Nuggetsyl From United States of America, joined May 2006, 202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5923 times:
Well the the extreme number of employee to pax has to be wrong. There are 2 pilots per plane and 3 fas (narrow body) per plane. That is 5 per 150 and that is 30 to 1 already.
JER757 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 347 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5858 times:
Quoting Nuggetsyl (Reply 1): Well the the extreme number of employee to pax has to be wrong. There are 2 pilots per plane and 3 fas (narrow body) per plane. That is 5 per 150 and that is 30 to 1 already.
I think you misunderstood. How many pax will that crew of 5 fly over the course of a year? Thousands. FR carried 67 million pax last year. They don't have 13.4 million flight crew...
Its an interesting piece, although its nothing most of us didn't know already. The staff figures I contest slightly. FR may directly employ relatively few staff, however they have many many thousands more employed by 3rd party ground handling agencies etc. AFAIK FR have no 'front line' staff of their own on the ground.
Many legacy airlines have their own staff on check in, loading etc etc. Although this is more expensive, they are still the same staff carrying out the same duties, just employed directly by the airline.
The real savings come in management. Whereas the likes of BA have thousands of 'middle-management' effective sat there doing nothing, bleeding the company dry. LCCs have an extremely streamlined management structure which is designed to make money.
TheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5856 times:
Why did they add WN to that list and no US majors? As much as I'm not a huge fan of them, they actually offer more than many US major airlines and don't fit most of the "differences" like RyanAir or EasyJet.
Checko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
Nuggetsyl From United States of America, joined May 2006, 202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5681 times:
Quoting JER757 (Reply 2):
I think you misunderstood. How many pax will that crew of 5 fly over the course of a year? Thousands. FR carried 67 million pax last year. They don't have 13.4 million flight crew...
Eghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5576 times:
One of the dumbest articles I have ever read about airlines in years!
Where does the "average fare" figure come from? Are they talking about overall fares charged per passenger systemwide or the fare on the same route? If they are talking about the fares charged on the same route, how can they compare WN to BA, AF and LH when WN has no routes in common with any European carriers? If they are talking about fares system wide, then they are comparing the fare between Stansted and Hahn on Ryanair with a fare between LHR and NRT on BA.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 12883 posts, RR: 30 Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5549 times:
Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 3): Why did they add WN to that list and no US majors?
I was gonna ask the same thing.
As far as the ticket selling, WN is nearly 100% selling tickets via its own website. That chart is wrong. Also, WN flies into big markets, too, again, the chart is wrong.
Quoting Eghansen (Reply 5): One of the dumbest articles I have ever read about airlines in years!
Agreed. Who wrote that thing anyway?!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
JER757 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 347 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5444 times:
Quoting Eghansen (Reply 5): One of the dumbest articles I have ever read about airlines in years!
For aviation enthusiasts yes it is. However I think it gives the general public an idea of how LCCs manage to be succesful. The fact is the majority of LCCs have high density seating, fast turnarounds, point to point flights etc. Yes WN is an exception to some of those rules, but isn't there an exception to every rule?
The numbers themselves may be slightly debatable, however as an overview I think it paints a more or less correct picture.
Toltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3076 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5257 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
As far as the ticket selling, WN is nearly 100% selling tickets via its own website.
Actually, the percentage booked via the website has gone down slightly in the past few years. But it was never over 80%. WN realized they were missing out on a big % of business travellers by not being in the US GDS systems. So they got back in now that the cost of being in has gotten realistic.
TheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1106 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5161 times:
Quoting JER757 (Reply 7): Yes WN is an exception to some of those rules, but isn't there an exception to every rule?
Of course, but adding WN and not putting a US major in the other column just doesn't make sense. The US and European airline markets are very very different and the comparisons they are trying to make just don't hold up.
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 5878 posts, RR: 74 Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5109 times:
I do wonder if the Passengers per employee[i] takes into account the outsourcing staff...
And I wonder how the [i]average fare was calculated? Oh oops, someone mentioned that already...
Quoting JER757 (Reply 2): The real savings come in management. Whereas the likes of BA have thousands of 'middle-management' effective sat there doing nothing, bleeding the company dry. LCCs have an extremely streamlined management structure which is designed to make money.
This is true, but also on the variable proportion of staff (incl crew) income, which WN is notorious for until recent years... puny salaries but huge annual dividends making it up to be better than a lot of their contemporaries.... but then, that's hearsay stuff...
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 9): But it was never over 80%. WN realized they were missing out on a big % of business travellers by not being in the US GDS systems. So they got back in now that the cost of being in has gotten realistic.
So has JetBlue I heard... several Navitaire systems users have mentioned intentions on going to Sabre I hear... (but then there was another rumor that Sabre was going to take over Navitaire anyways).
I guess in the old days, ticketless travel was great when everyone used paper tickets... but nowadays, with e-tickets... the ticketless method does look far less attractive.
Quoting JER757 (Reply 8): PS. If you look at the source at the very bottom of the page - it sounds like its based on relatively respectable data and opinion.
ELFAA? Doesn't that raise the "objectivity red flag" just a little a bit?
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Whoever it was they certainly didn't notice their terrible spelling of Aer Lingus (Aer Lyngus lol) which is all the more strange as a very small distance from said typo there is an Aer Lingus logo!
Eghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5062 times:
Quoting JER757 (Reply 7): However I think it gives the general public an idea of how LCCs manage to be succesful.
If I thought it gave the general public an idea of how LCCs manage to be successful, I would not have called it one of the dumbest articles I have ever seen.
I will give you that it obviously refers to European LCCs because nearly all of the reasons cited for lower fares do not apply to the US.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 6488 posts, RR: 25 Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4495 times:
comparing apples and peaches always goes wrong.
There are more mistakes in that comparison than just misspelling the name of an Irsih airline.
Take the distribution costs - there is no commission for travel agents any longer and therefore no addtitional cost for that.
How can one compare a point-to-point carrier without any interlining with a combination carrier (pax and cargo) having short/medium/long distance traffic and feeding hubs to own and other carriers services0
How can one compare a company doing its own maintenance with a company sourcing this out?
StarAlliance38 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1445 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3691 times:
Oh dear, sounds like this chart is messed up. I can't even see the thing .
Steve6666 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 309 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3216 times:
Quoting JER757 (Reply 2): The real savings come in management. Whereas the likes of BA have thousands of 'middle-management' effective sat there doing nothing, bleeding the company dry. LCCs have an extremely streamlined management structure which is designed to make money.
Utter rubbish. It's the entire low cost operation structure - from vastly higher asset utilisation, higher staff utilisation, everything in the operation that adds unnecessary cost is eliminated.
Management is just a fixed level of overhead that does not vary significantly with the level of activity. Do you think Ryanair is a load of flight deck and cabin crew with just MOL sat on top in a portacabin somewhere?
What costs in BA is, for example, legacy staffing issues that result in sending crew places like Mexico City to sit on their backsides and do nothing from 7pm Monday to 9pm Friday, or paying CSDs £65-70k a year to swan around making too many announcements and talking to pax? I had one yesterday come talk to me for half an hour - nice man, but it's not really a job....
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