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Future Of Sun-Air (BA) Franchise!  
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2500 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4873 times:

Sun Air DK, the BA franchise in Denmark is closing its Oslo-Stord route after having closed the Brussels-Bern one. It seems that Sun Air DK is opening than closing routes not really knowing what to do outside its long standing Danish routes.

So how is this airline doing in this crisis? Any new routes?

I was thinking that Sun Air could jump in and launch routes between Brussels and Zurich, Munich or Frankfurt to compete with the SN/LH who have to relase slots. This could OneWorld more presence in those markets and it wouldn't be a high risk using those Dornier Jets.


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

BRU-ZRH/MUC/FRA in a Dornier 328 to compete with Star Alliance? Are you serious?

Sun Air has always been a niche airline, often flying high yielding or subsidized routes. I think it would be wise to stay in that niche and rather give up a poorly performing route than expanding at all costs on trunk routes.

Given that BA has cut back its franchises, I also don't think they are too keen to keep Sunair. If there is a market at BRU, I am sure they would dump their own metal there. I am, however, not sure if BRU is indeed that big a market as many seem to believe.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4727 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Thread starter):
I was thinking that Sun Air could jump in and launch routes between Brussels and Zurich, Munich or Frankfurt to compete with the SN/LH who have to relase slots. This could OneWorld more presence in those markets and it wouldn't be a high risk using those Dornier Jets.

No chance at all.

Despite being an affiliate member of OneWorld, it won't really help them, as OneWorld nor BA financially backs these operations.

Sun Air simply pays BA to use their color scheme and their booking engine, and pays BA and other OneWorld airlines for the frequent flier miles they give to their customers. There is no money going to other way around.

As ZRH, MUC and FRA are no OneWorld hubs, they won't get any feed and therefore, they will need to fill the aircraft solely with O&D pax. LH can simply push Sun Air from this market, and Sun Air won't even try to compete.

I actually wonder how long they will continue using the BA brand. The last years, BA has ceased many franchises including BMed, GT Airways and Loganair. The only ones left are Sun Air and Comair (South Africa).


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4920 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4692 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Thread starter):
Sun Air DK, the BA franchise in Denmark is closing its Oslo-Stord route

They lost the PSO contract didnt they?



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User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4689 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 1):
If there is a market at BRU, I am sure they would dump their own metal there. I am, however, not sure if BRU is indeed that big a market as many seem to believe.

Ha, a simultaneous reply.

BRU is a reasonably big market, but it's not like London.

SN offers a fine European network out of BRU, connecting all major cities and vacation destinations, and also including some smaller cities like BIO or BLQ. Next to that, Thomas Cook and JetairFly offer a healthy level of competition to vacation destinations.

Added to that, virtuall all other network carriers have included BRU in their route network, including SK, OS, LO, OK, IB, etc) and it is served by some LCCs.

This is about the level of European flights you can expect for a continental European airport with a catchment area like BRU's. There is just no room for a second home carrier. Reasons are also that there is no domestic (business) market (like in MAD) and that prime business destinations (Paris, Amsterdam-Rotterdam area, Ruhr area) are very well connected by both rail and road.

Even at LHR, for European destinations, BA is practically the sole home carrier, as BDs network from LHR is fairly limited. The same goes for JKs presence at MAD (limited compared to IB). And these markets are (because of the Island-ness and the huge domestic demand) way bigger than BRU.

If any carrier is to launch MUC-BRU it's AB, having a sizable customer base at the MUC end.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4668 times:

Oh and with respect to taking slots that have been given up for competition: look at the "success" of Scot Airways on AMS-LCY...

User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3384 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4652 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 3):
They lost the PSO contract didnt they?

Yes, they lost the route to DAT. Another Danish company


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4920 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4625 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 5):
Oh and with respect to taking slots that have been given up for competition: look at the "success" of Scot Airways on AMS-LCY...

When did Scot Airways fly AMS-LCY. I think ever since they rebranded from Suckling they have only ever flown LCY-EDI/DND and SOU-AMS under their own brand

Do you mean Eastern, who got LCY-AMS slots as part of the VLM takeover but have never used them?



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User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4599 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 7):
Do you mean Eastern, who got LCY-AMS slots as part of the VLM takeover but have never used them?

Eh, yes  Smile


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2500 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4599 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 2):

I actually wonder how long they will continue using the BA brand. The last years, BA has ceased many franchises including BMed, GT Airways and Loganair. The only ones left are Sun Air and Comair (South Africa).

BA would like to expand the franchise operation outside the UK. They were looking at Go Air in India.

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 1):
BRU-ZRH/MUC/FRA in a Dornier 328 to compete with Star Alliance? Are you serious?

Adria Airways was competing with LH and OS on the Vienna-Frankfurt or Vienna-Munich routes before becoming a regional member of *A



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4507 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 9):
Adria Airways was competing with LH and OS on the Vienna-Frankfurt or Vienna-Munich routes before becoming a regional member of *A

That's true. It was a really interesting operation. Nevertheless, it was at least in a 50 seater jet, not in a 30 seater turboprop. My guess was always that those routes were to some extent more a strategic move (becoming a *-member and ownership of valuable slots at FRA) than the result of long-term network planning.


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7377 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4347 times:
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Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 1):
Given that BA has cut back its franchises, I also don't think they are too keen to keep Sunair

Somehow BLL-MAN has not been purged despite BA's operations here having been decimated plus haven't they just added BLL-LCY?


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

Yes, but AFAIK BA has no say in what routes the franchisee is operating (probably with the exception that the franchisee is not allowed to compete on existing BA routes). It is just a franchise, not an affiliation, partnership etc. that would give BA a say in network planning etc. (at lteast that is my understanding).

User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4340 times:

http://www.therouteshop.com/billund-airport/

Quote:

Furthermore, a range of other destinations shows significant potential from Billund if operated by the right airline, appropriate equipment and frequency as well as accompanied by proper marketing support:
Vilnius, Palanga, Zürich, Berlin, Newcastle, Belfast, Aberdeen, Venice, Nurnberg and Stuttgart.

Could Sun Air try BLL-ABZ and BLL-NCL?



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2500 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4226 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 12):
t is just a franchise, not an affiliation, partnership etc. that would give BA a say in network planning etc. (at lteast that is my understanding).

That's true but Sun Air has already tried to operate flights outside its base (BRU-BRN) but that filed. Nothing says they wouldn't try it again.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 13):
Could Sun Air try BLL-ABZ and BLL-NCL?

They could but they have tried BLL-EDI and it hasn't worked.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4220 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 14):
They could but they have tried BLL-EDI and it hasn't worked.

That route is now covered by Ryanair. IIRC, Sun Air only oeprated it twice a week which was useless for business traffic



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineZuluTime From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Sun-Air renewed its franchise deal with BA last autumn and entered into another five-year contract.

User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3992 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 14):
That's true but Sun Air has already tried to operate flights outside its base (BRU-BRN) but that filed. Nothing says they wouldn't try it again.

I am pretty sure that the route involved some sort of subsidies. I would be surprised if it were otherwise. Considering the long list of airlines that all gave the route a try before but failed miserably, to start the route on a purley commercial basis who have been quite crazy.

The question we need to ask is probably why should they expand? The most successful independent small airlines nowadays seem to be those that have sticked to their core niche markets and kept pretty small - rather than wanting to play with the big boys. Expanding from a well established market always means capital expenditure and the need to cross-subsidize. It simply is a pretty risky business that in most cases results in failure - and only in the case of a few lucky ones in growing to a size that you will eventually get bought by one of the large carriers.

I am not sure, for example, if Cimber Air is on the right track at the moment.....


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3925 times:



Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 9):
Adria Airways was competing with LH and OS on the Vienna-Frankfurt or Vienna-Munich routes before becoming a regional member of *A

IIRC, weren't these routes code shared with LH? I seem to remember that LH was a risk-sharing partner in these flights, guaranteeing a certain number of seats on these flights. Or am I mixing up things?

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 17):
The question we need to ask is probably why should they expand? The most successful independent small airlines nowadays seem to be those that have sticked to their core niche markets and kept pretty small - rather than wanting to play with the big boys.

I actually do understand that companies want to grow. It's quite common  Wink

Actually, I think it's rather surprising that there are no large independent small-aircraft carriers in Europe. There are many niche-airlines, like Sun Air, Cirrus, Contact Air, Eastern Airways, Logan Air, LGW, Skyways, etc, etc, etc. These airlines fly niche routes, sometimes under a contract for other carriers (LGW for AB), sometimes as a Franchise, sometimes independent, sometimes a mix of these options. But for some reason, these carriers seem unable to grow beyond their actual size. Whereas, I would think, a larger (say 50+ aircraft) small-aircraft carrier can actually achieve cost savings by having more purchasing power.

In the US, there are big independent regional airlines like Mesa (163 aircraft) and Republic (incl. Chautauqua and Shuttle America, 200+ aircraft). Why doesn't that concept work in Europe?


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2500 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3817 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 18):
weren't these routes code shared with LH?

Before Adria was added to the *A regional members, they were competing against OS and LH on the route. Fares were better on JP and service was great.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineAidanoc5793 From Ireland, joined Apr 2009, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3798 times:

Can anyone tell me why Sun-Air is a franchise of BA? Does it operate any routes for BA? What is basically involved, I'm ashamed to say I do not know very much about it.

User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4920 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3696 times:



Quoting Joost (Reply 18):
Actually, I think it's rather surprising that there are no large independent small-aircraft carriers in Europe

Air Nostrum. Flybe?



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User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3645 times:



Quoting Humberside (Reply 21):
Air Nostrum.

Air Nostrum is indeed very similar to the US airlines I mentioned. How could I have forgotten this carrier? Independent, but selling it's services to IB. Still, for some reason, Air Nostrum doesn't operate for other airlines than IB. Why, for example, doesn't Air Nostrum also operate as Lufthansa Regional or Alitalia Express?

Quoting Humberside (Reply 21):
Flybe?

Flybe is also a nice example, although a bit different I think. For example, Flybe doesn't operate on behalf of other carriers. They're more like easyJet but with smaller aircraft, although they do have some code shares and interline agreements. And with (except for the last few ERJs that are leaving soon) a fleet of Q400s and E195s, they still operate reasonably large aircraft. (70+ seats).

But then, of course, you won't find an airline that is identical to another.


User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Wonder if they will get any feed from the new BA JFK-LCY service at LCY?

User currently offlineVeeseeten From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3569 times:

Has BA ever actively considered entering into a franchise relationship with the likes of Eastern Airways? After all, they do tend to promote themselves as a business flier-oriented airline.

25 Humberside : BA have dumped the franchise model in the UK and they are quite happy to leave regional links to others
26 Post contains links VV701 : All Sun-Air's scheduled flights carry BA flight number. Most of Sun-Air's aircraft are painted in BA colours. Sun-Air's flight crew wear BA uniforms.
27 TR : A few points to clear up things a bit * Sun-Air has been profitable every year since it was founded 30 years ago. The main reason for this is that the
28 AIR MALTA : If it can start the mentioned routes, that would be great. But Sun-Air, would have to be quicker than the giant VLM-CityJet duo. I expect them to sta
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