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That Frontier Thread, Part 3  
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9116 posts, RR: 76
Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16824 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Here now part 3.

Link to part 2, if needed:

That Frontier Thread, Part 2 (by Scbriml Mar 23 2009 in Civil Aviation)

Enjoy.


It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
328 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNZblue From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 638 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16768 times:

Here's some good news to begin part two of this thread:

Frontier Airlines Reports May Net Profit of $1.1M

excerpt:

Frontier reported a consolidated operating profit of $11.7 million for the month of May 2009, compared to an operating loss of $16.5 million for the same period in 2008, and a total consolidated net income of $1.1 million compared to a net loss of $22.0 million for May 2008. Excluding special items, the Company would have reported net income of $5.6 million, or a net margin of 6.3 percent in May 2009, compared to a net loss of $4.9 million, or a negative margin of 4.1 percent in 2008. Excluding special items, the operating profit for the month was $7.6 million versus an operating loss of $2.5 million in May 2008.



It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together.
User currently offlineSunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2058 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16726 times:

Here are the route maps of Frontier, Midwest and Republic.........

http://www.frontierairlines.com/fron...t/pages/shared/largeFlightMap.html

http://www.midwestairlines.com/PlanAndBook/RouteMap.aspx

http://www.republicairlines.com/images/destinations/maps.pdf


Connect the dots..............



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16670 times:
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At least according to this thread, the Frontier/Midwest codeshare is on:

Official: F9/YX Codeshare (by Phxmkeflyer Jun 25 2009 in Civil Aviation)

I haven't seen anything about it in the press yet.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16658 times:
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There is an interesting article here. It suggests that the cancellation of DEN-GJT is in part because of the ownership and a possible loosening of Frontier's Colorado ties:

Official: F9/YX Codeshare (by Phxmkeflyer Jun 25 2009 in Civil Aviation)

"But the possibility remains that Frontier could move its corporate offices out of Denver in the sort of cost-saving tactic that's already prompted the cancellation of a couple routes -- including the one between Denver and Grand Junction, which will end in September."

I don't know if Frontier will "loosen the ties," but if the possibility of it shakes up the status quo at the City of Denver and DIA, that's a good thing.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16636 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
I don't know if Frontier will "loosen the ties," but if the possibility of it shakes up the status quo at the City of Denver and DIA, that's a good thing.

I don't think I understand how GJT cancellation related to moving corporate offices. Isn't it just that GJT isn't performing as well? Or are you/they suggesting a wholesale move to be less Colorado-centric... in which case I can also see COS losing, while keeping the ski towns for winter seasons.

It might be good for them, but for some of us, sad. Frontier's roots from 1948 go through Denver. I would imagine it would be like CO moving from LA to Houston (or originally from Denver to LA!), or AA from New York to Dallas. People don't remember it now. But I agree with you, Denver's government and press have been less than inviting. (Colorado Springs loved them! for a brief while, at least).

If hauling up roots is the plan, this begins to look like Midway moving to Raleigh. Sort of, I know there was an intervening 2 years and separate airlines. Big airlines can have big hub shifts. I worry about smaller airlines. Braniff II to MCI. Pan Am II to MIA. WestPac to Denver! None worked out well.

-Rampart

edit: added some examples

[Edited 2009-06-25 13:01:15]

User currently offlineAtomsareenough From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16613 times:



Quoting Sunking737 (Reply 2):
Here are the route maps of Frontier, Midwest and Republic.........

http://www.frontierairlines.com/fron...t/pages/shared/largeFlightMap.html

http://www.midwestairlines.com/PlanAndBook/RouteMap.aspx

http://www.republicairlines.com/images/destinations/maps.pdf


Connect the dots..............

Gosh, all that's really "missing" is the service up and down the west coast....


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16609 times:
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Quoting Rampart (Reply 5):
I don't think I understand how GJT cancellation related to moving corporate offices. Isn't it just that GJT isn't performing as well? Or are you/they suggesting a wholesale move to be less Colorado-centric... in which case I can also see COS losing, while keeping the ski towns for winter seasons.

No one is talking about moving the hub and GJT was cancelled because It was under-performing.

But the article worries about a different motive for GJT. That different motive probably does not exist but there is concern that the head office might move.

So again, if the possibility of that move shake up the status quo, I'm all for it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 16551 times:

I wouldn't blame Frontier for being rather ticked at Denver (airport and city -- and the state of Colorado as well?) and contemplating relocation. There are many places that would welcome them and appreciate the kind of company they have become. It wouldn't surprise me if priority considerations were given to "pro-Republic" locations -- whatever that means...

This is all very exciting for F9; I'd love to have the crystal ball working and tune into 2012 and see what things look like!

bb


User currently offlineF9fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 703 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 16446 times:



Quoting mariner (Reply 259):
Over the past few years, I have sensed an almost "hostile" attitude to Frontier, by DIA, the City of Denver (at least under Mayor Hickenlooper) and even from the Denver Post.

I very much doubt that Frontier will move its HQ, but I would give three big cheers if they did. And, since Republic is based at IND - well, why not?

I stress this is just personal. I have no clue if Frontier is even considering it and I have never discussed it with anyone.



Quoting SANFan (Reply 8):
wouldn't blame Frontier for being rather ticked at Denver (airport and city -- and the state of Colorado as well?) and contemplating relocation. There are many places that would welcome them and appreciate the kind of company they have become. It wouldn't surprise me if priority considerations were given to "pro-Republic" locations -- whatever that means...

This is all very exciting for F9; I'd love to have the crystal ball working and tune into 2012 and see what things look like!

I remember in ca. late 2002/early 2003, F9 made some noises about wanting more gates at DEN and the city was balking. Further, F9 argued that UA was underutalizing the gates on the east end of concourse A that they had at that time and threatened to open a hub in MCI or PIT if the city wouldn't either force UA to give up some gates or expand the concourse. Eventually, the city did get UA to cough up a couple gates and started expansion of the west end of concourse A (which I think may have been shelved short-term with UA going back to concourse B with the abandonment of Ted). At that time, F9 was in a lot stronger position then they are in now to negotiate, and they were even in a better position than UA was at the time (UA was taking their post-9/11 trip through bankrupcy then). Since Hickenlooper was elected in June 2003, there hasn't been too many complaints from the airlines at DEN, although F9 may be making some more demands trying to get a better position at the airport while in bankruptcy.

I wonder if Republic will spin off the regional operation (while keeping a controling interest) and merge YX into F9. The latter seems to be in better shape, although they could easily move the F9 HQ off of Tower Road back to the mid-west. Also, I recall that Republic was asking some modifications to the scope clause to the F9 pilot's contract which would expand the number of planes that the pilots could fly. While most speculation is that this is to get the pilots into the Embraers, YX does have a handful of 717s laying around.

It is going to be rather interesting times for F9 coming up.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 16433 times:
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Quoting F9fan (Reply 9):
I remember in ca. late 2002/early 2003, F9 made some noises about wanting more gates at DEN and the city was balking.

In 2003, Frontier was looking for more gates - specifically, they wanted the United A gates, but United would not then play ball.

In the waning days of the Webb administration, the then DIA director (Baumgartner?), gave the go-ahead to a major 10 gate expansion on A - largely for Frontier.

Everyone cheered except Frontier and Mr. Hickenlooper, who cancelled the extension as one of his first acts and sacked Mr. Baumgartner.

Things simmered because Frontier needed gates but the city refused to build the extension unless Frontier signed a long term lease - which Frontier would not do because (a) it was expensive and (b) United wasn't using their A gates much.

It came to a head and United agreed to move - after DIA forgave them a bunch of debt. And then Southwest came to DEN, and many believe Mayor Hickenlooper had a role in that.

But it simmered again later, with the C gates. Frontier needed three gates and there were three gates available on C. Frontier applied for those gates.

Frontier believed they had a deal and even published a schedule of which flights would use the C gates.

Then - it is said - Southwest went nuclear. In any event, DIA withdrew the three gates on C - saying they were to be city gates - and promptly gave them to Southwest.

At the same time, DIA announced an extension to C, and certainly gave the impression that Southwest could have as many as they wanted - without having to commit to a long term lease before the gates were built.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 16394 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
At the same time, DIA announced an extension to C, and certainly gave the impression that Southwest could have as many as they wanted - without having to commit to a long term lease before the gates were built.

This is something I do not understand... If the city did not want to deal with F9 and is expanding the C concourse for WN, that makes no sense to me.... WN doesn't need more gates, IMO....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 16384 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):
WN doesn't need more gates, IMO....

Southwest agrees with you. I believe they - and the other airlines - have asked DIA to postpone the new C extension.

But this all happened when it was generally believed that Southwest's arrival at DEN was a scorched earth victory over Frontier.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16369 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
I believe they - and the other airlines - have asked DIA to postpone the new C extension.

They're still doing construction on the extension as we speak.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 16293 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 13):
They're still doing construction on the extension as we speak.

Great Lakes is eventually going to need a new place to park.

It's all rumor, but the idea is that Great Lakes will move to C and Lynx will take over the rest of the A concourse dungeon.

I can't think of any other reason the construction continues, F9 growth?

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineKingCavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 16283 times:



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 14):
Great Lakes is eventually going to need a new place to park.

It's all rumor, but the idea is that Great Lakes will move to C and Lynx will take over the rest of the A concourse dungeon.

I can't think of any other reason the construction continues, F9 growth?

That's what I think too, but I thought I heard a plan to move Great Lakes to C. Yes, DIA is pouring concrete off the East of C, but that doesn't mean the actual concourse is being extended. The East end of A is stanchioned off right now with construction cones and the same concrete extension will occur on A. It simply gives more auxillary parking for aircraft, and when the time is right, the concourses can be extended.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 16260 times:



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 14):
Great Lakes is eventually going to need a new place to park.

We codeshare with ZK. I don't think they'll move.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineKingCavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16227 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
We codeshare with ZK. I don't think they'll move.

That's true, but they also codeshare with UA. I think it would be great if they did move so Lynx could take over their parking spots on A.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16182 times:
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Here's what Wall Street has made of the Republic deal.

On Monday/Tuesday, Republic shares - RJET - jumped 49% and jumped 10% on Wednesday. On Thursday there was a bout of profit taking (understandably) but then they shot up again 16% today:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=RJET

To put it more simply, last Monday morning, RJET was trading at about $4.25. They closed today, Friday, at $6.81.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16125 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
We codeshare with ZK. I don't think they'll move.

At the end of the day, ZK doesn't matter as much as the branded flying Lynx is doing.

Technically, ZK is a different airline and aassengers have had to change terminals for their connections to UA for years. While the connection time would increase, the misconnects wouldn't really change because they are usually due to ZK and their timeliness (or lack there of) vs UA or F9.



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineF9fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 703 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15949 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
In 2003, Frontier was looking for more gates - specifically, they wanted the United A gates, but United would not then play ball.

In the waning days of the Webb administration, the then DIA director (Baumgartner?), gave the go-ahead to a major 10 gate expansion on A - largely for Frontier.

Everyone cheered except Frontier and Mr. Hickenlooper, who cancelled the extension as one of his first acts and sacked Mr. Baumgartner.

Things simmered because Frontier needed gates but the city refused to build the extension unless Frontier signed a long term lease - which Frontier would not do because (a) it was expensive and (b) United wasn't using their A gates much.

It came to a head and United agreed to move - after DIA forgave them a bunch of debt. And then Southwest came to DEN, and many believe Mayor Hickenlooper had a role in that.

As I remember it, F9, UA, and the city came to an agreement that UA had to have so many flight ops out of each gate (I think the number was four) or else it would have to give up the gates. UA was able to hold on to the gates on the southeast side of A, which they used for Ted, while F9 got most of the gates on the northwest side of A, which they shared with CO and some charters. UA got a new RJ facility on B to placate them which I think was completed a couple years ago. With Ted gone, UA surrendered those gates, which F9 more or less took over. Also remember that UA was in bankruptcy at the time, and they could have completely pulled out of DEN, so UA was holding that over the city's head for the deal.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
But it simmered again later, with the C gates. Frontier needed three gates and there were three gates available on C. Frontier applied for those gates.

Frontier believed they had a deal and even published a schedule of which flights would use the C gates.

Then - it is said - Southwest went nuclear. In any event, DIA withdrew the three gates on C - saying they were to be city gates - and promptly gave them to Southwest.

At the same time, DIA announced an extension to C, and certainly gave the impression that Southwest could have as many as they wanted - without having to commit to a long term lease before the gates were built.

From what I understand the terminal at DEN can only handle approximately 50,000,000 passengers/year in its current configuration. It was at around 45,000,000 just before WN showed up, and with WN expanding like crazy at DEN, they are getting even closer to the magic 50,000,000. The plan was to expand the concourses when they got to that point, and WN is certainly the one growing, right now at least, at DEN.

As for WN and the city of Denver, the city was trying to lure WN back ever since they decided to open the new airport. WN's excuse is that the landing fees at DEN were running at about $20/passenger (early '00s) when they said they didn't want to fly anywhere where the landing fees were over $10/passenger. Well, when Katrina KO'd MSY, that opened up some planes and WN decided to take their first tenative steps into DEN and apparently something went right for WN since DEN is now one of their primary focus cities. Now, is it a "sweetheart" deal? I don't know and that isn't my main point. Of course, now that Republic will own both F9 and YX (with the plan to get rid of YX's 717s), it will be interesting to see what happens.

By the way, I flew WN from CLE to DEN a few days ago, and the plane was packed solid on all segments (CLE-MDW-DEN and DEN-MDW-CLE).


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15936 times:
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Quoting F9fan (Reply 20):
As I remember it, F9, UA, and the city came to an agreement that UA had to have so many flight ops out of each gate (I think the number was four) or else it would have to give up the gates.

Yes, there was a partial agreement in 2003:

http://www.denvergov.org/NewsRelease...With-United--Frontier/Default.aspx

"Tube" gates were built for Frontier and United agreed to release one of their A gates permanently and two temporarily to Frontier.

There was a second agreement, in 2006, when United finally agreed to relinquish their A gates.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/busines...ntier_airlines_take_possession_of/

"The City of Denver's agreement with United provides that United will assume its principal lease and use agreement at Denver International Airport (DIA), and for the construction of a $40 million, 38-gate regional jet facility on the east end of Concourse B at DIA, to be occupied by United Airlines and its regional partners, as well as for the construction of new ticket counters for United at a cost of $15 million."

In return, United was given considerable debt relief by DIA.

Quoting F9fan (Reply 20):
The plan was to expand the concourses when they got to that point, and WN is certainly the one growing, right now at least, at DEN.

The difference - and the point - is simply this: that DIA would not build the (Baumgartner originated) A expansion unless Frontier signed a long term lease for at least six of the gates.

They would expand C without anyone signing a long term lease, although they indicated Southwest could have as many gates as they wanted.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25687 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15936 times:
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There's an interesting - mostly positive - article in the Denver Post - with a strange headline:

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_12702220

DP: "Frontier Airlines' future up in the air"

How is Frontier's future "up in the air"? Frontier's future is suddenly more secure than it has been for a while.

What they mean, I think, is whether Frontier will keep the head office in Denver.

And there's an odd last paragraph:

DP: "But the "million-dollar question," Swelbar said, "is what happens to the keen competition between United, Southwest and Frontier at DIA" when Frontier exits bankruptcy protection this fall."

Why is that the "million dollar question"? I think SM intends that Frontier will continue to be profitable.  

mariner

[Edited 2009-06-28 00:44:49]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAzstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 629 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15874 times:

By "up in the air" I don't think they meant the negative connotation. I think they mean the future will be in the air, still flying.

User currently offlineKingCavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 15773 times:

I was just checking F9's web site and it looks like the OAG changes went through last night. SLC currently has 6 mainline a day from DEN. That will change to 6 Lynx and 1 mainline. ABQ currently has 4 mainline a day. That changes to 5 Lynx. OMA currently has 4 mainline a day, and that will change to 4 Lynx and 1 mainline. OKC currently has 2 mainline and 2 Lynx a day, and that will change to 4 Lynx a day.

This Lynx funding is probably coming from the elimination of ELP, HDN and GJT as well as the new Lynx aircraft arriving next month. This Lynx addition to SLC, OMA, ABQ and OKC i s probably freeing the Airbus for the additional frequencies that F9 just announced to LAS, PHX, SMF, FLL and MCO.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
25 AirframeAS : I am still wondering when 204 is supposed to arrive, and from whom and where.
26 Azstar : I'm not sure this is such a brilliant move. Most people are reluctant to fly any type of propeller aircraft if they have a choice. Southwest offers fu
27 KingCavalier : Maybe, but most people have no idea what type of aircraft they're flying on. I do like the increased frequencies in the markets (except for OKC, of c
28 Mariner : It doesn't seem to have hurt OKC. Is OKC much of a downsize in capacity, given the change of season? I thought the 4th flight (mainline) was just add
29 Atomsareenough : Because I believe that for the average citizens of Denver (at whom the DP article is aimed), the main issue is not Frontier's profitability, but rath
30 Mariner : Yes, I understand that, but I am not sure why the analyst quoted thinks the present situation would change. The basics of the Frontier winter schedul
31 TheGreatChecko : Oddly, this could actually be a way to strike at WN. Just stay with me here: It is quite possible that Frontier can make money on a full Q400 at the
32 AirframeAS : We were never doing that nor will we ever.
33 F9fan : Well, as for this flyer, I will choose a traditional jet (Airbus or Boeing) over a RJ or prop any day if given the choice. I think the great challeng
34 TheGreatChecko : While there may be a contingent of passengers who will book away. The great majority just go to Orbitz and look for the cheapest fare. People complai
35 AirframeAS : It is actually one of the most popular turboprops out here now, as a matter of fact!
36 TheGreatChecko : You're right, Frontier wouldn't. However, the jury is still out on Republic.
37 Mariner : Indeed, there are a lot of unknowns. I'm not quite sure why Republic would replace the Airbi with regionals, though. Augment? Sure. mariner
38 AirframeAS : Just a friendly reminder: Keep in mind that this Republic thing isn't a done deal right now. We'll know the results in about 2 months or so.
39 Mariner : I've got my fingers crossed that it happens. Some of the alternatives could be ugly. mariner
40 Post contains links KingCavalier : Interesting blog and worth the read to see this blogger's view of what is happening - http://www.swelblog.com/articles/is-...ace-of-the-us-domestic-ma
41 AirframeAS : On a lighter note: The Colorado Rockies plan on celebrating Frontier's 15th birthday at Coors Field vs. Arizona Diamondbacks on July 5th.
42 Mariner : I don't necessarily agree with the blogger's conclusions, but I think he's got the basics right. It's been a week now, there's been a lot of water an
43 Post contains links Mariner : And right at this moment, acquiring Frontier or any part of it, would add to United's headaches with the DOJ: http://www.suntimes.com/business/164...
44 AirframeAS : Not only that, you can bet your bottom dollar if F9 does merge with UA if the DOJ does allow it,the majority of F9 jobs will be slashed dramatically!
45 Mariner : You got it. mariner
46 Frontierflyer : UA just took out a loan for 150ish i think, not that I think they will use it to go shopping. UA needs all the cash they can get their hands on, come
47 AirframeAS : From who? Republic? (I'm only asking, not being sarcastic....)
48 Post contains links Mariner : Not from anyone in particular. It is in the form of bonds, available to investors, secured money which pays an interest rate - in this case, a very h
49 Post contains links Mariner : And just to set everybody's heart a'fluttering, Republic has said they are ready to buy more, if opportunity knocks: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5371770
50 AirFRNT : I don't think the Denver expansion was any sort of happy accident. Denver is a natural for a routing point for WN's efforts to break up the long haul
51 Post contains links KingCavalier : Speaking of hearts a'fluttering - A friend just sent me this link about a F9 flight crew saving a passenger's life back in March. There was a reunion
52 TSRA : I heard this right after RAH made the purchase of YX official. I thought my "sources" just were caught up in the excitement/uncertainty of the moment
53 Mariner : All we can do. But I would not fall over in shock if they added a third airline to the mix. mariner
54 TheGreatChecko : Awesome article, but man, F9 just can't win sometimes: Upchurch was the first person saved on a Frontier flight using a defibrillator after the region
55 Post contains links Sunking737 : Just a reminder that SY is for sale. Their owner Tom Petter is in jail, and they put themselves in Chap 11 last fall to avoid being placed in Chap 7
56 Post contains links Mariner : If Republic is looking for another deal - at a reasonable price - Sun Country is one of the few out there. I understand they're doing okay in bk, but
57 Post contains links KingCavalier : And this is why Frontier is a Whole Different Animal - http://www.koco.com/video/19897748/index.html
58 TheGreatChecko : That's an awesome story. It is very true that one of the best places to go into cardiac arrest is an airplane because they all have AED's and the time
59 Sunking737 : They did return to 737-800's due to high lease payments. N807SY & N808SY IIRC. They in turn took on 2 737-700 that flew with Easyjet. Stan Gadek, Cha
60 F9fan : DEN was initially designed back in '87/'88 to support three hubbing airlines on four concourses, even though by that time the origional Frontier was
61 Post contains images TxAgKuwait : DOT has some 4th Quarter 2008 market share data on their website now, and it is interesting to see how the various markets in/out of Denver have evolv
62 Mariner : I hope they are, it's good when airlines are doing well. And as long as Frontier is doing well - that is, profitable - I'm happy. I'm not sure what t
63 Post contains links AirframeAS : Here is a neat and funny tidbit from Sal, one of the spokesanimals.... http://www.frontierairlines.com/fron...0E67C13A9F38B4E5D?name=sals-letter
64 Azstar : The market share numbers do not look good for Frontier. It demonstrates that the "hometown airline" is not the favorite. There are a few markets where
65 Mariner : And yet Frontier is profitable. And if it were not for the monthly payment of about $9 million to First Data (which, happily, ends in July), would be
66 Azstar : Obviously, market share isn't everything, and profitibilty is king. However, Frontier's labor costs are considerably less than Southwest's which is a
67 Mariner : That's the trouble with using market share as a metric. United, for example, still has much more market share than Frontier. I don't know if they are
68 AirFrnt : I'm sorry. Perhaps in a two market environment that is the case, but the reality here is that Denver. Your same logic implies that F9 has been doomed
69 KingCavalier : WN has gained market share and so has F9. UA has lost market share. The Denver Post ran an article around December 08. These are the market share num
70 AirframeAS : Market share isn't everything, yet F9 is still profitable and doing real well. Actually, F9 has the lowest operating costs of the entire industry, no
71 Post contains links Mariner : Just for the record, it isn't all beer and skittles. They have also trimmed some frequencies in Denver: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...ines-w
72 AirframeAS : I thought SM said repeatedly that we did.
73 Post contains links Mariner : I think he probably means of the usual suspects - JetBlue, Airtan, Southwest, etc. - sometimes people don't include Allegiant. Anyhoo, in the first q
74 Post contains links Mariner : Just to add some background to the decision to cancel ELP: http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_12735571?source=most_emailed El Paso Times: "Passenger traffi
75 TheGreatChecko : From what I have heard, the flight did relatively well numbers wise. I surmise dropping ELP had to do with the low yields required to maintain the pa
76 Mariner : I hear somewhat differently, at least in terms of load factor. But yes, for the rest I agree. It is incumbent on SM to send the aircraft where they c
77 Post contains links KingCavalier : Frontier continues to knock it out of the ballpark. They had a record load factor in June of 89%. That's an increase of 1.8 points over June 2008. Lyn
78 AirframeAS : It was really hard to non-rev in June...nearly impossible! Great to see that Frontier continues to beat the odds!!!! Awesome!!!! And oh.....Happy Bel
79 Post contains links Mariner : In the midst of the birthday fun - and that great June load factor - here's a question - is Airtran miffed? I've been waiting for some Airtran reactio
80 AirframeAS : IMO, I think that is going to change. The partnership with AirTran could come to an end next month, I am betting... with Republic in mind... But that
81 Mariner : That's what might stop them. They'd be looking at about $300 million. But hey, they can afford it. mariner
82 AirframeAS : That is what I am hoping!! But the question is if they are willing to give up $300 million for a competitor?? I don't think they would want to do tha
83 Mariner : They offered over $400 million for Midwest. They can surely afford it, and there are all sorts of ways they could finance it without having to put up
84 AirframeAS : So, tomorrow is a big, BIG day for F9 in bankruptcy court. I believe, as discussed, Republic puts in it's sponsorship plan before the court. I wonder
85 Post contains links Mariner : I made a long post about this week-end, on Yahoo, called "waiting for the Fat Lady to sing." http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/St...9239&tid=1643&mid
86 AirFrnt : Depending on how the court structures it, we may not know anything about other participants until the final bids come in. Possibly. I don't think Air
87 AirframeAS : I think the tone from the other employees seem to be thinking the same thing. And I feel the same way. Nobody wants to lose their jobs. Same here, I
88 Briguy1974 : I can not find where the contracts with UA is discussed. UA can not be happy with one of its regional partners becoming a competitor for it at DEN. Do
89 Post contains links KingCavalier : I don't know if it would be any different than when Republic flew for Frontier about a year ago. The way that got around it then was to fly it as Rep
90 Post contains links Mariner : That is discussed here, in an interesting debate: http://marketplace.publicradio.org/d...eb/2009/07/13/am_republic_airways/ Marketwatch: "The small a
91 Briguy1974 : I understand that Republic has contracts with most majors...the issue I raise is with Frontier at DEN specifically. I just do not understand why UA wo
92 AirframeAS : Unless the contract between Republic and UA states otherwise, Republic is free to conduct business as it sees fit. I hightly doubt any of the contrac
93 Mariner : I'm not aware of that fire. I am aware that it has been suggested here, but I can't think why it would happen. Anything is possible, of course. It ha
94 AirFrnt : Republic and others have been the only recipients of profit in the airplane world. That profit has been at the expense of the network carriers. That
95 AirframeAS : So with this logic, are you saying that if and/or when the regional franchise system fades away, F9 will fade with it? Am I correct in that assumptio
96 AirFrnt : Quite the reverse. I think that Republic is looking at a situation where it's franchise flying is going to be less successfull, and they are looking
97 AirframeAS : Right. Duh, my bad! That is one week before the auction closes.
98 Mcg : For what it is worth, there is a great picture of Mariner (i.e. N937FR) in today's Boulder Daily Camera. Unfortunately the photo isn't included in the
99 Post contains links Mariner : There is a theory is that United is miffed with Republic for buying Frontier and will react negatively to Republic. Today it is announced that United
100 AirframeAS : 937 is Carmen! Awesome. Can you scan the pic, Mcg?? I think UAL knows if they pick a battle with Republic, they'll lose. UAL is wise on how they're p
101 Post contains links Airbusaddict : Changing the subject a little bit, apparently Sixel Consulting is in talks with Frontier about starting new Q400 service between FSD-MKE. http://www.z
102 Mariner : Interesting idea. I think he is the first to jump on the Frontier/Lynx/MKE bandwagon. I don't think he'll be the last. mariner
103 Airbusaddict : It would really provide competition between F9 and UA/DL out of not just FSD but other markets.
104 AirframeAS : Interesting. Lynx does not serve either station at the moment.
105 Post contains links Airbusaddict : I also found this Sale article, but Im assuming it is a typo, saying Sioux Falls service starts 10/7/07. http://www.redorbit.com/news/busines...es_acr
106 AirframeAS : Not only a typo, it seems like there are a lot of errors on the article. But I am not in reservations so I cannot really make a sound judgement on th
107 SANFan : I, like most, admire Mariner very much but none of this makes a bit of sense to me; is it suppose to?!? Could someone explain some of these terms/nam
108 Post contains links AirframeAS : Sure.... go here for the names.... http://www.frontierairlines.com/fron...un-stuff/animal-tales-continued.do
109 Post contains links and images Mariner : It's a joke, SANFan, but it is a fun joke: http://psittacidae.blogspot.com/2005/02/denverpostcom-business.html "Frontier Airlines gave a nod to the n
110 Mcg : Every time I see N937FR at DIA I say to myself "there's Mariner!".
111 Mariner : The winter schedule is incomplete and is based on the idea that there will only be 3 x A320 in the fleet - because at the moment there are. So DCA st
112 SANFan : Thanks Mariner, for all the explanations! ...Now I can put a "face" to the name!! bb
113 Post contains images Mariner : And here's an oddity. According to the website (and Travelocity) on August 3, which is the second day of the restored TUL service, the afternoon fligh
114 Mercure1 : w/ RPA now owning F9, what is the probability that UA enters a codeshare w/ F9 on most DEN rts and reduces capacity even further at what is rumored to
115 AirframeAS : RAH does not own F9.....yet. All they did was put in their bid with the court, that is it.
116 Mariner : Of the three, we know that one, Frontier, is profitable. mariner
117 AirFrnt : Because F9 is making a profit right now without United. A code share implies that UA would get part of F9's yield on the route. That doesn't make a l
118 AirframeAS : Same here. I have not heard anything else either. And it has only been 3 days now.
119 LAXintl : Fascinating idea. United backs out of much of DEN to focus more on SFO/ORD/IAD and back fills with a F9 codeshare. With Republic(if they are indeed t
120 Rampart : !! More like the edge of a toenail if it's one flight for one day. It shows up if you try to book it, but doesn't show on their online timetable. May
121 Mariner : I think it is also possible they have a group booking. This has happened before - notably on a few of the MCO flights. I recall one in particular whi
122 Rampart : Ah, that makes more sense. COS-TUL would be an odd p2p to start with. Following your STL example, doing something similar at COS might work (i.e. MCO
123 DBCooper : (DEN-)COS-TUL is simply because of a shortage of aircraft - the delivery of Q400 #11 has been delayed 2 days due to industrial action at the manufactu
124 Mariner : In Jeff Potter's time, there was always a strong debate about Frontier at COS. 50% (of management) thought they should start service from there and 5
125 Rampart : Interesting, thanks. Unless an airline would rather just fly out empty, which may be OK weighing out all the hassles, what ought to happen is that th
126 Post contains images Mariner : Ah - the simple explanation. Thanks.   Maybe they do. In the case of the MCO-STL flight, even though the flight was well-booked (by the group) they
127 Post contains links Slcdeltarumd11 : Someone has to leave DEN. Southwest, Frontier and United cant and wont co-exist at these frequencies out of DEN for anyone interested here are some in
128 AirFrnt : Not really. UA can't ditch DEN at this point without a bankruptcy. WN is probably not making a profit, but none of it's systems really are at the mom
129 Mariner : United has had consistent opportunities to develop a relationship with Frontier and they have shown very little interest in doing so, beyond a basic
130 AirFrnt : I do think this is the bottom line. Outside of UA making a deal for F9 in the free and clear (which I just don't see happening), I think UA has alrea
131 MKENut : I am intrigued by this. When I first read about this a month ago I thought "no way" but now that I had time to think about it, it may happen. If anyo
132 Mariner : I don't see it, for all the reasons I've given above - and more. Let's just think about Delta, who have been extremely "helpful" to Midwest, and, I s
133 Mariner : I should probably add that Airtran could scotch all of Republic's plans by making their own bid for Frontier. Trouble is, that could get expensive - b
134 AirframeAS : Do you happen to know who the other players are?
135 Mariner : Sorry, no. Much too confidential for me. mariner
136 AirFrnt : Liquidity is still the issue, and it's a killer issue. Note that UA is about to rock a huge portion of the aviation biz tomorrow by demanding that so
137 Mariner : No, I don't think so either, but it is always possible there will be another bid, or even bids. Nor am I totally convinced this first offer will be R
138 Post contains images AirframeAS : Where'd you get this number from because that is not what I have heard. I heard it was wayyyy less than that.... Same here, I support SM no matter wh
139 Mariner : Yesterday, I had an email from an old chum in the US taking me to task because I haven't talked about Southwest making an offer Frontier, which (he t
140 AirframeAS : If WN were to buy us out, what happens to us employees??
141 Sunking737 : WN I would think would keep everyone on for the time being. It would be weird to see A-319 & -8's painted in WN colors. Think of the possibilities. I
142 Dfanucci : Stranger things have happened, but I think Southwest would be shooting themselves in the foot. DEN is proving that whatever F9 has is working regardl
143 Mariner : I can't think that Southwest would keep Frontier flying as an independent unit, so I assume it would be like the Borg in Star Trek: You will be assim
144 AirframeAS : Can someone photoshop an A319 in WN colors?? Or has that been done before already?
145 Sunking737 : How about a good photo shop of the A319 and the DHC-8?
146 Enilria : If it really costs an extra $150 million because of the way REP has structured this deal, it would likely be cheaper to negotiate directly with REP t
147 AirframeAS : That is now how the auction process works. You need to remember that this is an auction sponsored by the bk court due to the fact of the change in ba
148 Post contains links Mariner : There is nothing in law stopping Frontier from emerging as a standalone. It is simply a financial reality. If they emerged as a stand alone they woul
149 AirframeAS : My understanding that SM has said over and over again is that they cannot emerge from bk as a standalone and they must have a sponsorship plan in pla
150 Mariner : For the reasons given above. They need an investor because they don't have the money to pay off the debt and emerge with a cash cushion. Example: on
151 AirframeAS : But they also had the right under the provisions to request a 4 month extension which they did get approved, IIRC.[Edited 2009-07-20 19:57:28]
152 Post contains links Mariner : They've had a couple of extensions within the 18 months - the last taking them up until October 1. Usually, a company does not request the full 18 mo
153 Enilria : Regardless of the debate, I think you misunderstand. Once REP owns F9 they can do anything they want. I'm saying that since other bidders have a $150
154 AirFrnt : The number is from a very good source. The break down is that the offer from republic is worth about ~290 million all told - from DIP financing + the
155 Sunking737 : Ok so lets change this a bit, what would it cost a party to purchase RJET, After it has completed the buy out of Midwest and Frontier? Could WN pull t
156 AirframeAS : What I am hearing is $300 million, but take that with a grain of salt, Sunk.... Gee, I really hope not.... I am actually hoping RJET will win the bid
157 Post contains links Sunking737 : Check this out WN A319 from Modified Airliners... http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00005769
158 Enilria : I think regardless there are going to be big changes. I don't think the employees of Southwest's past acquisitions have fared well (except Morris), s
159 Ridgid727 : WN did buy Muse Air, only to shut themdown. Southwest did not bring Morris Employees on Board automatically. They had to re-apply with Southwest to be
160 Ridgid727 : What I meant to say was, WN bought Muse Air, only to shut them down later, after renaming them, re-adjusting their route structure, and of course los
161 Azstar : There is no reason, whatsover, for WN to pay a penny for F9. They've done very well in Denver having claimed majority market share in most of the mark
162 Ridgid727 : That is not true. While WN has a great work force, there are all kinds of "very high standard" staff members at Frontier who have made aviation their
163 Dfanucci : Indeed. I have thought of an "out of the blue bid" that would be rather interesting though. JetBlue is a Bus flyer with service offerings right in li
164 Azstar : There are some. But there are many more who are just incompetent.
165 Cross757 : Hello, I've been trying to catch up with what is going on in this thread...may I respectfully request a summary, please? In the opinion of those who o
166 Dfanucci : Hehehe, I think most other Airfrnt, Mariner, and AS are just as much in the dark as you. But, gleaning a little info along the way, one could make so
167 AirframeAS : That looks pretty good. Now we need a Q400 in WN colors! What was the reason for this? Were they unioned folks or non-unioned. I think probably why t
168 Mariner : Of course. One thing I have learned in a long and not uninteresting life is that: "What is, is" - that nothing is certain until it happens. I can mak
169 Dfanucci : Indeed Mariner, Indeed. That is why Folks like yourself, Airfnt, etc are really a great asset here on the boards. Although you may not "know" the inf
170 Mariner : I can fathom that. It has happened before. Because most people here are airline nuts, I guess we don't really examine the financial deals quite as mu
171 Post contains links Mariner : Gremlins, indeed: http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayRe...story/07-21-2009/0005063823&EDATE= "Teamsters Hail Court Decision on Frontier Airlines" The
172 Atomsareenough : Hmm, so what implications does this have on F9's profitability and the sale to Republic?
173 Mariner : On the profit side, it shouldn't do too much harm. As to the Republic offer, it isn't the best news. This has been stewing for some time. The IBT pre
174 Cross757 : Is it the general consensus then that if Republic does not buy Frontier, Frontier is doomed? That would be very unfortunate...not just for passengers
175 Rampart : That has to be a minority opinion. Recent customer satisfaction rating were higher than WN's, and higher than all the legacy carriers. -Rampart
176 Enilria : I was not aware of that. I that case, the employees of WN's acquisitions have universally fared poorly. Fortunately is is unlikely F9 will be bought
177 Mariner : Never say never. SM has proved himself to be as stubborn as a mule. However, if the Republic offer fails - for whatever reason - and there is no othe
178 Enilria : Is there any reason to think that is going to happen? REP knew about the IBT issues long ago. Is there any other reason you are aware of that could j
179 AirframeAS : Ok, Mariner... now you are really scaring me here...
180 Enilria : When is the REP quarterly conference call? It must be soon (within 10 days). That should calm your nerves.
181 Mariner : Why blame me? I'm not your union - they're the ones doing the scary stuff. mariner
182 F9Mechanic : From my experience first hand, when the company asked for the first wage cut till the day I left, the other work groups have always followed what the
183 Mariner : It did at the time. There was a considerable concern that all the work groups share the cuts. A number of pilots - at that time - suggested that they
184 Enilria : Hmm...that is interesting. I hadn't considered that they might be the same union. Do you happen to know whether there are more F9 or REP mechs? I wou
185 F9Mechanic : The IBT Leadership is hardly militant, I would say they are more bark than bite.
186 Mariner : I've been a strong union man all my life, and with some very hardline unions, both in the US and Australia. But even I questioned the IBT tactics whe
187 AirframeAS : I don't think that'll happen. I hope it never does. Besides, if this REP bid does go through, REP's mechanics can't do work on F9 aircraft anyway.
188 Enilria : Do REP's mechanics also have the clause in their contract that there must be single seniority list across all REP certificates (the pilots do)? I pre
189 Dfanucci : Indeed. I would hate to have to explain to my family that the Union helped push F9 to closing up shop. IBT is playing with fire here. The Judges ruli
190 AirframeAS : No, I don't think so. But I will ask about it later on today. We may be one union but that is moot. As long as the certificates are separate, REP mec
191 Mariner : I think that is unlikely. I don't want too take away from the seriousness of this, but I've had a chance to sleep on it and get input from some peopl
192 Post contains links Enilria : Correct me if wrong, but this (in essence press release) seems like basically nothing. The fact it is being hyped as news makes me wonder if F9 is try
193 BrickyardPHL : Just to let you know REP Mechs are all non-union and I would have to say most of the ones I know dont want to be union. I don't know how many mech REP
194 Enilria : Who is correct about the union in place at REP? I didn't understand that either. Clearly airlines use other carrier's mechanics all the time.
195 Dfanucci : Whoa Daddy, that is a whole different ballgame. Thanks for that Mariner! I was going to post the exact same thing. My guess (again if whoever ends up
196 F9Mechanic : To correct my mistake, REP's pilot's are represented by the IBT.
197 Enilria : OK, this frames things very differently. Now it is much easier to construct a REP vs. IBT issue. REP must have concerns that IBT will attempt to unio
198 Mastyc : I'll remember that next time I walk by Mr. C's in Chicago.
199 LAXintl : One more A320 is headed to F9 by way of GECAS. Ex USA3000 A320-214 N270AV.
200 Mariner : Which raises the intriguing question: since I doubt that USA3000 would want an A318 - where is the A318 going? mariner
201 AirFrnt : You really have no clue what you are talking about. No. This is a important step for bankruptcy, and one of the steps that needs to be cleared prior t
202 Enilria : Airfrnt As usual you leaped before you looked. The importance of Republic to be able to lobby creditors is minimally important in this case because of
203 AirFrnt : I'm not the one with the near 100% record of being wrong on Frontier. What happened to your arguments that F9 was not put into Bankruptcy by a over-r
204 KingCavalier : I believe F9 checked this aircraft out in RSW recently. It was on it's way back to the lessor in MEX. I believe the a/c is in MEX right now.
205 Enilria : If so, my comments that I am confident that REP will go forward with the F9 deal despite the IBT should cause you grave, grace concern. You wouldn't
206 Mariner : And already the schedule has been changed. The A320 is restored to LGA but now goes to LAX instead of SAN as well (sorry SANfan). So the daily run is
207 N7371f : N809FR was just sold to Q Aviation. Court granted the order today. That's the porcupine tail. N803FR may also be sold (not to Q Aviation). That's "Stu
208 Enilria : While the A318s are certainly poor economically and deserve to exit the fleet, does anybody feel some concern about the capacity increase an A318 to
209 KingCavalier : I know I don't have a concern. I'd like to see some A321's. Frontier's loads are ridiculously high. There is way too much spillage right now. I think
210 Post contains links and images Mariner : Application has been made to the court to sell 803 (Stu) to Aviateur leasing. http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=c...David+Polk+Airbus+A318&hl=en&gl=
211 GentFromAlaska : This is merely me venting frustration. As a long time cheerleader of F9 who has followed the airline since the middle to late 90's I keep pondering wh
212 Post contains images Mariner : Sean Menke inherited the contract. Republic had been flying for Frontier for some months before SM took over.   mariner[Edited 2009-07-23 21:08:43]
213 KingCavalier : Frontier Wins First-Ever Emmy - “Leather Seats” one of three Frontier spots in running. The winning “Leather Seats” spot debuted May 2008 and
214 Post contains links Rampart : Great! Found it on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZYi7WZz-U Reminds me of the characters on "Ice Age". Looking through, all their commerci
215 GentFromAlaska : How appropriate and a "Heartland" Emmy at that. This ranks up there with the California talking cows cheese commercial. " target=_blank>http://www.yo
216 Mcg : Maybe the REP contract didn't have termination for convenience language because REP wouldn't agree to it. After all, why would any regional operator
217 GentFromAlaska : I seem to recall SM came aboard as the CEO when QX was still doing the puddle jumper flying for F9. I recall us talking about the possibility of the
218 Mariner : Republic started flying for Frontier in March 07. SM was announced in mid-August but did not actually take up the reins until September 07. Horizon w
219 AirframeAS : That's Jack, but the commercial did not have Jack actually in it, only his tail. The actual aircraft was 929 which is Larry the Lynx.
220 Post contains links Mariner : It is tempting sometimes to make connections that may not exist, but it is tough not to make those connections with the IBT and frontier. The fight wi
221 LAXintl : Not just Horizon. Atlas and Polar Air Cargo also dumped ALPA in favor of the IBT in last half year also. IBT airline portfolio has been growing, and
222 AirframeAS : This one will go first before 803 will. My timeline that I have seen is totally the opposite than what you have posted here.
223 N7371f : I'm going off legal documents filed with the bankruptcy court. Whereas Frontier make take possession of the aircraft August 24, maybe it won't physic
224 Post contains links Mariner : According to AerCap's 2Q financial report, those 3 x A320 are new aircraft: http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/tic...&feed=PR&date=20090714&id=10140822
225 Enilria : F9 pulled one scheduled line out of the schedule for November in last week's schedule. Any idea if that is a fleet decrease or a pending re-allocatio
226 KingCavalier : Frontier Reports Eighth Consecutive Monthly Operating Profit And Net Profit for Third Successive Quarter Today Frontier reported its eighth consecutiv
227 N7371f : I'm 99.9% sure these leases are not part of the outstanding order. Reason why - Frontier and Airbus reached that new delivery schedule and delivery d
228 AirframeAS : They actually are. All of the 18's are leaving the fleet.
229 Mariner : I'm fairly sure, too, just 100% certain. I guess my point is that they appear to be "new" aircraft. AerCap says so and others have confirmed it to me
230 Sunking737 : Wouldn't they be better off with the 318 vs 320? 320 being bigger. Which costs less to operate? Which makes more money?
231 AirframeAS : The A320 does. The A320 does by a far, far margin. But I do not have numbers to back that up as I am not a numbers guy, but I can say that you can ea
232 N7371f : I believe you're referring to new aircraft fresh from the Airbus factory. And, yes, it's my understanding these (3) AeroCap A320's will be delivered
233 Enilria : The A318 costs 12% less to operate than the A320. The A320 costs less to operate "per seat" (CASM) because even though it costs 12% more to operate,
234 AirframeAS : When you factor in the 30% more seats as you put it, it beats the A318 costwise. And you also have to factor in how you use the aircraft. In this cas
235 Post contains links Mariner : The departure of the A318 leaves a gap in the fleet, though, both in terms of capacity and range. It's a jump from the 70/74 seat Q400 to the A319 an
236 Tripleboom : A return of SDF or possibly a start of FSD? Could the E-190 compete favorably on the route w/ UA's 733s and 735s? Could E-190s to OMA free up Qs to h
237 Mariner : Another one playing with my affections. mariner
238 Enilria : Well they bought the A320 basically for DCA/LGA/CUN. That was in an earnings conference call a couple of years ago. Those are pretty easy to justify,
239 Mariner : Sean Menke has said that it is an eight seat differential for Frontier. That isn't what I heard. The cities you nominate were mentioned, but other ci
240 AirframeAS : I disagree. The A319 is almost the same as the 73G. F9 does not need the 18. Besides, the flights are pretty much full at present day anyway. But hon
241 Mariner : Those A319's that were sold proved to what they were always intended to be - the piggy bank. mariner
242 F9fan : I wonder if they are going to use the 320s on the CAK route, which seems to perform surprisingly well. The few times I've flown that route, the plane
243 Enilria : That doesn't include the ownership differential. That's just the "pure" operating cost. The A318s were VERY cheap to buy. That was the only good thin
244 N7371f : Seriously? All of these A320 decisions were made well before Republic came into the picture. And even now - F9 can't make decisions like that. They n
245 AirframeAS : They were, I agree. But they could have done that with the A318's. The A319's are the perfect fit for F9. Hell, even the 737-700 would do great with
246 Mariner : Sean Menke said it was an eight seat differential. I take his word for it. I'm fully aware of the price Frontier paid for the A318's - and how the de
247 AirframeAS : Not really.... There are certain places that would be happy to unload the 18's out of F9's hands....
248 Mariner : I'm sure there a few. But you know what happened to 808. mariner
249 F9Mechanic : 808 was parted out, I see E190's in F9's future and the Airbus's on the way out.
250 Mariner : That would be odd given the leases they have just signed. mariner
251 N7371f : Are you sure about that? I recall reading that Q Aviation, the buyer, had a private operator/corporate jet customer specifically for 808. I know F9 f
252 Dfanucci : ????? Are you talking all Airbuses? That would be incredibly odd as why then would F9 be purchasing 320's ? I could see 190's filling blanks left by
253 KingCavalier : I don't know why people speculate about E190's taking over all of Frontier's Airbus. I can only guess that it's because RAH is starting to purchase s
254 AirframeAS : Agreed. With the leases that were just signed, how could the Airbuses be on the way out? And why would F9 take any more A320's if they are on their w
255 N7371f : Wow. Barely 2 years old & scrapped. That might be a record for an airframe that didn't suffer a hull loss or damage beyond economic repair. In the sa
256 Enilria : I'm no fan of the A318, just saying all those extra A320 seats aren't free. I have heard from another good source that the US E190s are likely headed
257 Post contains links Mariner : This one is tricky because for some reason I can't access the DOT site at the moment (gremlins) to confirm it. Also the CAPA article is subscription o
258 AirframeAS : 808 was a bit over two years old.
259 Post contains links KingCavalier : Well, this sure complicates things. http://frontierair.tekgroupweb.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5144 Jul 30, 2009 Frontier Confirms That Southwe
260 Mariner : If you can't beat 'em, - buy 'em. As Southwest says, eventually that would mean the end of Frontier. mariner
261 AirframeAS : It complicates things a lot!
262 Post contains images MSYtristar : I have so many good memories from my time with F9. It'd be a huge disappointment to see the name disappear. Can't WN do the industry a real favor and
263 Mariner : It is a fairly glum morning for me, too. In one sense, it is a huge compliment to SM - they couldn't beat him so they're buying him out, but it would
264 AirframeAS : What about our jobs? If we have to re-apply to have the jobs we already have now, then why do the HP/US employees didn't have to apply for their jobs
265 MSYtristar : To me it really signifies that this isn't the WN of old. I know the airline has been changing its strategy over the past few years, but this drives i
266 Mariner : You and me both, Steve. Frontier has been more than a ten year love affair for me - and a heck of a roller coaster ride. But - the Fat lady ain't sun
267 Mastyc : I completely agree with you there, and thanks for the sentiments. I have a feeling that the animals are now very endangered because of WN's no lose a
268 F9fan : Well, it looks like the old girl may get eaten like a little dot in a Pac Man game. Unfortunate, but this is how the world works in a capitalist socie
269 F9Mechanic : WN is very selective about who they hire, having taken their test for mechanics and having a Friend who works for them it's tough to get hired with t
270 AirframeAS : I am very aware of that as I have once worked for WN at one point.
271 Post contains images KingCavalier : Frontier's newest A320 is scheduled to arrive this month. This tail has been gone for a while. I think it was on a Horizon CR7 previously. I wasn't a
272 Mariner : Is there any news on N511LX? It should be arriving soon. mariner
273 F9fan : I think WN is selective because they get a lot of applicants in the first place. Having a broader pool of talent means they only have to take the one
274 AirplaneBoy : Also, those who worked at Frontier prior to April 2005 (FAs and CSAs anyway) already have experience working with the Boeing 737-300 (and -200 for th
275 Post contains links and images KingCavalier : I spoke with a friend at Lynx. They expect delivery in DEN on August 14 with the aircraft ready to fly on the 17th or 18th. They said delays from Bom
276 Mariner : Great traffic report for July - mainline 92% l/f. The revenue drop wasn't too bad either, compared with some others. mariner
277 Post contains links KingCavalier : Everything seems to be going so right for F9. The 92% was a record LF. Let's hope nothing screws it up. http://www.forbes.com/feeds/business...9/08/0
278 Enilria : Frontier had the worst mainline ontime perf in June. Any idea why? They usually do so well on that. Was it weather or has F9 been cutting block times
279 Enilria : You know what isn't confidence inspiring in the release... "Frontier estimates that mainline passenger unit revenue decreased year-over-year by 7 to
280 AirFrnt : Major lighting storms all month long in Denver probably played a role.
281 Mariner : Hmmmm. Guess they're not Harry Potter fans. Hedwig, a snowy owl, is Harry's innocent, magical familiar. mariner
282 AirframeAS : We've had thunderstorms popping up nearly every afternoon at DIA last month. I was thinking the same thing when King mentioned the animal.
283 Enilria : That sucks. 68% is Mesa level performance.
284 KingCavalier : Poor Mesa. It's not just the bad weather (although I know of at least 5 F9 diversions to COS and 2 to PUB yesterday). F9 also doesn't have spare airc
285 TheGreatChecko : Weather just about every afternoon caused a whole bunch of issues. Add to that a lack of a spare and MX issues just snowballed every day.
286 Post contains links Mariner : Kingcavalier has posted an extremely interesting article in another thread: http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...em.aspx?type=blog&ak=68496411.blog
287 AirframeAS : Actually, there is one... well... not really... that one is always in c-check... Whatever WN is smoking, they need to lay off of it.... Because they
288 F9fan : I hate to mention it, but Hedwig got on page 55 in the U.S. edition (the U.K. and Canadian editions have different page numbers) of "Harry Potter and
289 TheGreatChecko : How much you want to bet that's the first place Lynx sends that plane. HAHA! Checko
290 Post contains links Mariner : Why do you hate to mention it? It is famous. Hedwig's death has been referred to as the death of Harry's innocence. Yes. My very first reaction - pos
291 Post contains links Mariner : There is an article about this in the Las Vegas Sun. They quote Mike Boyd who, as always, has a provocative take on it: http://www.lasvegassun.com/new
292 Enilria : Yes and no. I have always said F9 was the target in DEN. If they achieve that through any means possible, I would call it success. Right now they are
293 Mariner : I'll deny it. I have. I'll continue to - then. Now is different. mariner
294 F9fan : I know JKR said that it was her way of showing the end of HP's childhood. Still, it was rather traumatic. Good old Michael Boyd. Always good for a ne
295 Atomsareenough : I disagree that VX is doing that in SFO. They might have entered the market using loss leading fares, and still do some, but 1) everyone does that; 2
296 Mariner : When Southwest left Denver/Stapleton, the then CEO Herb Kelleher indicated that they would never return to DEN (pigs fly, or hell freezes, some such)
297 KingCavalier : You have no idea. Be thankful you have an ocean separating you from the bombardment. We have been blitzed with WN advertising since they announced th
298 AirFRNT : They actually started blitzing the NFL games about 6 months before they announced. I was constantly wondering why the Broncos games had Southwest ads
299 Atomsareenough : If WN enters the DEN market and quickly builds up to 100 flights a day, and Frontier just *happened* to wither away, you can call it collateral damag
300 KingCavalier : But WN always says "We're just going where our passengers tell us they want us to fly." Sorry AK, HI, MT, WY, ND, SD, KS, IA, GA, SC, NH, ME and int'
301 Mariner : "If" that had happened, then maybe I would agree. But it didn't wither away. If Frontier had down-sized to some plum routes and Mexico, it might have
302 Enilria : That's what I'm saying. All the hand-wringing about WN loss-leading in DEN is idiotic because loss-leading to break into a market and eliminate compe
303 Mariner : I can't imagine that either. Expecting them to die is not the same as setting out to kill them. mariner
304 Atomsareenough : If Frontier had shriveled down to a few planes on a few routes, or if they moved their hub, sure they would technically still be around but it wouldn
305 Atomsareenough : It's tantamount to that, if you expect them to die as a direct consequence of your action.
306 Mariner : It wouldn't be the same, sure. But they wouldn't be dead. Southwest came into DEN like an over-muscled ape expecting everyone to get out of their way
307 Atomsareenough : That's fair enough I guess. Maybe before they merely thought it would be *nice* if Frontier died, but now they think that Frontier MUST die. Either w
308 Mariner : That's pretty much what I think. But given the following two choices: (i) Frontier humming profitably along, not at DEN but with a hub at MCI or COS
309 Enilria : True, but the end is the same...unfortunately. BTW, if REP wins what do you expect F9 will look like in 2014? I think either they are a code share fo
310 Mariner : Since it didn't happen, it seems irrelevant. I have no way of knowing what might have been. It has long been my hope that Frontier will - eventually
311 AirframeAS : I was really hoping for that mx hangar in COS!
312 Mariner : Fun and games at OKC? From (summer) 2 x mainline, 2 x Lynx, it is now 3 x mainline, 1 x Lynx. I assume this might have something to do with the late a
313 Mariner : Dickie-birds at DEN are telling me that Frontier achieved a 98% system wide load factor yesterday. As I said in the other thread, the bidders may be b
314 Mariner : I guess I should have trusted my heart more than my head. mariner
315 KingCavalier : Your heart and your dickie birds
316 Mariner : That's very true. But even a few of my dickie birds were "uncertain" until yesterday morning and they did keep my up half the night, singing all sort
317 AirframeAS : You cannot go wrong with Mariner's trademarked Dickie Birds!
318 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : The federal General Services Administration (GSA) just published their government fiscal year city pairs contracts award winners for 2010. The new con
319 Mariner : Obviously, there has been a very great said and posted over the last few days. I thought I'd give a summary. I'm not going to provide the links here -
320 Airfrnt : I don't buy this for a moment. There is just too many advantages to going to a single brand, and building brand awareness across the country. I would
321 Mariner : Oh, I do - at least for now. The one thing that must be protected is Frontier's profitability. To merge the two now, while Midwest needs sorting out,
322 AirframeAS : How is non-rev priority going to work for us?
323 Airfrnt : Fair enough. I don't see fuel going back down any time soon to that level.
324 Post contains images Mariner : No, nor do I. But, as I also said, a few E170's - as opposed to a lot - could be put on routes where they could be profitable with fuel at these pres
325 Trigged : If this was sold, when will it be leaving the fleet? I was just on it Aug 12.
326 GentFromAlaska : Additionally YX advertised as Midwest Express did win DEN-Grand Rapids. This appears to be a new city pair from DEN as it was not awarded in 2009. Hi
327 AirportGuy1971 : Isn't it time for a part 4 of this thread?
328 Post contains links FlyKev : Thread will be locked, continue with part 4 here: That Frontier Thread, Part 4 (by FlyKev Aug 15 2009 in Civil Aviation) Thanks. Kev.
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