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VS Negotiates Up To 50 Airbus A350XWB  
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12745 times:

Source:

http://www.aero.de/Virgin_Atlantic_v...bis_zu_50_Airbus_A350_XWB_8664.htm

Virgin Atlantic is negotiating with Airbus about getting up to 50 Airbus A350 XWB, with deliveries starting in 2014. They will keep their 787 order.

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1834 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12628 times:

If this comes to fruition, we can kiss the VS 787-9 order bye-bye.


All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12642 times:

Well I wouldn't be surprised now. With yet another Boeing delay announced, how far out will their 787 deliveries be now? I would guess since they are 'keeping' their 789 order, they would probably opt for the the A350-900XWB. It would make sense and work wonderfully in their route network. Also, later they can either convert options into A350-1000XWB to replace their A340-600s. Smart move by VS.


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1079 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12611 times:

50 A350's would almost make 2009 a decent year even without a financial crisis.
I really hope Airbus gets this as a firm order in 2009.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29700 posts, RR: 84
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12555 times:
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We've been discussing this in the VS A330 thread, as well, but I am of the opinion that the A350-900XWB and A350-1000XWB could replace VS' entire current fleet and they would not need the 787-9 nor the A380-800.

Say 25 -900s and 35 -1000s.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12418 times:



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 1):
If this comes to fruition, we can kiss the VS 787-9 order bye-bye.

The article clearly states that the 787 order will not be cancelled. The A350 is considered a 747 replacement, I also can imagine that this will mean the end of the A380 order.
50 A350 and 15 787-9 (and 28 options) will mean a huge growth for VS and I don´t see the A380 fitting in.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineFcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 738 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12369 times:

'Up to' probably means 25 orders and 25 options, which may or may not be taken up!

User currently offlineSlinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 791 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 12369 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 5):
The article clearly states that the 787 order will not be cancelled. The A350 is considered a 747 replacement, I also can imagine that this will mean the end of the A380 order.
50 A350 and 15 787-9 (and 28 options) will mean a huge growth for VS and I don´t see the A380 fitting in.

And other reports from Airbus say the A380 order is still intact. If the A333s are planned to be in the fleet for 12 years, and VS order A350s then I cannot see why they need 787s ... VS currently have 38 aircraft, if all of these stories come true they'll have 77 (assuming all the current 38 are retired when these storied orders come through), I think something has to go or this is just hot air!


User currently offlineSirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 351 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12206 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Say 25 -900s and 35 -1000s.

So that would be -err - 50? Well, ...  Wink


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29700 posts, RR: 84
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12183 times:
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Quoting Sirtoby (Reply 8):
So that would be -err - 50? Well, ... Wink

Nothing says VS has to stop at 50.  Wink


User currently offlineVgnAtl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1502 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12161 times:

While it "says" the 787 orders are intact, that does not mean they will remain intact. VS could very well use the 350 negotiation as a little fire under Boeing to deliver on their 787 promises. Saying they're not going to cancel anything doesn't make sense. They simply don't need the 787, 350, 330 and 380, so something is bound to get cancelled.


Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12138 times:



Quoting Slinky09 (Reply 7):
If the A333s are planned to be in the fleet for 12 years, and VS order A350s then I cannot see why they need 787s ...

Well VS could operate the 789/359/3510 and take care of all of their needs very well. I can still see VS taking A380 when the economy turns back around, but no more than the 6 or so they have.

So...
15 firm + 28 options on 789
50 (with options) A350
6 A380
sounds like a nice looking fleet in the future for VS. They'll have all of the bases covered.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11368 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11992 times:
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Quoting EA772LR (Reply 11):
So...
15 firm + 28 options on 789
50 (with options) A350
6 A380
sounds like a nice looking fleet in the future for VS. They'll have all of the bases covered.

Don't forget about the A333.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11991 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
We've been discussing this in the VS A330 thread, as well, but I am of the opinion that the A350-900XWB and A350-1000XWB could replace VS' entire current fleet and they would not need the 787-9 nor the A380-800.

Say 25 -900s and 35 -1000s.

 checkmark 

At this time I see VS holding onto the 789 order only for negotiating status with Airbus. Personally, after the A380 and 787 delays, it would be wise for VS to hold onto those slots (just in case) until the A350XWB can prove itself.

However, if we're talking 2014 deliveries, wouldn't that be A358? I've lost track of when the various A350 models are supposed to hit the market.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11969 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Don't forget about the A333.

Oops!  embarrassed  Yes. Indeed an impressive fleet.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29700 posts, RR: 84
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11944 times:
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Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 13):
However, if we're talking 2014 deliveries, wouldn't that be A358? I've lost track of when the various A350 models are supposed to hit the market.

Yes, but I'm skeptical the A350-800XWB is going to be popular (and yes, I understand it has a strong orderbook right now). It looks like it is going to be constrained on underfloor cargo volume, it offers only 200nm more range then the A350-900XWB and as a shrink that tends to point to less then optimal economics.

I'm inclined to believe that most A350-800XWB orders will be switched for A350-900XWB orders. Also, but having the -900 and -1000, VS would be easily able to sub them for each other based on load factors (up top and below) which would offer them a bit more flexibility in fleet scheduling, IMO.


User currently offlineRj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1753 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11833 times:
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So much for the 4 Engines 4 Long Haul idea...

User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11720 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 5):
The article clearly states that the 787 order will not be cancelled.

Nor does it say that they are guaranteed to actually fly them. Given the concessions they will probably get from Boeing, and the likelihood of a fairly strong resale value they may take delivery and immediately resell them.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11623 times:



Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 17):
Given the concessions they will probably get from Boeing, and the likelihood of a fairly strong resale value they may take delivery and immediately resell them.

Yeah but even with the strong re-sale value, they would still lose money on the 789s. And if they need something the size of the 343, the 789 is much better suited to replace that than the 358. Of course, now with a possible fleet of 50 A350s, commonality of flying the A358 would more than offset the benefits of operating the 787-9. Who knows...



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11600 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 18):
Yeah but even with the strong re-sale value, they would still lose money on the 789s.

Not if they were redelivered new. DL has done just that with their 738s. The made enough money to buy their 73Gs outright.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8094 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11447 times:
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The A350 had a hell of a week in Paris, just like the A380 back in 2000 when it launched. Lets see if it is delayed too.

User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12444 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11260 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Yes, but I'm skeptical the A350-800XWB is going to be popular (and yes, I understand it has a strong orderbook right now). It looks like it is going to be constrained on underfloor cargo volume, it offers only 200nm more range then the A350-900XWB and as a shrink that tends to point to less then optimal economics.

I agree with you. The A359/A350-10 are the two airframes that would be best for VS.


Let me ask my question directly: when do A359 deliveries start? I though it was later than 2014.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11166 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 21):
when do A359 deliveries start? I though it was later than 2014.

Target is 2013.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rbus-a350xwb-aircraft-profile.html



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineSpeedyGonzales From Norway, joined Sep 2007, 706 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11165 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 21):
Let me ask my question directly: when do A359 deliveries start? I though it was later than 2014.

2013. The -900 is the first variant, followed by the -800 in 2014, and -1000 in 2015.



Las Malvinas son Argentinas
User currently offlineFlood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11044 times:

Stitch, in the 787 delay thread you alluded to potential problems or delays (based on what you're hearing) in the A350 program. Could you elaborate on this?

25 Post contains links Solnabo : From Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSLM70363120090622 Waay to go VS! //Mike
26 PlanesNTrains : I think we can kiss a LOT of 787 orders goodbye. It's going to take a while to deliver all of these new planes. It will likely be the end of the deca
27 Mir : The last two newly developed airliners, from both A and B, have had serious delays. What's to say that the 350 won't? If VS cancels their 787s now, t
28 KennyK : So where is VS going to fly all these new aircraft from and to?
29 DL767captain : Their fleet will seem very strange depending on when certain types are retired. A330, A343, A346, 744, 789, A350, and A380. That's a lot of growth for
30 Edina : And where is the money coming from???? Certainly not SQ !!
31 AirNZ : But equally, the article neither stated, nor implied, any such thing. Whilst, irrespective of what's said at any given time, any order can equally be
32 Bjwonline : Things are definitely happening over as VS. I think it's a given that the remaining A346 are gone with their funds being transferred to the recent ann
33 Astuteman : Why do you say that, out of interest? They are both very nearly the same size and capability... Rgds
34 BCAL : Considering that the current VS fleet is 35 aircraft, and they are rumoured to have ordered up to 50 A350XWBs and 10 A330s, not to mention the deferre
35 EA772LR : Well initially when I wrote that, I was thinking that the 789 would be a more optimized size for the respective seat density vs. the A358. I was thin
36 RJ111 : I couldn't read the article because it was in German. But does anyone think there's potential for VS to be bluffing, so they can get good compensation
37 BCAL : I certainly do, as indicated in Reply 34. IMHO Branson's appetite has been fuelled, simply because VS's published results are much better reading tha
38 PM : Might your rather obvious distaste for "the Bearded One", Virgin Atlantic and anything associated with them be clouding your judgement? A fleet of 50
39 JerseyFlyer : I think they will increase frequencies to a number of destinations where they currently fly 744s - for example LGW to carribean islands
40 Edina : But Singapore Airlines, 49% shareholders of VS, agree that Branson's figures are fiction too!
41 Post contains images Swiftski : Why not? Look how fast they are
42 Astuteman : It has bigger engines than the 789 and bigger wings - I'll be amazed if it doesn't have a higher OEW. The fuselage is 2 m shorter, (and 5" wider), so
43 BCAL : Mea cupla! But taking that apart, consider the facts as I can see them. VS currently has a fleet of 38 aircraft; 13 x 747-400, 6 x A340-300 and 19 x
44 Trex8 : LH 221, US 266, LX 236, QR 247 CX 261 admittedly these are 3 class with F A333s, except Cxs which is closest to VS' J setup, but I hardly see VSs pla
45 KL911 : Virgín has been interested to set up a Virgin Russia, could some of the ordered frames go there?
46 EA772LR : So basically you're saying it's a wash If you've purchased the A350 already, and you need a 270 seater, definitely don't need the 789. Which is the c
47 LifelinerOne : That was already out when they ordered the B787... Cheers!
48 Scbriml : Not to forget that they also fly from LGW. LHR slots can be acquired through a variety of means.
49 KL911 : Exactly, leisure from LGW and MAN, Business from LHR........... KL911
50 Kleiner : 1. The 787 order will be cancelled. SRB is way too frustrated with Boeing. 2. The A330 is a placeholder for the first A350s. Then A330s will be retur
51 Tiktokjake : By the time the A350s got delivered, Terminal 6, Heathrow East and the third Runway may have been completed at LHR!! Allowing EXPANSION
52 EA772LR : Yeah I'd have to agree with all your points If VS orders 50 A350s, it makes no sense in keeping the 789s IMHO.
53 AirNZ : Are you openly questioning Certified Accounts under UK law, and/or publically claiming them to be falsified? And aren't the very operative words here
54 KennyK : They will keep the A380 order as they are ideal for the Heathrow to New York route and they are a good for SRBs ego, but I don't see them getting more
55 PM : You are being disingenuous here. You don't really think that 50 A350 deliveries starting in 2014 will all be delivered by 2015/16, do you? Moreover,
56 BCAL : Virgin Atlantic chooses to use UK accounting standards, known as GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices), while Singapore Airline and other li
57 PlanesNTrains : Get in line... Perhaps, but if they are on 12 year leases, that would be a lengthy placeholder. -Dave
58 Thorben : Why? They could operate 789, A359, and A3510 side-by-side. The article also says that they'll stick to the 787 order. I doubt it will be 50 firm orde
59 Stitch : Yes, because it offered significantly better range than the A330-300 and better operating economics than the A340-300. I'm a bit worried the A350-800
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