1 Pihero: This is the final part of the sleuthing work we did. It's about how these ACARS messages could have been translated into the flight-deck environment a
2 Reltney: Great info! Sounds factual and ugly. Small correction needed to be correct Not true! If the Capt was the PF and went back to rest, the relief pilot ta
3 Alberchico: So now that its been officially 30 days and the signal on the black box is either dead or very faint what will happen ? Will they keep looking for it
4 Theredbaron: I am no expert on Black boxes (actually orange), but I guess that if they are no t able to locate them before the beacon signal is lost due to exhaust
5 Mascmo: That is all I keep thinking about...we may never truly know what happened to AF flight 447. I hope this is not the case and by some miracle they do fi
6 Pihero: What I described is the AF SOP. A pilot, unless he/she is LH seat-qualified must operate from the RHS.. In your description, there would have a trans
7 VirginFlyer: In the South African Airways 295 (Helderberg) accident, the CVR was recovered from the Indian Ocean around a year after the accident I believe,using
8 Pihero: Thanks, VF. Methodology and human resources management. Contrarily to quite a few posters, I believe that Flight447 will be found and its mysteries s
9 AutoThrust: As far as i know they found several watches from passangers which had stopped at the impact. They could extrapolate the approx. position from the pla
10 FCA767: But then again...We already know the approximate time it broke up...and i bet a watch could be 2 minutes out if we only found 1 person...and alot are
11 NAV20: Strictly speaking, FCA767, we only know the (approximate) time that the signals stopped. I gather that the next step, if they can't locate the boxes
12 Meta: According to the breaking news on msnbc and cnn, "French investigators say Flight 447 was not destroyed in flight, fell vertically"[Edited 2009-07-02
13 NAV20: A bit more detail here:- The key sentences so far have been: - The airplane did NOT break up in flight - The 24 ACARS messages refer to the loss of ai
14 UALWN: You just beat me to it. Same news in Le Figaro (in French): http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...f447-pas-de-dislocation-en-vol.php I hope there wi
15 AVLNative: Where is the crew rest area located in relation to the cargo/baggage area?
16 Golftango: But wouldn't a nose dive into the Atlantic make for little or no human remains like SR111? I find it hard to believe this.
17 BA84: Crew Rest Module is in rear cargo. This is for FA's only. Pilot bunk is behind cockpit, or pilots rest in First Class. BA84
18 Bsalako: PARIS (Reuters) - The state of the wreckage from Air France flight AF 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, which crashed on June 1 with 228 people on boa
19 NAV20: Press conference is over. Apparently all the BEA said was:- "The BEA has concluded their press conference introducing the results of their investigati
20 AVLNative: I am no pilot and don't pretend to be, but the way I read this is that vertically does not necessarily mean nose dive. If the plane were to go into a
21 MadameConcorde: This is a long thread so I am not sure if this was already posted. French say sensors not cause of Flight 447 crash http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/2009070
22 Comorin: From avherald.com: The Original BEA English translation said: The airplane went down vertically, a review of French wording offers a different pictur
23 Pihero: Nothing was said to that effect only that the messages related to (I quote) : "incoherent measured airspeed" Completely wrong : The French words were
24 Racko: Coming down vertically doesn't necessarily mean that it hit the water at a 90° angle or close to it.
25 Khobar: "The plane went straight down, almost vertically, towards the surface of the water, very very fast." Alain Bouillard, of the BEA accident investigatio
26 HangarRat: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americ...07/02/air.france.report/index.html What I got from a read of the CNN story is that the plane "pancaked" into th
27 NAV20: Perfectly possible, Pihero. Thing is, the whole darned 'conference' brings us not one inch (or even a centimetre!) closer to knowing how and why 228
28 Pihero: Nav, it's not only perfectly possible, it is the truth. As for what the conference brought, I have said and I'm not surprised that we didn't get a se
29 Osteogenesis: Hello NAV20. Do you have a link to the content of the conference? I am still having problems to find out what was actually said. The media report is
30 Giopan1975: I guess a belly flop would explain the large pieces found. It could also suggest that the plane was stalling seconds before impact.
31 NAV20: Only the Aviationherald' site that I've provided links to, so far, Osteo.........
32 Sebolino: Wow ! This is absolutely not the same level of precision. The French original version is very clear that the plane fell down but didn't nose dive int
33 Osteogenesis: I am just amazed of the media and how they work!! Lost in translation! In fact the spiegel has what seems to be a pretty good article: http://www.spie
34 RFields5421: I don't think a lot of people, including news media rewriters, under stand the concept of a flat spin or steep vertical component without a nose dive
35 NAV20: Please see my earlier post, Sebolino - I didn't 'say' that, I just quoted the Aviation Herald site as saying that........ In any case, I've repeatedl
37 Osteogenesis: Well then they should not write about it. Fast but not acurate. I suggest that we all first analyse what has been said and then we see how much new t
38 BrouAviation: Does this information implicate the aircraft was actually in a flat spin, probably caused by a stall? Can this flat spin have anything to do with the
39 Ogre727: "The Air France plane that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean off Brazil last month with 228 people aboard "did not break up or become destroyed in fligh
40 Pihero: For those interested, the BEA has just published the interim report HERE Should cut on a lot of misinterpretations.
41 Golftango: Apples to Oranges. That A320 was at 3,000 feet and hit the water with a 14 degree nose down pitch. AF447 was at cruise altitude and would have hit th
42 Osteogenesis: Do not trust CNN on airplane news.
43 GRIVely: This is a very puzzling case. It seems the more we hear the less we understand. Let's see: It wasn't weather, according to the latest theories. The pi
44 Mandala499: Many has said, hitting water at high speed is like hitting concrete... Prior to this preliminary brief, we were stuck at 2 possible scenarios... 1. Hi
45 RFields5421: From the BEA report - English translation Bottom of page 37
46 NAV20: Thanks, Pihero. Read it through, and a few sentences sort of 'leapt out' at me:- "1.13 Medical and Pathological Information "Sailors from the Frigate
47 RFields5421: Regarding the 'panic' of the NTSB in investigating A330 speed issues - from the BEA report The NTSB is investigating A330 incidents at the REQUEST of
48 AirlineCritic: You do not know what speed it hit the water. Its not like the plane necessarily dropped out of the sky; nose dive, flat spin, flying in control but l
49 RFields5421: This is only an early preliminary report - of the investigation and the actions of only one of the agencies / countries involved in the fact gatherin
50 RFields5421: Regarding communications with the missing plane - and how 'easy' or 'hard' it is to communicate in that region - from page 66 of the report describing
51 AWACSooner: If it went into a flat spin, could that have been the result of the tail snapping off (ala AA587) due to turbulence?
52 RFields5421: The BEA report describes the tail fin damage - both the damage caused during the recovery and that presumably in the separation. Page 35 which photos
53 Pylon101: We are really lost in enterpreting. The Russian News Channel translated the press conference live. But translation was pretty bad: they constantly mix
54 AirbusA370: Wouldn't a flat spin induce some pretty unreliable airspeed data? Maybe this was only a symptom of the aircraft being out of control and not the reaso
55 ULMFlyer: When I read the "straight down, almost vertically" quote (attributed to Reuters) on Avweb this morning, I almost spilled my coffee on the keyboard. Es
56 Canoecarrier: Kieran is reporting that during the conference they said that a second phase of the search using different methods (e.g., uautonomous underwater vehi
57 NA: Valid point. I cant believe that the BEA has not has had access to autopsy data yet. If thats true, then either - the Brazilian forensic doctors are
58 Golftango: Now that I understand this was more or less a flat spin, then I retract this. I was reacting to the source that this was a nose down plunge into the
59 Goooooaaal: surprising to me that if it was not a mid air breakup, and it hit the water at high vertical velocity, that the bodies that were found were in such re
60 Spacecadet: The CNN article I'm reading right now says this directly after the part you quoted: Based on visual study of the physical remains of the Airbus A330
61 Giopan1975: No mention at all! How come? Also, AF447 seems to be the only flight not avoiding big cloud masses. What impresses me a lot is that the two co-pilots
62 777Daedalus: Wih respect to today's BEA transcript, can any pilots comment on the degree of "back and forth" between ATLANTICO - DAKAR centres (and other centres)
63 Mandala499: Just like to point out the following: We have FPV unavailable and ATC Altitude Report leading to TCAS fail... I seem to have missed this... after look
64 Spacecadet: No. They are clearly stating it hit the water in a belly flop. They provide visual evidence of the wreckage to support the claim in the report, inclu
65 RFields5421: There was a lot of back and forth spread over HOURS. To me the one big missing question is how many other aircraft did Dakar or Atlantico or SAL have
66 Airzim: I've been privy to some speculative chatter in the pilot community particularly since the NW incident from HKG-NRT. The consensus from these Boeing an
67 Zeke: I would strongly suggest that the aircraft was not in a spin, a large airliners are very very stable. US Airways flight 1549 exhibited crushing of th
68 Spacecadet: Except that this did not happen. Read the report. It's linked above. The tail was torn off by impact forces, just like every other piece of the plane
69 Jokestar: I'm 18 and currently hold 158 hours of flying time, having flown since I was 15. If I'm still flying when I'm 34, I will have 19 years of experience
70 Widebody: You'd better tell your pilot friends to update their training then. The A330 has built in protection against this possibility, the A300 didn't. And t
71 Wexfordflyer: Not sure if this has been metioned already. I have had a look back through but you will appreciate there is an awful lot to trawl through. Has there b
72 Airzim: Explain why the tail was 50 miles from the rest of the wreckage. Please find e-mail below. I have redacted the name of the author and pilot. I continu
73 Airzim: You're assuming the plane was at cruise.
74 Pliersinsight: Reminds me of Private training when I first started doing stalls and was once or twice was stupidly thinking I could feel the slowdown without checki
75 WingedMigrator: It wasn't. See page 34 of the BEA report for a map of the debris field. The tail was found among the rest of the wreckage.
76 LTC8K6: Why would a pilot repeat the error about losing rudder limits? I know little about how Airbus FBW works at all. But even I understand that the protec
77 Racko: It is amazing that even today there are people out there who believe every hoax that hits their mailbox.[Edited 2009-07-02 13:02:56]
78 Sniffmom: Seems you heard right: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8128794.stm I haven't seen any figures lately for how many having been ide
79 Cyberflyer: I am not buying any of this. They recovered bodies? From a "vertical" carsh? No way bodies, in any part survive. Hitting water is worse than htting co
80 Airzim: Would you like to explain this directly to him?
81 Spacecadet: You obviously did not do what I asked you to do in my last reply and read the report. That's all you need to do. It will answer all of your questions
82 Movingtin: I for one, am not going to just accept a preliminary report as the gospel truth, when in fact they have virtually no hard evidence at all, much less
83 Spacecadet: Yes, they have no hard evidence except the wreckage of the tail. Criminy. I'm done with this. The investigative team has dozens of engineers speciali
84 Movingtin: The problem with that is the only way it knows its good is comparing to itself to another, what if they both are wrong? Which goes back to the fact t
85 Movingtin: [/quote] Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 68): Except that this did not happen. Read the report. It's linked above. The tail was torn off by impact forces, j
86 BuyantUkhaa: For those who are curious: http://www.jetcrashforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7 Incident also discussed here: NW #008, A333 Faulty Air Speed Indicator.
87 Movingtin: looking at the pictures of the Galley laying on the ship, the 2 upper galley stabilizing attach points look to me as if they have been bent sideways,
88 Racko: http://www.iag-inc.com/premium/pilots.m3u 66 minutes podcast discussing the interim report with 2 FBW-Airbus pilots from http://iag-inc.com/[Edited 20
89 Pihero: I had time to watch the press conference on BFM-TV this afternoon before going to work and the BEA spokesman, Alain Bouillard confirmed quite a few th
90 Wexfordflyer: " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/n...4.stm Cheers for that, much appreciated!!!
91 AVLNative: Here we go with the press - this time the AP - the impression is that the plane literally fell out of the sky. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/French...
92 Osiris30: Ok guys, questions here because I haven't seen *anyone* comment on this and maybe I'm missing something but... Page 51 through page 53 of the report..
93 LTC8K6: That has been covered very thoroughly already.
94 Moman: I don't buy it either. This is not meant as a slight to any of our French friends, but it seems a little suspicious to me that not only have no large
95 VirginFlyer: The problem is, they can only make conclusions from the evidence they have. If there is only little evidence found, then their conclusions have to be
96 NAV20: I too thought that that was the weakest part of the report, Osiris30. No attempt to explain the implications of all those systems 'dropping out.' One
97 Osiris30: Actually I think a pretty clear statement was made in the report, and I know I'll get flamed for days for this, but; It reads an awful lot to me like
98 Weizenjaeger: I don't see where the Interim Report makes mention of the collision with the A321 that was discussed in AF A332 Crash (F-GZCP) - Part 9 Yes, I underst
99 NAV20: There's another 'oddity' too - about the report saying that "At this stage of the investigation, the BEA has not yet had access to the autopsy data."
100 Flood: Where's the oddity? Participating as observers is one thing, providing the actual data is another. There's no conflict between the interim report and
101 NAV20: Yes Flood, on reflection you're probably dead right. Maybe the Brazilian police follow French practice and start off with a criminal investigation of
102 Mandala499: So have a lot of us... and some of us are privy to speculative chatter of the pilot/engineer/investigator community that are not open to the public..
103 Alhena: According to this report http://www.estadao.com.br/cidades/not_cid396099,0.htm 35 of the 51 bodies have been identified (report is from wednesday 1 J
104 Sebolino: I think it's a fact the the plane lost its rudder limit protection (at least the protection was maybe not the right one), but it doesn't mean that th
105 NA: The aircraft hit the water on a even keel AND a forward movement. That explains it. Its in the report. Thanks for all your explanations, but this is
106 Pihero: Shook me too, as it was repeated three or four times durimg the press conference. I believe that they are rounding up the time to the nearest minute.
107 Giopan1975: Firstly, I find it difficult to understand people who doubt this initial report and invent conspiracy theories. If there is any cover up in favor of A
108 UALWN: I thought that in one of the 20 parts of this thread it had been established that newer 330s, including AF447, did have FBW rudder systems. Not that
109 Mandala499: Yes... Take your pick: A330 with mechanical rudder: A330 with FBW rudder: They did mention this part actually... U mean impact whilst recovering from
110 Breiz: The Brazilian police has just clarified that the information was not forwarded to the French authorities because the French had not requested it ??!!
111 Pihero: Yes. But the dive doesn't necessarily need to be high energy...I'll mail you that tonight. We might even have the transition or part of it... Look at
112 NAV20: Thanks, Breiz........honestly, if you put that sort of 'mal-administration' in a movie script, all the people leaving the cinema would be saying that
113 Sniffmom: Thanks for the update! Reading it, I see they're still not going to disclose the nationalites other than saying whether they are Brazilian or foreign
114 BAW716: Assuming that the A332 was at altitude when all of this occurred, this was just flat ugly. Reading through the ACARS synopsis, it would seem that ther
115 AirlineCritic: Please remember that the report that came out was indeed a preliminary report. That is, there's a lot that they have not had time to put in writing, o
116 VirginFlyer: A few of us warned of this a while back - people who were stringently clinging to their theories of tails falling off or ADIRUs going mental (which I
117 AirlineCritic: The report provides some new information on when and how the fact that AF447 was missing was understood. The report states that the information is "fr
118 Osteogenesis: In order to do that you need a lot of knowledge and information. Both is missing on 99% of forum members. Including me of course.
119 NAV20: If he's familiar with English slang, VirginFlier mate, he'd probably be grateful if you left the 'r' out of it! It's 'Aslanian' ..... On the ot
120 NA: How can that possibly be (though the BEA comments point in that direction)? If true, its proof for ignorants at work - on both sides of the Atlantic.
121 Theredbaron: I don't want to create a sense of conspiracy here because I think this tragedy demands respect, and a conspiracy theory needs a justification or a ben
122 Giopan1975: Good question! I asked myself exactly the same but as I tried to follow the link to BEA report and go the page with the tables in black where they ex
123 Canoecarrier: I could be wrong but I believe that was discussed in an earlier thread as not necessarily a loss of cabin pressure but that the plane could have been
124 ULMFlyer: So, he works for the NTSB too????? There was NEVER any msg about loss of cabin pressure. It was about cabin vertical speed exceeding certain limits (
125 Pihero: Careful with interpretation. You still don't know where the origin of the "fall "was, therefore you don't know where the wreck(s) is/are. Considering
126 MrBasiat: Jul 3rd, 2009 | BRASILIA, Brazil -- Brazil's air force has released a recording it says proves it handed over control of Air France Flight 447 to Sene
127 Baroque: Looks quite like a Comet re-run to me. However, what was pioneering in the days of the Comet is now routine so the speed of some preliminary conclusi
128 Larshjort: It might be a big mistake, but tey are required to release a preliminary report after a maximum of 1 month after the accident. /Lars
129 Victrola: What is a flat spin? Is this like the motion of a Frisbee in flight? Forgive me if I missed something in this thread, but do they know if the plane wa
130 RFields5421: The 'confusion' is something I saw first hand about 36 years ago. What the reports reads to me is Air France and various sector controllers dealing w
131 Zeke: Watch Top Gun, .... it in my view has nothing to do with AF447, but what would I know !!! I mentioned before in this thread, it would be impossible t
132 Osiris30: Very very very minor point of order Zeke; it would be impossible to do in a fully intact modern airliner. If some part (and no I don't just mean the
133 Peergynt: Is it common that the country, to which the crashed aircraft belongs to, to carry the investigation of the accident? Why is everything being sent to B
134 BuyantUkhaa: Normally it is the country where the crash takes place. In international territory, normally the country where the airline is based. Such as?
135 RFields5421: If the crash is in international waters, yes - the nation of registration of the aircraft has responsibility to investigate. These responsibilities a
136 Klwright69: Thanks your that input Jokestar.. Giopan, I think you should not judge people soley by their ages. Wars, especially World War 2, have been won on the
137 GBan: Here it is: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/AAR0404.pdf You either haven't read it or you haven't understood the report. Otherwise you'd never writ
138 JBirdAV8r: Age has little to do with it. Boils down to: Experience Maturity Decision-making ability (goes to experience and maturity) All of which of course sho
139 Astuteman: The only issue here is the tail came off AA587 at WAY more than the design load. So there was no fault either of the design of the rudder, or its man
140 Klwright69: You have made a good point... I do not think there would be another "Comet" like defect in today's age of modern jet aerodynmics, but this accident c
141 Peergynt: Such as this: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...M77Lb1EAP0TMnVOKRHi5QEHFgD9971GQ00
142 BackSeater: During Mr. Bouillard's press conference yesterday, I was puzzled to hear him make the following statement:: "Aucun gilet de sauvetage gonflé n'a ét
143 RFields5421: This is an argument over procedure, not a false statement by anyone. In some jurisdictions - ATC control of an aircraft passes to the new sector when
144 WingedMigrator: The first floating debris were not found until six days after the crash, during which time they drifted and spread apart due to winds and ocean curre
145 Viscount724: Not quite as "modern" although it was technically-advanced for the time, but a Hawker-Siddeley Trident was lost,killing the 4 crew, due to a flat spi
146 Spacecadet: If you look at the debris map in the accident report, it seems that they could come up with an impact point with some specified degree of probability
147 Peergynt: Ok. I have a question about black boxes. Finding these boxes is usually crucial to determine the set of causes leading an airplane crash. Since someti
148 Pihero: The "This" in question is as follows : "Back to Google News Brazil: Senegal took control of doomed flight 9 hours ago BRASILIA, Brazil (AP) --- Brazi
149 Khobar: Nope - supposedly no in flight breakup. Odd - no crush damage on what we've seen. Hmm...
150 Zeke: Deep stalls are normally associated with aircraft like the HS121 Trident/DC-9/727/Learjets etc that have T-tails, the deep stall is caused/unrecovera
151 WingedMigrator: Of note is the French version of the BEA report that includes day-by-day maps of the debris discovery between 6 June and 18 June, in Appendix 4. Ther
152 VirginFlyer: You may wish to inform the BEA and Mr Arslanian of that: http://www.bea.aero/anglaise/bea/organigramme.htm While you're at it, you may also like to n
153 Giopan1975: Excuse me, where did you find that? How can one comment on any airliner's decision to have 2/3 cockpit crew members of ages 32, 37 on a transatlantic
154 Mandala499: My Offhand comments... Well until this preliminary report, the only thing that can be ruled out was the aircraft being abducted by an alien mothership
155 UALWN: 10 or 11 years ago, I used to read another aviation forum, where there was a frequent contributor who was a 23 year old UA A320 first officer. His co
156 Baroque: Perhaps I was not clear, Comet style investigation not Comet style crash. They had sweet all to go on except from what they could reconstruct. Still,
157 NAV20: Worth recording, Baroque, since I come from a 'de Havilland family,' that it was the company itself that finally identified the problem. Nothing at a
158 Movingtin: They have less than 1% of the A/C recovered, no FDR/CVR Data, Have not had access to the bodies, there should be no "conclusions". They do not have s
159 Slinky09: Does the report contain any section called 'conclusions'? Yes it certainly contains some inferences, such as 'parts showed great compressive forces'
160 NAV20: Same here, Slinky09....... In fact, their only 'conclusions' appear to be negative ones. They reckon that the aeroplane DIDN'T break up in the air, a
161 TUNisia: Well said. It's never a good environment where differing opinions are scorned and publicly shamed for the benefit of a select few. There are hundreds
162 Scbriml: How do you arrive at that figure? I think vertical stabiliser alone would count for significantly more than 1% of the airframe. They've also recovere
163 RFields5421: The way I read the BEA report and the photographs is that they have pieces from the rear, middle and front of the aircraft - all showing near identic
164 Slinky09: And nor did they say Pitot tubes were not a contributor ... so perhaps this is a reverse of in denial on your part (interested to note your 'clearly
166 NAV20: My opinion only, Slinky09. But there have been over 30 such reported incidents in the past year or so involving that particular early-model Thales pi
167 UALWN: How do you define "clearly sub-standard"? Did they meet all the specifications they were required to meet in order to be approved for in-flight use?
168 Movingtin: Did you read my post? because below is ALL of what I said!
169 NAV20: Oh dear, mate. There is evidence that they have, quite recently, reported airspeeds as low as 82 knots when the aeroplane was actually doing about
170 WingedMigrator: The BEA report contains a list of established facts, which reads quite conservatively until the last one on the subject of debris: They do indeed tre
171 UALWN: I see. And do you know exactly how did that happen? And whether it would have happened with any other pitot probe? Do you know if, say, the rate of i
172 NAV20: Yes, in a manner of speaking. The bloody things didn't work properly when they were needed. Probably because the drainage or the heating or the ducti
173 Klwright69: I think the discussion should be about how they are going to locate, and when they are going to locate the black boxes. That will give all the answers
174 Movingtin: The Thales Part number has been identified. Per the Advisories, this part should be replaced by any one of the acceptable replacements, So something
175 Baroque: Correct, but the bit I don't like about that is the sea bed images included on the report maps. They are generalised and we will need to see the sona
176 UALWN: If you don't understand that saying "bloody things didn't work properly" is not specific enough, I'll be very relieve to learn that you do not work i
177 ThrottleHold: I was qualified and flying as an A330 Relief Commander at 27. I have done many flights when the Captain has been in the bunk and myself and the other
178 Zeke: Below Vls in any law, the aircraft should no longer auto trim. They have been certified by the FAA/EASA, do you know of a higher standard ? Air data
179 WILCO737: You won't believe how poor some of the older guys perform. Maybe they have great knowledge and seen a lot, but they actual flying skills are getting
180 Klwright69: Is that a good range? Could they malfunction? With multiple subs searching 24 hours a day, is it possible would no one pick up the signal?
181 Osiris30: Read his post! He is asking if something specific had happened wouldn't the damage pattern be the same. Nice work though, completely missing the poin
182 Khobar: What pieces show damage consistent with a very high vertical acceleration?
183 Mandala499: Typical when there's not enough data, cross out the reasonable possibilities that you can rule out based on what's available. As to substandard pitot
184 Zeke: The range is adequate when you look deepest sea floor level, they are electronic, so yes they can malfunction, but unlikely both the CVR and FDR woul
185 NAV20: Sure, Mandala499 - or maybe just 'there are better-performing ones available now and airlines should lose no time in replacing them.' There's no reas
186 Zeke: Both, that site is a load of technical junk.
187 Mandala499: Zeke, thanks again! But that depends on the data being fed from ADR to the EFCS correct? Sorry I should have been more detailed in the previous questi
188 NAV20: So what did the quoted fault messages actually mean, Zeke?
189 Mandala499: The ACARS messages given put up by Avherald isn't new... Did you read the preliminary report AT ALL??? On: PROBE PITOT 1+2 / 2+3 / 1+3 (9DA) COMPARE:
190 NAV20: No, Mandala, didn't read the whole report - once I found that it came to no conclusions and offered no recommendations. However, seems that the Avhera
191 WingedMigrator: I'm amazed you would ask this question if you bothered to read the BEA report. The galley cart in particular should afford a pretty accurate measure
192 Mandala499: Did they do it urgently? Again, since you appear to have a strong viewpoint on this, what's urgent in your view? 1. ground all the aircraft affected
193 Khobar: I did not read the report. The galley cart? Odd - since the galley has obvious indications of sideways deformation and no indication of vertical defo
194 Astuteman: Presumably this is because the only alternative to actually analysing these cases fully to find out what the true root causes are, to the benefit of
195 NAV20: Yes, urgently - particularly Air France. Installing better pitots that don't clog up so often is an obvious first step. It can't do any harm and migh
196 Mandala499: You did not answer the question. I'll ask again. Would you: 1. ground all the aircraft affected until they're fitted with the new stuff? 2. When ther
197 Pihero: It's quite amazing the amount of uninformed discussion, strong views and accusations against the BEA findings : Etc...etc... So I ask :What are we dis
198 Astuteman: On the contrary, my learned friend. This has now become to be entirely expected... Rgds
199 VirginFlyer: Which specific piece of evidence from AF447 are you basing this on? Also, I wasn't aware that any current Boeing passenger aircraft has a control law
200 NAV20: Not at this stage, Mandal499; on what we know so far. But I'd certainly expedite the change. And, if supply is a problem, I might replace two out of
201 NAV20: Not just AF447, VirginFlyer - if you read the accounts of earlier (non-fatal) incidents you'll find that the pilots concerned reported that they had
202 Slinky09: Really, you seem to have found plenty to argue against so perhaps you're arguing in circles yet again. My mother used to say people argue for argumen
203 Zeke: The 777 has 3 main laws, Normal, Secondary, and Direct, and within those laws it has alternate laws. That is correct. From a previous thread I said,
204 WILCO737: Very well said. Of course I like feedback from the airplane, but it is for sure only an additional thing which I don't rely on. The instruments are t
205 ElbowRoom: You have got to be joking! The BEA have made a decent start with the investigation. The report builds up the evidence on: weather; flightpath; debris
206 Baroque: That was a rather extraordinary exchange. As someone has more or less remarked, as far as I can work it out, the reason I am not writing this in Germ
207 AirlineCritic: Enough said. Personally, I find intelligent criticism of the preliminary report quite interesting and useful. For instance, Mandala499 made some inte
208 NAV20: [quote=Baroque,reply=206]Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth. [/quote) Cheers, Baroque - we can also add 'Ockham'
209 NAV20: You just have to be joking, ElbowRoom. In such circumstances, any intact aeroplane would have 'tended towards equlibrium' - in oher words, the basic
210 Mandala499: OK, we've crossed out one... so, which of the remaining two is it for you is necessary as "immediate"? 2. When there's stock received, put them in wh
211 NAV20: In my brief - and not entirely happy - time in the army, Mandala499, 'immediate' only ever meant one of two things.'Within an hour' if you were trust
212 Osiris30: Pihero; I did read the report and was wondering can you comment on the questions I asked in posts 92? I see that no one really touched on it, and I'm
213 Zeke: I read your question before, but it needs to be more specific, what are you having difficulty understanding ? Which heading are you looking under ...
214 Osiris30: Zeke, thanks for asking, I'm having "issues" (I use the term lightly to mean both potential my understand of and a possibly reason for) with: In disc
215 Abba: Not the least from the usual suspects....
216 Giopan1975: May I ask again? Were did you read that pitot tubes didnt cause or contribute to the accident? Why BEA bother dedicating all of these pages to the tu
217 Mandala499: No doubt that the replacement was sensible, but the urgency and the immediacy of the requirement to change, is harder to gauge without hindsight.
218 BOACVC10: Could we please shift focus of this discussion to the following new issues: a) confusion between air traffic control centers as to who was responsible
219 VirginFlyer: Exactly - we are non-qualified observers looking in with our opinions based on experience which is not 100% pertinent to a transport category aircraf
220 Movingtin: Vertical deceleration is not the question, How the BEA could Determine as an "established Fact" that the plane was intact when it hit the water this
221 Zeke: I do not have enough information to make an assessment either way on that. Yes, that is the nature of transient air data problems, we are dealing wit
222 JONukl: I have read the english version of the preliminary accident report with great interest. It contains many interesting facts and observarions. However,
223 WILCO737: I have the feeling we are circling around and not getting any further. There is so far an interims report which is no final report. And we can do a lo
224 RFields5421: An object which sinks is a lot like an item dropped from an aircraft at altitude. The area where the aircraft went down is up to 20,000 feet deep. Th
225 Spacecadet: Yet the force that affected those trays just *happened* to be traveling in the same direction as the force that affected every other piece of wreckag
226 WingedMigrator: The steps came late, several hours late, but in the grand scheme of things I doubt it made a real difference since it took nearly six days to find th
227 RFields5421: This is a concern. What is obvious from previous comments on other threads in this series and from the ATC information in the BEA report is that many
228 Pihero: 1/- Debris from all areas of the airplane were found, once the drift is resolved, in a small zone 2/- All the wreckage show the same type of damage,
229 Speedbird128: Well it is a difficult area of concern The problem is that HF is notoriously unreliable at the best of times due to atmospheric conditions etc. Throw
230 BOACVC10: In the US, 460 MHz ELTs are now supported exclusively, 121.5 is not monitored. I wonder if anyone knows whether the AF flight had 460 MHz ELT which i
231 2175301: I appreciate you summary of a number of the post that do not add anything new. I have extracted the one true statement from your list that we know. U
232 WingedMigrator: I was referring to side-scan sonar, which can form very detailed acoustic images. You are correct that it would be difficult to detect wreckage again
233 Danvs: Not only that, but the BEA also: - claims that "the flight was not transferred between the Brazilian and Senegalese control centres," (p. 68). Howeve
234 BOACVC10: Hi, 2000 feet is nothing compared to 12000 feet. According to an official website: RMS Titanic, Inc. The Titanic IMHO was not found by searching for
235 NAV20: I think we all have to face the fact that the chances of recovering the recorders are now pretty slim - far below fifty/fifty. So the evidence we have
236 WingedMigrator: There is no need for opinion, humble or otherwise: this is all historical record. The Titanic was found by side-scan sonar methods as part of a syste
238 AirlineCritic: Actually, it is even more complicated. The ACARS system is not a FDR, and the way it constructs its messages potentially loses information. Some mess
239 AirlineCritic: I meant to say that all this could have happened before 0214Z too, and most likely did. I also wonder if the 31 s communication problem between 2 h 1
240 Baroque: Indeed we do, but we may not get them. But even that still does not mean that the mystery cannot be solved. That seems a bit bold even for a gut feel
241 764: I have three questions (not theories, just questions): 1) Assume that there was nobody - at least no conscious individual - present on the flight deck
242 Mandala499: OK do you want real feedback, or "pretend feedback" ? I think 737 is the only Boeing airliner with HYD Assisted controls nowadays... the 767 has an a
243 ComeAndGo: The engines have tons of steel in it. would that work with the magnetic search technique ?
244 Astuteman: I'd just like to thank you for that outstranding post, Mandala499. It was fascinating to hear the differences (and similarities) between the controls
245 NAV20: The path guys are said to have reported no metal splinters either - and all explosions in confined space produce smoke, partly from the explosive its
246 Mandala499: No water in the lungs? Salt water or freshwater? One must be careful about the info leaked. Yes, after salt water has entered the lungs in a drowning
247 Pihero: No. That's not a control transfer. That's a traffic information. Nothing more. And the BEA precisely mentions it in the report. The main problem betw
248 MaxJack: Some has suggested a GPS as a backup system to measure the speed, but that is not much help in flight mode. I am just interested to see the relationsh
249 Kiwiandrew: Thank you for these links Pihero , I went back to thread 18 and read them , very interesting but quite disturbing , I now know possibily a bit more t
250 Scouseflyer: GPS trackers are very accurate in measuring ground speeds - the motoring press use them to meause accelleration of cars down to the 0.01s level. I'd
251 Alhena: Maybe consistent but not indication of. Certainly not: The forensic leaking specifically talked about petechia and pointed out that they can be cause
252 2175301: My apologies for the typo.... I should have typed 12,000 instead of 2000. Oh, and aluminum does create some magnetic effect - just not nearly as much
253 Breiz: Indeed, Titanic was not found with a magnetometer but with side-can-sonars. It took two campaigns of extensive search by US and French research vesse
254 NAV20: Would have helped if you'd explained what 'petechia' means, Alhena. I haven't the faintest idea.......... But it appears indisputable that Airbus a
255 UPSMD11: This has to be one of the most mysterious airliner crashes I have followed. I even have dreams about what it may have been like in the cabin. I hope w
256 Mandala499: Where on Earth did you get that "great difficulty in retaining or regaining control" from???????? Again, where did you get the NOTHING DECISIVE from?
257 Rabenschlag: I have been reading this thread for a while now, and I must say that the NAV20's rhetorics are more than astonishing. Some lines of his thoughts even
258 Alhena: Sorry for that. I thought it was clear from my posts in thread 18 with link to the original article. Petechiae are small red lesions that can have se
259 NAV20: No mate - just stating the facts of 'legal life.' For a very good reason, the findings of 'investigatory boards' are not admissible as evidence in co
260 Sebolino: What is indisputable is your ability to speak without knowing.
261 Pihero: The main difference between us and the lawyers is that we're after the truth. They're after their money as I understand that their defence of the poor
262 Weizenjaeger: I have a follow-up question: Knowing the ground speed and engine thrust, could the airspeed be calculated?
264 GBan: Good advice. You might also never, ever, assume that guys living in our century who are professionals in a certain area have nothing useful to teach
265 ZANL188: Curt Newport used a side scan sonar to identify targets during his expeditions to find Liberty Bell 7, a considerably smaller target than Titanic. Ul
266 SpeedBirdA380: Yes I agree, an outstanding post by Mandala499. I would also like to thank Pihero and Zeke (and a few others) for their outstanding contributions to
267 Slinky09: Hmm, does this imply that you'll only believe the courts when they decide? Perhaps that's why you flog the AA587 story again and again, hoping the co
268 NAV20: Guess that the indicated airspeed would have been irrelevant, Weinzenjaeger - at 35,000 feet, the 'true IAS' is almost 'usually' 50-100 knots over or
269 Baroque: FWIW, the wrecks of Kormoran and HMAS Sydney were found by sidescan sonar in about 2.4 km of water off the WA coast. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/geo/hmas
270 Weizenjaeger: You didn't understand the question, and even if you did, you still guessed at an answer. You're not a mathematician or aeronautical engineer, so why
271 BuyantUkhaa: Just thinking aloud here - since wave propagation (i.e. sound) is affected by the speed of the medium in which it propagates (air), could it be possi
272 Weizenjaeger: Perhaps one could also use the Doppler shift? No distance or timing information needed. Would need to know about current air characteristics, density
273 Mandala499: Keeping it simple... and theoretical... Use the GPS and the inertial units. You can calculate your theoretical speed by: 1. Getting groundspeed from
274 JONukl: There are commercially available wind-speed meters (anemometers) based on sound propagation between two transmitters and two recievers mounted at the
275 Moose135: Going back to when Orville and Wilbur taught me to fly a known pitch and power setting for a given weight should give you a ball-park airspeed, and I
276 Pihero: Yes, easily. The basic navigation problem solving is about three vectors : Heading + True airspeed Track + Ground speed Wind, in direction and veloci
277 Mandala499: This is beginning to sound like Adam Air 574 playing allover again... crazy theories and people preaching whatever they want ignoring the evidence...
278 Pihero: Yes, that's the gist of the "Unreliable Airspeed Indication" procedure. The indicated airspeed is the MOST important parameter At 35,000 ft, the CAS
279 JONukl: I am still worried about the non-existing diversification of air-speed measurements. Triplicate but almost identical systems are always prone to so c
280 Racko: Out of curiosity: When did AA fly the A310?
281 Canoecarrier: I don't doubt this is technically possible but the anemometers you linked to the highest operating range wind speed I saw was around 65 meters per se
282 NBC News1: The BEA interim accident report regarding Air France 447 states that some countries chose to nominate observers to the investigation. Does anyone know
283 Racko: They are given the right to observe to make sure a proper investigation is carried out. As to why they sent observers to this particular investigatio
284 JONukl: Because these units are used to measure normal wind velocities, they usually have a range limted to the highest expected velocity in order to make th
285 ULMFlyer: From Avweb today: Was this mentioned in the BEA press conference? I haven't come across this piece of info anywhere else.
286 2175301: Thanks for the links (although I can't get the first one to work). Yes, side scan sonar is typically good for about 1 mile or so - which is right in
287 DanVS: BEA mentions that SBAO "coordonne" (coordinates) with GOOO, which doesn't mean exactly neither that it transferred neither that it was just a traffic
288 NAV20: Slinky09, as I said, investigation reports are not admissible as evidence in court. In the case of AA587, this is still winding its way through the N
289 Theredbaron: I think that this terrible accident will take a long time to solve, even if there is luck recovering the CVR and FDR, because lets face it, maybe they
290 VirginFlyer: The answer is actually right there: Annex 13 refers to "Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation", commonly known as the Chicago Co
291 Giopan1975: Sometimes, and out of the blue, a small detail is discovered, a little clue comes to light that makes the hardest problem look like a piece of cake.
294 SOBHI51: If i understood you right, you were involved in few fatal accidents and you survived them, then with such a luck i will love to invite you to Las Veg
295 Baroque: More details of the equipment requirements and scan protocols at http://www.pesa.com.au/publications/...esa_news/dec_06/pesanews_8510.html For some s
296 NAV20: Nice ones, guys. I used to work in the construction business - including highrise. All we had to do was keep our tempers while the court went through
297 Pihero: Thanks for this series of posts, Baroque. It makes me hope that the wreck of Flight 447 will be eventually found. I'd be interested in that story, as
298 UALWN: NAV20, what about LOT, Boeing and whoever manufactures the pitot tubes in LOT's 767s? http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41b7477b&opt=0 Do they have a
299 Racko: Don't bother UALWN, NAV20 chooses to ignore all uncomfortable questions, like for example when exactly he "beyond doubt" saw "the ASIs on an AA A310 g
300 Mandala499: Theredbaron & Giopan, Excellent posts by both of you in reminding each of us, why are we here discussing it. Yes, Ambulance Chasers are, a given. As t
301 JONukl: It would be quite interesting if somebody with the right knowledge, and sufficient time, tried to analyze the whole chain of events from sensors to A
302 AverageUser: On the contrary I'd say, the software and hardware of all associated devices are perfectly reproducible in the lab. This I think is the first time so
303 NAV20: One isolated incident is no big deal, UALWN; 30-odd, with a common factor (old-design pitot tubes that were known to have a tendency to clog up') are
304 2175301: Mandala: Thanks for the great summary. Personally, one of the things that has bothered me is that so many people seem to be focused on the "belief" t
Breiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 3 Reply 305, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7150 times:
A lot is said, or more often suggested, about the A330 and its technology. The recent Qantas incidents are used to bring grain to the mill.
Flight Int. magazine recently informed that:
"Qantas Airways' low-cost carrier Jetstar is looking to add more Airbus A330s now that Qantas group has cancelled some 787 orders and delayed others."
Surely if the A330 was suspicious as depicted by some, Qantas would look away from it.
In another article, Flight Int. reports about the findings by Boeing and the National Research Council of Canada on engine failure due to icing in tropical storms:
"...At high level, in the vicinity of thunderstorms, ice crystals are believed to form in smaller sizes than is normally the case, making them less detectable to aircraft equipment such as weather radar, and changing their behaviour when they are ingested into an engine."...
..."This issue is critical because more high-level, long-range flights than ever are crossing oceanic areas via the tropics where high-altitude storm activity is normal, so the engine icing risk is increased, and this challenges the premises on which extended twin-engine operations rules are based."
Pihero and Mandala499, any bearing on the AF447 case?
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 10617 posts, RR: 51 Reply 306, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7106 times:
Quoting Pihero (Reply 297): It makes me hope that the wreck of Flight 447 will be eventually found.
Certainly do not give up hope of that. It may take a while if the terrain is difficult, but the wreckage CAN be found.
In a way the depth and the terrain partly compensate. The sidescan depends on relief and the sea floor relief can make it difficult to distinguish. If the swath is restricted to say 500 m, acoustic shadows from relief should not be a major problem. It will be interesting to find what depth they tow the gear and the speed and swath width that is used. It will be starting quite soon I suspect. Pity the pingers did not work so far. Looks as if that is an area where more work needs to be done to ensure easier recovery.
Indeed the engines. Even with icing of pitots and who knows what else, it seems to be difficult for those who actually know to work out why the plane would come down after the event. If the engines suffered a problem at an intensity of icing not previously seen that would certainly explain the plane ceasing to remain aloft??????
AverageUser From Finland, joined Oct 2007, 1506 posts, RR: 7 Reply 307, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7074 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 303):
Don't forget that the exact same pitot tube problem caused an SB and AD recommending full replacement in the A320 in 2006?
If you happen to refer to this document , it's dated 2003, and quoted below. I don't know what "the exact same problem" means, has someone determined something somewhere, in a court of law perchance?
APPLICABILITY:
AIRBUS A319, A320 and A321 aircraft, all certified models, all serial numbers fitted with THALES
AVIONICS Pitot probes P/N C16195AA with a serial number (S/N) lower than 4760.
Note: THALES AVIONICS was previously known as "SEXTANT" or "SEXTANT AVIONIQUE".
2. REASONS:
An operator reported airspeed discrepancy events on A320 aircraft further to Pitot probe obstruction.
The investigations performed by the supplier THALES AVIONICS revealed that the defect of the Pitot
probes was due to a manufacturing defect at the drain holes.
This manufacturing defect contributes to the accumulation of external pollution which, combined with
severe weather conditions, might obstruct the air intake of the Pitot probes, leading to bad total
pressure Pt detection and therefore erroneous CAS/MACH parameters delivered by the ADR.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 7157 posts, RR: 42 Reply 308, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7056 times:
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 310): If you happen to refer to this document , it's dated 2002,
No, AverageUser, Airbus' SB was issued about March 2006. Don't know exactly when the AD (which referred mainly to frequent inspections to make sure the tubes weren't blocked again) came out.
[Edited 2009-07-07 05:36:52]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Giopan1975 From Greece, joined Jun 2009, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 309, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7024 times:
There is a lot being written about allocating responsibilities which is a trap one can fall quite easily into, myself included. First of all and at this stage of the investigation (official one and Anet one) there are still so many scenarios at play (even the terrorism scenario has not been discarded yet). Therefore, it is very premature to talk about responsibilities.
Secondly, it is quite unfair to blame Airbus, AF or crew on anything at this stage not only because there is absolutely no evidence to be based upon, but also because one should respect the level of safety and reliability modern commercial aviation has achieved during the years, taking accident rate close to zero (regarding developed countries of the world).
Of course, there are past events that make you think. Like accidents attributed to pilots' performance being unthinkably careless and poor. Like lo-co airliners cutting down on obligatory maintainance. Like manufacturers delivering planes with known defects and black boxes deliberately being changed with new ones at crash sites. Like non-conclusive investigations even after black boxes were found.
Nevertheless, AF has been a carrier of the developed world with a quite good safety record before 1st June. A330 has been a monster of safety and reliability and Airbus FBW approach has served the industry with millions of uneventful flight hours. That is why air travel on Airbuses has not suddelny become unsafe after AF447.
AverageUser From Finland, joined Oct 2007, 1506 posts, RR: 7 Reply 310, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7031 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 311): Don't know exactly when the AD (which referred mainly to frequent inspections to make sure the tubes weren't blocked again) came out.
It would perhaps serve the public if you could substantiate your claim, I did a seach at http://ad.easa.eu.int/ad against "thales" and only found the 2003 AD above.
JONukl From Sweden, joined Jun 2009, 45 posts, RR: 0 Reply 311, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7034 times:
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 302): On the contrary I'd say, the software and hardware of all associated devices are perfectly reproducible in the lab. This I think is the first time software engineering issues (but perhaps with some man-machine interface issues) are strongly coming into consideration in an accident investigation. What will emerge out of this will be very interesting in any case.
I don't mean that the things are not reproducible in the lab - I am sure they are to a great extent. However, units are changed and software is changed (usually upgraded), and often during overhauls. The interim report does not mention anything about these things, which is astonishing to me. I have been thinking about the typical bath-tub shape of incident frequency after a revision or major overhaul. The pitot tubes could perhaps only be an initiating event in a chain of something that normally (with everything behaving as planned) should have had no serious outcome.
UALWN From Spain, joined Jun 2009, 180 posts, RR: 0 Reply 312, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7021 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 303): One isolated incident is no big deal, UALWN; 30-odd, with a common factor (old-design pitot tubes that were known to have a tendency to clog up') are arguably a very different kettle of fish....
One isolated incident? How do you know? The LOT incident only made the news because of AF447. How many other incidents like that happened before AF447's crash made them newsworthy? Or do you really believe that the only "unreliable airspeed" incident ever involving a Boeing airplane happened, by chance, a couple of weeks after AF447?
Just like we have only learned about the JJ and NW incidents because of AF447.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 7157 posts, RR: 42 Reply 313, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6986 times:
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 313): It would perhaps serve the public if you could substantiate your claim
I would have done if I'd been able to find a link, AverageUser. But here's the text of both (borrowed from another chat site):-
"EASA AD F-2002-586R01 requires all Thales Avionics pitot probes P/N C16195AA with S/N lower than 4760 to be inspected to detect the presence of burr that may block the drain holes and as a consequence obstruct the air intake of the probe. After S/N 4761, Thales Avionics has performed the cleaning of the drain hole during the manufacturing process.
This AD refers Airbus SB A320-34-1263 and Thales Avionics VSB C16195A-34-002.
•SB A320-34-1354 (first published in March 2006) proposes to change Thales Avionics pitot probes P/N C16195AA by pitot probes P/N C16195BA .
QUOTE
•REASON/DESCRIPTION/OPERATIONAL CONSEQUENCES Operators have reported airspeed discrepancies while flying under heavy precipitations or in freezing weather conditions. In such an icy and turbulent atmosphere, the aircraft air data parameters may be severely degraded, even though the probe heaters work properly. It appears that the characteristics of such an environment could exceed the weather specifications for which the pitot probes are currently certified. This Service Bulletin replaces the existing pitot probes (FINs 9DA1, 9DA2 and 9DA3) by new probes which are mechanically and electrically interchangeable. Accomplishment of Service Bulletin will improve the resistance against water ingress under severe conditions resulting in improved airspeed behavior. In addition, this new pitot probe introduces a new external protection layer to prevent corrosion.
UNQUOTE
•SB A330-34-3071 (first published in September 2007) proposes to change Thales Avionics pitot probes P/N C16195AA by pitot probes P/N C16195BA.
QUOTE
•REASON/DESCRIPTION/OPERATIONAL CONSEQUENCES A320 aircraft family operators have reported airspeed discrepancies while flying under heavy precipitations. A new Pitot probe has been designed to improve A320 aircraft airspeed behavior with these specific weather conditions. A few similar discrepancies had also been reported by A330/A340 aircraft operators and AIRBUS now proposes this Pitot probes improvement for Long Range (LR) aircraft. This Service Bulletin proposes the replacement of the three Pitot probes PN C16195AA (FINs 9DA1, 9DA2 and 9DA3) by new probes PN C16195BA. Accomplishment of this Service Bulletin will improve the resistance against water ingress under severe conditions resulting in improved airspeed behavior. In addition, this new Pitot probe introduces a new external protection layer to prevent corrosion.
UNQUOTE"
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
AverageUser From Finland, joined Oct 2007, 1506 posts, RR: 7 Reply 314, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6915 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 316):
I would have done if I'd been able to find a link, AverageUser. But here's the text of both (borrowed from another chat site):-
Thanks NAV, but I wonder why I'm unable to locate the original AD document -- but here's an Airbus Service Information Letter that appears to contain the same information:
Cases of airspeed discrepancies have been reported from the field. These airspeed discrepancies can be caused by a Pitot probe perturbation under marginal weather conditions obstruction by external particles. This phenomenon can affect all Airbus programs even if the A320 family aircraft equipped with Thales Pitot probe PN C16195AA remains the most impacted. (my emph.)
Don't forget that the exact same pitot tube problem caused an SB and AD recommending full replacement in the A320 in 2006? (NAV20)
If you happen to refer to this document , it's dated 2003, and quoted below. I don't know what "the exact same problem" means, has someone determined something somewhere, in a court of law perchance? (AverageUser)
The document AverageUser refers to in his reply has this number: F-2002-586R1
Then, the document NAV20 claims to be from 2006:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 316):
I would have done if I'd been able to find a link, AverageUser. But here's the text of both (borrowed from another chat site):-
"EASA AD F-2002-586R01 requires all Thales Avionics pitot probes P/N C16195AA with S/N lower than 4760 to be inspected to detect the presence of burr that may block the drain holes and as a consequence obstruct the air intake of the probe. After S/N 4761, Thales Avionics has performed the cleaning of the drain hole during the manufacturing process.
It certainly looks to me that this is in fact the same AD, issued in 2003?
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 7157 posts, RR: 42 Reply 316, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6782 times:
Quoting Sniffmom (Reply 318): It certainly looks to me that this is in fact the same AD, issued in 2003?
With respect, Sniffmom, no, don't think so. The para. you quote appears to be the 'preamble' - the next one goes on to say, "This AD refers Airbus SB A320-34-1263 and Thales Avionics VSB C16195A-34-002. SB A320-34-1354 (first published in March 2006) proposes to change Thales Avionics pitot probes P/N C16195AA by pitot probes P/N C16195BA.
Anyway, I hope that it shows that, for some reason, Airbus appears to have acted less decisively on problems with A330s/A340s than they did with the earlier (similar) problems on the A320? And EASA doesn't appear to have acted at all?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
RFields5421 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 2439 posts, RR: 1 Reply 317, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6673 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 303): Don't forget that the NTSB is investigating two similar occurrences on A330s in the last few weeks; TAM and Northwest
The NTSB is only investigating those incidents at the request of BEA. The NTSB found no reason to start an independent investigation of A330 loss of airspeed information according to their press releases.
BEA has also requested air safety organizations in many other countries to watch for and investigate the incident details and specifics of the equipment, A330 or any other aircraft.
Sniffmom From Norway, joined Feb 2009, 64 posts, RR: 0 Reply 318, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6651 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 320):
With respect, Sniffmom, no, don't think so. The para. you quote appears to be the 'preamble' - the next one goes on to say, "This AD refers Airbus SB A320-34-1263 and Thales Avionics VSB C16195A-34-002. SB A320-34-1354 (first published in March 2006) proposes to change Thales Avionics pitot probes P/N C16195AA by pitot probes P/N C16195BA.
"This AD refers Airbus SB A320-34-1263 and Thales Avionics VSB C16195A-34-002". This refers to the 2003 AD AverageUser linked to.
"SB A320-34-1354 (first published in March 2006) proposes to change Thales Avionics pitot probes P/N C16195AA by pitot probes P/N C16195BA". This is a different SB. But if there is a related AD issued the same year, which you claim, AverageUser can't find it and you have no link to it or any number for it?
RFields5421 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 2439 posts, RR: 1 Reply 319, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6610 times:
Quoting JONukl (Reply 301): The aircraft that crashed had apparently undergone a major overhaul 16 april 2009. Was any equipment involved in the FBW operation or its software modified, changed or replaced at that time?
Not quite correct - it was not "a major overhaul" - it was an "A" check, which according to the BEA report occurs about every two months on these aircraft at Air France - every 800 flight hours.
The aircraft underwent the same A Check on 27 Dec, 21 Feb and 16 Apr.
The check does not involve removing any structural parts, only visual inspections of viewable areas, checking various oil and hydraulic fluid levels, greasing and lubrication of parts, and some operational tests.
It is the equilavent of the 3,000 mile oil change and check on your automobile - though of course more extensive due to the size and complexity of the aircraft.
I would be surprised if such a check is not completed at the gate during an overnight stop in a few hours.
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4702 posts, RR: 65 Reply 321, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6569 times:
I have said this before, and looks like I will have to repeat myself.
The main reason in my view why we know more about air data indication problems on FBW airbus aircraft over any other type is the advanced fault detection and cross referencing that the aircraft is performing many many times a second.
This is nothing new, Airbus are know for far more detailed fault reporting than Boeings are, that does not mean the faults are not occurring on Boeings, in my view it means the faults are not being detected and recorded.
To give another example, in our fleet of A330/A340/777/744 aircraft, the A330/A340 have far more reports of smoke alarms going off in lavatories, few if any, instances of smokers being caught by cabin crew when leaving the lavatory and an alarm being generated. On our Boeing fleets, we have the opposite, many instances of people only being caught by cabin crew or fellow passengers, and less by the actual smoke alarm systems.
It would be reasonable to assume a fairly even passenger demographic across the fleets/network, so the only reasonable conclusion we have been able to draw is that on the Boeing fleet more smoking is going on that what is being detected. An internal cabin fire is one of most extreme emergencies that anyone could have on a passenger aircraft.
What does the airline do to solve this problem ?
We know of many Boeing (inc "McD") aircraft that have crashed directly because of air data problems, when you go back and read those accident reports it is clear that in most cases the aircraft never detected a fault in the air data systems.
It was left up to the humans monitoring those system to detect errors, and in many cases it was not detected at all, or the recognition made late. I also know of instances in our 747/777 fleets where aircraft have had air data problems, and the aircraft was unable to detect those problems.
No airbus aircraft has ever crashed, and later found to have had an undetected problem with its air data systems, in fact I know of no accident report which lists that as a causal fact on an airbus. The aircraft monitors the air data systems far more accurately than any human can, but it still up to the human to turn off a faulty system once detected. At least the aircraft has the ability to monitor, cross check, and alert the crew of potential problems.
It is by no accident that Thales (and Goodyear/Rosemount earlier) have made improvements/development to their air data systems for the Airbus in extreme conditions. It is because of the fault detection capabilities of the aircraft they have been able to identify under what conditions (that far exceed the minimum certification requirements) failure have happened.
Fact is all Airbus aircraft and their pitot tubes are certified by the EASA and the FAA for flight into known icing conditions and even heavy rain, but NO Airbus (or Boeing for that matter) is designed or certified for flight into severe icing conditions.
I believe, even with the upgraded Thales pitot tubes on the AF fleet, it will not remove air data detection faults all together, it will just reduce the occurrence rate. In my view, no pitot/static/TAT/AoA probe will ever be 100% reliable all the time.
"Fate is the hunter" by Ernest K. Gann
Quoting JONukl (Reply 222): However, I am surprised by the total lack of information on some potentially very important things, i.e. computer models and makes, software revisions, cabling, etc. Contrasting to this, the report contains detailed information about the airframe, the engines, the pitot tubes, and the crew.
Details about the actual hardware, serial numbers, software levels, last maintenance actions, maintenance history are all know, details of which will not make it into an accident report unless it is a causal factor.
Quoting JONukl (Reply 284): With modern digital hardware, laser diodes, and fast computers I see no reason why these velocity meters could not operate at typical aircraft speeds. However, I have not seen any commersial versions based on light (a big overkill for normal wind-speeds).
What you are suggesting already exists, it is called an optical air data system, the US Army and Navy have them installed on some of their helicopters for landing in a brown out (helicopter rotor wash induced sand/dust storms).
Quoting Weizenjaeger (Reply 270): For everybody else, I'm curious to know if a fairly accurate airspeed estimate can be computed for use as an over-check. If altitude, heading, and ground speed are known from GPS, the aircraft's drag can be computed (based on trim, weight, air density, etc), and the engine's thrust is known, is that not enough information for a computer to calculate airspeed, indicated or otherwise?
No. GPS does not know altitude, it knows GPS altitude which is based upon a mathematical model of the earths surface, it does not correspond to actual altitude. Air density cannot be measured that easy, it can be measured directly with an optical air data system. What GPS is used on the Airbus is for cross referencing the GPS ground speed to the ADR/IR groundspeed.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
AutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1046 posts, RR: 9 Reply 322, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6566 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 277): Quoting (Reply 185):'there are better-performing ones available now and airlines should lose no time in replacing them.'
Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 257): I have been reading this thread for a while now, and I must say that the NAV20's rhetorics are more than astonishing.
Indeed.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 277): Decompression.
QuotingMandala449So, still place guilt on Thales, Airbus and Air France, whilst saying the accident is caused by something els
For me it looks this thread were the perfect playground for NAV20 to find a way to discredit and prove how unsafe Airbus planes are, we all know his dislike for Airbus.
This is very sad, as this topic should be discussed with respect and tactfully out of reverence to the people which died in this tragedy. So please for once don't let your anti a or b biases find a way into this thread.
NAV20 you have been proved wrong countless, more billion of times, can you please give it a rest?
Instead i would suggest to read carefully what the real experts and pilots like (Zeke,Pihero and Mandala499, Baroque etc..) post, before jumping into wild conclusions and making this thread unnecessary long.
(BTW, thank you all for your great contribution its greatly appreciated)
VirginFlyer From Australia, joined Sep 2000, 4239 posts, RR: 54 Reply 323, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6515 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 324): In nay case, all I said was that those investigations might give us more facts? For a start, they'll have intact FDRs and CVRs to analyse?
Is that somehow a 'bad thing'?
Only in that if they show that there is no intrinsic disaster hiding in the pitot/static system waiting to smite A330s the world over, you'll have to come up with some other theory to assail us relentlessly with...
V/F
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large. Then make the dream real. - Donald Douglas Snr
JONukl From Sweden, joined Jun 2009, 45 posts, RR: 0 Reply 324, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6451 times:
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 323): Not quite correct - it was not "a major overhaul" - it was an "A" check,
Sorry. Thank's for the correction. I misread obviously the text in the report.
However, nobody has still explained why no details (except about pitot tubes) of the FBW-system is in the BEA report. Does this imply that the investigators disregard any possibilities that the FBW-hardware or software misbehaved in some unforseen way - or is it a sign of this being the first (or one of the first) investigation of an accident of its kind?
I have been following the explanation of the ACARS messages posted by Phiero, Mandala and others with great interest.
In case of possible nuclear accidents we normally make rather complete fault-trees. These are then used over and over again to try to remove the risk dominating events. Is that procedure also used in aircraft accidents?
RFields5421 From United States, joined Jul 2007, 2439 posts, RR: 1 Reply 325, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6035 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 324): No, RFields - they're investigating in their own right, because one of the flights originated in the USA, and the other was a US airline.
Sorry - your opinion contradicts the NTSB statements as to why they are investigating.
These were incidents which the NTSB has not investigated in the past, and would not investigate under normal circumstances.
The NTSB is very clear in their press releases - the only reason they are checking into these incidents is at the request of BEA. They are also checking all other aircraft with reported fautly airspeed data, not just Airbus.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 324): all I said was that those investigations might give us more facts?
That is not what you said. You have said many times on these threads that the very fact of an NTSB investigations is PROOF of a serious issue with probes.
You have implied often on these threads that the NTSB investigation is proof a lack of trust of BEA by the US government and airlines.
AverageUser From Finland, joined Oct 2007, 1506 posts, RR: 7 Reply 326, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5950 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 320):
Anyway, I hope that it shows that, for some reason, Airbus appears to have acted less decisively on problems with A330s/A340s than they did with the earlier (similar) problems on the A320?
I think we should hold on a moment and look at the paperwork thoroughly -- I mean if it is going to be another visit in a court of law by yourself, it could well be justified.
You said:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 303): Don't forget that the exact same pitot tube problem caused an SB and AD recommending full replacement in the A320 in 2006?
As we discussed previously, my research says there's no AD from that year, but from 2003 considering manufacturing defects -- and for the life of me, I can't find SB A320-34-1354 ("first published in March 2006") anywhere as an original document either.
I wonder what the convention is, would a lower issue number mean an earlier date? I am able to catch the other SB (A320–34–1263) from the huge British AD file http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP474OCTOBER04.PDF (p. 338) and it is associated with the year 2004. The same with the same year with the U.S. ( http://regulations.vlex.com/vid/airw...thiness-directives-airbus-22712478 ) If a lower number means an earlier date, the SB can't be from 2006?
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