JJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9618 times:
Even considering I still have doubts if they will really manage to do so, It's good the se AR with such big plans....
Considering their network and necessity, I'd say the best mix would be 6 A332s, 6 A343s and 4 A346s... However, it's not clear if all the birds will be factory new, and also if factory new A343 is viable.... I see tham going for factory new A332s and A346s together with 2nd hand A343s...
Their narrow-body fleet replacement plan seems to be also doable, and well planned. The first raplacements would retire the 732 and M80 fleet, leaving 735s for a second stage.. The E-190 combined with 73G are the perfect fit for both domestic and Argentina-LatAm markets.. They could eventually consider 738s or 739ERs for higher demand routes within LatAm...
Airbus website shows A333's range as being 5.650nm.... EZE-MAD (as for Great Circle Mapper) is a 5.433nm run. Considering this info, I'd say the A333 would be a marginal plane for EZE-Europe runs, making it not the ideal plane for AR..
The A343 would be a strong candidate than, since they need a 270-290 seater to fill the gap between the A332 and A346.
Jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7824 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8941 times:
AR needs A340-300 not A330's for their Southern long routes to Ausralia. A330-300 would work to Miami, Mexico and JFK. Argentina needs a private AR with Argentine ownership so things can be blamed on the foreinors.
ZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5131 posts, RR: 11 Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8472 times:
I'd personally even though I don't no alot about AR say. Get some 332s for EZE-Europe and US runs except MAD where probably 4-5 346s which could come from QR? They were getting rid of their pretty new frames as more 777s arrived I think.The 346 could then run some of the 342 routes at times or the 342s or 332s could be used for new routes. I'm not sure that they need more 343s myself, the 2 they have are early build ones and can't make EZE-AKL with a full load I don't think.
Airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7459 posts, RR: 11 Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8193 times:
Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 15): The 346 could then run some of the 342 routes at times or the 342s or 332s could be used for new routes. I'm not sure that they need more 343s myself, the 2 they have are early build ones and can't make EZE-AKL with a full load I don't think.
The A346 is too much plane for AR. It's a plane that suits them for only 1 route (MAD). AR is in a tough position, where if they want an all Airbus fleet, the A343 is the only viable alternative. They're really not unlike SA.
Airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7459 posts, RR: 11 Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7347 times:
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 17): I don't think so since they have 3 B744s ro replace... As you said, the right plane for MAD...
It doesn't exactly make a lot of economic sense to operate one type of equipment for only 1 destination which is not even slot restricted. The fact that they currently operate 3 744's doesn't mean that a large plane is what they need. AR today is only a shell of what AR used to be. EZE is for the most part one of those long and thin destinations.
LVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 38 Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7125 times:
Nothing confirmed yet, fellas, besides the 5 A332s correctly listed by Viasa (confirmed by ATDB).
First choice for the A340s are any brand-new -500s & -600s ntu by IT and IB. If indeed all those aircraft do make it to their intended owners, then AR may order 2-3 -600s from scratch. AR's two A343s are contracted until 2013, while in 2011 AR will have finished paying for their four A342s so those should remain in the fleet for some time to come. The six current A340s are all 1994/5-builds and until the 73Gs showed-up, were the youngest aircraft in the fleet.
Until we see some more official announcements, it would be wise not to speculate too much as to the composition of the order. Personally I think another 10 Airbus heavies will be ordered, no more than half of which would be quads.
Very nice song you wrote their Kaitak, and very true. AR would shake-off Marsans if the will was there, but I have the feeling it isn't.
DCAjet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 386 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6046 times:
This order - and the reason for the radio silence with almost all parties involved: AR, Marsans, Airbus and the governments of Argentina and Spain - is what remains of that delusional order by Marsans back in 2007 for 380s, 330s, 321s, 320s and 319s - around 60 if memory serves.
It will be only for wide bodies, as in the narrow body side it seems AR is firmly in the Boeing camp with 12 737-700 joining the fleet this year.
How many and the breakdown of the order remains to be decided in the negotiations between the parties named above: Marsans wants their deposit back, the governments of Argentina and Spain want to end this drama, Airbus wants to know who is responsible here and AR needs new planes. So far, it seems the acquisition is being financed by Spain as a way to end their Latin American aviation adventures that started back in 1991... to the tune of Euro 2 billion, all coming from the Spanish taxpayers!
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
JJ8080 From Brazil, joined Aug 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5032 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18): It doesn't exactly make a lot of economic sense to operate one type of equipment for only 1 destination which is not even slot restricted. The fact that they currently operate 3 744's doesn't mean that a large plane is what they need. AR today is only a shell of what AR used to be. EZE is for the most part one of those long and thin destinations.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21): They constantly used the A342 to GIG (not nowadays).
This happened becouse they used to fly EZE-GIG-MAD, correct? I'd say EZE-GIG would be better served with 2x daily 73Gs than 1x A342/A332..
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21): The only reason they fly this way is the lack of long haul plane. We may expect EZE-MEX and EZE-BOG
Considering your info, then EZE-MEX would require A332.. However, considering the actual mexican market, I don't know if they'd get good loads with A332 dedicated for this route... They should eventually keep it a BOG tag for a while..
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21): AR could develop flights like EZE-SSA/REC/CNF in the near future as well as stops in Brazil for more flights to Europe.
Agree 100%.... They could beat JJ and go for EZE-SSA and EZE-CNF-REC with 73G... EZE-GIG-Europe flights are also good idea, since they could get a bit of GIG unserved demand... I'd bet on EZE-GIG-FRA or EZE-GIG-FCO
DCAjet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 386 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4800 times:
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 23): This happened becouse they used to fly EZE-GIG-MAD, correct? I'd say EZE-GIG would be better served with 2x daily 73Gs than 1x A342/A332..
AR stopped using GIG as a stopover on their flights to Europe when GRU opened, and this was way before the A340s. Additionally, GRU is no longer featured as a stop on flights to Europe or USA. Simply one reason: uncompetitive. It adds time and hassle to the flight.
Nowadays, AR flies 2 or 3 (depending on the day) daily flights to GIG with 735.
During the winter holidays, AR operates charters such as EZE-POA-MIA with the 340s. Not sure about this year.
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 23): Considering your info, then EZE-MEX would require A332
MEX and CUN are no longer served since the 310s were sent back to the lessors. It may happen again with the 332, but with the market now quite crowded with both MX and AM, it may be overkill. AR has bigger fish to fry route wise (USA, BCN, for example).
Quoting JJ8080 (Reply 23): AR could develop flights like EZE-SSA/REC/CNF in the near future as well as stops in Brazil for more flights to Europe.
Those may work but only for the Brazilian market - meaning onwards trip to Europe. These days folks have gotten used to non stops to Europe and USA from Bs As. So why stop in Brazil? Keep in mind Argentina is AR's core market at the end of the day. And on top of that those markets may be VFR and low yield to top them off.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
25 JJ8080: As I mentioned, I also think MEX isn't a good option, mainly becouse of the actual crises that country is facing. On a regular period, I don't think
26 DCAjet: It may have been a charter. GIG has not been used as scheduled stop to USA/EUROPE since the IB days (1991) - rather and wisely so, GRU was the stop.
27 LipeGIG: AR schedule changes every week but it's something like: GIG - 2/3x daily services, 4x on sundays GRU - 2 to 4x daily services, up to 5x on some weeke
28 JJ8080: Then I'd say the last one to use GIG as a stop to Europe was Pluna, with it's MVD-GIG-MAD B763 service, that IIRC, used to run until 2007 or 2008...
29 Hardiwv: Dont forget the seasonal EZE-FLN on Saturdays and Sundays which has quite a lot of connections from SCL! As a side note, AF-KL is currently renovatin
30 JJ8080: Just to confirm their problematic schedule plan. What would be this flight, with a Trelew stop?? A charter?
31 757GB: Hi JJ8080, I'm pretty sure that's the new route they inaugurated recently. In fact, PLUNA had everything almost ready to start flying from Trelew to
32 JJ8080: 757GB, thanks for the information.... However, this flight must be seasonal, isnt't it?
33 DCAjet: Long gone. Part of the falling apart with Marsans/Air Comet. All 20+ MD81/82/83/88 are all based in BUE, with the majority with AU and 2 with AR. And
34 JJ8080: I didn't say it was a creation of their IT dept... I may have failed to express myself when traying to say that it also doesn't give us the clear ide
35 LipeGIG: The days they use the A342, is to replace 3 flights with B735. The days i can find the A342 on the schedule happens to be a day with just 2 flights.
36 JJ8080: As per www.timetable.com.br, they have a scheduled A343 flight.... But anyway, I don't believe nothing I see regarding AR's schedule, sometimes nor t
37 LVZXV: Au contraire--the 732s are in mx far less frequently than AU's MD which virtually live in C-Checks (no joke, some have had two in under 12 months). T
38 JJ8080: LVZXV, thanks for the information. It's good to know that we still have well-operated B732 fleets... The last memory I have af a big B732 fleet is VP
39 LVZXV: You're welcome. Yes, I remember VP. Flew on PP-SNB GIG-SSA in 2003 as scheduled A300 went tech. Flight was pretty hair-raising. Another error by Airf
40 JJ8080: Thanks for the very complete info... So considering 7 B732s now, and their plan for additional 7 B73G utill the end of the year, probably AR's B732s