TheAirlineBlog From United States, joined Jun 2009, 5 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9483 times:
Many people have been wondering if JetAmerica is actually going to fly. They are supposed to have their first flight on July 13th, but I have still not seen a real photo of their aircraft and now they have "a server glitch" (http://www.theairlineblog.com/?p=1231) and no one can book any flights.
Jaunted talked to JetAmerica and when asked if they will still be flying on the 13th they said, "As far as I know, yeah" which doesn't boost confidence.
Anyone have any more information on the status of this? Anyone seen a real picture of a JetAmerica aircraft? Anyone buy a ticket?
MSYtristar From United States, joined Aug 2005, 5429 posts, RR: 55 Reply 4, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9324 times:
I'm not sure how they believe that they will fill a fairly high capacity 737-800. I'm sure Miami Air is giving them good terms but I don't see for the life of me how this airline will be in business for more than six months.
UA's 744 Y-class seat is more comfortable than DL's new 77L Y-class seat.
TheAirlineBlog From United States, joined Jun 2009, 5 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9049 times:
Even if they are going to fly, there seems to be so much oddness and unprofessionalism surrounding them, I just don't see this happening. And if it does happen, I doubt it will happen well.
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2879 posts, RR: 31 Reply 6, posted (4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8842 times:
Quoting TheAirlineBlog (Reply 5): Even if they are going to fly, there seems to be so much oddness and unprofessionalism surrounding them, I just don't see this happening. And if it does happen, I doubt it will happen well.
Pretty much. I like the markets they picked but would have done more leisure traffic first to build the brand. That isn't to take anything away from the difficulty they are going to have anyway build traffic from TOL, LAN and SBN...but their total lack of focus and professionalism is just pathetic.
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2879 posts, RR: 31 Reply 7, posted (4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8792 times:
Reporting this on FlyTOL.com right now...
They are unable to secure gate access at EWR and the airport is unwilling to work with them. Read into what you will, they probably can't meet the funding requirement that Newark is requiring.
Time to scrap EWR as the plan and go with a Florida or other leisure destination strategy. Which sucks going into the slow season.
"The delay is not as unusal as it sounds... Historically, many of the world's most successful airlines and charter services have had to delay their launches." Uh huh. Riiight.
"People should not be quick to jump to negative conclusions about JetAmerica. I am particularly referring to internet bloggers and naysayers who are predicting the worst." Perhaps he refers to A.net?
'Do we carry rich people on our flights? Yes, I flew on one this morning and I�m very rich.' - Michael O'Leary
JoseKMLB From United States, joined May 2008, 402 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8488 times:
Yeah down here in MLB we are hearing maybe another month delay due to gate spaces at EWR. Like I said down here dont trust anything until you see it come.
Af773atmsp From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2128 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8294 times:
Is TOL-MSP still starting around August or is that also delayed? It will be nice to see some more color variety at MSP however I'm sure in a few months Jet America will pull out.
Its not a question of if an Air France 773 will be at MSP, its just a question of when.-May 31, 2009
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8150 times:
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 7): They are unable to secure gate access at EWR and the airport is unwilling to work with them. Read into what you will, they probably can't meet the funding requirement that Newark is requiring.
Time to scrap EWR as the plan and go with a Florida or other leisure destination strategy. Which sucks going into the slow season.
They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 15, posted (4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8135 times:
Given the fact that these folks are the ones that brought-up and killed SkyBus..... I wouldn't be surrpised if they never made it in the air at all. I hope the DOT realizes that and does not issue them an operating certificate.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Flyinryan99 From United States, joined Feb 2001, 1454 posts, RR: 14 Reply 16, posted (4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7992 times:
Is EWR slot controlled? I can't remember. If it is by the DOT, isn't there a stipulation in the slots that it is open to new entrants to allow for competition? I am not saying JA was right in the way they have tried to obtain slots, but I see this as whoever controls the slots not allowing for competition (not a single carrier flies TOL/LAN/SBN-EWR). I don't know the rules on this stuff so if someone could educate me I would greatly appreciate it. On the shell, it looks like this could be prohibiting competition at EWR (until someone can educate me of course )
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2879 posts, RR: 31 Reply 17, posted (4 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7704 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 14): They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
Yeah I'm aware of that. I should have read my statement before submitting. What I was actually think is that they should have EWR down to just 3-4 weekly flights to start and have a couple additional florida routes.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15): Given the fact that these folks are the ones that brought-up and killed SkyBus..... I wouldn't be surrpised if they never made it in the air at all. I hope the DOT realizes that and does not issue them an operating certificate.
They created Skybus yes...but were gone the day after they took flight. And they are a PUBLIC CHARTER...they aren't flying on their own cert.
Luv2cattlecall From United States, joined Sep 2007, 1479 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7323 times:
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 17): They created Skybus yes...but were gone the day after they took flight. And they are a PUBLIC CHARTER...they aren't flying on their own cert.
Isn't that the same scheme Morris tried to pull before Alaska had the regulators pull out the BS flag?
When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
Crosswinds21 From United States, joined Jun 2009, 167 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7221 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 14): They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
Joelfreak From United States, joined Nov 2005, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6998 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15): They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
Come on, you CANNOT tell me they can't get slot space at ISP. No one may BUY flights to TOL from ISP, but there are slots that are there for the taking...my guess is they need to go EWR/LGA/JFK, which is MUCH harder.
TOL is using a $400K grant they received from the DOT under the Small Community Air Service Development program to help fund the service for the first year. The DOT gives out around $10M each year split up among anywhere from 10 to 20 airports, give or take. Same type of funds that made success stories out of airports like CAK, though in other cases they didn't work at all. Typically locals that get the funds have to match with a certain amount, and in this case the Toledo Port Authority is matching with $200K in funding and then there is somewhere around another $300K in marketing that is pledged to the startup.
Now the grants are usually pretty specific as the airport that apply for them submit business cases for a certain market. Typically airlines will join the bid in support and once the grant money is available, they'll be the ones that offer the service. TOL's is specific to the New York market, so that is where they are restricted to using the funding. It took TOL roughly 3 attempts (if I remember right) to get the funding to start NYC; the previous 2 applications Delta was the sponsor airline but didn't have any interest the 3rd time around. The funds also have a time limit until they need to be returned to the DOT, I think it is 2 or 3 years and TOL is at the end of that time frame.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5859 times:
Quoting Joelfreak (Reply 21): Come on, you CANNOT tell me they can't get slot space at ISP. No one may BUY flights to TOL from ISP, but there are slots that are there for the taking...my guess is they need to go EWR/LGA/JFK, which is MUCH harder.
LOL...because their connecting passengers won't tolerate it, right?
There is no physical need for them to go into JFK, LGA, or EWR. None. ISP has a rail line less than 10 minutes away and the LIRR has finally begun to advertise that they can get people from Penn Station to ISP and back. The most important thing for them right now should be to operate their flights ON-TIME. As a new carrier, no one is going to give them any slack if they run late.
It isn't all that hard to get slots early in the morning at EWR. Middays and evenings on the other hand, is a big issue. At $6.75/1000 lb, EWR is also way more expensive than ISP ($2.89) or SWF ($1.20). I suspect the slot issue is a smokescreen for soft bookings relative to the size of the plane.
Quoting Crosswinds21 (Reply 20): Quoting JA (Reply 14):
They cannot use the TOL SCASD grant unless they fly into NYC. That means JFK LGA EWR ISP SWF HPN. They must find a way into NYC.
If I may ask, what does this mean?
It means that as part of the deal for TOL to award JetAmerica its grant, JetAmerica MUST fly to the NYC area. Their inability to get slots at EWR has the potential to affect their entire business plan because I am guessing that their ridership assumptions are based on using JFK/EWR/LGA. If they don't fly to NYC, then TOL won't fund them. The grant that is being used was acquired to incubate NYC service. I don't think the USDOT will be flexible on this one.
My biggest problem with the JetAmerica operation is the wake that they are leaving. In speaking to the airports, they want to see people with "aviation experience". They are also leery of startups. Startups make them very nervous. While they look great on paper, JetAmerica is having all kinds of power struggles and false starts. That means when I go to an airport, they are going to point to JetAmerica and say "Gee, we would rather not be part of a circus". On one hand, I can't blame them, but on the other hand, a Part 380 airline is probably the best option for many communities. One can fly any sized plane that they need under that authority without the hassle. If JetAmerica doesn't get in the air and soon, the rest of us future Part 380s are going to be in hot water.
Toltommy From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2587 posts, RR: 5 Reply 26, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6024 times:
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 17): What I was actually think is that they should have EWR down to just 3-4 weekly flights to start and have a couple additional florida routes.
The problem is that they need the guaranteed profit the TOL-EWR flight is going to create. They can tap the SCASD grant until it's gone, and use it to subsidize the other flights, in hopes they will become profitable on their own. That's why there 6 flights a week with a 738 between TOL and EWR.
Quoting JA (Reply 25): I suspect the slot issue is a smokescreen for soft bookings relative to the size of the plane.
Exactly. Most TOL-EWR flights were still priced at $29. Demand was defiantly lacking.
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 7): They are unable to secure gate access at EWR and the airport is unwilling to work with them. Read into what you will, they probably can't meet the funding requirement that Newark is requiring.
EWR isn't desperate for air service to the cities JA is flying to. There's no need to give everything away to this startup, like is happening on the other end of the routes.
Luv2cattlecall From United States, joined Sep 2007, 1479 posts, RR: 2 Reply 27, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5873 times:
Quoting Silentbob (Reply 19): Given the condition of the industry they shouldn't be giving anyone a new certificate right now.
As unviable as JetAmerica seems to be... why should the state of the industry have anything to do with someone getting a certificate? That's the type of thinking that would have prevented B6 or WN from starting up. I would argue that the current state of the industry is precisely the reason they should allow newcomers a chance at doing things right. Obviously the incumbents aren't able to allocate resources properly after all..
When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 29, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5659 times:
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 27): I would argue that the current state of the industry is precisely the reason they should allow newcomers a chance at doing things right.
You have not heard of SkyBus???
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
TravelExec From Spain, joined Dec 2007, 340 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5612 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29):
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 27):
I would argue that the current state of the industry is precisely the reason they should allow newcomers a chance at doing things right.
You have not heard of SkyBus??? sarcastic
Giving newcomers the chance to do things right does not necessarily mean that they will grasp that chance and actually do things right...
The newcomers should still get the chance... letting them try is only bad for the investors in the duds - but generally good for competition in general, and thereby for the passenger/consumer.
Toltommy From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2587 posts, RR: 5 Reply 31, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5320 times:
Quoting TravelExec (Reply 30): The newcomers should still get the chance... letting them try is only bad for the investors in the duds - but generally good for competition in general, and thereby for the passenger/consumer.
I'm 50/50. They've got to have a chance, I agree. And If they meet the certification requirements, the operating certificate MUST be issued, regardless of the economy. The problem I have is that these "airlines" are allowed to sell their product at well below cost, rather than be forced in the certification process to show that they have the means to offer a product at a cost that will sustain the airline.
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2879 posts, RR: 31 Reply 32, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5168 times:
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 31): The problem I have is that these "airlines" are allowed to sell their product at well below cost, rather than be forced in the certification process to show that they have the means to offer a product at a cost that will sustain the airline.
This may open a can of worms to require all airlines to sell their product at a level that will cover the costs for that seat. However, I am with you...the biz plan should be setup to where you aren't going out on day 1 throwing millions of dollars out the window just to grab market share. Now granted I don't think advertising $59-79 one way (whatever the costs would work out to be for a specific operation) is a bad thing...still seems pretty good to me. The $9 junk though just throws money away...when you probably could have got them for at least $29 one way.
Luv2cattlecall From United States, joined Sep 2007, 1479 posts, RR: 2 Reply 33, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5146 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29): You have not heard of SkyBus??? sarcastic
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 31): I'm 50/50. They've got to have a chance, I agree. And If they meet the certification requirements, the operating certificate MUST be issued, regardless of the economy. The problem I have is that these "airlines" are allowed to sell their product at well below cost, rather than be forced in the certification process to show that they have the means to offer a product at a cost that will sustain the airline.
There are MANY industries where newcomers use loss-leaders to break into the marketplace... The whole thing with variable pricing and yield managment makes it impossible to determine if an airline is selling tickets below cost. If they wanted, they could offer one seat on each flight for $30,000 and claim that if there are enough pax, the flight would make money.
I think that the profit-motive is enough of a reason for an airline to price their product at sustainable levels. I would trust the opinion of the guy forking over millions of his own money to invest in an airline much more than I would trust the regulator who is influenced by incumbents (i.e. the crap VX had to go through)... We may not feel that JetAmerica is viable, but obviously the investors do. Keep in mind that FedEx, Learjet, McDonalds, etc were all companies that were called "failures" from the get-go.
When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
AirframeAS From United States, joined Feb 2004, 9973 posts, RR: 32 Reply 34, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5042 times:
Quoting TravelExec (Reply 30): Giving newcomers the chance to do things right does not necessarily mean that they will grasp that chance and actually do things right...
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 33): There are MANY industries where newcomers use loss-leaders to break into the marketplace...
I don't consider these people as 'newcomers' at all.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
FATFlyer From United States, joined May 2001, 4961 posts, RR: 39 Reply 35, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4870 times:
Mike Boyd, in characteristic style, discusses JetAmerica today.
An interesting quote: "Running the numbers provided in the JetAmerica press release, and assuming they're accurate, the math indicates that the five weeks' delay in starting service represented about 170 cancelled segments (34 a week x 5 weeks). The release also proudly notes that there were 6,486 consumers who were already ticketed for those segments, and due refunds.
Computing this out, their data - again, given in their own press release - would seem to indicate JetAmerica, two weeks from service start, had average bookings of 38 passengers per segment, operated with 737-800 airliners. Big jets and not a lot of people. Lotsa room for air service comfort. http://www.aviationplanning.com/asrc1.htm
When I originally read the JetAmerica press release it wasn't clear to me if the 6,486 tickets were one-way or roundtrip.
Even if they were roundtrip then 6486 X 2 divided by 170 segments is 76 passengers per segment.
Whether it is 38 passengers or 76 passengers per segment, that is still weak loads on a 738 only 2 weeks before launch.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
Toltommy From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2587 posts, RR: 5 Reply 36, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4774 times:
Let's split the baby and say its 57 people per flight. Still well under 1/2 full on average. Using the available fares as a gauge, I'd say the Florida service had the higher load factors, at least from here in TOL. Demand was just a little bit overstated.
I gotta wonder how this hits JA in the pocket. There has to be some kind of penalty with Miami Air, dontcha think? Miami air had to commit to being ready to fly in 2 weeks. Crews probably had bid for the month, etc. Allegedly they were going to open a TOL crew base. Don't move yet!
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4575 times:
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 36): Let's split the baby and say its 57 people per flight. Still well under 1/2 full on average. Using the available fares as a gauge, I'd say the Florida service had the higher load factors, at least from here in TOL. Demand was just a little bit overstated.
They could have just used ERJs. Why would they do that to themselves? There is only so much demand that can be stimulated.
They are going to screw it up for EVERYBODY. In this economy, I foresee SCASD money being pulled early for cities that haven't used theirs yet. I am sure that this case will be used as cover.
Enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 2194 posts, RR: 6 Reply 38, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4555 times:
Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 35): When I originally read the JetAmerica press release it wasn't clear to me if the 6,486 tickets were one-way or roundtrip.
Airlines never quote passengers in roundtrips. Show that to me in any traffic press release.
This whole thing is bizarre. They are just chasing subsidies and SCASD grants. I can only hope they expect to use that money to get to the "next level" and not run to Bolivia with the money.
JoseKMLB From United States, joined May 2008, 402 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4545 times:
News
Press Release
Melbourne, Florida–July 2, 2009–JetAmerica, the nation’s newest low fare indirect air carrier service that offers non-stop seats starting at $9 each way announces today it is self-imposing a 31 day delay of the launch of its first flights, which were originally scheduled for July 13, 2009 but are now slated to take-off on August 14, 2009.
“The delay is not as unusual as it sounds,” according to JetAmerica’s Vice President of Operations Brian Burling. “Historically many of the world’s most successful airlines and charter services have had to delay their launches.”
The primary reason for the delay is due to unforeseen complications with landing and take-off time slots at Newark Liberty International Airport, New Jersey.
Burling says, February 2009, the Federal Aviation Administration advised us, through an intermediary, that our operations at Newark could be accommodated.
“However, at about the same time JetAmerica started making national news with its $9 non-stop fares; when JetAmerica announced 60,000 website visitors; and sales in excess of 20,000 the FAA re-clarified its policy telling JetAmerica we would need to obtain slots,” according to Burling.
JetAmerica is sending out a blast e-mail today advising 6,486 passengers that booked flights from July 13 through August 13, 2009 that their credit card accounts will be fully refunded for all charges. The credits should appear on e-statements within seven to 14 days.
“Recognizing that this delay is an inconvenience; as a courtesy aimed at preventing erosion of consumer confidence, JetAmerica will offer passengers who were originally booked on flights from July 13 through August 13 special incentives to rebook on future flights when they call our reservations center,” says JetAmerica spokesperson Bryan Glazer.
“These incentives include waiving the standard $10 reservations convenience fee. We will also waive the $20 fee for the first-checked piece of baggage and the $10 seat assignment fee,” says Glazer.
JetAmerica, a Part 380 indirect air carrier, subcontracting aircraft from Miami Air International, still intends to provide Boeing 737-800 big jet, roundtrip, non-stop flights starting on August 14, 2009 from Lansing, Michigan; Melbourne-Vero Beach, Florida; South Bend, Indiana; and Toledo, Ohio to New York-Newark Liberty International Airport, New Jersey. JetAmerica is also flying roundtrip flights between Toledo and Melbourne-Vero Beach and Minneapolis-St. Paul; and from Lansing to Melbourne-Vero Beach.
“Initially, JetAmerica planned to fly 34 weekly flight segments starting on July 13, 2009. On August 14, 2009 the number of flights is still slated to expand to 40 per week. There are no immediate plans to change our flight schedules,” according to Burling.
JetAmerica Chief Executive Officer John Weikle says, “We feel terrible for the folks who booked with us for travel during the July 13 - August 13 timeframe, but the FAA’s change in the slot policy for indirect air carriers is beyond our control. We are working hard to obtain all the slots we need as soon as possible.”
That FAA’s policy change was not brought to the carrier’s attention until after it had already made millions of dollars in sales, according to JetAmerica.
JetAmerica’s successful business model is based on flying big jets and offering non-stop, low fare flights in cities where passengers are currently forced to travel on turbo prop planes and small commuter jets. They must make connections, endure long layovers and pay extremely expensive airfares to travel to high demand destinations such as New York and Florida. JetAmerica is offering fares 50 to 70 percent less than other carriers flying similar but indirect routes.
“People should not be quick to jump to negative conclusions about JetAmerica,” warns Burling. “I am particularly referring to internet bloggers and naysayers who are predicting the worst.”
www.JetAmerica.com is still active and customers can still book online reservations.
Burling concludes, “The overwhelming customer demand for these flights that we experienced so far shows just how underserved these markets are and how much people want to fly JetAmerica.”
Consumers affected by the delayed launched may call: 727-451-3970 for information on how their refunds will be processed
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4455 times:
This should be a lesson to ALL airports with grants, especially some of you that are ignoring nobodies until the last minute. You want to see "aviation people". You want to see lots of money behind a potential carrier. However, the math doesn't lie. JetAmerica is a great concept on paper, but the reality is that the network is a tough network to do on this budget with the aircraft used. The fare structure is rubbish...pure rubbish. The "aviation people" think that most SCASD airports do not need more service. By definition, you need something that breaks the mold in a mathematically sensible way. Sorry Toledo, South Bend, Lansing, and Melbourne...this is not your ticket. Direct Air's routes make sense (generally) and are priced sensibly too. The JetAmerica crew has delayed flying three times after an internal power struggle...face it, they are done.
However, I'm going to do you all one better than Boyd, Jaunted, The Cranky Flier, Today In The Sky et al. I will propose an air service plan for all four communities myself. I run a business, I have taken risks in the past and gotten really burned and my credit is toast because of it. It is really easy to run one's mouth on the sideline, but few of us would take the risk ourselves. I will not only propose the plan, I will execute it. Your communities deserve a better shot at additional air service than they are getting now. I'll take the grant money and put out a product that is realistic, useful, and at least moderately professional. I can't guarantee success, but I can guarantee better effort.
JetAmerica has one last shot at these communities. No more excuses. Then, I'll go from an anonymous internet "naysayer" to 3-D. There are regionals with 50 seaters (and maybe 70 seaters) doing nothing who would be happy for the work.
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3102 posts, RR: 1 Reply 41, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4428 times:
JA, I think that you are basically right that JetAmerica has gone about this all wrong. The entire idea was totally unrealistic at those prices.
Quoting JA (Reply 40): There are regionals with 50 seaters (and maybe 70 seaters) doing nothing who would be happy for the work.
That has been tried before and failed. 50 seaters are easier to fill, but they are awfully expensive to fly. If the costs can be kept under control, and the prices are reasonable, yet cover the costs it may work. A 70 seater would help a bit, but only if you can fill it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4393 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41): 50 seaters are easier to fill, but they are awfully expensive to fly.
Relatively speaking, they are. The seat cost won't be JetAmerica's $71, it would be more like $80-85. That's a big number until you break it down. Am I more likely to carry 50 people or 189 people at 7AM in the morning? Can I saw the 738 into four pieces and fly them 45 seats at a time? CASM is never the whole story. A market like TOL/SBN/LAN/MLB would have better numbers with 50-100 seats in each direction to a major destination than 189 seats 2-6 times per week. One covers more of the market with the RJ, so your passenger pool is better.
It costs around $4,500 per hour to fly an RJ versus $7,000 per hour minimum for a 738. At a $100 fare for a 1 hour flight, we are talking a breakeven of 45 pax for the RJ versus 70 pax for the 738. Clearly, the CASM on the 738 destroys the 50 seat RJ, but it requires me to get 55% more passengers for the same frequency. You don't get a 55% increase in pax just by flying a big jet. Let's go one step further. I could hope to grab 70 pax on one 738 or 90 pax on two 50 seat RJs. Can I hope for a 28% increase in pax by running two flights instead of one? Absolutely...I can cover more of the market.
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3102 posts, RR: 1 Reply 43, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4368 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 42): CASM is never the whole story.
CASM doesn't mean crap if the plane isn't full, which is where JetAmerica went off track. Your math seems sound, and your philosophy on RJs is a lot better than that of major airlines. RJ's are for markets that can't support large jets, and I highly doubt that JetAmerica's markets can.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4341 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43): CASM doesn't mean crap if the plane isn't full, which is where JetAmerica went off track.
Exactly. I hope they take the time to look hard at their network. It is their last shot. The first snafu cost them almost 14,000 bookings (20,000 vs 6,486).
SkyguyB727 From United States, joined Sep 2007, 389 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4280 times:
This is just another example of an airline that couldn't come up with its own identity. The original JetAmerica (with no space between the words) was bought out by Alaska Airlines. It doesn't say much for the company's management if the best they could do was recycle another airline's name.
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2879 posts, RR: 31 Reply 46, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4260 times:
Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 45): This is just another example of an airline that couldn't come up with its own identity. The original JetAmerica (with no space between the words) was bought out by Alaska Airlines. It doesn't say much for the company's management if the best they could do was recycle another airline's name.
Honestly, outside of this site and the airline nerds of the world...no one remembers Jet America for the most part - especially in the East.
Quoting JA (Reply 40): I run a business, I have taken risks in the past and gotten really burned and my credit is toast because of it. It is really easy to run one's mouth on the sideline, but few of us would take the risk ourselves. I will not only propose the plan, I will execute it. Your communities deserve a better shot at additional air service than they are getting now. I'll take the grant money and put out a product that is realistic, useful, and at least moderately professional. I can't guarantee success, but I can guarantee better effort.
On FlyTOL.com we've been tossing around ideas in a "sandbox" on how we would do such an operation. Feel free to drop by if you are seriously interested in any such in depth discussion.
Quoting JA (Reply 44): Exactly. I hope they take the time to look hard at their network. It is their last shot. The first snafu cost them almost 14,000 bookings (20,000 vs 6,486).
Definitely. I think the market is there for their routes, but it is going to take a while to develop. Could TOL support a 738 to EWR? Some day sure. You have to get the pax back to using TOL first though. I always liked the idea of using Q400s on a network of routes from TOL, but those really aren't just laying around. Jet America needs to go back to the drawing board. Like Tommy stated, SCADS funding is going to dictate they need to be on the TOL-EWR route. I think the time is here for them to relook at the equipment they are using. 737-800 is overkill right now. CRJ is going to blow their costs out. Though looking at a group to fly 737-200s or DC-9s with the lower seat count could help. You all may have a better idea at costs, but I would assume it would be lower.
Next thing is dumb SBN and LAN. Yeah you may be getting some funding from them, but you are pulling (essentially) from the same market...especially LAN. With the freed up time slots, toss in the leisure destinations that will actually draw travelers in Toledo. Any combination of PGB, FLL, PBI, and/or RSW would help. Now the other market, MSP, I would keep. It seems to actually be doing okay (it is in the highest fare bucket so far compared to the others), and should be left to develop. If that and EWR develop well, I would go back and look at IAD/BWI, ATL, MDW, COS/DEN, and maybe DFW.
Who knows. Jet America just seems to be shooting themselves in the feet...and they are essentially out of the pair now.
I would imagine if you wanted SCASD funding, ISP would be out. Also, an impending fare war in BWI - why would you go into the bear's cage with high cost 50 seaters?
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3793 times:
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 48): I would imagine if you wanted SCASD funding, ISP would be out.
ISP is a New York metro satellite airport. It has shuttle bus service to a rail line that operates directly to Manhattan. It counts.
Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 49): You cant post something like this without explaining how routes like TOL-ISP make sense. So go for it.
JetAmerica isn't selling connections. As a new service, you need a reliable airport or your business is fried. Ask an airline how expensive delays are. Since I would put two flights on TOL-ISP, I need an airport that is reliable as well as accessible. ISP has shuttle bus service to the LIRR Ronkonkoma line, which offers at least hourly rail service all day into Penn Station. The airport does not seize up every time it rains. I could stick supplemental express bus service right down the LIE if I had to. Passengers will spend the time saved getting to EWR/LGA/JFK on the ground in a queue of planes waiting to take off.
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 48): Also, an impending fare war in BWI - why would you go into the bear's cage with high cost 50 seaters?
I am not dinner. The fare war will produce the cheapest fares to fly the WN, B6, or FL network seen from that airport. My philosophy is predicated on teaching passengers how to connect without codeshares and interlines. BWI is an LCC buffet.
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3102 posts, RR: 1 Reply 51, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3749 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 50): My philosophy is predicated on teaching passengers how to connect without codeshares and interlines.
Isn't this kind of what SkyBus tried to do? The average a*netter could do it, but most pax are lazy. They want to log on, type in their destination and date of travel, and pick an option that suits them best.
Quoting JA (Reply 50): ISP is a New York metro satellite airport. It has shuttle bus service to a rail line that operates directly to Manhattan. It counts.
Would the extra time of doing the bus/rail thing still outweigh connecting and flying directly to one of the closer in airports? You would have to have a significant cost advantage, which is difficult to get using 50 seat RJs.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3669 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51): Isn't this kind of what SkyBus tried to do?
No. Skybus did not want to have to yield manage across several routes. By managing each route individually, you make your life much easier. What I would be doing is bringing passengers to the hub and saying "Build a transfer to DL, B6, WN, FL or someone else".
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51): The average a*netter could do it, but most pax are lazy.
You have it backward. The average a.netter thinks I'm nuts, but the pax do it every day. At JFK, the buses aren't interlined with the jets. Neither is Airtrain JFK. You have to physically make that transfer yourself. I am 100% sure that people would save $50-100 each way (for the early birds) and check in twice and be screened twice.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51): Would the extra time of doing the bus/rail thing still outweigh connecting and flying directly to one of the closer in airports?
Yes. The fragility of operations at JFK/LGA/EWR are legendary.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51): You would have to have a significant cost advantage, which is difficult to get using 50 seat RJs.
It's all relative. People prefer flying nonstop to connecting. I don't have to carry everyone. I just have to be profitable.
Ouboy79 From United States, joined Nov 2001, 2879 posts, RR: 31 Reply 53, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3619 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 50): ISP is a New York metro satellite airport. It has shuttle bus service to a rail line that operates directly to Manhattan. It counts.
If it meets the terms of the grant set by the DOT, okay then.
Quoting JA (Reply 53): No. Skybus did not want to have to yield manage across several routes. By managing each route individually, you make your life much easier. What I would be doing is bringing passengers to the hub and saying "Build a transfer to DL, B6, WN, FL or someone else".
The best example I can think of right away is Chicago Express back in the early 90s. They offered the reasonable prices flights into MDW and advertised the passengers ability to connect to Southwest. The catch, you are responsible for doing it and yeah...no interline agreement, so don't forget to recheck your bags. Essentially something like this, with no interline agreements, you've just added several minutes if not much much more to that passengers trip. They aren't going to be able to do a 1 hour or less connection. They are going to have to go out of the secure area, claim their bags, go check in, check their bags, and go back through security. I would guess that BWI may have some wait time at the check point.
Quoting JA (Reply 53): You have it backward. The average a.netter thinks I'm nuts, but the pax do it every day. At JFK, the buses aren't interlined with the jets. Neither is Airtrain JFK. You have to physically make that transfer yourself. I am 100% sure that people would save $50-100 each way (for the early birds) and check in twice and be screened twice.
I would love to see some real numbers on the cost to the passenger on this. I just don't see how you make it work with 50 seat high cost RJs, add in the cost of time to get bussed in from ISP, and how you keep it all simple and convenient for passengers. Your first batch of passengers are going to either be bargain hunters chasing after your intro rates, or they are people fed up with the other airlines to try something new. The more steps you put in their ability to go from their originating airport to the door step of their destination, the less likely you'll build value and have a positive customer experience.
Quoting JA (Reply 53): It's all relative. People prefer flying nonstop to connecting. I don't have to carry everyone. I just have to be profitable.
I don't think any company sets out to lose money, but there are situations where you need to know what customer you want to go after. Here with JetAmerica, they are going after O&D. If you are wanting to mix in people that are going to connect on to Southwest, AirTran, etc...then you probably just tripled the amount of work you need to do to break even. Let alone, a passenger is now going to compare your service from TOL and LAN to the nonstop service from DTW. They will want to know what the value of your service is to hop airlines in BWI/NYC and the added steps needed to make it happen, versus hopping on Delta and getting there in probably half the time.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3580 times:
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 54): The best example I can think of right away is Chicago Express back in the early 90s. They offered the reasonable prices flights into MDW and advertised the passengers ability to connect to Southwest. The catch, you are responsible for doing it and yeah...no interline agreement, so don't forget to recheck your bags. Essentially something like this, with no interline agreements, you've just added several minutes if not much much more to that passengers trip.
Chicago Express also did reasonably well until ATA got into trouble.
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 54): Essentially something like this, with no interline agreements, you've just added several minutes if not much much more to that passengers trip. They aren't going to be able to do a 1 hour or less connection.
Any passenger scheduling a less than 1 hour connection is taking a big risk anyway. The airlines don't even like connections that short between their own flights.
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 54): I just don't see how you make it work with 50 seat high cost RJs, add in the cost of time to get bussed in from ISP, and how you keep it all simple and convenient for passengers.
The mission determines the plane. RJs have lower seat costs than props, but RJs can't be filled everywhere. Likewise, 738s have lower seat costs than RJs, but you can't fill 738s everywhere.
JFKLGA/EWR have a 40 minute time advantage in terms of getting to the airport. However, the regular congestion will erase 50-75% of that. I read an article about how the CRW-LGA service was doing well, but the crew was getting in so late at night that the AM departure was being affected. AA can afford that. A startup CANNOT. Many flights leaving from or arriving to NYC after 12PM are late 50-70% of the time. Chronic lateness will kill the operation. I have been expressely warned by an airline to stay out of JFK and LGA.
FlyPNS1 From United States, joined Nov 1999, 3781 posts, RR: 26 Reply 55, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3425 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 52): I am 100% sure that people would save $50-100 each way (for the early birds) and check in twice and be screened twice.
Not when they can simply take a short drive to DTW and avoid all that hassle you are describing and still get a low-fare. And what happens when one of your flights is delayed and passengers miss their connection at BWI? They will be screwed and it would be the last time they fly your operation.
Quoting JA (Reply 52):
Yes. The fragility of operations at JFK/LGA/EWR are legendary.
Legendary yes, but most consumers don't want ISP...particularly if their destination is Manhattan. Even WN has stagnated at ISP because they simply can't attract a larger customer base.
Quoting JA (Reply 54): The airlines don't even like connections that short between their own flights.
Actually, that's what most of the airlines aim for. In fact, much of FL's connecting traffic in ATL has much shorter connections.
Quoting JA (Reply 52): The average a.netter thinks I'm nuts, but the pax do it every day.
Very few passengers build their own connections, particularly on the domestic side. It's more common for international flights, but domestically it is very rare. If your business model relies heavily on these type of people, you are in trouble.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3367 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 55): Not when they can simply take a short drive to DTW and avoid all that hassle you are describing and still get a low-fare.
Is driving not a hassle? It can be, particularly if it is an hour or more after all of the flying that may have been done.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 55): Legendary yes, but most consumers don't want ISP...particularly if their destination is Manhattan. Even WN has stagnated at ISP because they simply can't attract a larger customer base.
Customers don't want JFK, LGA, or EWR...they want their final destination. An airport is a means to an end, not the end. WN hasn't pushed ISP very hard as an alternative to JFK/LGA/EWR. For many people in Brooklyn/Queens, ISP is closer than EWR. In just those two boroughs, there are 4.4M people.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 55): ally, that's what most of the airlines aim for. In fact, much of FL's connecting traffic in ATL has much shorter connections.
Toltommy From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2587 posts, RR: 5 Reply 57, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3340 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51): Would the extra time of doing the bus/rail thing still outweigh connecting and flying directly to one of the closer in airports? You would have to have a significant cost advantage, which is difficult to get using 50 seat RJs.
This sounds very similar to what Ryanair has done in Europe. WN dominates ISP, but they don't seem interested in secondary airports anymore. There's a market for the right sized aircraft, flying to markets that have no NYC service. If you could work the transfer thing out, and sell the transfer on the LIRR so that the pax didn't have to worry about it when they got to ISP, it could do well. But a 738 is the wrong plane. I think a 175 or CRJ900 could be useful.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3323 times:
Quoting Toltommy (Reply 57): If you could work the transfer thing out, and sell the transfer on the LIRR so that the pax didn't have to worry about it when they got to ISP, it could do well.
The LIRR already markets direct service from ISP to Penn Station for $18 each way and it includes the shuttle bus.
FlyPNS1 From United States, joined Nov 1999, 3781 posts, RR: 26 Reply 59, posted (4 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3249 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 56): Customers don't want JFK, LGA, or EWR...they want their final destination.
Yes and for most people JFK, LGA and EWR are much closer. Despite all of ISP's supposed convenience and the millions of people nearby, only WN makes it work and they only have about 20 flights a day. WN's inability to really grow ISP says something about the market.
Sure, you'd want longer connections at the NYC airports, but who the heck is going to connect in ISP. Coming from TOL, SBN or LAN, ISP doesn't offer much except flights to Florida and BWI which wouldn't be helpful.
Quoting JA (Reply 58):
Why does everyone except JetAmerica know this?
I think JetAmerica knows it, but it's what is readily available from Miami Air. A better plane would be something close to 100 seats, but there aren't a lot of those in current operation that could be cheaply leased.
It can be, but the drive from TOL to DTW isn't usually that bad. And remember, most consumers hate doing things like checking bags and going through airport security and waiting at baggage claim for luggage to return. Making them repeat that process twice on short domestic flights will not go well.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (4 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3207 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 59): most consumers hate doing things like checking bags and going through airport security and waiting at baggage claim for luggage to return. Making them repeat that process twice on short domestic flights will not go well.
Most consumers want direct flights.
Most consumers prefer free food on flights.
Money talks...loudly. Consumers will check in twice to save money. I have deliberately selected a regional as my direct air carrier of choice so that this can be fixed down the road if it becomes an issue. While I am not oblivious to the hassle that checking in is, no one is going to convince me that driving an hour in each direction and paying parking fees is less onerous than checking in twice (other than at JFK, LGA, & EWR).
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 59): WN's inability to really grow ISP says something about the market.
I've never seen a WN ad in NYC. It would not be hard to grow ISP at all if they wanted to. There are a lot of air travelers in their catchment area.
I thought BWI was your connecting city? TOL-NYC is obviously an O&D pure market.
Quoting JA (Reply 60): Most consumers want direct flights.
Most consumers prefer free food on flights.
Money talks...loudly. Consumers will check in twice to save money. I have deliberately selected a regional as my direct air carrier of choice so that this can be fixed down the road if it becomes an issue. While I am not oblivious to the hassle that checking in is, no one is going to convince me that driving an hour in each direction and paying parking fees is less onerous than checking in twice (other than at JFK, LGA, & EWR).
Sure money talks, until the hurdles become too high or confusing. One of the failings of Skybus was the lack of connections in CMH. Expecting customers to handle their own connections across other airlines isn't going to work out too well.
JetBlueGuy2006 From United States, joined Jan 2006, 1387 posts, RR: 1 Reply 62, posted (4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3119 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 61): Well you have DTW...which is an hour or less drive from TOL or LAN
LAN-DTW is a good hour and a half
I still think LAN is underserved, they just need to get the right amount of service, because I do think people will use it if it is there and priced right.
It will be interesting to see how the new Apple Vacation service on USA 3000 does to CUN. I think people will love the fact that LAN is now International service capable and is a lot less crowded than DTW
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
Jetlanta From United States, joined Jul 2001, 1710 posts, RR: 19 Reply 63, posted (4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3104 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 60): Money talks...loudly. Consumers will check in twice to save money. I have deliberately selected a regional as my direct air carrier of choice so that this can be fixed down the road if it becomes an issue. While I am not oblivious to the hassle that checking in is, no one is going to convince me that driving an hour in each direction and paying parking fees is less onerous than checking in twice (other than at JFK, LGA, & EWR).
The problem is that your argument is economically unsound. There is no way that two separate carriers can (or will) provide air service at a cost that, when combined, will be lower than one of the alternate low-fare flights from a larger nearby airport.
Even the lowest-cost, bargain-basement carrier will price their segments to maximize their gain. When two carriers do the same thing, without regard for the other, the fare is not going to end up lower than what AirTran or Southwest can offer nonstop. And they can't collude without ATI.
And even if they did price it in such a way, they wouldn't be around long.
Besides, you sounds as if you think fares are HIGH. Exactly how much do you think your scheme is going to save people? I just priced a DTW-MCO for random dates in September and got a $118 roundtrip fare! Even if was $318, you'd still have to demonstrate to passengers that they'd save an appreciable amount to make it worth the hassle. How much do you think you are going to save them? If your two carriers split a $300 RT fare (which saves all of $18!) , each carrier would be left for $150 BEFORE taxes are taken out! How in the world do those economics work? The answer is...they don't. And won't.
And all of this assumes that you have some sort of easy booking mechanism. People won't create these crazy itineraries themselves. Hell, they could do it today if they wanted, but they don't.
Flyinryan99 From United States, joined Feb 2001, 1454 posts, RR: 14 Reply 65, posted (4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3007 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 59): It can be, but the drive from TOL to DTW isn't usually that bad.
I hate it. I just did it today and it's 50 minutes one way. I had to book DTW-LGA because my boss lives 15 minutes away. But think of it this way. If TOL could get it's own nonstops to LGA on 76-100 seat aircraft, I think it would draw more people then others are thinking. This is the cost breakdown for a 26 hour trip to LGA (actually Farmingdale in which ISP woulda been great ).
Fare was $220 ($440 total) which I think is really too low for a 7 day advance purchase.
Round trip re-imbursement milage: $55
Parking: $40 (could've been two of us but I parked my car at my boss' house)
Hotel: $360 (both of us)
Food: Approx $150 (both of us)
Total: $1045
Get a couple of round trip flights that leaves fairly early and gets back at a reasonable time and we get it for $350 - $400 each I would easily go for.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 63): The problem is that your argument is economically unsound.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 66, posted (4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2969 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 63): The problem is that your argument is economically unsound. There is no way that two separate carriers can (or will) provide air service at a cost that, when combined, will be lower than one of the alternate low-fare flights from a larger nearby airport.
Heh.
Let's take GLH (a potential SCASD market). The route is GLH-ATL once daily. Fare matrices based on a sample run 4/14/2009 for a travel date of 5/12/2009. The aircraft is an ERJ-145. All fares are one way.
DL fares from GLH:
Airport Code Date Fare Before Taxes
New York LaGuardia LGA 12-May $158.51
Chicago O'Hare ORD 12-May $142.50
Atlanta ATL 12-May $253.31
Washington DC IAD 12-May $272.50
Detroit DTW 12-May $265.50
Los Angeles LAX 12-May $678.51
Tampa TPA 12-May $205.51
Minneapolis MSP 12-May $663.50
Dallas/Fort Worth DFW 12-May $573.50
Orlando MCO 12-May $148.50
Constricted fare buckets (GLH-ATL):
Class Code Fare Priority 1st bag 2nd bag Taxes Seats
Coach U $90.00 $15.00 $15.00 $15.00 $10.60 10
Coach V $110.00 $15.00 $15.00 $15.00 $10.60 15
Coach G $125.00 $15.00 $15.00 $15.00 $10.60 15
Coach B $140.00 $15.00 $15.00 $15.00 $10.60 9
DL fares in ATL (run 4/15, flight date 6/1):
Airport Code Date Fare Before Taxes
Las Vegas LAS 1-Jun $153.00
Los Angeles LAX 1-Jun $169.00
Chicago O'Hare ORD 1-Jun $109.01
Orlando MCO 1-Jun $99.00
Atlanta ATL 1-Jun …
Phoenix PHX 1-Jun $139.00
Denver DEN 1-Jun $144.00
New York LaGuardia LGA 1-Jun $124.00
Dallas/Fort Worth DAL 1-Jun $124.00
Boston PVD 1-Jun $129.00
Seattle SEA 1-Jun $179.00
New York Newark EWR 1-Jun $129.00
Philadelphia PHL 1-Jun $119.00
New York Kennedy JFK 1-Jun $124.00
Fort Lauderdale FLL 1-Jun $63.99
San Francisco SFO 1-Jun $174.00
Tampa TPA 1-Jun $99.00
Baltimore BWI 1-Jun $109.01
San Diego SAN 1-Jun $169.00
Detroit DTW 1-Jun $109.01
Minneapolis/St Paul MSP 1-Jun $74.00
Washington National DCA 1-Jun $109.01
Houston HOU 1-Jun $119.00
Oakland OAK 1-Jun $144.00
Chicago Midway MDW 1-Jun $109.01
Honolulu HNL 1-Jun $957.00
Portland PDX 1-Jun $207.00
Washington Dulles IAD 1-Jun $109.01
St Louis STL 1-Jun $78.00
Salt Lake City SLC 1-Jun $192.99
Direct Comparison:
Market DL@GLH Me + DL@ATL Price Advantage
LGA $158.51 $214 DL
ORD $142.50 $199.01 DL
ATL $253.31 $90 Me
IAD $272.50 $199.01 Me
DTW $265.50 $199.01 Me
LAX $678.51 $259 Me
TPA $205.51 $189 Me
MSP $663.50 $164 Me
DFW $573.50 $214 Me
MCO $148.50 $189 DL
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 63): Besides, you sounds as if you think fares are HIGH. Exactly how much do you think your scheme is going to save people? I just priced a DTW-MCO for random dates in September and got a $118 roundtrip fare! Even if was $318, you'd still have to demonstrate to passengers that they'd save an appreciable amount to make it worth the hassle. How much do you think you are going to save them? If your two carriers split a $300 RT fare (which saves all of $18!) , each carrier would be left for $150 BEFORE taxes are taken out! How in the world do those economics work? The answer is...they don't. And won't.
They do...however, it is not the typical way that today's airlines use RJs. The closest you get to what I am doing today is AS. They feed multiple airlines on the same flight. This is how the numbers work. Of course, DL would never split a feeder flight with FL. However, an independent feeder would feed both DL and FL on the same flight. Think about it that way and it won't be so radical.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 63): People won't create these crazy itineraries themselves.
Crazy? This is why G4 is eating everyone's lunch. The stuff that people say passengers won't do is exactly what is happening at G4 and FR. I have a clean sheet of paper...most airlines do not.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2955 times:
Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 65): I hate it. I just did it today and it's 50 minutes one way.
Hmmm...that's interesting.
Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 65): This is the cost breakdown for a 26 hour trip to LGA (actually Farmingdale in which ISP woulda been great ).
You mean there are other places that exist besides Manhattan? Heresy!
Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 65): Get a couple of round trip flights that leaves fairly early and gets back at a reasonable time and we get it for $350 - $400 each I would easily go for.
Perhaps you can explain to certain airlines that your CASM is irrelevant when 75% of the plane is empty.
Let's take GLH (a potential SCASD market). The route is GLH-ATL once daily. Fare matrices based on a sample run 4/14/2009 for a travel date of 5/12/2009. The aircraft is an ERJ-145. All fares are one way.
DL fares from GLH:
Airport CodeDateFare Before Taxes
New York LaGuardiaLGA12-May$158.51
Chicago O'HareORD12-May$142.50
Atlanta ATL12-May$253.31
Washington DCIAD12-May$272.50
Detroit DTW12-May$265.50
Los AngelesLAX12-May$678.51
Tampa TPA12-May$205.51
MinneapolisMSP12-May$663.50
Dallas/Fort WorthDFW12-May$573.50
Orlando MCO12-May$148.50
DL fares in ATL (run 4/15, flight date 6/1):
Airport CodeDateFare Before Taxes
Las Vegas LAS1-Jun$153.00
Los AngelesLAX1-Jun$169.00
Chicago O'HareORD1-Jun$109.01
Orlando MCO1-Jun$99.00
Atlanta ATL1-Jun…
Phoenix PHX1-Jun$139.00
Denver DEN1-Jun$144.00
New York LaGuardiaLGA1-Jun$124.00
Dallas/Fort WorthDAL1-Jun$124.00
Boston PVD1-Jun$129.00
Seattle SEA1-Jun$179.00
New York NewarkEWR1-Jun$129.00
PhiladelphiaPHL1-Jun$119.00
New York KennedyJFK1-Jun$124.00
Fort LauderdaleFLL1-Jun$63.99
San FranciscoSFO1-Jun$174.00
Tampa TPA1-Jun$99.00
Baltimore BWI1-Jun$109.01
San Diego SAN1-Jun$169.00
Detroit DTW1-Jun$109.01
Minneapolis/St PaulMSP1-Jun$74.00
Washington NationalDCA1-Jun$109.01
Houston HOU1-Jun$119.00
Oakland OAK1-Jun$144.00
Chicago MidwayMDW1-Jun$109.01
Honolulu HNL1-Jun$957.00
Portland PDX1-Jun$207.00
Washington DullesIAD1-Jun$109.01
St Louis STL1-Jun$78.00
Salt Lake CitySLC1-Jun$192.99
Direct Comparison:
Market DL@GLH Me + DL@ATL Price Advantage
LGA $158.51 $214 DL
ORD $142.50 $199.01 DL
ATL $253.31 $90 Me
IAD $272.50 $199.01 Me
DTW $265.50 $199.01 Me
LAX $678.51 $259 Me
TPA $205.51 $189 Me
MSP $663.50 $164 Me
DFW $573.50 $214 Me
MCO $148.50 $189 DL
Let's take your back-dated example at face value. Fine. (Which I could probably find hundreds of markets that say the opposite.) One big problem:
In the real world, airlines don't have ONLY operating costs. Unless you are running a debt-free airline. (Is there such a thing?)
I deal with small markets for a living. This crap won't work. In a fantasy world maybe, but not in the real world. People won't do it.
And your Alaska example isn't valid because that is true interline, this isn't. Heck, that is even better than interline, because it is usually codeshare under a single code and pricing structure.
Jetlanta From United States, joined Jul 2001, 1710 posts, RR: 19 Reply 69, posted (4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2865 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 66):
They do...however, it is not the typical way that today's airlines use RJs. The closest you get to what I am doing today is AS. They feed multiple airlines on the same flight. This is how the numbers work. Of course, DL would never split a feeder flight with FL. However, an independent feeder would feed both DL and FL on the same flight. Think about it that way and it won't be so radical.
It's not radical at all. That's how all airlines USED to operate. The problem is that the pro-ration settlements required by the major don't leave enough revenue for the regional to make a profit. Those days are long gone. In fact, that's why majors started just buying capacity outright.
Now we are seeing some trends back to pro-rate agreements. But the only place those work are in high fare markets that can support a fair pro-ration.
And NONE of them involve this crazy notion of re-checking bags and going through security again. Not to mention booking separately and manually building interline connections.
Quoting JA (Reply 66): Crazy? This is why G4 is eating everyone's lunch. The stuff that people say passengers won't do is exactly what is happening at G4 and FR. I have a clean sheet of paper...most airlines do not.
What is crazy about a G4 itinerary??? Every flight is an online NONSTOP. Nothing could be MORE simple.
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3102 posts, RR: 1 Reply 70, posted (4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2836 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 69): It's not radical at all. That's how all airlines USED to operate. The problem is that the pro-ration settlements required by the major don't leave enough revenue for the regional to make a profit.
So in the old days, the regionals would pay the majors a portion of the fare for each pax the major connected to them?
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 69): What is crazy about a G4 itinerary??? Every flight is an online NONSTOP. Nothing could be MORE simple.
How many pax actually connect on G4? I imagine that it does happen, but I should think that they are mostly O&D. Plus, some airports such as PIE or AZA have few or no connection opportunities on other airlines due to lack of service.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
BMI727 From United States, joined Feb 2009, 3102 posts, RR: 1 Reply 72, posted (4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 2800 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 71): No, the majors gave the regionals a portion of the collected fare. The majors sold the tickets purchased under their code.
And I guess eventually they just started buying the whole plane and flying it under their brand.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 71): Next to zero. In fact, probably zero. There is no system in place, nor decent connecting opportunity.
I just looked at the website, and if you really want to connect, you need to get two separate tickets by yourself.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2782 times:
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 68): In the real world, airlines don't have ONLY operating costs. Unless you are running a debt-free airline. (Is there such a thing?)
Yes, there is. Part 380s have higher costs, but can be run with zero debt if structured properly. We have a factoring line of credit to protect any SCASD contracts that we are awarded. The cap on the line is the total contract value.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 68): I deal with small markets for a living. This crap won't work. In a fantasy world maybe, but not in the real world. People won't do it.
I disagree with you. They will do it as long as they understand how to do it. In the real world, people get to the airport by bus, subway, or taxi. In most cases, they move their own bags between systems. In most cases, they buy a separate ticket for the ride to the airport and for the flight. Most ground transportation options are not in the GDS in the United States. The booking agreement between CO and Amtrak was a big deal because through ticketing between air & rail in the US is RARE. Air travelers do it themselves every day in order to get to/from the airport.
In the real world, a business looks at the whole purchase chain. To tell me that a customer won't do this is to not understand what they do to get to/from the airport. FR was smart enough to look at that aspect and it helps them make more money.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 69): The problem is that the pro-ration settlements required by the major don't leave enough revenue for the regional to make a profit. Those days are long gone. In fact, that's why majors started just buying capacity outright.
So, what you are telling me is that the majors forced a change in the old system, not the passengers.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 69): And NONE of them involve this crazy notion of re-checking bags and going through security again.
This sounds like hysteria to me.
1) Many business travelers and students travel light. Not everyone will be tortured with re-checking bags. They can stay in the sterile area.
2) Most travelers can clear security in 10 minutes.
3) RJs can board at the FBO. In theory, we can operate outside of TSA if we wanted. It's something that we are considering in very high traffic markets where we can obtain bomb sniffing dogs under contract. However, most smaller airports process very quickly.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 69): What is crazy about a G4 itinerary??? Every flight is an online NONSTOP. Nothing could be MORE simple.
And people connect with G4 on occasion. My point is that certain G4 concepts were thought to be nuts and now everyone is implementing them.
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 71): Next to zero. In fact, probably zero. There is no system in place, nor decent connecting opportunity.
All someone has to do is buy a second ticket, re-check in and go. To say that isn't easy is ridiculous. G4 has multiple hubs and transfers can be done.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States, joined Sep 2007, 2183 posts, RR: 1 Reply 74, posted (4 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2749 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 54): Any passenger scheduling a less than 1 hour connection is taking a big risk anyway. The airlines don't even like connections that short between their own flights.
Where I see wide connections A LOT is on government fares. Why? I have no clue; but they usually average 2 hrs if not more.
Random tickets off say Delta.com? 45 minute connections seem the norm, sometimes less. Why have the passenger sit for that long with a flight that probably left while they were waiting. I seems to me that they are trying to get the traffic in and out.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2674 times:
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 74): 45 minute connections seem the norm, sometimes less.
When you do your random sample, see where they connect. For example, the CVG bank provides 35-75 minute connections. CVG flights generally leave on time.
KcrwFlyer From United States, joined May 2004, 2484 posts, RR: 9 Reply 76, posted (4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2695 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 73): I disagree with you. They will do it as long as they understand how to do it. In the real world, people get to the airport by bus, subway, or taxi. In most cases, they move their own bags between systems. In most cases, they buy a separate ticket for the ride to the airport and for the flight. Most ground transportation options are not in the GDS in the United States. The booking agreement between CO and Amtrak was a big deal because through ticketing between air & rail in the US is RARE. Air travelers do it themselves every day in order to get to/from the airport.
You have to get off this idea, its not making sense. Taking a taxi or bus or any form of public transport to the airport is not nearly the same thing as buying two separate tickets on an airline and having to check in twice. Likewise, getting off one bus downtown and getting on another is pretty simple too. People do this because unless they drive their own car, they usually HAVE TO.
Taking your bags off a bus and to the ticket counter shouldn't take more than 5 or 10 minutes. Getting off a flight, getting your bags, checking in, and going through security and to the gate again takes ALOT longer than that.
Just because people do something similar to get to/from an airport doesn't mean they'll do it to get to/from another domestic flight just to save a few bucks. You say its a matter of passenger education, but when most people fly they want to buy a ticket, give the airline their bags, move easily to their flight(s), and pick their bags up at the final destination. They don't want their plane tickets to come with a treasure map or a playbook of how to build and execute their itinerary.
Quoting JA (Reply 73): In the real world, a business looks at the whole purchase chain. To tell me that a customer won't do this is to not understand what they do to get to/from the airport. FR was smart enough to look at that aspect and it helps them make more money.
Thats because the LAN's and TOL's of Europe almost ALL have some form of light rail (or other mass transport) into their respective (DTW).
Quoting JA (Reply 73): 2) Most travelers can clear security in 10 minutes.
right............
Quoting JA (Reply 73): And people connect with G4 on occasion. My point is that certain G4 concepts were thought to be nuts and now everyone is implementing them.
Like what? besides fees.
Quoting JA (Reply 66): Crazy? This is why G4 is eating everyone's lunch. The stuff that people say passengers won't do is exactly what is happening at G4 and FR.
What are these wild and crazy G4 pax doing? Booking cheap, simple, nonstop travel to a vacation destination? Yeah they're breaking all the rules.....
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 78, posted (4 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2585 times:
Quoting Sunking737 (Reply 77): JA owns a bus service. That explains his answers.
It does, actually.
I am used to going across multiple modes with little assistance. What I am proposing is something that many people do every day. NJ's transit system does not provide "interlines" with NY's transit system. Give me a map, a schedule, and fares and I'm gone. I don't need more help than that.
Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 76): Taking a taxi or bus or any form of public transport to the airport is not nearly the same thing as buying two separate tickets on an airline and having to check in twice. Likewise, getting off one bus downtown and getting on another is pretty simple too. People do this because unless they drive their own car, they usually HAVE TO.
Hmmm...big assumption. Driving in NYC is stressful. If you want to hear clergy swear, put them behind the wheel in NYC.
Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 76): You say its a matter of passenger education, but when most people fly they want to buy a ticket, give the airline their bags, move easily to their flight(s), and pick their bags up at the final destination.
They also are used to having food on the plane and not paying extra for bags. An airline (like a bus or a train or a ferry) is transportation. When people fly, they want to go from A to B in one piece. 70% of FR's passengers carry NO CHECKED LUGGAGE at all. What you just described is an assumption about your passenger base. FR has built an operation that rewards passengers for flying light. A fair amount of the business travelers here on a.net constantly talk about how light they travel.
Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 76): Thats because the LAN's and TOL's of Europe almost ALL have some form of light rail (or other mass transport) into their respective (DTW).
A lot of them do...but with no interlines. The interlining usually happens at major rail hubs that have airport rail services. Are Europeans more advanced than Americans?
Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 76): What are these wild and crazy G4 pax doing? Booking cheap, simple, nonstop travel to a vacation destination? Yeah they're breaking all the rules.....
Let me remind you why G4 is successful:
-Fee for priority seating
-Fee for food
-Fee for web bookings
-Fee for bags
-Significant non-aviation revenue generation through packaging
-Heavy use of satellite airports
The model is breaking all of the rules. Food used to be in the ticket. Bags used to be in the ticket. Web bookings used to be in the ticket. The pushback at the majors was not as strong as it could have been to making these changes. A time traveler from 1999 would not recognize anyone except WN in terms of amenities. These were fundamental changes to the airline business model.
It can work. I'll send you a ticket so you can see it works and you'll do a TR on it when I get into a neighborhood near you.
FlyPNS1 From United States, joined Nov 1999, 3781 posts, RR: 26 Reply 82, posted (4 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2270 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 78): They also are used to having food on the plane and not paying extra for bags.
Airlines haven't offered any signficant free meals in domestic coach for many years and many of the LCC's never have. People are pretty used to not getting food.
And while paying for bags is relatively new, it's a built in part of the check-in process. You don't have to go to a secondary vendor to check your bags.
Quoting JA (Reply 78): Are Europeans more advanced than Americans?
In terms of transportation, absolutely yes.
Quoting JA (Reply 78): These were fundamental changes to the airline business model.
But none of these changes were as fundamentally inconvenient as making people make their own connections and recheck bags and security.
Take a look at the thread about Great Lakes feeding into STL, but with no AA codeshare. The passenger numbers have completely collapsed and keep in mind there are plenty of LCC flights to connect to at STL. And Great Lakes is using dirt cheap props, not high CASM RJ's.
Quoting JA (Reply 78): A fair amount of the business travelers here on a.net constantly talk about how light they travel.
But a once a day flight from TOL to ISP isn't going to attract business travelers. It will be leisure travelers who are far more likely to check luggage.
JA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 268 posts, RR: 0 Reply 83, posted (4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2207 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 82): Take a look at the thread about Great Lakes feeding into STL, but with no AA codeshare. The passenger numbers have completely collapsed and keep in mind there are plenty of LCC flights to connect to at STL. And Great Lakes is using dirt cheap props, not high CASM RJ's.
People in those cities have complained about ZK's reliability. If you think this has anything to do with the codeshare, I have a bridge to sell you. ZK is operating fewer frequencies than planned and they are alleged to have "higher" cancellations than normal. ZK stimulated a lot of traffic at Merced and Visalia and took them to ONT with no codeshare.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 82): And Great Lakes is using dirt cheap props, not high CASM RJ's.
On a per seat basis, 50 seat jets are a little cheaper to operate (around 7-10%) than 19 seaters.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 82): But a once a day flight from TOL to ISP isn't going to attract business travelers. It will be leisure travelers who are far more likely to check luggage.
Toltommy From United States, joined Dec 2003, 2587 posts, RR: 5 Reply 84, posted (4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2079 times:
Quoting JA (Reply 58): Why does everyone except JetAmerica know this?
They don't have to worry about the size of the plane when your losses are being subsidized by SCASD grants and subsidies from airports desperate for service. Marketing consultants have told them that there are a lot of people wanting to fly TOL-EWR. Hopefully the consultants will be held accountable.
Quoting JA (Reply 60):
I've never seen a WN ad in NYC. It would not be hard to grow ISP at all if they wanted to. There are a lot of air travelers in their catchment area.
Agreed. But they've changed the business model. The focus is on big airports now, not secondary ones. I won't be surprised to see them "redeploy assets" by pulling out of some of the marginal secondary airports.
Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 61):
Well you have DTW...which is an hour or less drive from TOL or LAN.
Unfortunately, neither airport has been able to capitalize on the convenience factor. It takes a lot more time to use DTW vs either other airport. The average traveller needs to leave TOL at Noon for a 3pm departure. The amount of time you need to allow for parking, checkin, security, and walking to the gate is far greater.
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Jun 2009, 5 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
).gif){kind=small}
From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Aug 2006, 960 posts, 
From Spain, joined Dec 2007, 340 posts, 
From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 2194 posts, 
