UnitedTristar From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1241 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4057 times:
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2588 posts, RR: 31 Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3918 times:
I'm guessing UA never had authority to fly MNL-NRT, so they were forced to route the flight through Seoul (a relatively weak station - only NRT and HKG have consistently supported UA's intra-Asian flights) instead of the Narita minihub. If I had to guess I'd imagine the Asian Financial Crisis (both South Korea and the Philippines were hit very hard) was the end of Manila ops for UA.
I don't think they have flown that route for at least 10-15 years. Manila would be one of the only Asian cities that was entirely dropped from the UA network.
Doubtful. I would imagine Philippine Airlines, Hawaiian Airlines, and Northwest/Delta have the U.S.-Manila market very well covered. PAL already flies to MNL from SFO. UA can easily just codeshare with ANA through NRT or Asiana through ICN to get pax to Manila rather than flying there itself. Also, remember that the ONLY non-Asian carriers serving MNL are Hawaiian Airlines, Continental Micronesia, Northwest/Delta, Qantas, and KLM. Clearly, UA has bigger fish to fry than the small, low-yielding Filipino market.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
Cospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1473 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3847 times:
99% Of MNL traffic is VFR (Visiting Family Members) of the few Biz pax NW can serve it well from NRT then throw in other NW flights HA PAL and CO and not much room for new entries..
For HA its a 10 Hour flight HNL-MNL for about $500 RT so I dont see how they can make money...
For the PAX MNL is one of the best long haul dals out there...but bad for the airlines
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3836 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 2): UA can easily just codeshare with ANA through NRT or Asiana through ICN to get pax to Manila rather than flying there itself
actually I dont think that NH fly to MNL , but I agree with your point that UA can serve it through their partners more effeciently than they could serve it themselves
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5337 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3753 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 2): I'm guessing UA never had authority to fly MNL-NRT,
UA has the route authority to operate NRT-MNL if they wanted to.
As others have mentioned its all about the yields out of MNL, they simply were not high enough to support UA operations even in the late 90s when the economy was doing reasonably well.
ANA doesn't fly to Manila, which still baffles me. Why can't they at least support a B763 operation that connects to their North American wave of departures in the late afternoon!? I'd imagine those passengers coupled with Narita bound passengers would be enough to sustain the flights. I mean, JAL does a 2x daily 747 rotation - one of which is meant solely for traffic between the two cities! I don't get that as a Star Alliance member the only choice I have out of MNL to the US without going out of the way (SIN/BKK) is OZ.
Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
UA has the route authority to operate NRT-MNL if they wanted to.
They might have the route authority, but do they want to give up a valuable and expensive NRT slot for the low yielding MNL flight?
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22032 posts, RR: 51 Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3659 times:
The United Manila flights were known around the system as Non-Rev Pineapple Express with often upwards of 50 Filipino staff members on board many originating from California or Hawaii.
The only positive business aspect to the flights were cargo particularly during the late 80s/early 90s when many tech companies had factories in the Philippines and were exporting across the Pacific. Even after MNL passenger flights were cut, it remainder as a UA network destination as part of the DC-10 freighter flying for a couple more years.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Sq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1583 posts, RR: 21 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3627 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8): The United Manila flights were known around the system as Non-Rev Pineapple Express with often upwards of 50 Filipino staff members on board many originating from California or Hawaii.
Wow had no idea! Lots of people must have been pissed when the flights were finally cut!
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15728 posts, RR: 47 Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3617 times:
Doesn't NW do 744 maintenance in MNL?
Quoting Cospn (Reply 3): For HA its a 10 Hour flight HNL-MNL for about $500 RT so I dont see how they can make money...
It's not full either. I'm not sure that flight is long of this world.
Well LH Technik has an operation in MNL last I checked. That said, the 744s get in between 22:00 and 23:00 and leave the next morning between 07:00 and 08:00 so that doesn't leave much time for maintenance?
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21481 posts, RR: 24 Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3543 times:
Quoting Sq_ek_freak (Reply 7): Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 2):
ANA through NRT
ANA doesn't fly to Manila, which still baffles me. Why can't they at least support a B763 operation that connects to their North American wave of departures in the late afternoon!? I'd imagine those passengers coupled with Narita bound passengers would be enough to sustain the flights. I mean, JAL does a 2x daily 747 rotation - one of which is meant solely for traffic between the two cities!
NH is smart not to fly to MNL, a low yield, low profit destination. Let JL lose money on those passengers. NH has generally been more profitable than JL. This is probably one reason why. It's the same reason why all European carriers that once served MNL have dropped the route except KL.
Sq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1583 posts, RR: 21 Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3432 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12): NH is smart not to fly to MNL, a low yield, low profit destination
NH flies to virtually every other low yielding destination in South East Asia and seem to make it work, why not add Manila to that list, especially if they can time the flight to connect well with UA, AC, soon CO and their own bank of departures to a host of destinations in North America? It'd be pretty easy to do; have a 763 do an early evening departure from Narita after the early to mid afternoon bank of arrivals from the US, and arrive late night in MNL, then do an early morning departure to a early afternoon arrival in Tokyo - perfect for transiting on to the late afternoon/early evening banks to North America.
Do we know for sure that JAL is loosing money on their Manila operations? If they were their 2x daily 74E ops plus their NGO flight which I believe is a 763 could definitely be cut down if they just wanted to maintain flights to the Philippines. Is there a possibility that JL can maintain profitability on their MNL operations because of the cargo they carry in the belly? That said, if that were the case an NH 763 probably wouldn't suffice for the route.
As for the European majors - well they have the three Mid East powerhouses to compete with on Europe flights, so the were doomed in the very price sensitive MNL from the start.
Any news on Afriqyah's new flights to MNL? I highly doubt that flight will ever materialize, but still...
Sean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 752 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3316 times:
The reason that NW sends 2x 744 to MNL is because they do heavy maintenance there... Might as well carry some pax while they're at it.
Pellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1845 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3275 times:
Quoting Sq_ek_freak (Reply 13): NH flies to virtually every other low yielding destination in South East Asia and seem to make it work, why not add Manila to that list, especially if they can time the flight to connect well with UA, AC, soon CO and their own bank of departures to a host of destinations in North America? It'd be pretty easy to do; have a 763 do an early evening departure from Narita after the early to mid afternoon bank of arrivals from the US, and arrive late night in MNL, then do an early morning departure to a early afternoon arrival in Tokyo - perfect for transiting on to the late afternoon/early evening banks to North America.
Do we know for sure that JAL is loosing money on their Manila operations? If they were their 2x daily 74E ops plus their NGO flight which I believe is a 763 could definitely be cut down if they just wanted to maintain flights to the Philippines. Is there a possibility that JL can maintain profitability on their MNL operations because of the cargo they carry in the belly? That said, if that were the case an NH 763 probably wouldn't suffice for the route.
There are a lot of places in the region where NH does not fly, so it's not as if MNL is a singular black hole on their route map.
KingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1579 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3244 times:
Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 15): The reason that NW sends 2x 744 to MNL is because they do heavy maintenance there..
FilAmAirlines From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3075 times:
How are NW and JL's MNL yields?
Which airline(s) not based in the Philippines do you think is making the most money from MNL?
FNT is the death knell for MBS and LAN because of WN's commitment
AznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3541 posts, RR: 5 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3054 times:
Quoting FilAmAirlines (Reply 18): Which airline(s) not based in the Philippines do you think is making the most money from MNL?
From US, probably DL/NW. But overall, probably EK, then QR.
The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
Cospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1473 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3021 times:
CO does well lots of OCW's paying higher yield oneway fares to MIA, IAH, MSY ect..Many are crew members for ships plus populations of Guam and Honolulu are about 50% Filipino..and visit their family members often...
Per Philippine Govt regulations you have to but a ticket from MNL to the final destination..
You can not cheap out buy your worker a PAL MNL-LAS and tell the worker to walk over to WN and fly LAS-MSY
You have to buy a Ticket all the way to the workers location or port so CO does OK with this niche also no layover so they go right through MNL-GUM-HNL-IAH-FLL/MSY or where-ever...and they get free food form CO along the way what a deal. .Also Guam seems to be a good Immigration point of entry compared to places like PDX where there were rumors of Philippine citizens and others having a hard time....I even heard it is one reason DL closed the PDX gateway...but thats sounds like BS
SO they can pretty much fill the 7 MNL-GUM 2 MNL-ROR-GUM everyday and it helps feed 767-400 GUM-HNL-IAH and CO 12 HNL-LAX 757 soon to be 737-900
HNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 793 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2964 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10): t's not full either. I'm not sure that flight is long of this world.
I can't dispute your statement, but recently my flight out of HNL was well into the 80% range and the return nearly full. Knew one of the flight attendants on the return and she said it's nearly always that full.
Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
AznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3541 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2966 times:
Quoting AADC10 (Reply 21): It was a destination inherited from PA but the Philippines lived up to its reputation as the new "Sick Man of Asia."
What does that mean?
The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22032 posts, RR: 51 Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2888 times:
In the 1950s, the Philippines was the most dynamic economy in Asia - hailed by the World Bank as a future powerhouse. Half a century later the country is, in the words of Rommel Banlaoi, a political-science professor at the National Defense College, "the sick man of Asia". http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/FJ01Ae01.html
You can google the term and from scholars to politicians the Philippines has garnered such a title since about the 80s, as much of its ASEAN neighbors far surpassed the nation.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Burnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7411 posts, RR: 9 Reply 25, posted (3 years 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 2552 times:
Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 15): The reason that NW sends 2x 744 to MNL is because they do heavy maintenance there... Might as well carry some pax while they're at it.
NW's heavy maint is done by HECO or whatever its callled in Hong Kong.
"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
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.Also Guam seems to be a good Immigration point of entry compared to places like PDX where there were rumors of Philippine citizens and others having a hard time....I even heard it is one reason DL closed the PDX gateway...but thats sounds like BS
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