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15-20 A330/A340s For Aerolineas Argentinas  
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10642 times:

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=16990

That's what the government of Argentina declared.

No such announcement at Airbus yet.

Is it the end of the dispute between Argentina and Grupo Marsans ?

A340 = A340-300 ? A340-600 ?

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10614 times:



Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
A340 = A340-300 ? A340-600 ?

Maybe they'll buy them from an airline / leasing company.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12595 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10539 times:

I think President Kirchner used the phrase "national dignity" in relation to AR's need for new aircraft.

I can just picture her negotiating with Grupo Marsans:

"It won't be easy, you'll think it strange
When I try to explain how I feel
that I still need your planes after all that I've done

You won't believe me
All you will see is a girl you once knew
Although she's dressed up to the nines
Wanting 767s from you*

I had to let it happen, it had to change;
couldn't stay all its life down at heel, looking out of the hangar,
staying out of the air

So I chose nationalisation
Running around, buying every share
But nothing impressed you at all
I never expected it to

Chorus:

Don't cry for me, Grupo Marsans
The truth is, we never left you
All through our wild days
Our mad existence
We'll keep our promise
Don't keep your distance

And as for 320s and as for 330s,
I never invited them in;
though it seemed to Airbus that we had a deal,

They are illusions
They are not the solutions they promised to be
The answer was here all the time
I love you and hope you love me

(*well, she doesn't have to be accurate!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hopefully the new AR will have a considerably more imaginative livery!


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31420 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10499 times:
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Wiki says they have seven A330-200s and three A340-300s on order, so could that be "10" of the "15-20"?

User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10466 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Wiki says they have seven A330-200s and three A340-300s on order, so could that be "10" of the "15-20"?

I wonder why they'd be ordering A340-300s? Commonality perhaps? For the S. America-OZ routes? Are these new build A340s as I thought AY got the last new build A340-300E...



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineViasa From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 1898 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10352 times:

MSN 1031, 1034, 1039, 1042 and 1133 are the first five A330-223 who will find it's way to Aerolineas Argentinas. All was ordered by Grupo Marsans but Air Comet will not take the planes.

At the moment I have NO confirmation for this information.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31420 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10311 times:
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AR placed an order for 4 A340-200s, 2 A340-300s and 6 A340-600s in 1999.

According to FlightGlobal, the A340-200s came from PA and the two A340-300s were on a 12-year lease from Airbus. The six A340-600s could be converted to A340-300s is AR wished.

Airbus' own records only show the six A340-200/A340-300 orders the Wiki claim for 7 A330-200s and 3 A340-300s does not appear to have a source.

EDIT - Thanks, Viasa. That helps explain where the planes are coming from.

[Edited 2009-06-22 12:39:23]

User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10311 times:

Even considering I still have doubts if they will really manage to do so, It's good the se AR with such big plans....

Considering their network and necessity, I'd say the best mix would be 6 A332s, 6 A343s and 4 A346s... However, it's not clear if all the birds will be factory new, and also if factory new A343 is viable.... I see tham going for factory new A332s and A346s together with 2nd hand A343s...

Their narrow-body fleet replacement plan seems to be also doable, and well planned. The first raplacements would retire the 732 and M80 fleet, leaving 735s for a second stage.. The E-190 combined with 73G are the perfect fit for both domestic and Argentina-LatAm markets.. They could eventually consider 738s or 739ERs for higher demand routes within LatAm...

Their current fleet:
AR: A342 (4), A343 (2), 732 (12), 735 (17), 73G (2), 744 (3), M80 (2).
AU: M80 (16)



100 146 319/20/21 332 722 732/3/4/5/G/W/8/H/9 742/3/4 752/3 762/3 772/W BE2 BET E75 CNJ CR2 D10 F27 F50 ER4 LRJ M11 M80
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10038 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 7):
and also if factory new A343 is viable.

IIRC there are actually two lines at TLS for the normal widebodies :

- one for the A332, A333 and A343
- one for the A345 and A346

and each line can produce and combination of the planes it's designated for the "older" one is currently only making A330s but a couple of A343 could be thrown down it if required.

If these are coming from Groupo Marsans I wonder if they'll ever firm any of the massive order they've announced twice the includes A330 A350 and A380s?


User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9949 times:

Would they be prudent to not go after A340's but add the new A330-300.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8658 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9873 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 9):
Would they be prudent to not go after A340's but add the new A330-300.

It can't fly to Australia or S. Africa due to ETOPS restrictions. Does it even have the legs to fly EZE-Europe?


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9651 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 10):
Does it even have the legs to fly EZE-Europe?

Airbus website shows A333's range as being 5.650nm.... EZE-MAD (as for Great Circle Mapper) is a 5.433nm run. Considering this info, I'd say the A333 would be a marginal plane for EZE-Europe runs, making it not the ideal plane for AR..

The A343 would be a strong candidate than, since they need a 270-290 seater to fill the gap between the A332 and A346.

[Edited 2009-06-22 17:49:26]


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User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8503 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9634 times:
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AR needs A340-300 not A330's for their Southern long routes to Ausralia. A330-300 would work to Miami, Mexico and JFK. Argentina needs a private AR with Argentine ownership so things can be blamed on the foreinors.

User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9587 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 12):
AR needs A340-300 not A330's for their Southern long routes to Ausralia. A330-300 would work to Miami, Mexico and JFK.

With the arrival of more A330s/A340s and the narroy-body order, their international newtwork, should, IMO, run like this

EZE-MIA A332
EZE-BOG-MEX A332
EZE-CCS A332
EZE-LIM 73G
EZE-VVI 73G
EZE-GRU 73G/A332
EZE-GIG 73G
EZE-POA E90
EZE-FLN E90
EZE-MAD A346/A343
EZE-BCN A343
EZE-FCO A342
EZE-SYD-AKL-EZE A342



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User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9262 times:

I think there will be good A340-300s in the market, AC, EK, VS, LH.. Give them a thourough heavy check at a good MRO, Tech56 update and a new interior & they'll be allright for 10 yrs.

User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5359 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9165 times:

I'd personally even though I don't no alot about AR say. Get some 332s for EZE-Europe and US runs except MAD where probably 4-5 346s which could come from QR? They were getting rid of their pretty new frames as more 777s arrived I think.The 346 could then run some of the 342 routes at times or the 342s or 332s could be used for new routes. I'm not sure that they need more 343s myself, the 2 they have are early build ones and can't make EZE-AKL with a full load I don't think.

User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8658 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8886 times:



Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 15):
The 346 could then run some of the 342 routes at times or the 342s or 332s could be used for new routes. I'm not sure that they need more 343s myself, the 2 they have are early build ones and can't make EZE-AKL with a full load I don't think.

The A346 is too much plane for AR. It's a plane that suits them for only 1 route (MAD). AR is in a tough position, where if they want an all Airbus fleet, the A343 is the only viable alternative. They're really not unlike SA.


User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8359 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 16):
The A346 is too much plane for AR. It's a plane that suits them for only 1 route (MAD).

I don't think so since they have 3 B744s ro replace... As you said, the right plane for MAD...



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User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8658 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8040 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 17):
I don't think so since they have 3 B744s ro replace... As you said, the right plane for MAD...

It doesn't exactly make a lot of economic sense to operate one type of equipment for only 1 destination which is not even slot restricted. The fact that they currently operate 3 744's doesn't mean that a large plane is what they need. AR today is only a shell of what AR used to be. EZE is for the most part one of those long and thin destinations.


User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7818 times:

Nothing confirmed yet, fellas, besides the 5 A332s correctly listed by Viasa (confirmed by ATDB).

First choice for the A340s are any brand-new -500s & -600s ntu by IT and IB. If indeed all those aircraft do make it to their intended owners, then AR may order 2-3 -600s from scratch. AR's two A343s are contracted until 2013, while in 2011 AR will have finished paying for their four A342s so those should remain in the fleet for some time to come. The six current A340s are all 1994/5-builds and until the 73Gs showed-up, were the youngest aircraft in the fleet.

Until we see some more official announcements, it would be wise not to speculate too much as to the composition of the order. Personally I think another 10 Airbus heavies will be ordered, no more than half of which would be quads.

Very nice song you wrote their Kaitak, and very true. AR would shake-off Marsans if the will was there, but I have the feeling it isn't.

Ann-yeong heseyo,

ZXV



How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7146 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 13):
EZE-MIA A332
EZE-BOG-MEX A332
EZE-CCS A332
EZE-LIM 73G
EZE-VVI 73G
EZE-GRU 73G/A332
EZE-GIG 73G
EZE-POA E90
EZE-FLN E90
EZE-MAD A346/A343
EZE-BCN A343
EZE-FCO A342
EZE-SYD-AKL-EZE A342

How about
EZE - CDG - TLV?


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7091 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 10):
It can't fly to Australia or S. Africa due to ETOPS restrictions. Does it even have the legs to fly EZE-Europe?

No but they can fly to CCS, MEX, BOG and MIA.

Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 13):
EZE-BOG-MEX A332

The only reason they fly this way is the lack of long haul plane. We may expect EZE-MEX and EZE-BOG

Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 13):
EZE-GIG 73G

They constantly used the A342 to GIG (not nowadays). AR could develop flights like EZE-SSA/REC/CNF in the near future as well as stops in Brazil for more flights to Europe.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineDCAjet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6739 times:

This order - and the reason for the radio silence with almost all parties involved: AR, Marsans, Airbus and the governments of Argentina and Spain - is what remains of that delusional order by Marsans back in 2007 for 380s, 330s, 321s, 320s and 319s - around 60 if memory serves.

It will be only for wide bodies, as in the narrow body side it seems AR is firmly in the Boeing camp with 12 737-700 joining the fleet this year.

How many and the breakdown of the order remains to be decided in the negotiations between the parties named above: Marsans wants their deposit back, the governments of Argentina and Spain want to end this drama, Airbus wants to know who is responsible here and AR needs new planes. So far, it seems the acquisition is being financed by Spain as a way to end their Latin American aviation adventures that started back in 1991... to the tune of Euro 2 billion, all coming from the Spanish taxpayers!



"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlineJJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5725 times:



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
It doesn't exactly make a lot of economic sense to operate one type of equipment for only 1 destination which is not even slot restricted. The fact that they currently operate 3 744's doesn't mean that a large plane is what they need. AR today is only a shell of what AR used to be. EZE is for the most part one of those long and thin destinations.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
They constantly used the A342 to GIG (not nowadays).

This happened becouse they used to fly EZE-GIG-MAD, correct? I'd say EZE-GIG would be better served with 2x daily 73Gs than 1x A342/A332..

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
The only reason they fly this way is the lack of long haul plane. We may expect EZE-MEX and EZE-BOG

Considering your info, then EZE-MEX would require A332.. However, considering the actual mexican market, I don't know if they'd get good loads with A332 dedicated for this route... They should eventually keep it a BOG tag for a while..

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
AR could develop flights like EZE-SSA/REC/CNF in the near future as well as stops in Brazil for more flights to Europe.

Agree 100%.... They could beat JJ and go for EZE-SSA and EZE-CNF-REC with 73G... EZE-GIG-Europe flights are also good idea, since they could get a bit of GIG unserved demand... I'd bet on EZE-GIG-FRA or EZE-GIG-FCO

Quoting Amirs (Reply 20):
How about
EZE - CDG - TLV?

I may be wrong but I don't think they are on this route...



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User currently offlineDCAjet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5493 times:



Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 23):
This happened becouse they used to fly EZE-GIG-MAD, correct? I'd say EZE-GIG would be better served with 2x daily 73Gs than 1x A342/A332..

AR stopped using GIG as a stopover on their flights to Europe when GRU opened, and this was way before the A340s. Additionally, GRU is no longer featured as a stop on flights to Europe or USA. Simply one reason: uncompetitive. It adds time and hassle to the flight.

Nowadays, AR flies 2 or 3 (depending on the day) daily flights to GIG with 735.

During the winter holidays, AR operates charters such as EZE-POA-MIA with the 340s. Not sure about this year.

Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 23):
Considering your info, then EZE-MEX would require A332

MEX and CUN are no longer served since the 310s were sent back to the lessors. It may happen again with the 332, but with the market now quite crowded with both MX and AM, it may be overkill. AR has bigger fish to fry route wise (USA, BCN, for example).

Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 23):
AR could develop flights like EZE-SSA/REC/CNF in the near future as well as stops in Brazil for more flights to Europe.

Those may work but only for the Brazilian market - meaning onwards trip to Europe. These days folks have gotten used to non stops to Europe and USA from Bs As. So why stop in Brazil? Keep in mind Argentina is AR's core market at the end of the day. And on top of that those markets may be VFR and low yield to top them off.

Regards,

L.



"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
25 JJ8080 : As I mentioned, I also think MEX isn't a good option, mainly becouse of the actual crises that country is facing. On a regular period, I don't think
26 DCAjet : It may have been a charter. GIG has not been used as scheduled stop to USA/EUROPE since the IB days (1991) - rather and wisely so, GRU was the stop.
27 LipeGIG : AR schedule changes every week but it's something like: GIG - 2/3x daily services, 4x on sundays GRU - 2 to 4x daily services, up to 5x on some weeke
28 JJ8080 : Then I'd say the last one to use GIG as a stop to Europe was Pluna, with it's MVD-GIG-MAD B763 service, that IIRC, used to run until 2007 or 2008...
29 Hardiwv : Dont forget the seasonal EZE-FLN on Saturdays and Sundays which has quite a lot of connections from SCL! As a side note, AF-KL is currently renovatin
30 JJ8080 : Just to confirm their problematic schedule plan. What would be this flight, with a Trelew stop?? A charter?
31 757GB : Hi JJ8080, I'm pretty sure that's the new route they inaugurated recently. In fact, PLUNA had everything almost ready to start flying from Trelew to
32 JJ8080 : 757GB, thanks for the information.... However, this flight must be seasonal, isnt't it?
33 DCAjet : Long gone. Part of the falling apart with Marsans/Air Comet. All 20+ MD81/82/83/88 are all based in BUE, with the majority with AU and 2 with AR. And
34 JJ8080 : I didn't say it was a creation of their IT dept... I may have failed to express myself when traying to say that it also doesn't give us the clear ide
35 LipeGIG : The days they use the A342, is to replace 3 flights with B735. The days i can find the A342 on the schedule happens to be a day with just 2 flights.
36 Post contains links JJ8080 : As per www.timetable.com.br, they have a scheduled A343 flight.... But anyway, I don't believe nothing I see regarding AR's schedule, sometimes nor t
37 LVZXV : Au contraire--the 732s are in mx far less frequently than AU's MD which virtually live in C-Checks (no joke, some have had two in under 12 months). T
38 JJ8080 : LVZXV, thanks for the information. It's good to know that we still have well-operated B732 fleets... The last memory I have af a big B732 fleet is VP
39 LVZXV : You're welcome. Yes, I remember VP. Flew on PP-SNB GIG-SSA in 2003 as scheduled A300 went tech. Flight was pretty hair-raising. Another error by Airf
40 JJ8080 : Thanks for the very complete info... So considering 7 B732s now, and their plan for additional 7 B73G utill the end of the year, probably AR's B732s
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