Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8835 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 35171 times:
Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 4): Nevertheless it is being published in major newspapers like the Times and USAtoday.....
unfortunately with falling circulation newspapers can no longer afford proper journalists , these days being a 'journalist' seems to consist of trawling the internet and quoting whatever random nonsense is found . Nobody knows what caused this crash despite everything being spouted as 'fact' here and in the media . To ground a 1000 aircraft on the strength of nothing more than lazy 'journalism' seems a bit extreme .
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Rsg85 From Australia, joined Aug 2006, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 34990 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5): To ground a 1000 aircraft on the strength of nothing more than lazy 'journalism' seems a bit extreme .
If this journalist was on an a330/a340 tomorrow they probably wouldnt even realise it
i had to laugh when i saw the first line of the article "Airbus is expected to face calls to ground its worldwide fleet of long-range airliners tomorrow"
so airbus has thier own airline now? a worldwide fleet of thier own? this journo has no idea
“EASA has a legal and moral obligation to get to the bottom of this problem now. If there is a defective system and the aircraft is unsafe then it should be grounded,” said James Healy-Pratt of Stewarts Law in London. The firm, which specialises in aviation, is representing the families of 20 of the victims of flight 447.
OK... a law firm is asking for the aircraft to be grounded...
If there's a defective system and the aircraft is unsafe...
OK, we have a few occurences (small proportion) of these things happening, and so far, only 1 crashed... which might not have been caused by the same defect... This law firm is jumping the gun.
Just because someone died around the same time Hannibal Lecter was walking around the neighborhood doesn't mean he did it...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4579 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 34677 times:
The news article is based on what a Lawyer in London, U.K. is trying to do. This story turns out to be a bunch of conjecture and supposition. It stated right in the article that they had not found the black boxes yet and that there has been no causation established by official sources. If the Pitot tubes are at fault, Has there been any other crashes by the A330 directly cased by the information provided by these devices? The A310 that crashed of the Comoros coast was landing during a storm and is believed to be weather related, as was the A330 crash off Brazil. Maybe we should only fly in perfect weather.
Phollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 34546 times:
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 1): Its a news article about something that is not fact....
It is a fact, the article is not specific as to who is going to be doing the asking; or consequently, if they will be taken seriously, but there are people out there, some of whom will probably be at the hearing that are saying just that. That being said I think it would be highly unlikely that EASA would issue an order to ground the aircraft. Fundamentally, EASA has the legal right to suspend the TC for any model of Airbus aircraft.
Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 4): Nevertheless it is being published in major newspapers like the Times and USAtoday.....having this in the press is almost worse that actually grounding the aircraft.
Not really, unless an airline is so short of cash that it cannot take a delay in ticket purchases for a day or two these stories should have little effect on revenue.
Let us do a thought experiment. Lets say that EASA is "convinced" that the only way to ensure safe operation is to suspend the TC for the A330/A340 class aircraft. Since most of the other TCs that have been issued were issued based upon the EASA/JAA TC they would also, most likely, be suspended. In the case of the FAA TC it would have to be suspended as the validation would no longer stand, as Airbus aircraft are not certified in the US but their certifications are validated. This would effectively lead to a world wide grounding.
Ok, as I said that is unlikely to happen. What we do know is that there were indications of a string of what were effectively AIRDU failures on the AF flight. These failures are similar to those that have occurred when the pitot tubes of other A330/A340s have become occluded. These occlusions are continuing to happen. The likelihood of this happening is mitigated by switching out the sensors to a different, but from a certification point of view, equivalent model. However, there are some internal issues with the failure modes of the AIRDUs that are concerning. As such I think that it is highly likely that ADs will be issued concerning the sensors, and procedures for handling failures (as Airbus has already issued notices and bulletins to that effect). It also seems likely that some form of Emergency AD will be issued, especially in the US. On the outside these ADs might call for the grounding until replacement of two of the three pitot tubes. This would only effect a portion (might be a large portion) of the fleet, and not the whole fleet.
Quoting JAL (Reply 3): If it's true, this would create travel chaos all over the airline industry!
Yes it would, and EASA and other authorities will weigh this in any decision. Of course it is not like there is no precedent for an authority doing this, think about the FAA's suspension of the DC10 TC. At least with the DC10 there were a couple of fatal accidents in relatively short order (even though they were not directly related). As of yet there has only been one fatal accident of the A330.
Richierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4470 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 34545 times:
Did this come from the supermarket tabloids like News of the World or National Enquirer?
Anybody who seriously believes that there is a systemic problem with Airbus long-range aircraft because of the tragic events of the past month are, frankly, completely out of touch with reality or have no knowledge at all of the transportation industry. If Airbus should send a notice to all airlines to ground their Airbus long-haul aircraft (which wouldn't happen, of course), then shouldn't Boeing do the same to tell airlines to ground their Boeing short-haul fleet? There seem to have been a lot of B737 accidents over the past five years (sarcasm...)
The complete muddying of a manufacturer's reputation after an accident or string of (often unrelated) accidents is always mystifying to me. The media have a lot of power and, in the US at least, are generally protected by the Constitution. The general public seem incapable of making logical, well-informed decisions any moire. It is almost forgotten that until the tragic crash of AF447, the A330 had a perfect record in commercial service since its introduction some 15 years ago. The A340 and B777 have similarly excellent records - albeit a couple of close calls - but considering the number of these jets in operation today, on fleets all around the world, I personally think it is pretty amazing. Of course AF447 was a horrible tragedy and I am really hoping the causes can be pieced together - but to draw any conclusions solely because it was an Airbus twin-aisle is truly grasping at straws.
OK, so maybe changing the pitot tubes and speed sensors on the A330s and A340s was a prudent, if not necessary, step to make. It makes people feel better anyway, like something is being done. But for anybody to recommend grounding - based on one crash that may or may not have been the fault of the aircraft - is beyond ridiculous and does not deserve any further justification in my opinion.
Offloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 1134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 34362 times:
There weren't 20 British victims so I don't get why a London firm is representing 20 families. If this does end up in court wouldn't it be in France / Brazil? Maybe the lawyers think AF/Airbus will dig deeper into their pockets by making such statements to the media. I'm sure there is some strategy behind this even if one's initial reaction is "what a bunch of *****"
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
Rikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1789 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 34234 times:
Lets not forget the capability of the A330 during fuel starvation (Air Transat). Obviously pilot skills play the primary role in flying on of the worlds largest gliders (remember also the Air Canada 767 gimli glider).
Seems to me that in both cases, the entire fleet of both aircraft should have been grounded due to the loss / lack of fuel....
GBan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 33849 times:
The same article came up in the AF accident thread, where I posted this:
Just did a quick search for Bremner (the author of the article) and found this (dating June 2nd):
Like any clever dick, er word hack, Bremner could fool you with his journalistic jingoisms -- seemingly factual but after a closer scrutiny, i.e., if you read between the lines, his "reporting" is often peppered with double entrendre, i.e., half malicious insinuations, which he plays to the hilt for the benefit of his adoring regular commenters (blogger here exempted).
In fact, Bremner will report -- and I suspect quite gleefully -- on anything that would attract the hungry pack of anti-French wolverines just like when he published a full-length article based on a piece by British smutty tabloid Daily Mail. And on the basis of that unverified report, Bremner opines...
Manfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 33444 times:
I would be completely convinced this was an isolated incident if there weren't other
complaints of erroneous readings in other aircraft. If indeed this is true, some kind of action does need to be taken. The proposed one, of course, is ridiculous.
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 7): OK, we have a few occurrences (small proportion) of these things happening, and so far, only 1 crashed... which might not have been caused by the same defect... This law firm is jumping the gun.
The way you have worded this screams investigation in a lawyers mind.
But let's just ask the question: Would we have the same reaction to the 737 rudder problems years back? Would we have "jumped the gun" concluding that this is just journalism gone mad? It ended up being a serious issue. One which was handled correctly in my opinion.
French authorities will tomorrow [2 July 2009] give an interim statement on their investigation into the loss of an Air France Airbus off Brazil on 1 June 2009.
They are expected to report that unreliable and conflicting speed data from the onboard electronics were important factors in the accident, which killed 228 people.
The statement will be issued by the Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses, the French accident investigation agency.
James Healy-Pratt of Stewarts Law in London, which represents the families of 20 of the victims of flight 447, said: "EASA has a legal and moral obligation to get to the bottom of this problem now. If there is a defective system and the aircraft is unsafe then it should be grounded".
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
Rampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3198 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 32512 times:
All of you are right, of course. But, public opinion is snowballing, aided in part by the press, blogs, and discussion forums. Radio news this morning said that a Yemenia flight out of CDG was forced to cancel due to a public demonstration at the airport. It's spreading. Regulators and politicians are going to want to address the public concerns, and it may mean asking Airbus to alay the concerns. If it takes uncommon measures to do that, I would not be surprised. It may not stop with Airbus, either, if a more general concern is supposed.
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 31327 times:
Quoting Rampart (Reply 22): It may not stop with Airbus, either, if a more general concern is supposed.
Isn't that a fact too!! Especially with experimental evidence that a high proportion of folk getting off a long distance flight have no idea if the plane has two, three or four engines! How would they know the difference between types or manufacturers.
: The law firm is positioning itself. If Airbus fails to ground then they will take the position of the greedy, heartless super rich corporation that t
: From the same site: http://timescorrespondents.typepad.c...d-facts-over-airbus-disasters.html I offer no critique of this link other to say that I was
: Title article: Airbus could be asked to ground all long-range airliners Title on a.net: A subtle difference..
: I just did a quick search and found the following : 252 people died on A330 since it entered service in 1992. 850 people died on B767 since it entered
: Couldn't agree more. Can we at a.net agree to not try and sensationalize our posts? Apologies if it was an unintentional mistake but I think we can a
: The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch...I'm sure the "Sun" will chime in too.
: It gives a whole new meaning to the theory of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty..." doesn't it? Blaming the recent incidents on Airbus itself is not prop
: We do? News to me; I was sitting here waiting for the investigation to conclude.
: A very good point. The a.net title does not accurately reflect the headline, compounding the problem that the headline does not accurately reflect th
: I assume coincidence, there have been a couple sets of non-terrorism rapid succession accidents of Boeing widebody aircraft, they all happen to invol
: Richierich Reply 12 -Anybody who seriously believes that there is a systemic problem with Airbus long-range aircraft because of the tragic events of t
: Let's just be safe and ground everything with a pitot tube until a new system for measuring airspeed can be created. Just in the interest of safety.
: We have a winner!!!! Within two or three days of the Colgan Q400 going down in Buffalo there was at least one law firm demanding that all Q400s be gr
: You must have not been paying too much attention then. You are right however that the investigation may determine the events that led to the crash. W
: I don't think Airbus really has the authority to do that. I think that is the respective government's authority, for example, here in the U.S. the FA
: Some may think The Times being a famous old paper, is more reputable. Sadly, for many years it's been owned by Rupert Murdoch, who the media savvy wil
: They should ground 747s because a bomb blew one up, and 2 of them collided into each other which was the 2nd worse loss of life in civil aviation, oh
: this is irresponsible sensationalism. can't even believe the original poster cited it.
: Word of advice to those sourcing from mainstream media, if it is a potential major news story, which if true this would be, why not first check out re
: In all honesty, I don't see why all of you do have a problem with the sentence: "Airbus To Be Asked To Ground All Long Range Jets". Just in fact, ther
: Strikes me as being another case of an ambulance chaser, who knows nothing about that of which he speaks, being out to maximise the payout; & hence hi
: Complete and utter ignorant journalist twaddle!
: And what caused the crash? Please enlighten us... So, how BAD was the weather they flew through? I guess you missed the comments that the weather was
: The writer of the article from the Times had to be an ignorant bum because he comes from a Murdock company? I hope many of you don't take yourselves t
: Agree. The media, regardless how credible they are, is creating a mainstream buzz connecting danger and A330/Airbus in general. It's catching on and
: I can understand why people are concerned over the safety of wide body Airbus' when two of them have just crashed in somewhat similar conditions in a
: Well to be honest. linking those two incidence is just, well...... you know. Both aircrafts, the A310 and A330 share the fuselage... That's about it.
: Why? it is a fair topic to discuss...it is only appearing in MAJOR newspapers. I simply posted it out of interest for you all. This is a forum after
: This law firm is doing some pretty dispicable tactics to win some extra money. These planes have proven they are safe. If this sort of detail were eno
: I guess I'm wondering why the pitot tube would be a cause for concern - seems to me to be a simple device - other than it clogging because of ice or
: Grounding would be done by the regulatory agency that issued the type certificate. I am sure McDonnell Douglas said the same thing? No more than grou
: Yes, and? He's a French guy who has flown little planes. So what? Well then connect them for us. What caused them? Why weren't 737's grounded when th
: Unfortunately, when sensational journalism takes over discussions become difficult. Playing devils advocate here, one could also say that the A330 /
: Isn't it time to start a competition "post of the month"?
: They should ban these pitot tube things with all the accidents they cause!
: I also ask what type of plane they are putting me on, but from now on I will also ask whether it has a pitot tube and if it does, I will not fly!
: This is starting to become a major problem. I doubt Airbus will ever have to ground all long range jets, but in time, I think the problems with pitot
: I could have sworn that air transat was an a310?
: Your thinking of another Air Transat incident. The fuel starvation was indeed on an A330. The A310 incident your thinking of was the rrudder detached
: That's certainly possible, but unless you work with flight-critical aviation software, it's difficult to explain the difference to people between tha
: Yeah, indeed only 1. And only 228 people died.. Oh, since when do only fatal accidents count? I hope you are right, but the same was said when thos 7
: Well to get technical there have been 2. http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...®=F-WWKH&airline=Airbus+Industrie But that was not passenger service
: Its now JULY 2. Where's the announcemnet?
: Not sure if this is sarcasm, but if it is not... oh boy, oh boy.
: If I'm not mistaken there's a BEA press conference 1300 GMT.