TheAirlineBlog From United States, joined Jun 2009, 5 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9502 times:
Many people have been wondering if JetAmerica is actually going to fly. They are supposed to have their first flight on July 13th, but I have still not seen a real photo of their aircraft and now they have "a server glitch" (http://www.theairlineblog.com/?p=1231) and no one can book any flights.
Jaunted talked to JetAmerica and when asked if they will still be flying on the 13th they said, "As far as I know, yeah" which doesn't boost confidence.
Anyone have any more information on the status of this? Anyone seen a real picture of a JetAmerica aircraft? Anyone buy a ticket?
MSYtristar From United States, joined Aug 2005, 5439 posts, RR: 55 Reply 4, posted (5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9343 times:
I'm not sure how they believe that they will fill a fairly high capacity 737-800. I'm sure Miami Air is giving them good terms but I don't see for the life of me how this airline will be in business for more than six months.
UA's 744 Y-class seat is more comfortable than DL's new 77L Y-class seat.
TheAirlineBlog From United States, joined Jun 2009, 5 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9068 times:
Even if they are going to fly, there seems to be so much oddness and unprofessionalism surrounding them, I just don't see this happening. And if it does happen, I doubt it will happen well.
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2880 posts, RR: 31 Reply 6, posted (5 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8861 times:
Quoting TheAirlineBlog (Reply 5): Even if they are going to fly, there seems to be so much oddness and unprofessionalism surrounding them, I just don't see this happening. And if it does happen, I doubt it will happen well.
Pretty much. I like the markets they picked but would have done more leisure traffic first to build the brand. That isn't to take anything away from the difficulty they are going to have anyway build traffic from TOL, LAN and SBN...but their total lack of focus and professionalism is just pathetic.
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2880 posts, RR: 31 Reply 7, posted (5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8811 times:
Reporting this on FlyTOL.com right now...
They are unable to secure gate access at EWR and the airport is unwilling to work with them. Read into what you will, they probably can't meet the funding requirement that Newark is requiring.
Time to scrap EWR as the plan and go with a Florida or other leisure destination strategy. Which sucks going into the slow season.
"The delay is not as unusal as it sounds... Historically, many of the world's most successful airlines and charter services have had to delay their launches." Uh huh. Riiight.
"People should not be quick to jump to negative conclusions about JetAmerica. I am particularly referring to internet bloggers and naysayers who are predicting the worst." Perhaps he refers to A.net?
'Do we carry rich people on our flights? Yes, I flew on one this morning and I�m very rich.' - Michael O'Leary
JoseKMLB From United States, joined May 2008, 403 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8507 times:
Yeah down here in MLB we are hearing maybe another month delay due to gate spaces at EWR. Like I said down here dont trust anything until you see it come.
Af773atmsp From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2141 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8313 times:
Is TOL-MSP still starting around August or is that also delayed? It will be nice to see some more color variety at MSP however I'm sure in a few months Jet America will pull out.
Its not a question of if an Air France 773 will be at MSP, its just a question of when.-May 31, 2009
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 274 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8169 times:
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 7): They are unable to secure gate access at EWR and the airport is unwilling to work with them. Read into what you will, they probably can't meet the funding requirement that Newark is requiring.
Time to scrap EWR as the plan and go with a Florida or other leisure destination strategy. Which sucks going into the slow season.
They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 15, posted (5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8154 times:
Given the fact that these folks are the ones that brought-up and killed SkyBus..... I wouldn't be surrpised if they never made it in the air at all. I hope the DOT realizes that and does not issue them an operating certificate.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Flyinryan99 From United States, joined Feb 2001, 1462 posts, RR: 14 Reply 16, posted (5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8011 times:
Is EWR slot controlled? I can't remember. If it is by the DOT, isn't there a stipulation in the slots that it is open to new entrants to allow for competition? I am not saying JA was right in the way they have tried to obtain slots, but I see this as whoever controls the slots not allowing for competition (not a single carrier flies TOL/LAN/SBN-EWR). I don't know the rules on this stuff so if someone could educate me I would greatly appreciate it. On the shell, it looks like this could be prohibiting competition at EWR (until someone can educate me of course )
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2880 posts, RR: 31 Reply 17, posted (5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7723 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 14): They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
Yeah I'm aware of that. I should have read my statement before submitting. What I was actually think is that they should have EWR down to just 3-4 weekly flights to start and have a couple additional florida routes.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15): Given the fact that these folks are the ones that brought-up and killed SkyBus..... I wouldn't be surrpised if they never made it in the air at all. I hope the DOT realizes that and does not issue them an operating certificate.
They created Skybus yes...but were gone the day after they took flight. And they are a PUBLIC CHARTER...they aren't flying on their own cert.
Luv2cattlecall From United States, joined Sep 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7342 times:
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 17): They created Skybus yes...but were gone the day after they took flight. And they are a PUBLIC CHARTER...they aren't flying on their own cert.
Isn't that the same scheme Morris tried to pull before Alaska had the regulators pull out the BS flag?
When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
Crosswinds21 From United States, joined Jun 2009, 186 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7240 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 14): They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
Joelfreak From United States, joined Nov 2005, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7017 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15): They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
Come on, you CANNOT tell me they can't get slot space at ISP. No one may BUY flights to TOL from ISP, but there are slots that are there for the taking...my guess is they need to go EWR/LGA/JFK, which is MUCH harder.
TOL is using a $400K grant they received from the DOT under the Small Community Air Service Development program to help fund the service for the first year. The DOT gives out around $10M each year split up among anywhere from 10 to 20 airports, give or take. Same type of funds that made success stories out of airports like CAK, though in other cases they didn't work at all. Typically locals that get the funds have to match with a certain amount, and in this case the Toledo Port Authority is matching with $200K in funding and then there is somewhere around another $300K in marketing that is pledged to the startup.
Now the grants are usually pretty specific as the airport that apply for them submit business cases for a certain market. Typically airlines will join the bid in support and once the grant money is available, they'll be the ones that offer the service. TOL's is specific to the New York market, so that is where they are restricted to using the funding. It took TOL roughly 3 attempts (if I remember right) to get the funding to start NYC; the previous 2 applications Delta was the sponsor airline but didn't have any interest the 3rd time around. The funds also have a time limit until they need to be returned to the DOT, I think it is 2 or 3 years and TOL is at the end of that time frame.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 274 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5878 times:
Quoting Joelfreak (Reply 21): Come on, you CANNOT tell me they can't get slot space at ISP. No one may BUY flights to TOL from ISP, but there are slots that are there for the taking...my guess is they need to go EWR/LGA/JFK, which is MUCH harder.
LOL...because their connecting passengers won't tolerate it, right?
There is no physical need for them to go into JFK, LGA, or EWR. None. ISP has a rail line less than 10 minutes away and the LIRR has finally begun to advertise that they can get people from Penn Station to ISP and back. The most important thing for them right now should be to operate their flights ON-TIME. As a new carrier, no one is going to give them any slack if they run late.
It isn't all that hard to get slots early in the morning at EWR. Middays and evenings on the other hand, is a big issue. At $6.75/1000 lb, EWR is also way more expensive than ISP ($2.89) or SWF ($1.20). I suspect the slot issue is a smokescreen for soft bookings relative to the size of the plane.
Quoting Crosswinds21 (Reply 20): Quoting JA (Reply 14):
They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
If I may ask, what does this mean?
It means that as part of the deal for TOL to award JetAmerica its grant, JetAmerica MUST fly to the NYC area. Their inability to get slots at EWR has the potential to affect their entire business plan because I am guessing that their ridership assumptions are based on using JFK/EWR/LGA. If they don't fly to NYC, then TOL won't fund them. The grant that is being used was acquired to incubate NYC service. I don't think the USDOT will be flexible on this one.
My biggest problem with the JetAmerica operation is the wake that they are leaving. In speaking to the airports, they want to see people with "aviation experience". They are also leery of startups. Startups make them very nervous. While they look great on paper, JetAmerica is having all kinds of power struggles and false starts. That means when I go to an airport, they are going to point to JetAmerica and say "Gee, we would rather not be part of a circus". On one hand, I can't blame them, but on the other hand, a Part 380 airline is probably the best option for many communities. One can fly any sized plane that they need under that authority without the hassle. If JetAmerica doesn't get in the air and soon, the rest of us future Part 380s are going to be in hot water.
26 Toltommy: The problem is that they need the guaranteed profit the TOL-EWR flight is going to create. They can tap the SCASD grant until it's gone, and use it t
27 Luv2cattlecall: As unviable as JetAmerica seems to be... why should the state of the industry have anything to do with someone getting a certificate? That's the type
28 JoseKMLB: The JA tickect counter here in MLB saying service to start mid aug. Is CO holding gate spaces you think?
30 TravelExec: Giving newcomers the chance to do things right does not necessarily mean that they will grasp that chance and actually do things right... The newcome
31 Toltommy: I'm 50/50. They've got to have a chance, I agree. And If they meet the certification requirements, the operating certificate MUST be issued, regardle
32 Ouboy79: This may open a can of worms to require all airlines to sell their product at a level that will cover the costs for that seat. However, I am with you
33 Luv2cattlecall: There are MANY industries where newcomers use loss-leaders to break into the marketplace... The whole thing with variable pricing and yield managment
34 AirframeAS: I don't consider these people as 'newcomers' at all.
35 FATFlyer: Mike Boyd, in characteristic style, discusses JetAmerica today. An interesting quote: "Running the numbers provided in the JetAmerica press release, a
36 Toltommy: Let's split the baby and say its 57 people per flight. Still well under 1/2 full on average. Using the available fares as a gauge, I'd say the Florida
37 JA: They could have just used ERJs. Why would they do that to themselves? There is only so much demand that can be stimulated. They are going to screw it
38 Enilria: Airlines never quote passengers in roundtrips. Show that to me in any traffic press release. This whole thing is bizarre. They are just chasing subsi
39 JoseKMLB: News Press Release Melbourne, Florida–July 2, 2009–JetAmerica, the nation’s newest low fare indirect air carrier service that offers non-stop se
40 JA: This should be a lesson to ALL airports with grants, especially some of you that are ignoring nobodies until the last minute. You want to see "aviatio
41 BMI727: JA, I think that you are basically right that JetAmerica has gone about this all wrong. The entire idea was totally unrealistic at those prices. That
42 JA: Relatively speaking, they are. The seat cost won't be JetAmerica's $71, it would be more like $80-85. That's a big number until you break it down. Am
43 BMI727: CASM doesn't mean crap if the plane isn't full, which is where JetAmerica went off track. Your math seems sound, and your philosophy on RJs is a lot
44 JA: Exactly. I hope they take the time to look hard at their network. It is their last shot. The first snafu cost them almost 14,000 bookings (20,000 vs
45 SkyguyB727: This is just another example of an airline that couldn't come up with its own identity. The original JetAmerica (with no space between the words) was
46 Ouboy79: Honestly, outside of this site and the airline nerds of the world...no one remembers Jet America for the most part - especially in the East. On FlyTO
47 JA: This is actually a fairly simple job: TOL-ISP 2x ER4 LAN-BWI 1x ER4 SBN-BWI 2x ER4 MLB-BWI 1x ER4 With the impending fare war at BWI, there would be p
48 Ouboy79: I would imagine if you wanted SCASD funding, ISP would be out. Also, an impending fare war in BWI - why would you go into the bear's cage with high c
49 KcrwFlyer: You cant post something like this without explaining how routes like TOL-ISP make sense. So go for it.
50 JA: ISP is a New York metro satellite airport. It has shuttle bus service to a rail line that operates directly to Manhattan. It counts. JetAmerica isn't
51 BMI727: Isn't this kind of what SkyBus tried to do? The average a*netter could do it, but most pax are lazy. They want to log on, type in their destination a
52 JA: No. Skybus did not want to have to yield manage across several routes. By managing each route individually, you make your life much easier. What I wo
53 Ouboy79: If it meets the terms of the grant set by the DOT, okay then. The best example I can think of right away is Chicago Express back in the early 90s. Th
54 JA: Chicago Express also did reasonably well until ATA got into trouble. Any passenger scheduling a less than 1 hour connection is taking a big risk anyw
55 FlyPNS1: Not when they can simply take a short drive to DTW and avoid all that hassle you are describing and still get a low-fare. And what happens when one o
56 JA: Is driving not a hassle? It can be, particularly if it is an hour or more after all of the flying that may have been done. Customers don't want JFK,
57 Toltommy: This sounds very similar to what Ryanair has done in Europe. WN dominates ISP, but they don't seem interested in secondary airports anymore. There's
58 JA: The LIRR already markets direct service from ISP to Penn Station for $18 each way and it includes the shuttle bus. http://www.mta.info/lirr/getaways/
59 FlyPNS1: Yes and for most people JFK, LGA and EWR are much closer. Despite all of ISP's supposed convenience and the millions of people nearby, only WN makes
60 JA: Most consumers want direct flights. Most consumers prefer free food on flights. Money talks...loudly. Consumers will check in twice to save money. I
61 Ouboy79: I was referring to them more so when they were flying junkstreams, not as ATA Connection. Well which one are you using now? Before you stated the ERJ
62 JetBlueGuy2006: LAN-DTW is a good hour and a half I still think LAN is underserved, they just need to get the right amount of service, because I do think people will
63 Jetlanta: The problem is that your argument is economically unsound. There is no way that two separate carriers can (or will) provide air service at a cost tha
64 Ouboy79: OMG you drive slow. :-P LOL Ya I was off a bit on that time there. :-X
65 Flyinryan99: I hate it. I just did it today and it's 50 minutes one way. I had to book DTW-LGA because my boss lives 15 minutes away. But think of it this way. If
66 JA: Heh. Let's take GLH (a potential SCASD market). The route is GLH-ATL once daily. Fare matrices based on a sample run 4/14/2009 for a travel date of 5
67 JA: Hmmm...that's interesting. You mean there are other places that exist besides Manhattan? Heresy! Perhaps you can explain to certain airlines that you
68 Jetlanta: Let's take your back-dated example at face value. Fine. (Which I could probably find hundreds of markets that say the opposite.) One big problem: In
69 Jetlanta: It's not radical at all. That's how all airlines USED to operate. The problem is that the pro-ration settlements required by the major don't leave en
70 BMI727: So in the old days, the regionals would pay the majors a portion of the fare for each pax the major connected to them? How many pax actually connect
71 Jetlanta: No, the majors gave the regionals a portion of the collected fare. The majors sold the tickets purchased under their code. Next to zero. In fact, pro
72 BMI727: And I guess eventually they just started buying the whole plane and flying it under their brand. I just looked at the website, and if you really want
73 JA: Yes, there is. Part 380s have higher costs, but can be run with zero debt if structured properly. We have a factoring line of credit to protect any S
74 FlyASAGuy2005: Where I see wide connections A LOT is on government fares. Why? I have no clue; but they usually average 2 hrs if not more. Random tickets off say De
75 JA: When you do your random sample, see where they connect. For example, the CVG bank provides 35-75 minute connections. CVG flights generally leave on t
76 KcrwFlyer: You have to get off this idea, its not making sense. Taking a taxi or bus or any form of public transport to the airport is not nearly the same thing
77 Sunking737: JA owns a bus service. That explains his answers. Its on his profile.
78 JA: It does, actually. I am used to going across multiple modes with little assistance. What I am proposing is something that many people do every day. N
79 JA: http://www.jaunted.com/story/2009/7/...e+Who+Still+Want+to+Fly+JetAmerica http://www.jaunted.com/story/2009/7/...Rages%3A+JetAmerica+Versus+The+FAA Ja
80 JA: http://www.airportbusiness.com/onlin...p?siteSection=1&id=29367&pageNum=1 Miami Air warns JetAmerica not to sell EWR tickets without slots.
81 FlyASAGuy2005: This is getting uglier by the day...
82 FlyPNS1: Airlines haven't offered any signficant free meals in domestic coach for many years and many of the LCC's never have. People are pretty used to not g
83 JA: People in those cities have complained about ZK's reliability. If you think this has anything to do with the codeshare, I have a bridge to sell you.
84 Toltommy: They don't have to worry about the size of the plane when your losses are being subsidized by SCASD grants and subsidies from airports desperate for
85 Ouboy79: Probably about the time the contract with Sixel is ended...as long as they don't do any rehiring.
86 Flyinryan99: I couldn't justify $300 more when my boss was going also, would look bad. He was flying out of DTW no matter what, so you decide what was the better
87 JA: Those losses are going to liquidate the grant in less than a month! Yipes! You know and I know that consultants are NEVER held accountable. They don'
88 FlyASAGuy2005: This is what I never understood. Way back when, airline food was always someone's joke "airline food is terrible; it's the worse; why don't they make
89 Toltommy: I had to bust your chops. You never told me about the boss travelling with you. You never had a chance of flying out of here. Yeah, but I think that
91 MAH4546: It absolutely has to do with codeshare. I don't even understand why DOT grants awards to non-codesharing airlines. Total waste.
92 JA: ZK is roughly two thirds of the EAS program. These cities wanted bigger planes or more flights. They got 19 seaters on a 30 seater schedule. They als
93 Flyinryan99: Rumor has it that all of the banners and propoganda have been removed from Toledo Airport... Stay tuned.
95 PilotNTrng: Please get your facts before you type this kind of stuff. Do you work for them or know anything going on behind the scenes? I sure do. And it is not
96 FWAERJ: MLB deleted all references to JetAmerica from their website, too.
98 BMI727: The "everything is OK, but I can't tell you why" approach while most everything we do know is negative doesn't do much for me either.
99 Toltommy: JetAmerica is still on the TOL website.....
100 Flyinryan99: That joke of a website? Talk about amateurish... I wonder if we'll get the original "well we showed some airlines out there that there is demand for
101 BMI727: Right now there is little reason to have confidence in JetAmerica. This latest issue with slots is just stupid. Slots are fundemental to the running
102 Toltommy: Signage is down in the terminal at TOL.
103 FWAERJ: As of yesterday, according to KSTP-TV 5 (the ABC affiliate in Minneapolis/St. Paul), JetAmerica doesn't have a gate or a ground handling contract at M
104 Sunking737: If it happens at all. Another I told you so airline. But look at all the exposure they are getting.
105 Toltommy: Our friend here in TOL must not have been able to convince the MAC to buy equipment for him!
106 FlyASAGuy2005: Bottom line! They sure have displayed a lot thus far...What can we expect if/ when they take off.
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