on strong performance numbers, who do you think will take priority on a 20 minute turn? An ASA flight or the flight from the ground crew's own company?

If I'm not mistaken, any carriers that have taken over ops from ASA (Pinnacle, here in FSM, for example) only have DL/NW flights to operate. It's not like CO or UA or someone is handling the DCI flights on the ground. As far as ATL is concerned, I doubt if DL agents go back and forth between mainline ops and DCI ops during the day. The trouble with ATL is that it's ATL and all that entails and always has. When I worked at outstations, in ops and cargo, we always called ATL "the black hole" and with good reason.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2591 times:



Quoting Mats (Reply 5):
Okay, but why does the problem disproportionately affect ASA flights? If Delta is responsible for short-staffing and overbooking, shouldn't all Delta and Delta Connection flights be affected?

Not necessarily true. Keep in mind that during IROP situations, DL has the con. Mainline flights generally take precedent over DCI flights.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineTinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2560 times:



Quoting DurangoMac (Reply 2):
I'm going to second this. Delta should be getting all the flap for ASA's customer service problems in the areas of IDB's and baggage. Both issues are contributed to ATL more than any other station in ASA's system which ASA does not ground handle. ASA didn't do much better when they did handle it but at least now it's squarely on Delta's shoulders.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Delta essentially just make the former ASA employees in ATL Delta employees so they have more control? Or did they fire all the ASA employees and bring in their own? Point being is if its the same actual people, obviously the problem will persist.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10319 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2554 times:



Quoting Tinpusher007 (Reply 10):
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Delta essentially just make the former ASA employees in ATL Delta employees so they have more control? Or did they fire all the ASA employees and bring in their own? Point being is if its the same actual people, obviously the problem will persist.

Well, they couldn't fire them, per se...........ASA is owned by Skywest. DL people did take over that operation, tho......just as DL folks took over the OO operation at B concourse in SLC, above and below wing.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineTinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2531 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 11):
Well, they couldn't fire them, per se...........ASA is owned by Skywest. DL people did take over that operation, tho......just as DL folks took over the OO operation at B concourse in SLC, above and below wing.

So, essentially they just made those same employees Delta employees?



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10319 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2503 times:



Quoting Tinpusher007 (Reply 12):
So, essentially they just made those same employees Delta employees?

I really don't know. I guess it depends on what Skywest decided to do with them....fire them or lay them off.

In SLC's case, they ARE DL mainline employees, just moved over to the B concourse. Of course, I suppose some of those people that were losing their Skywest jobs could have hired on with DL.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

I will go ahead and comment. I worked with them in ATL during our wort time I believe.

Quoting Mats (Thread starter):
When other carriers face too many lost bags or IDBs, they usually work to correct the problem: fix a bag system

Was done to an extent. Back in 2006, the old Eastern bag room on C was restarted to have all the bags come to a central location vice sending them from the spine and relying totally on on-line/off-line transfers. The was a challenge in itself. The belt broke down about 2 times a day for hte first couple months. Some days, the sheer volume of bags would be so crazy the you couldn't even read tags to pull them off.

Quoting Mats (Thread starter):
pad schedules

As stated by others. No control over flight schedues. All decided by Mother D. From what i've seen, flights are pretty paded as it is. The problem is as the day progresses, we will have late inbounds which will obviously screw with an outbound flight and it's pretty much a domino effect. The one a/c and one delay can cause 4 flights to be delayed. A/C swaps is pretty common but there are only so many a/c that we can do that with.

Quoting Mats (Thread starter):
hire employees and equipment

Again, check. When the bagroom was re opened we brought on roughly 300 new hires in the space of 6 months to man the new schedules. We also re-configured a lot of the zones which required extra manning. Zone coordinators went away which some would say was a downfall but the position was before my time so I can't really comment. A lot of money was put into the OPS between 2006 and 2007. More than Delta had ever done (talking about SkyWest).

Quoting Mats (Thread starter):
If there are too many IDBs, they reduce the overbooking margin.



Quoting Mats (Thread starter):
changing management, lack of funding, lack of support, and unmotivated staff

Upper management stayed the same for the most part. What I will say is that ACS went down a bit. We had guys coming in off the street as supervisors and ramp managers with zero airport experience. Sure, they had managerial experience elsewhere but it's a different ball game. This was also due to the fact of the mass hiring that was going on to keep the new system running. Funding had been an issue for many many years from what I can grasp. It wasn't until Sky West came onboard that we finally saw new GSE equipment and adequate gate/ flight tracking systems (hand helds on the tugs).

Quoting Mats (Thread starter):
But that must be an over-simplification

Not really.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 8):
As far as ATL is concerned, I doubt if DL agents go back and forth between mainline ops and DCI ops during the day. The trouble with ATL is that it's ATL and all that entails and always has. When I worked at outstations, in ops and cargo, we always called ATL "the black hole" and with good reason.

They don't. They bid for the zone and that's where they work for the 6 months until the new bid comes out.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2334 times:



Quoting Tinpusher007 (Reply 10):
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Delta essentially just make the former ASA employees in ATL Delta employees so they have more control? Or did they fire all the ASA employees and bring in their own? Point being is if its the same actual people, obviously the problem will persist.

ASA employees were given priority in the hiring process but they were not guaranteed a position from my understanding.

In SLC when DL took over the B concourse, OO had to furlough about 300 employees but DL only had to hire 50 because they said they were so over staffed.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2289 times:



Quoting Tinpusher007 (Reply 10):
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Delta essentially just make the former ASA employees in ATL Delta employees so they have more control? Or did they fire all the ASA employees and bring in their own? Point being is if its the same actual people, obviously the problem will persist.

Again, a very broad statement and we can't really verify that. Remember this was back in 2007 when the transition was official. Since then, these guys could have bit for anywhere in ATL. Not just C and D. And there are junior legacy DL rampers that are working the DCI fligths.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10319 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2272 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 14):
More than Delta had ever done (talking about SkyWest).

Remember that in that time frame, while DL still had owneship of ASA that they were financially strapped, leading up to the bankruptcy.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22678 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2188 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 8):
The trouble with ATL is that it's ATL and all that entails and always has. When I worked at outstations, in ops and cargo, we always called ATL "the black hole" and with good reason.

That was really what I was driving at. It's much more an ATL problem than a DL problem.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2172 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 17):
Remember that in that time frame, while DL still had owneship of ASA that they were financially strapped, leading up to the bankruptcy.

Well 8 years is a long time. If they really wanted to, it wouldn't have killed them to negotiate leases on new GSE equipment. The whole situation was pretty pathetic to think that this is your main connection carrier in your largest hub. Many ASA employees thought that things were going to change when DL took over but not so.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):
That was really what I was driving at. It's much more an ATL problem than a DL problem.

That's what I never understood. The layout of the airport itself is genius IMO. They got it right in 1980. Parallel runways and concourses 2 minutes apart Granted, the entire bag system in Atlanta is pretty ancient and it simply can't handle the volume of bags that pass through each day. I do remember an article last year about DL/ H-Jack going into a $100M project to update the entire thing. What's the progress on that?



What gets measured gets done.
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22678 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2109 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):
That's what I never understood. The layout of the airport itself is genius IMO. They got it right in 1980. Parallel runways and concourses 2 minutes apart Granted, the entire bag system in Atlanta is pretty ancient and it simply can't handle the volume of bags that pass through each day.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The design is great for pax and great for taxi times. Bag handling might be the Achilles heal, and short of hiring a bunch more staff, I'm not sure there's a good solution.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10319 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2040 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):
Well 8 years is a long time. If they really wanted to, it wouldn't have killed them to negotiate leases on new GSE equipment. The whole situation was pretty pathetic to think that this is your main connection carrier in your largest hub. Many ASA employees thought that things were going to change when DL took over but not so.

Good grief, WE weren't even getting new GSE equipment in that time period. Certainly no new orders for any. Some of the new diesel stuff we got was ordered and put in the budget long before the BK. You have to remember that basically, DL has always been a very conservative company and will use a piece of equipment until the wheels fall off to save a buck. At cargo in SLC, we had to fight to get anything even remotely new or we had to "borrow" it. Of course, cargo's wants were always put on the back burner.

I think ATL's problems are that the airport was fine for the needs of the 80's and even part of the 90's but was and is having a difficult time keeping up with any of the expansion, since. Certainly, when the airport was designed in the 70's, no one thought of any of the int'l. expansion that it has seen, let alone domestic and regional.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Weather Related Problems At JFK Or DCA Today? posted Wed Dec 24 2008 09:27:38 by AT
Problems At Chambery Airport? posted Sat Dec 20 2008 13:50:13 by Cwldude
AF Problems At JNB? + SA Question posted Mon Oct 27 2008 08:04:23 by Flymad
MH Problems At PER posted Mon Oct 13 2008 22:02:31 by QF744FAN
B737 Problems At Sterling. posted Mon Sep 15 2008 08:50:55 by Alessandro
Problems At Chicago ORD posted Sat Sep 13 2008 08:40:13 by Bullpitt
First Air Flap Problems At YOW posted Mon Feb 25 2008 06:27:03 by CanadianNorth
Discussion: Solution Of Problems At LAX posted Thu Feb 14 2008 18:38:31 by Kaitak744
AA B777 Problems At ORD 1/1/08 posted Fri Jan 4 2008 03:41:32 by Richardw
Fog Causing Problems At UK Airports 21/12/07 posted Fri Dec 21 2007 11:10:34 by Jrfspa320