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History Of United's Pacific Operations  
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 6456 times:

There was an interesting thread a few months ago that focused on the history of United's trans-Atlantic operations, so I thought I would start a similar thread to discuss the history of United's trans-Pacific operations.

When did United take over Pan Am's routes, and what routes have been added since then? What is the current status of their operations and likely additional routes?

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6952 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 6446 times:

For a good account of the sale of the Pacific routes from PA to UA, read "Skygods" by Robert Gandt. He was a PA pilot who went to UA with the sale.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 6432 times:

UA purchased Pan Am's Pacific routes in 1986, but that wasn't the start of UA's Pacific operations. They were awarded nonstop rights SEA-HKG and SEA-NRT in 1983 which were UA's first international routes (other than Canada).

User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 6383 times:



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 1):
For a good account of the sale of the Pacific routes from PA to UA, read "Skygods" by Robert Gandt. He was a PA pilot who went to UA with the sale.

Excellent book. I own a copy myself. Actually, Bob Gandt went to DL after the close of Pan Am in 1991. He never took a UA position, he was transferred to JFK or MIA according to the book.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineCYAsutomo From Japan, joined Feb 2008, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6121 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
They were awarded nonstop rights SEA-HKG and SEA-NRT in 1983 which were UA's first international routes (other than Canada).

Also PDX-NRT, which was flown once a week (SEA-NRT was six times a week).


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6952 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6028 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 3):
Actually, Bob Gandt went to DL after the close of Pan Am in 1991. He never took a UA position, he was transferred to JFK or MIA according to the book.

I guess I misremembered; it's been a while since I read it, and my copy has not turned up since my last move. Thanks for the correction.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2245 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5917 times:

If you want to be a purist, you'd say UA's Pacific operations began in 1950, when UA was awarded LAX / SFO - HNL, in competition with Pan Am.

UA was allowed to add Hilo in 1967.

In 1969, UA was awarded nonstop authority from HNL to Chicago, New York, Boston, Washington, Detroit, and other cities in the Midwest / East Coast. Most of the route authority awarded in 1969 remained dormant, other than HNL-ORD and HNL-JFK; the latter route was flown until the mid 1970s with DC-8-62s.

After deregulation, UA added service from SEA to HNL, replacing Pan Am.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5897 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6):

Ya just beat me to it.
I was going to comment on UA and HNL.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offline28L28L From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5878 times:

I thought UA began SFO-HNL on 1May47? I have a pin of some sort that I received in 1997, celebrating 50 years of service to Hawai'i.

User currently offlineType-Rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5866 times:

When UA was operating the ORD-HNL route with stretch DC-8's they had a special double gate at ORD. It was decorated in a Hawaiian theme with a sign indicating "Royal Hawaiian Service". The DC-8 was parked sideways. One gate was a First Class Jetway and the next gate was a Coach Jetway.

User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

Some might not realize that United operated L-1011's from the PA Pacific acquisition.


http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/small/1/3/1/0298131.jpg

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unite...d=534583f3b84e797f6d188dc5ae2bd3a1


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5814 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
UA purchased Pan Am's Pacific routes in 1986,

What routes/aircraft did this give United?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
They were awarded nonstop rights SEA-HKG and SEA-NRT in 1983 which were UA's first international routes (other than Canada).

What did they operate these routes with? These two routes, and PDX-NRT (see below) were United's only trans-Pacific routes before purchasing PA's assets?

Quoting CYAsutomo (Reply 4):
Also PDX-NRT, which was flown once a week (SEA-NRT was six times a week).



User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5781 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
What routes/aircraft did this give United?

AKLHNL
AKLSYD
BKKTPE
PEKSHA
PEKNRT
HKGHNL
HKGSFO
HKGSIN
HKGNRT
HNLAKL
HNLHKG
HNLSYD
HNLNRT
LAXSYD
LAXNRT
MNLOSA
MNLSEL
MNLTPE
MNLNRT
MELSYD
JFKNRT
OSAMNL
OSASFO
OSASEL
SFOHKG
SFOOSA
SFOTPE
SFONRT
SELMNL
SELOSA
SELTPE
SELNRT
SHAPEK
SHANRT
SINHKG
SYDAKL
SYDHNL
SYDLAX
SYDMEL
TPEBKK
TPESFO
TPESEL
TPENRT
NRTPEK
NRTHKG
NRTHNL
NRTLAX
NRTMNL
NRTJFK
NRTSFO
NRTSEL
NRTSHA
NRTTPE

All these routes were started by UA from PA in 1986. In 1987 ORDSEL was added. UA did not begin ORDNRT service until 1992. NW had the only authority to TYO from CHI before that.

[Edited 2009-06-23 09:50:07]

[Edited 2009-06-23 10:05:48]


It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5765 times:

Addendum to the previous post, UA's first transpacific flights were HKGSEA, SEANRT and PDXNRT, started in 1983. Most were flown with 747s and L1011s bought from Pan Am. Hope these answer most of your questions. If you want more info, there are plenty of United timetables available for sale on eBay. UA never gave detailed information about aircraft types in the itineraries section of their schedules, but it's a fair guess on the A/C types (747SP, 742s, L1011s, etc.).

[Edited 2009-06-23 09:53:04]


It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5762 times:



Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 9):
When UA was operating the ORD-HNL route with stretch DC-8's they had a special double gate at ORD. It was decorated in a Hawaiian theme with a sign indicating "Royal Hawaiian Service". The DC-8 was parked sideways. One gate was a First Class Jetway and the next gate was a Coach Jetway.

I think IIRC the flight attendants even had special uniforms (Hawaiian) and special food (Hawaiian with pineapple) and those were in the days when a Hawaiian girl would greet you when you got off the airplane, put a couple of leis around your neck and a photographer would take pictures.


User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7505 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5745 times:

I belive some DC-10-30's came along,too . Of course the 747SP,too. I also heard that PA's planes were in rough shape when UA aquired them,any truth to that?


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5718 times:



Quoting United_Fan (Reply 15):
I belive some DC-10-30's came along,too . Of course the 747SP,too. I also heard that PA's planes were in rough shape when UA aquired them,any truth to that?

Correct. The primary reason Pan Am gave up their most profitable division was cost. They had no way to compete on cost with the emerging Asian carriers now competing for their business in Japan, China and Southeast Asia, nor could PA afford to rebuild the fleet to better utilize their fleet. JFKNRT was served with a 747SP, otherwise they would not have been able to fly it, as their 747s were the oldest flying at the time.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6005 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5709 times:



Quoting United_Fan (Reply 15):
I belive some DC-10-30's came along,too . Of course the 747SP,too

The PA purchase included 11 747-SPs, 6 L-1011-500 & 1 DC-10-30.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
What did they operate these routes with? These two routes, and PDX-NRT (see below) were United's only trans-Pacific routes before purchasing PA's assets?

I belive the 747-100 flew the NRT routes and I want to say the DC-10-30 flew SEA-HKG. Outside of Hawaii these were UAs only flights across the Pacific till they bought the Pacific network from PA.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5688 times:
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Quoting United1 (Reply 17):
I belive the 747-100 flew the NRT routes and I want to say the DC-10-30 flew SEA-HKG.

I thought that at one point UA did an aircraft swap with CP . CP took 3 DC-10-10s to use on the trunk YVR-YYZ where the extra gross weight of the -30 was a handicap and UA in exchange took 3 DC-10-30s to operate SEA-HKG and PDX/SEA-NRT . But I am getting a bit  old  so maybe my recollection is incorrect



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offline28L28L From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5661 times:

When did UA first begin SFO-SEL? I know that was a while after 1986.
Cheers.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6005 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5640 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 18):
I thought that at one point UA did an aircraft swap with CP . CP took 3 DC-10-10s to use on the trunk YVR-YYZ where the extra gross weight of the -30 was a handicap and UA in exchange took 3 DC-10-30s to operate SEA-HKG and PDX/SEA-NRT . But I am getting a bit    so maybe my recollection is incorrect

I remember the aircraft swap, and specifically that UA needed a plane capable of operating SEA-HKG without the weight restrictions that the 100s would have had. The 10s might have ended up on the NRT flights as well, but I'm about 90% certain that the NRT flights were started with the -100.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2245 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5619 times:



Quoting 28L28L (Reply 8):
I thought UA began SFO-HNL on 1May47? I have a pin of some sort that I received in 1997, celebrating 50 years of service to Hawai'i.

You are correct - my error!

SFO-HNL began in 1947, and LAX-HNL was added in 1950.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5495 times:



Quoting 28L28L (Reply 19):
When did UA first begin SFO-SEL? I know that was a while after 1986.

October 31, 1987. UA began thrice-weekly services from SFO to SEL on 747s. No equipment variant is given in the UA system timetables.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineFilAmAirlines From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5469 times:

United IIRC (If I read, not if I remember), reduced service to MNL later to SFO-GMP-MNL before discontinuing MNL altogether in 1997 or 1998. I wish UA would have been competitive in MNL. However, I try to avoid the NW/DL and UA for transpac flights due to lack of PTVs in Y (which is a must for me in all transpac and TATL routes from the US)


FNT is the death knell for MBS and LAN because of WN's commitment
User currently offlineDeltaCTO From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5467 times:

Some of the L-1011's UA got from PA were in a 3x4x3 configuration in Y
UA sold them to DL in 1988 - still in 3x4x3

http://www.pbase.com/jseiple2/panamseats


25 Sq_ek_freak : Did they ever fly these flights with their own metal? Or did they just opt to take up the SEL-MNL-SEL rights? It always confused me as to why UA only
26 USPIT10L : Those routes were taken straight out of UA system timetables dated from 1986. UA did not codeshare with anyone except UA Express affiliates.
27 Post contains images Viscount724 : When UA was awarded the SEA/PDX-NRT and SEA-HKG routes in 1983, they made a deal with CP Air to lease 3 CP DC-10-30s in exchange for which CP took 3
28 Timz : UA didn't get any L10s until 1986-- probably no PA 747s either?
29 Viscount724 : UA used their own 747-100s on SEA/PDX-NRT and the DC-10-30s leased from CP Air on SEA-HKG. The 741s had enough range for west coast-Japan routes.
30 RJpieces : Wow, that is a lot of routes! I assume the purchased also brought along pilots and F/As from Pan Am to United? Besides the routes purchased from Pan
31 Adambrau : I flew to MNL a few times in mid 90's with UA, the routing JFK-SFO-SEL-MNL and the aircraft was a 744 from SFO-SEL and then a DC-10 from SEL-MNL. The
32 USPIT10L : Some pilots and F/A's went with the assets to UA, but most Pan Am people chose to stay. Most of the additional routes came much. much later, like in
33 28L28L : I seem to recall UA continuing to operate the Tuesday PDX-NRT 747 flight right up until DL began PDX-NRT in March of 1987. Is that correct?
34 USPIT10L : It was removed in early 1987. DL started PDXNRT on April 1, 1987.
35 N174UA : I distinctly recall UA operating PDX-NRT twice per week - Tuesday and Thursday. Originated and terminated in ORD. 741 or 742 on the PDX-NRT. Same as
36 Olympic472 : I recall UA also flew HKG-DEL in the mid-90s. Was that authority from PanAm?
37 Malaysia : Well sadly I would still say UA dismantled the prestige of the PA pacific routes MNL is completely gone, and you look at all those MNL routes. Those n
38 Allegro : Wow ... that is so cool! I did not know they flew L-1011's! Never got to fly one of those
39 USPIT10L : Yes, PanAm's RTW authority came with the LHR assets and authorities. The flight was always daily by DL, and then by NW once DL dropped it in 2001. It
40 Olympic472 : There was no prestige on some of the routes when I flew on them, specifically SEL-MNL.
41 Tommy767 : EWR-NRT was operated by UA for a while. I'm thinking from 1991-1997ish...not positive tho.
42 United1 : If you take a look at the numbers UAs Pacific network is actually quite a bit larger today then PAs ever was in terms of ASMs, RSMs and passengers ca
43 NorthstarBoy : I heard from a friend (UA employee) once that the ex-PA 741s were in such rough shape when UA got them that they just scrapped them, he said it would
44 CYAsutomo : SEA-NRT and PDX-NRT were 747s. SEA-HKG was a DC-10-30. UA didn't have L1011s or 747SPs from Pan Am until 1986.
45 MadameConcorde : United flew to PPT at some point but not for very long. It was from LAX if my memory serves me right. I don't believe this was from the PanAm routes b
46 JohnClipper : I believe the seat maps referenced in that website are created by them and not actual PA L-1011 seatmaps.
47 LAXintl : United did not fly LAX-PPT on a scheduled basis. You might be confusing it with Continental which did on DC-10s. Over the years however UA has operat
48 MadameConcorde : Thank you. I thought I had seen United operating flights to PPT/Tahiti!
49 L1011Lover : Well I own quite a few United timetables from the 90's myself... the oldest being from 1993, then some of the mid 90's and even one of the last ever
50 USPIT10L : 2001's direct flight timetables were the only ones UA ever published that were clear on A/C types. The big system timetables never were. The fleet in
51 L1011Lover : At least the big system timetables allowed you to find out if you'll be on a 747, DC10, L1011... etc. That was good enough for the majority of the fl
52 Viscount724 : UA didn't keep the 6 L15s long, just 2 to 3 years. Your friend is wrong. As far as I know UA didn't acquire any ex-PA 741s. The only 747s that came w
53 Sparky35805 : UA did pick up some 742s from Qantas about this time period and at least 2 new deliveries.I thought all os PAs DC10s left 1983-84 in a swap with AA fo
54 PanAm92 : United received two 747-200 from Pan Am from the London Heathrow purchase
55 Malaysia : I really mean prestige as in presence, Pan Am was everywhere in Asia compared to United and give or take, I would rather fly Pan Am again over United
56 LAXintl : I'm not sure what do you mean by "presence". United Asia foot today print is significantly larger then Pan Am's was -- Just look at the Tokyo hub and
57 Olympic472 : I believe PanAm did not have Nagoya (although discontinued now), and Ho Chi Minh. Any possibility of UA bringing DEL back.
58 Sq_ek_freak : Any chance of United bringing back the UA 001 rotation that went something like ORD-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX-ORD? I'm not so sure if it was ORD or IAD in the U
59 USPIT10L : UA would like to serve India again, but as has been said many times over the last few years, UA has zero widebodies to spare right now. Once they mak
60 Post contains links DeltaCTO : You are correct!!! http://www.pbase.com/jseiple2/image/22783335 UA kept the 3x4x3 ... so did DL
61 WA707atMSP : Ho Chi Minh City was a huge station for Pan Am in the 1960s, when it was known as Saigon.
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