TheAirlineBlog From United States, joined Jun 2009, 5 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9484 times:
Many people have been wondering if JetAmerica is actually going to fly. They are supposed to have their first flight on July 13th, but I have still not seen a real photo of their aircraft and now they have "a server glitch" (http://www.theairlineblog.com/?p=1231) and no one can book any flights.
Jaunted talked to JetAmerica and when asked if they will still be flying on the 13th they said, "As far as I know, yeah" which doesn't boost confidence.
Anyone have any more information on the status of this? Anyone seen a real picture of a JetAmerica aircraft? Anyone buy a ticket?
1 Tommyy: As far as I heard they are still on track, their website is operational and they will use Miami Air aircraft
2 DescendVia: If they do "make it" then will then get their own planes down the road, for now its "Jet America operated by Miami Air."
3 Ouboy79: The business plan is for them to migrate to their own certificate and aircraft in about 18-24 months should finances permit. The first month of fligh
4 MSYtristar: I'm not sure how they believe that they will fill a fairly high capacity 737-800. I'm sure Miami Air is giving them good terms but I don't see for the
5 TheAirlineBlog: Even if they are going to fly, there seems to be so much oddness and unprofessionalism surrounding them, I just don't see this happening. And if it do
6 Ouboy79: Pretty much. I like the markets they picked but would have done more leisure traffic first to build the brand. That isn't to take anything away from
7 Ouboy79: Reporting this on FlyTOL.com right now... They are unable to secure gate access at EWR and the airport is unwilling to work with them. Read into what
8 Pgtravel: Yep, emails just went out to all customers explaining just that.
9 QuestAir: Interesting quotes from their VP of Operations from http://theairlineblog.blogspot.com/2...-delays-launch-blames-newark.html: "The delay is not as unu
10 JoseKMLB: Yeah down here in MLB we are hearing maybe another month delay due to gate spaces at EWR. Like I said down here dont trust anything until you see it c
11 PlateMan: USA Today confirms that they are delaying until mid-August http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/blog.aspx
12 Af773atmsp: Is TOL-MSP still starting around August or is that also delayed? It will be nice to see some more color variety at MSP however I'm sure in a few month
13 NWAdeicer: From the lansing state journal: http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20090702/NEWS03/307020029
14 JA: They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
15 AirframeAS: Given the fact that these folks are the ones that brought-up and killed SkyBus..... I wouldn't be surrpised if they never made it in the air at all. I
16 Flyinryan99: Is EWR slot controlled? I can't remember. If it is by the DOT, isn't there a stipulation in the slots that it is open to new entrants to allow for com
17 Ouboy79: Yeah I'm aware of that. I should have read my statement before submitting. What I was actually think is that they should have EWR down to just 3-4 we
18 Luv2cattlecall: Isn't that the same scheme Morris tried to pull before Alaska had the regulators pull out the BS flag?
19 Silentbob: Given the condition of the industry they shouldn't be giving anyone a new certificate right now.
20 Crosswinds21: If I may ask, what does this mean?
21 Joelfreak: Come on, you CANNOT tell me they can't get slot space at ISP. No one may BUY flights to TOL from ISP, but there are slots that are there for the taki
22 AirframeAS: I didn't say that. You gotta be careful who you select quotes from.
23 Joelfreak: Sorry about that. I didn't mean to address it to you as much as to the populous in general.
24 Ouboy79: This is more along the lines of what operations like Direct Air are doing right now out of PGD and MYR. http://www.visitdirectair.com/ According to:
25 JA: LOL...because their connecting passengers won't tolerate it, right? There is no physical need for them to go into JFK, LGA, or EWR. None. ISP has a r
26 Toltommy: The problem is that they need the guaranteed profit the TOL-EWR flight is going to create. They can tap the SCASD grant until it's gone, and use it t
27 Luv2cattlecall: As unviable as JetAmerica seems to be... why should the state of the industry have anything to do with someone getting a certificate? That's the type
28 JoseKMLB: The JA tickect counter here in MLB saying service to start mid aug. Is CO holding gate spaces you think?
30 TravelExec: Giving newcomers the chance to do things right does not necessarily mean that they will grasp that chance and actually do things right... The newcome
31 Toltommy: I'm 50/50. They've got to have a chance, I agree. And If they meet the certification requirements, the operating certificate MUST be issued, regardle
32 Ouboy79: This may open a can of worms to require all airlines to sell their product at a level that will cover the costs for that seat. However, I am with you
33 Luv2cattlecall: There are MANY industries where newcomers use loss-leaders to break into the marketplace... The whole thing with variable pricing and yield managment
34 AirframeAS: I don't consider these people as 'newcomers' at all.
35 FATFlyer: Mike Boyd, in characteristic style, discusses JetAmerica today. An interesting quote: "Running the numbers provided in the JetAmerica press release, a
36 Toltommy: Let's split the baby and say its 57 people per flight. Still well under 1/2 full on average. Using the available fares as a gauge, I'd say the Florida
37 JA: They could have just used ERJs. Why would they do that to themselves? There is only so much demand that can be stimulated. They are going to screw it
38 Enilria: Airlines never quote passengers in roundtrips. Show that to me in any traffic press release. This whole thing is bizarre. They are just chasing subsi
39 JoseKMLB: News Press Release Melbourne, Florida–July 2, 2009–JetAmerica, the nation’s newest low fare indirect air carrier service that offers non-stop se
40 JA: This should be a lesson to ALL airports with grants, especially some of you that are ignoring nobodies until the last minute. You want to see "aviatio
41 BMI727: JA, I think that you are basically right that JetAmerica has gone about this all wrong. The entire idea was totally unrealistic at those prices. That
42 JA: Relatively speaking, they are. The seat cost won't be JetAmerica's $71, it would be more like $80-85. That's a big number until you break it down. Am
43 BMI727: CASM doesn't mean crap if the plane isn't full, which is where JetAmerica went off track. Your math seems sound, and your philosophy on RJs is a lot
44 JA: Exactly. I hope they take the time to look hard at their network. It is their last shot. The first snafu cost them almost 14,000 bookings (20,000 vs
45 SkyguyB727: This is just another example of an airline that couldn't come up with its own identity. The original JetAmerica (with no space between the words) was
46 Ouboy79: Honestly, outside of this site and the airline nerds of the world...no one remembers Jet America for the most part - especially in the East. On FlyTO
47 JA: This is actually a fairly simple job: TOL-ISP 2x ER4 LAN-BWI 1x ER4 SBN-BWI 2x ER4 MLB-BWI 1x ER4 With the impending fare war at BWI, there would be p
48 Ouboy79: I would imagine if you wanted SCASD funding, ISP would be out. Also, an impending fare war in BWI - why would you go into the bear's cage with high c
49 KcrwFlyer: You cant post something like this without explaining how routes like TOL-ISP make sense. So go for it.
50 JA: ISP is a New York metro satellite airport. It has shuttle bus service to a rail line that operates directly to Manhattan. It counts. JetAmerica isn't
51 BMI727: Isn't this kind of what SkyBus tried to do? The average a*netter could do it, but most pax are lazy. They want to log on, type in their destination a
52 JA: No. Skybus did not want to have to yield manage across several routes. By managing each route individually, you make your life much easier. What I wo
53 Ouboy79: If it meets the terms of the grant set by the DOT, okay then. The best example I can think of right away is Chicago Express back in the early 90s. Th
54 JA: Chicago Express also did reasonably well until ATA got into trouble. Any passenger scheduling a less than 1 hour connection is taking a big risk anyw
55 FlyPNS1: Not when they can simply take a short drive to DTW and avoid all that hassle you are describing and still get a low-fare. And what happens when one o
56 JA: Is driving not a hassle? It can be, particularly if it is an hour or more after all of the flying that may have been done. Customers don't want JFK,
57 Toltommy: This sounds very similar to what Ryanair has done in Europe. WN dominates ISP, but they don't seem interested in secondary airports anymore. There's
58 JA: The LIRR already markets direct service from ISP to Penn Station for $18 each way and it includes the shuttle bus. http://www.mta.info/lirr/getaways/
59 FlyPNS1: Yes and for most people JFK, LGA and EWR are much closer. Despite all of ISP's supposed convenience and the millions of people nearby, only WN makes
60 JA: Most consumers want direct flights. Most consumers prefer free food on flights. Money talks...loudly. Consumers will check in twice to save money. I
61 Ouboy79: I was referring to them more so when they were flying junkstreams, not as ATA Connection. Well which one are you using now? Before you stated the ERJ
62 JetBlueGuy2006: LAN-DTW is a good hour and a half I still think LAN is underserved, they just need to get the right amount of service, because I do think people will
63 Jetlanta: The problem is that your argument is economically unsound. There is no way that two separate carriers can (or will) provide air service at a cost tha
64 Ouboy79: OMG you drive slow. :-P LOL Ya I was off a bit on that time there. :-X
65 Flyinryan99: I hate it. I just did it today and it's 50 minutes one way. I had to book DTW-LGA because my boss lives 15 minutes away. But think of it this way. If
66 JA: Heh. Let's take GLH (a potential SCASD market). The route is GLH-ATL once daily. Fare matrices based on a sample run 4/14/2009 for a travel date of 5
67 JA: Hmmm...that's interesting. You mean there are other places that exist besides Manhattan? Heresy! Perhaps you can explain to certain airlines that you
68 Jetlanta: Let's take your back-dated example at face value. Fine. (Which I could probably find hundreds of markets that say the opposite.) One big problem: In
69 Jetlanta: It's not radical at all. That's how all airlines USED to operate. The problem is that the pro-ration settlements required by the major don't leave en
70 BMI727: So in the old days, the regionals would pay the majors a portion of the fare for each pax the major connected to them? How many pax actually connect
71 Jetlanta: No, the majors gave the regionals a portion of the collected fare. The majors sold the tickets purchased under their code. Next to zero. In fact, pro
72 BMI727: And I guess eventually they just started buying the whole plane and flying it under their brand. I just looked at the website, and if you really want
73 JA: Yes, there is. Part 380s have higher costs, but can be run with zero debt if structured properly. We have a factoring line of credit to protect any S
74 FlyASAGuy2005: Where I see wide connections A LOT is on government fares. Why? I have no clue; but they usually average 2 hrs if not more. Random tickets off say De
75 JA: When you do your random sample, see where they connect. For example, the CVG bank provides 35-75 minute connections. CVG flights generally leave on t
76 KcrwFlyer: You have to get off this idea, its not making sense. Taking a taxi or bus or any form of public transport to the airport is not nearly the same thing
77 Sunking737: JA owns a bus service. That explains his answers. Its on his profile.
78 JA: It does, actually. I am used to going across multiple modes with little assistance. What I am proposing is something that many people do every day. N
79 JA: http://www.jaunted.com/story/2009/7/...e+Who+Still+Want+to+Fly+JetAmerica http://www.jaunted.com/story/2009/7/...Rages%3A+JetAmerica+Versus+The+FAA Ja
80 JA: http://www.airportbusiness.com/onlin...p?siteSection=1&id=29367&pageNum=1 Miami Air warns JetAmerica not to sell EWR tickets without slots.
81 FlyASAGuy2005: This is getting uglier by the day...
FlyPNS1 From United States, joined Nov 1999, 3781 posts, RR: 26 Reply 82, posted (4 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2271 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 78): They also are used to having food on the plane and not paying extra for bags.
Airlines haven't offered any signficant free meals in domestic coach for many years and many of the LCC's never have. People are pretty used to not getting food.
And while paying for bags is relatively new, it's a built in part of the check-in process. You don't have to go to a secondary vendor to check your bags.
Quoting JA (Reply 78): Are Europeans more advanced than Americans?
In terms of transportation, absolutely yes.
Quoting JA (Reply 78): These were fundamental changes to the airline business model.
But none of these changes were as fundamentally inconvenient as making people make their own connections and recheck bags and security.
Take a look at the thread about Great Lakes feeding into STL, but with no AA codeshare. The passenger numbers have completely collapsed and keep in mind there are plenty of LCC flights to connect to at STL. And Great Lakes is using dirt cheap props, not high CASM RJ's.
Quoting JA (Reply 78): A fair amount of the business travelers here on a.net constantly talk about how light they travel.
But a once a day flight from TOL to ISP isn't going to attract business travelers. It will be leisure travelers who are far more likely to check luggage.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 83, posted (4 months 6 days ago) and read 2208 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 82): Take a look at the thread about Great Lakes feeding into STL, but with no AA codeshare. The passenger numbers have completely collapsed and keep in mind there are plenty of LCC flights to connect to at STL. And Great Lakes is using dirt cheap props, not high CASM RJ's.
People in those cities have complained about ZK's reliability. If you think this has anything to do with the codeshare, I have a bridge to sell you. ZK is operating fewer frequencies than planned and they are alleged to have "higher" cancellations than normal. ZK stimulated a lot of traffic at Merced and Visalia and took them to ONT with no codeshare.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 82): And Great Lakes is using dirt cheap props, not high CASM RJ's.
On a per seat basis, 50 seat jets are a little cheaper to operate (around 7-10%) than 19 seaters.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 82): But a once a day flight from TOL to ISP isn't going to attract business travelers. It will be leisure travelers who are far more likely to check luggage.
Toltommy From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2587 posts, RR: 5 Reply 84, posted (4 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2080 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 58): Why does everyone except JetAmerica know this?
They don't have to worry about the size of the plane when your losses are being subsidized by SCASD grants and subsidies from airports desperate for service. Marketing consultants have told them that there are a lot of people wanting to fly TOL-EWR. Hopefully the consultants will be held accountable.
Quoting JA (Reply 60):
I've never seen a WN ad in NYC. It would not be hard to grow ISP at all if they wanted to. There are a lot of air travelers in their catchment area.
Agreed. But they've changed the business model. The focus is on big airports now, not secondary ones. I won't be surprised to see them "redeploy assets" by pulling out of some of the marginal secondary airports.
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 61):
Well you have DTW...which is an hour or less drive from TOL or LAN.
Unfortunately, neither airport has been able to capitalize on the convenience factor. It takes a lot more time to use DTW vs either other airport. The average traveller needs to leave TOL at Noon for a 3pm departure. The amount of time you need to allow for parking, checkin, security, and walking to the gate is far greater.
Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 65): I had to book DTW-LGA because my boss lives 15 minutes away.
Funny, thats not the reason you gave me. Thought it was all about price. You couldn't get in and out in one day?
"The reason is because we are sold out of $9 fares in all but the Toledo, Ohio market for all future flights through September 2009. However, there are still plenty of one way seats available at fares starting as low as $19 one way," said JetAmerica spokesperson Bryan Glazer.
They couldn't even sell out on the $9 fares from TOL? That means they couldn't even get 9 people to book on the flights. When will those who claimed that TOL-EWR was an untapped gold mine be held accountable? They not only wasted the SCASD grant, but how much other taxpayer money?
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2879 posts, RR: 31 Reply 85, posted (4 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2061 times:
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 84): When will those who claimed that TOL-EWR was an untapped gold mine be held accountable? They not only wasted the SCASD grant, but how much other taxpayer money?
Probably about the time the contract with Sixel is ended...as long as they don't do any rehiring.
Flyinryan99 From United States, joined Feb 2001, 1454 posts, RR: 14 Reply 86, posted (4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1959 times:
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 84): Funny, thats not the reason you gave me. Thought it was all about price. You couldn't get in and out in one day?
I couldn't justify $300 more when my boss was going also, would look bad. He was flying out of DTW no matter what, so you decide what was the better choice. Could've gone out and back in the same day but it would've been a long day. Needed to be there so it was better to go out the night before especially out of DTW.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 87, posted (4 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1906 times:
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 84): They don't have to worry about the size of the plane when your losses are being subsidized by SCASD grants and subsidies from airports desperate for service. Marketing consultants have told them that there are a lot of people wanting to fly TOL-EWR. Hopefully the consultants will be held accountable.
Those losses are going to liquidate the grant in less than a month! Yipes!
You know and I know that consultants are NEVER held accountable. They don't get paid for good or bad ideas, only ideas.
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 84): The average traveller needs to leave TOL at Noon for a 3pm departure. The amount of time you need to allow for parking, checkin, security, and walking to the gate is far greater.
And this is for a 50 minute drive. Imagine if the drive was longer.
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 84): The reason is because we are sold out of $9 fares in all but the Toledo, Ohio market for all future flights through September 2009. However, there are still plenty of one way seats available at fares starting as low as $19 one way," said JetAmerica spokesperson Bryan Glazer.
May have something to do with the 9AM EWR-TOL flight. I am sure they can't figure out why it isn't packed!
Don't even get me started on those fares. The $9 fare was removed because the USDOT asked them to make clear how the $9 fares are purchased. It is why all references to a dollar amount were removed.
Toledo's Port Authority sounds upset. Perhaps it is fixable before they go out the door.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States, joined Sep 2007, 2183 posts, RR: 1 Reply 88, posted (4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1825 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 82):
Airlines haven't offered any signficant free meals in domestic coach for many years and many of the LCC's never have. People are pretty used to not getting food.
This is what I never understood. Way back when, airline food was always someone's joke "airline food is terrible; it's the worse; why don't they make the plane out of the airline food". Now it's gone and people complain! I always found that to be funny.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
Toltommy From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2587 posts, RR: 5 Reply 89, posted (4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1655 times:
Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 86):
I couldn't justify $300 more when my boss was going also, would look bad.
I had to bust your chops. You never told me about the boss travelling with you. You never had a chance of flying out of here.
Quoting JA (Reply 87): Those losses are going to liquidate the grant in less than a month! Yipes!
Yeah, but I think that was the plan. Grab as much of the SCASD money as quick as possible, use the "profit" that TOL-EWR generates with the grant to pay off the investors or open new routes.
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 85): Probably about the time the contract with Sixel is ended...
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 92, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1472 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 91): It absolutely has to do with codeshare. I don't even understand why DOT grants awards to non-codesharing airlines. Total waste.
ZK is roughly two thirds of the EAS program.
These cities wanted bigger planes or more flights. They got 19 seaters on a 30 seater schedule. They also allegedly had big reliability issues in the beginning. The codeshare is only a part of this issue and it is not the biggest part either. There is a big difference in comfort, capacity, and fares when a 30 seater is used. Furthermore, if you get off to a rough start, things never recover without marketing and with $5,000 allowed for marketing...
Please get your facts before you type this kind of stuff. Do you work for them or know anything going on behind the scenes? I sure do. And it is not their fault at all. I am not at liberty to discuss this, so I am not going to.
Flyinryan99 From United States, joined Feb 2001, 1454 posts, RR: 14 Reply 100, posted (4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1106 times:
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 101): JetAmerica is still on the TOL website.....
That joke of a website? Talk about amateurish...
I wonder if we'll get the original "well we showed some airlines out there that there is demand for certain routes" or "other carriers will pick up the slack." HA - Allegiant practically wants nothing to do with this market now too....
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3108 posts, RR: 1 Reply 101, posted (4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1044 times:
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 95): Please get your facts before you type this kind of stuff. Do you work for them or know anything going on behind the scenes?
Right now there is little reason to have confidence in JetAmerica. This latest issue with slots is just stupid. Slots are fundemental to the running of an airline. This isn't like a last minute issue that cropped up, or a paperwork snafu. We are talking monumental blunder here. Poor execution on top of a schizophrenic business plan is not a good formula.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
FWAERJ From United States, joined Jun 2006, 785 posts, RR: 1 Reply 103, posted (4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 771 times:
As of yesterday, according to KSTP-TV 5 (the ABC affiliate in Minneapolis/St. Paul), JetAmerica doesn't have a gate or a ground handling contract at MSP, either, even though they're supposed to start TOL-MSP service four weeks from today.
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